TRPG General Chat

RevenantBacon

19:00

For example, I'm in a campaign right now where there are several Relic tier magic items (with fancy names and everything) but we have also come across some more "normal" pieces of gear with some standard enchantments and a name. Arguably they are as interesting and useful as the relics.

Victor B

I have a question about the rules as written about archers...

mprogrammer

@VictorB Or he sees ghosts that konw one else can't see and can't figure out why

Rubiksmoose

@Someone_Evil Agreed. I cleaned it out.

@KorvinStarmast Thankfully not.

goodguy5

@VictorB I likely have an answer

Victor B

@mprogrammer that does sound like a trinket

Rubiksmoose

19:01

@goodguy5 Laptop, Chrome.

RevenantBacon

But they aren't plot related

goodguy5

@Rubiksmoose I think chrome has UX functions right? to pretend it's a different device?

Rubiksmoose

@goodguy5 I think so?

Victor B

Do you guys know of Lars Anderson?

goodguy5

@Rubiksmoose yea, press f12 and click on the little phone/tablet icon

and then, really, restart

KorvinStarmast

19:03

@MikeQ Aah, that makes your PC an artificer ..

Victor B

youtube.com/watch?v=qc_z4a00cCQ Lars Anderson is an archer who tilts his arrows to curve it in such a way to shoot someone behind a wall, or behind an ally... Does D&D official rules allow for this or is there a solid rule about "straight shooting"?

MikeQ

Yes, that's what cover is for. Still possible to hit, but more difficult to do so.

Victor B

ok cool

RevenantBacon

@VictorB In Pathfinder, there's a feat you can take for doing exactly this, I believe it is called Lob Shot. In 5e, you would use the Sharpshooter feat, which gives roughly what you're looking for, but in a less deasriptive way.

Someone_Evil

Though if "completely concealed by an obstacle" a target has total cover and can't be targeted

RevenantBacon

19:09

DESCRIPTIVE. Muh spelling

Someone_Evil

@RevenantBacon You do have a window of time (2 mins?) to edit a message in chat. Click on the dropdown to the left to do so

@VictorB You may wish to look at the Arcane Archer's 7th level feature Curving Shot, which can be a (somewhat magically powered) version of this

goodguy5

@VictorB Well, that man is a wizard

Victor B

@RevenantBacon That's what I thought.
@Someone_Evil then could you target the area behind a wall and not the person?

@goodguy5 "You're a wizard Harry." "No, I'm just that damn good."

goodguy5

basically.

short answer is "no, D&D isn't built for that"

Victor B

then how about loosing more than one arrow? As Lars shows, it can make a narrow cone targeting 3 people

Helwar

19:23

I mean, you can theatrically describe an arrow weaving through the enemies

what that guy does doesn't seem really out of what D&D deems possible with just straight rolls

Someone_Evil

longer answer: share that video with your DM, ask them how they would handle it (because it is decidedly into that territory) and please don't be upset if they say no

Victor B

@Helware, arrows can curve but not weave that drastically... The Archer's Paradox actually describes how an arrow actually weaves through the air because it's curving around the bow and the momentum keeps. Though if you had a arrow loosed that goes right and left that much, it would twist and fall flat against your enemy

Sadly

goodguy5

longer answer is something to the effect of "certain people have very specific and almost freakish abilities that can't be considered within the normal bounds for a character.

And additionally, when you hit someone behind 3/4 cover, there's no reason that it can't be because you bent it like beckham

and double additionally, there's no reason that when you have multiple attacks, and hit with all 2/3/4 that you couldn't have fired those arrows at the same time.

Helwar

Well, that guy (don't remember the name) uses it a la "wanted" to shoot enemies behind cover, but what I was saying is: you can shoot enemies behind cover in D&D, it imposes disadvantadge. And if you get a certain feat, you are so good that can do it as if it were a regular shot

KorvinStarmast

@goodguy5 Doesn't Arcane Archer have a feature like that?

Helwar

19:26

it seems well within the rules

Victor B

@Someone_Evil I am not upset, nore would I be. I get it's an "ask your DM" but I find that rangers have somewhat limited magic, so I was curious if there was an addition of "trick shots" or something that would allow one to make mundane magic with a bow (aka like @goodguy5 said, "that man is a wizard")

goodguy5

@Helwar not disadvantage, +ac

Helwar

@goodguy5 my bad. The point stands though

Someone_Evil

@KorvinStarmast One of their 7th levels, mentioned it already

KorvinStarmast

@VictorB lolok up fighter archetype Arcane Archer. Xanathar's Guide to Everything. See if they have a special shot for that.

@Someone_Evil aaah, sorry, missed that chat comment.

Victor B

19:28

@goodguy5 "bent it like becham" lol

@KorvinStarmast Will do. Haven't really understood the fighter class yet to look into it, but will definitely check it out

Someone_Evil

@KorvinStarmast No worries, you now had me look at the rest of the arrow options, and Seeking Arrow is also pretty close to what is being discussed

JohnP

@mprogrammer Just something we had plotted against our DM once. We had an epic buildup to the wyrm lair, and right as we were about to enter the party collectively decided to go investigate the abandoned castle we had found a week prior. Just to see him scramble through notes. :p

goodguy5

rude lol

Victor B

@KorvinStarmast darn, now you got me wondering if I should take gloomstalker or arcane archer.

@goodguy5 I saw that happen slightly different... the DM forgot that a party member's flaw was chasing skirts and described an intreguing place behind a tavern.... the player asked "Is there wenches in the tavern?" and siderailed that whole adventure.

RevenantBacon

Hey, quick question: Do Native Outsider, like Aasimar, Rakshasa, or Undines, die of old age? I can't seem to find any actual information about their lifespans anywhere.

Helwar

19:38

Do you consider Aasimar outsiders?

Victor B

I thought Aasimar were "chosen humans"

RevenantBacon

I'm talking Pathfinder

Helwar

@VictorB I prefer to treat them as regular planetouched, but according to the rules, yeah

goodguy5

I feel like they had information, at least for aasimar.... but it's been a while

Helwar

@RevenantBacon Then my knowledge doesn't cover your question sadly

RevenantBacon

19:39

@Helwar that's OK

Victor B

VGtM says they live to about 160

RevenantBacon

That's 5E though.

Victor B

my bad

JohnP

Pathfinder Aasimar 35-70 years.

Rakshasha up to 500 years

goodguy5

@JohnP that's until they get to venerable, right?

Helwar

19:43

oh... I was halfway to reading that

JohnP

@goodguy5 Yep. Undines are middle aged at 150, max age 250+ some dice roll or another.

@RevenantBacon legacy.aonprd.com/advancedRaceGuide/ageHeightWeight.html - Note this is all Pathfinder 1e material.

Victor B

Highly opinionated question: One of the PCs I am making is a merchant half-elf who learned archery growing up. his motivations are 1. to discover what it means to be a half-elf and 2. to find what magical and mundane items there are and how they work.

His fighting style is summed up by "Shoot steady, shoot true, and take out the troublesome first" meaning he makes each shot count and pays attention where he can fit best in the group (longshot the spellcaster if needs be, or stand strategically 10ft from an enemy to give his teamate advantage).

goodguy5

pathfinder wiki says 70 + 2d20 for aasimar
ifrit 250+6d% (HOLY SMOKES)
sylph 250+6d%
undine 250+6d%
oread 250+6d%
tiefling 70 + 2d20

Victor B

@Helwar wasn't done typing and didn't want to take the attention away from RevenantBacon

JohnP

what does +6d% mean? I haven't seen that before...

goodguy5

19:45

6d100

Helwar

@VictorB The arcane archer seems underwhelming IMO. A couple of fireworks per combat and then back to straight shooting feels kinda meh

I prefer the other one

goodguy5

does "make each shot count" mean "do a lot of damage with each arrow" or "hit with each arrow"?

i.e. - would they use sharpshooter

RevenantBacon

Ah, many thanks @goodguy5

kviiri

@VictorB Maybe Kensei Monk with Longbow as Kensei weapon?

JohnP

@Helwar I was never impressed with the Arcane Archer when I played one, and gloomstalker fits better with the preemptive strike concept.

MikeQ

19:47

@VictorB Anything with a bow, really. Do you have any descriptive information other than "shoots with bow"?

RevenantBacon

@VictorB I assume this is 5e?

Victor B

@Helwar the Banishing arrows sound like an awesome crowd control...

Helwar

@MikeQ It could even be a Fighter, i dunno if manouvers work with bows, but the one that expands critical range might fit too

Victor B

@RevenantBacon All I know is 5e

Yuuki

I see nothing about this that assumes he's shooting a bow and not a digital single-lens reflex camera.

RevenantBacon

19:50

In that case, if he's going to be a travelling merchant, a Ranger might be the most thematic option. They have access to they Archery fighting style, and his ranger abilities would make it easier for him to travel from town to town safely with his wares

Victor B

@MikeQ what kind of info do you want to know? He's calm and collective, tends to calculate his actions, though is quite reserved after being banished by his father. But regardless of his brash attitude and seeming "as long as it pays" ideal, he actually cares and plays the part of "support" in the team, focusing on empowering the front to be able to keep bashing, and the spell casters to concentrate on their spells

Helwar

I just remembered arcane archer IS a fighter and my suggestion was moot. I'm dumb

MikeQ

@VictorB Nope, that doesn't narrow it down in terms of class choice. Regardless, if they want to shoot bows often, then I'd suggest either fighter or ranger, since both have access to archery fighting style.

Fighters are hard to kill, and later get many attacks per turn. Rangers have some utility magic and very specialized wilderness survival abilities.

Victor B

@MikeQ: If skills were runes he could add to his bow, (hypothetically to make it a pick-and-choose kind of system), he'd focus on what would do the most impact for the team

Though if you ask about him, I can answer if that helps better

Mark Wells

@VictorB What is a thing he would not do in combat?

Victor B

19:53

@kviiri why do you say Kensei monk?

MikeQ

Kensei monks can pick a ranged weapon and get some benefits with it. They can also expend ki points to add attack & damage bonuses to their shots.

Yuuki

@VictorB Also, monks use bows a lot.

Victor B

@MarkWells He'd never chance harming an ally, or run from a battle (though he would us Zephire Strike to get out of a bad spot and keep shooting), He'd never be the guy in the frontlines if he can help it, nore do anything to comprimize the shot

Mark Wells

Because you're describing him as calm and collected, yet brash, yet he only cares about getting paid, yet he also cares about supporting the team, yet...

MikeQ

Conceptually it does sound like he randomly picked "gruff adventurer hero" cliches from a hat. But that has very little impact on class choice.

Victor B

19:56

@Yuuki From what I read Kensai are the only monks able to use a bow as a monk weapon. Though I don't know much about them

kviiri

@VictorB You can deal extra damage per hit with your Kensei weapon (eg. a longbow), more extra damage by expending Ki, overcome non-magical weapon resistance, use ki to temporarily enhance your longbow, and later re-roll a single miss per turn. Sounds like "making every shot count", right?

goodguy5

did you answer and I missed it? does he care about hitting with every shot, or doing more damage per hit?

kviiri

This helps with both!

Helwar

@goodguy5 Sharpshooter takes care of both? Doesn't it make it easier to hit people behind cover besides you making more damage in exchange for accuracy?

Victor B

Oh sorry @goodguy5, I missed your question. He cares more about effect than damage. In other words, using a Walluping arrow might not do much more damage to a sorcerer, but it would stop them from landing shenanigans on the team.

That said, a dead enemy cannot cast a spell either,

Helwar

19:59

It feels to me like you LIKE the arcane archer

goodguy5

@Helwar fair point, but I should have said "the active ability in sharpshooter"

Helwar

and that trumps everything else. If you really like the arcane archer, I'm sure it will be useful

KorvinStarmast

@VictorB I have a massive personal bias for gloom stalker, so I am the wrong guy to ask.

Helwar

I'm a little bit lost with the gloom stalker thingy... Is it the subclass for ranger?

MikeQ

Gloom stalker is a ranger with an assassination focus. Lots of bonuses on the first round of combat. They also get rope trick.

RevenantBacon

20:03

Rope Trick is a great spell

KorvinStarmast

@Helwar Xanathar's Guide to Everything. It's a really nice kit for the Ranger.

Helwar

@MikeQ Oh I remember glancing over it and thinking: Drizzt subclass, next thing please

might need to really read it

goodguy5

It's also worth reminding that rogues get extra damage - i.e. making arrows do more damage

MikeQ

@Helwar At least it's better than the PHB ranger subclasses

RevenantBacon

@goodguy5 yeah, but they also only get one attack per round

Helwar

20:05

@MikeQ True. I always play and recommend my players to use the revised ranger though

and almost everyone I know plays the ranger for the pet. Otherwise they pick fighter with a bow :)

goodguy5

@RevenantBacon then they better..... make it count ;)

NautArch

@Helwar revised ranger hunters are damage dealing machines. Maybe even a bit too much.

RevenantBacon

:p

Victor B

@Helwar Actually it's the first I've heard of it. I just am trying to perfect who I would try to be in a D&D setting.
@MarkWells Sorry, he is sounding contraversal.

His background is that he is really kind and helpful and wants to see everyone around him reach their potencials. However, when he was about 17, he met his father for the first time, who banished the boy in fear of a scandal. Ever since, the half-elf has become quite reserved, wanting to help but fearful people will use his kindness to hurt him.

Helwar

One thing that I like about 5e is that it is mostly safe to pick any option. And it looked like you had your eye on the Arcane Archer :)

MikeQ

20:09

Ah I think I see the confusion here. Most of the folks here who know 5e understand that it's a combat centric game, and most of the class mechanics are defined in terms of their combat role. "Shoots bow" is the only factor so far with any impact on class choice, whereas all of the fluff about helping friends and meeting fathers isn't really relevant to this discussion.

Helwar

it's like when you can't decide between 2 options, and let it to chance. If the answer you get feels ok with you, then that was the one you liked. If you don't like the outcome... is that you preferred the other option!

Victor B

@Helwar My first ranger had the pet option.. it felt too cumbersome as I felt like I had to defend my pet's value to the team, and worried about them getting hurt too much.

Also I had my eye on gloomstalker, though I got curious about how to best play one.

goodguy5

I kind of want to spin up one of those questions "how do I do most damage", but I don't feel like the flak it would get.

"How to do the most damage with a single arrow (or bolt)?"

no UA, no allies, no setup, all other 1st party WotC material, no magic items

MikeQ

@goodguy5 Barbarian. Rage, then throw the arrow. Go with Zealot for better single-attack damage.

goodguy5

ha

NautArch

20:13

I had put together a fun hand crossbow fighter build with sharpshooter and crossbow expert

Dip cleric for bless to offset the -5

goodguy5

@MikeQ multiclass fighter for extra crit range?

Victor B

@MikeQ for combat mechanic, I guess "Support" would be the best descriptive. I mean, "Healer" isn't a class, but it's an understood concept... just don't know how to identify his style.

The reason I gave the backstory is that he flights like he lives.... Imagine a barbarian who was a hardy fighter yet timid as a lamb outside of battle... would feel unballanced.

Helwar

with no setup, you can't do all those things like blessing you or anything

MikeQ

"Barbarian who is timid while not raging" actually sounds like a fun concept.

ACuriousMind

Isn't that just the Hulk?

Victor B

20:15

@MikeQ it does, but rage cannot be all the time with every fight, right?

lol @ACuriousMind Now I am thinking of a barbarian who's background is as a Sage.

goodguy5

I think I had one of those....

Victor B

Or a hermit or something... trying to prove his theory to the world

goodguy5

high elf barb... I think he was a sage

Victor B

Ok, I admit... having a gnomish barbarian sage who came up with a theory he wants to prove to the world, but is seen like a quack does sounds like quite an interesting character

MikeQ

As for in-combat support roles, the martial classes (e.g. fighter, ranger, monk) are somewhat limited. Rangers (and Eldritch Knights) have spells to help, but they don't specialize in it. Then again, keep in mind that one can "support" their allies by removing enemies.

There's always the Mastermind rogue. They can use shortbows.

Mark Wells

20:18

@goodguy5 Hold on, let me get my special downvoting gloves.

goodguy5

D:

Helwar

@MikeQ be an elf and use actual bows

Victor B

@MikeQ I know, and I can think of many tweaks to make it so awesome, like a high-pitched whistling arrow, but sadly it's not actually in 5e

MikeQ

@VictorB Not in the rulebooks, no, but if you're the DM then you can just... make it up. Homebrew stuff.

Mark Wells

@VictorB Having a trick arrow that creates a distraction sounds like a good way to implement a Help action

Helwar

20:21

I'm gonna have dinner! talk to you later!

Victor B

sadly I think I found a Pathfinder page that had a nice whistling arrows and I know it's an actual historical thing.. though making it high-pitched, with the range a 60ft cone (around the arrow) and shooting it past people, (near dog whistle) would have a similar effect to a vrock's screech

Good eats @Helwar

The thing is that I could homebrew a lot, try and DM or ask my DM if I can add these in, but I feel like the best way to gain experience in my gameplay is to use the actual rules and learn to make the most of it before I play. That's why I was asking about classes. As sai

MikeQ

Ah, I thought you were the DM. If you're a player, then no, don't bring homebrew to the table without consulting the DM.

Victor B

*As said, I originally made my guy a gloomstalker because I thought it sounded like a cool, collected type of ranger who waits for the perfect shot and makes the most impact with each arrow, but I do want to understand how to make the class shine at every level. Then I learn about Arcane Archers and got worried I was trying to make one class too much like the other.

Mark Wells

@VictorB That's... one approach. I'd suggest that the best way to gain experience in your gameplay is to play the game and try stuff.

MikeQ

@VictorB Rangers get very situational abilities, so they are most useful if the campaign is limited to a certain type of environment, or most of the NPCs are of the same type of creature.

KorvinStarmast

20:28

@MikeQ The GS in our Tier Three campaign (my Half Orc Champion is 14) will disagree with you. There's a cool thing that unlocks at level 11: you get to shoot again on any miss. And he was pretty sharp in his use of spells.

Victor B

@MarkWells I think that might be what I'll have to do. I'm more of a "act, recollect and study before you go out again" kind of person, but I think I need more experience before I can try and perfect the character any more.

MikeQ

I assumed that these characters would play the low levels first

KorvinStarmast

@MikeQ Me too. Low level rangers are about as effective as Fighters, but also have spells.

I took the Medium armor Master feat so that when we got to the underground portion I could stand shoulder to shoulder with Trog's paladin for a solid martial front. But we didn't end up with a lot of dungeon time .. and I doubt that ToA is going to resurrect itself ..

MikeQ

There's no resurrection, remember?

Victor B

@MikeQ They are situational, but also seem to be a good ballence when I went to the table... You had your fighters, fighting on the front lines, your spell casters behind, a druid going nuts... but no bridge... I find rangers fill that gap... a good mid-line fighter who can keep the wizard's safer while they cast spells, and help out the fighters without abandonning the wizards

KorvinStarmast

20:31

@MikeQ heh, nice pun

MikeQ

@VictorB Fighters don't need to be frontliners. Their focus is martial weapons, whether close, reach, or ranged. The Ranger class can fit a similar role, but they split their focus with exploration and utility magic.

Victor B

In my experience, the players with fighters always played the "smart barbarian" style

KorvinStarmast

@VictorB Our higher level group had in cleric, in gloom stalker, 1 rogue, 1 Barbarian, 1 Champion. The Ranger was content to play sniper. But his spells helped us a heck of a lot.

Timely application of 8 wolves coming out of nowhere to swarm some of our enemies was kinda cool to watch.

Victor B

@KorvinStarmast that's kind of what I was thinking of going for... Can't be a healer without healing magic, but an aid none the less.

KorvinStarmast

@VictorB When I got to level 5 in ToA I took healing spirit, but we never got to see how that worked out in play. Campaign went dormant. RL issues.

MikeQ

20:35

Oh - Eldritch Knight (fighter) could also make a good sniper with some magical support. They have the feats to boost their sniping abilities, plus they get Abjuration spells.

KorvinStarmast

Heck yeah.

And they get more attacks than a Ranger if they single class it.

And Action Surge. And Second Wind.

And more feats or ASIs.

Victor B

@KorvinStarmast I heard of a sweet deal about using it out-of-battle... Cast Healing Spirit and stat a conga line through the circle. Within a minute, everyone has all their health back

KorvinStarmast

@VictorB yeah, that is a technique/exploit that some people complain about, as it renders the clericc's 2d level prayer of healing rather redundant. I think it's fine. , but I suspect that the devs had intended it for use in combat. ....

Victor B

they did

I just heard of that exploit, but it does give your party a second chance as the prayer of healing can be for when it really counts.

@MikeQ now I have to check out Eldrich Knight

KorvinStarmast

yes Prayer of Healing Up to six creatures of your choice that you can see within range each regain hit points equal to 2d8 + your spellcasting ability modifier A life cleric adds 3 more HP to that.

kviiri

20:41

Healing spirit is a weird outlier, yes, compared to the otherwise rather ineffectual (from the "I'm used to MMO healers" POV) healing in DnD 5e.

KorvinStarmast

But it takes 10 minutes, for reaons only the devs can tell us.

kviiri

@KorvinStarmast It fits quite neatly on the other end of the continuum that starts from "combat-appropriate but low-power healing" (Healing Word) and progresses towards more effective but less combat-appropriate "I just want to convert my spell slots to HP ok?" options.

With "kinda ineffective and still rather clunky in combat" Cure Wounds in between :-)

NautArch

Hexblade Archer also turns out to be a neat build

Victor B

Hexblade archer?

MikeQ

Doesn't the hexblade CHA-to-attack only apply to 1-handed weapons?

KorvinStarmast

20:48

@kviiri yes, that's a good way to describe it. I find that they were trying hard not to replicate the MMO heal bot, and did a good job of that if the table (1) uses short rests and (2) remember to use HD to restore HP.

@MikeQ I would like to answer but cannot access my ~~cheese resource~~ xanathar's at the moment

NautArch

@MikeQ improved pact weapon invocation

goodguy5

have nice day, team

Victor B

Questions: 1. Where is Hexblade Archer? and 2. is an Eldrich Weapon Bond like this? youtube.com/watch?v=ulX6K1NlCc4

@goodguy5 you too

MikeQ

Hexblade is a warlock subclass. Do you have access to some resource that lists the class features (like the PHB or DNDBeyond)? It may be tricky to pick a class option if you aren't aware of what the options are.

goodguy5

@VictorB basically. though, I think more "poof" and less "clank"

Victor B

20:54

@MikeQ hence my question and study... to find the best fit of class

@goodguy5 so one could start shooting everyone, then poof a glaive to whipe out all the minions who suround you

But no thor's hammer

Odd, the Eldrich Knight doesn't get Eldrich Blast...

kviiri

@KorvinStarmast No disagreement there. The dedicated healer is, game-design -wise, hard to pull off well and has a variety of problems.

KorvinStarmast

@VictorB Eldritch Blast is a Warlock cantrip. EK was, IMO, oddly named.

Rubiksmoose

1

Q: Is there anything after exhaustion

In Pathfinder 2e if you miss a nights sleep you become Fatigued and you can get rid of this with a nights sleep. But after this I can't find any other consequences for missing even longer periods; can you just keep missing sleep forever and only remain "Fatigued"?

pathfinder-2e

KorvinStarmast

@kviiri IMO, their decision to go that way was a good one. Does not stick the cleric with "heal bot" role.

Rubiksmoose

"Anything after exhaustion?" As an adult I would love to know this lol

kviiri

21:03

@KorvinStarmast Yeah sure. It's not perfect but it's much better than straight-up following the dedicated healer trope.

KorvinStarmast

@kviiri I got to play heal bot in a WoW set of raids over a year ago, and I didn't mind it, but the twitchers who were the DPS and tank would run off and then demand that I guess where they were headed. SO, I once again uninstalled WoW from my PC.

@kviiri yep; major cleric abily from original game: Turn Undead. I love how Channel divinity allows some more customization beyond that.

RevenantBacon

Hexblades get their +Cha bond to their Pact Weapon if they select Pact of the Blade

MikeQ

@KorvinStarmast Healer characters in D&Dish games have a similar role problem

RevenantBacon

And they can have any weapon as a Pact Weapon with the Improved Pact Weapon invocation

KorvinStarmast

@MikeQ Are you referring to ... 13th age?

kviiri

21:05

My main gripe with how healing works in 5e is that there are a few oddly powerful combos (eg. Healing Spirit outside combat) and apart from that, healing's main deal is bringing KO'd characters back to single hp (or practically so)

MikeQ

Haven't played a healer in 13th age, no

KorvinStarmast

(Not sure what you mean by D&Dish absent other context ...)

MikeQ

D&D and games like D&D that also focus on turn-based combat and have healing mechanics

RevenantBacon

@kviiri This is an issue endemic to D&D since its foundation. Healing is ALWAYS less effective than damage.

The only possible exception being Channeling from Clerics

KorvinStarmast

@RevenantBacon I will edit your comment to read "Healing is ALWAYS less effective than preventing damage"

RevenantBacon

21:07

Well, both are true

kviiri

@RevenantBacon 4e might disagree. But I don't really think it's an issue, really --- you don't get to play a (strategically viable) full-time healer but maybe the game is just plain better without them.

RevenantBacon

4e was badly designed though. They tried to emulate an MMO

KorvinStarmast

My grognard inner voice says "good tactics often makes redundant the need for healing" :-)

RevenantBacon

^^^^^^^^^^^

Victor B

I still don't get why a necromancer doesn't get "spare the dying"

kviiri

21:08

@RevenantBacon Not at all. It's quite well designed for its purpose, IMO.

NautArch

It's not in their interest

Hasten the dying...

KorvinStarmast

@VictorB Necromancers aren't all about healing and saving lives, they are about using and abusing the dead

RevenantBacon

Because they don't want you to live. Otherwise, how will they do necromancy to you?

KorvinStarmast

^^^

Victor B

@KorvinStarmast hahaha

RevenantBacon

21:09

"I didn't lose my medical license for nothing" cracks knuckles

KorvinStarmast

Yeah, the lawyers fees were atrocious, and I still lost the case!

Victor B

But then why isn't Spare the Dying part of another class? like radiant magic?

MikeQ

@RevenantBacon Not even Channel Energy (unless they've really specialized in it). Usually a well-placed spell (control, buff, or debuff) is a better option.

Victor B

and why can't wizards learn it anyways?

KorvinStarmast

It's a cleric cantrip;

A wizard can take Magic Initiate if they want spare the dying

Victor B

21:10

@KorvinStarmast but classed as a necromancer skill

kviiri

4e does have a few points of abundantly bad design (see how its numbers work prior to MM3 reforms) but it keeps getting hate mainly because "it doesn't do what I want it to do" rather than "it doesn't do what it's designed to do well".

KorvinStarmast

@VictorB Nope. Not classed as a necromancer skill.

You are confusing schools of magic with class skills, it appears.

Victor B

apperantly, DndBeyond says "Necromancy" so I thought it meant it's studdied by necromancers

MikeQ

In D&D 5e, each spell belongs to a "school" (category) of spells. This matters to wizards and almost nobody else. Spare the dying is part of the necromancy school.

KorvinStarmast

Spare the Dying
Necromancy cantrip
Casting Time: 1 action
Range: Touch
Components: V, S
Duration: Instantaneous
You touch a living creature that has 0 hit points. The
creature becomes stable. **This spell has no effect on undead
or constructs**

@VictorB Recommendation: Read up on Schools of Magic

kviiri

21:14

Anyway. 4e has reasonably powerful healers, but does have a few necessary caveats to prevent them from becoming tedious combat prolongers: healing is very limited per encounter and the main healing is done with Minor Actions, leaving the healing character also free to do other things.

That said, the badly-scaling numbers of 4e do prolong combats to preposterous lengths at high levels before the numbers rework, healer or no, so that point is kinda moot.

RevenantBacon

I think it's because Spare the Dying is (in a roundabout way) looked at as a healing spell, and healing magic is generally restricted from being available to Wizards.

Victor B

@MikeQ so a necromancer isn't "someone who studies in the school of necromancy?

@KorvinStarmast Reading up on and understanding is the issue. Hence my confusion

MikeQ

Yes, there is a wizard subclass that focuses on spells with the Necromancy school. However, they are still limited to spells on the wizard spell list. Spare the dying is not on the wizard spell list, so they don't get access.

KorvinStarmast

@VictorB They specialize in it, but all wizards can study it. no prohibited schools. Wizards are generalists, even though they do specialise a bit.

kviiri

(Note: the "schools" are not places of learning, they're classification on types of magic. Similar to the expression "school of thought" etc)

Victor B

21:18

well that clears up a lot of confusion... I thought you had to pick a school and study... like houses in Harry Potter

kviiri

Not at all no :) luckily your friendly neighborhood ESL gang is here to realize potential points of confusion

Victor B

I seriously feel foolish...

kviiri

It happens to the best of us

Victor B

can someone explain the spell id insinuation?

I cannot find info on it

kviiri

Hm, what's that?

MikeQ

21:25

It's from one of the expansion books, or possibly Unearthed Arcana.

NautArch

Pretty sure it's from acquisitions incorporated

Victor B

it is from UA and keeps poppinng up on DndBeyond but it won't tell me what it is... I am getting very curious

dndbeyond.com/spells/id-insinuation-ua

MikeQ

It's a 1st level spell and seems incredibly powerful. Not surprising for UA stuff. Your DM may not allow it.

nitsua60

@VictorB It's as old as 1e psionics, that's all I know :shrug:

Victor B

@MikeQ I don't expect to bring UA to the table, but I just wanna know what it does

kviiri

21:29

I'm off to bed. Good night everyone, don't forget to love yourselves and your friends

Victor B

more just to know than to use

NautArch

@VictorB You unleash a torrent of conflicting desires in the mind of one creature you can see within range, impairing its ability to make decisions. The target must succeed on a Wisdom saving throw or be incapacitated. At the end of each of its turns, it takes 1d12 psychic damage, and it can then make another Wisdom saving throw. On a success, the spell ends on the target.

Victor B

@kviiri have a wonderful night

MikeQ

It's like Hideous Laughter but strictly better, since it adds free 1d12 damage per round, affects any creature, and the target doesn't get a new save if they're attacked while the spell is active.

Victor B

Wow that's powerful. I could see how that would be harmful to a wizard... or tell a Warforged "This sentence is False"

I kinda wish there was a spell like Hidious Laughter that affected a whole group... I mean, in battle, it would be hard for a villain to command a great army who's all laughing and rolling on the floor and out of battle, "Your rogue bumps into a noble and sneers. The Cheif of the guards approaches, gathering attention. Soon, a whole squadron is there, ready to kill all who ally with this rogue. You, a bard, goes in and tells a merry tail, causing all the guards to laugh uncontrollably"

RevenantBacon

21:40

So basically Hideous Laughter, Mass?

NautArch

Hypnotic pattern is close

RevenantBacon

I could see that as like a level 4ish spell

Victor B

@RevenantBeacon Yes

RevenantBacon

LMAO I'm a lightbulb.

you got me with a bEacon

Victor B

Sorry I clicked on your name and tried to write yes... that was the result.

Do you get hurt from your own Conjure barrage? From what I get, you throw an item or piece of ammo into the air and hundreds come crashing down in a 60ft cone around you... but you're right there, in the middle... so do you get hurt? And can you throw Arcane's Fire up to make a 60ft circle of fire around you?

Sorry, was that a stupid question?

Someone_Evil

21:54

You may want to check out the spell shape rules (PHB 204)

MikeQ

I suspect that most users here aren't in the chat full-time. Folks are free to ask questions here, but the chat is not a Q&A help desk. The mainsite is really the place for Q&A.

Someone_Evil

A cone is from you, excluding the origin (ie. you) if you wish

Victor B

@MikeQ Sorry I didn't mean to sound rude.

MikeQ

No worries, it was not rude.

Victor B

@Someone_Evil the spell reads out like the cone starts from the ammo point in the air on top of you and not from you itself... making a vertical cone, from my understanding, rather than a cone like a breath weapon

Someone_Evil

21:59

I think maybe you should ask that question on main

Victor B

ok I will. Thanks

NautArch

I'd suggest searching first

Someone_Evil

I couldn't find one, but searching first is always a good idea

NautArch

Search engines search better than the site itself

Someone_Evil

I find the site search to be quite reasonable, but I do a lot of it by tag filters and scanning

Medix2

22:12

I just looked for questions with "barrage" in the title and spells

Victor B

I did look, but mostly found "use barrage with"

Someone_Evil

Derp, found a resolution for you as you posted. Writing you an answer

Victor B

aww thank you @Someone_Evil

Victor B

22:58

Sorry, that was mean of me

doppelgreener

@RevenantBacon from my perspective (I played D&D 4e and enjoyed it): it's a game where they just said "alright, D&D does tactical combat well, so we're going to focus on that and eschew almost everything else." they did an extraordinarily good job. D&D 5e has picked up some (not all) of its best lessons and design innovations, albeit without acknowledging D&D 4e as the source.

It does a bad job at doing some things people would have wanted from other editions, but that is because they specifically opted not to do those things at all.

They picked a design focus & razor tuned the system for that and did admirably. That makes it a good game for people who want what they made it for (excellent tactical combat) but not a good game for people who are in it for other stuff.

Carcer

4e gets a lot of excrement for "trying to be an MMO" but honestly that's almost entirely down to it explicitly codifying class categories that had been implicit in earlier D&D anyway, which archetypes traditional MMOs were based on

Yuuki

@doppelgreener I play D&D so I can get into heated discussions about what D&D is good for and whether other systems accomplish things that D&D is lackluster at.

Carcer

if it hadn't said "rangers are strikers and fighters are defenders" or w/e nobody would have been making WoW jokes

doppelgreener

@Carcer Yeah and that was actually really helpful for players interacting with it. It codified those categories, built with them in mind, and used them to give players an idea of what they needed in terms of composition and what they'd be able to do based on the class they picked.

BESW

23:08

Yeah, as someone who played 4e and WoW simultaneously, the mechanical similarities are quite superficial.

Carcer

I'll happily say that as someone who didn't like 4e for other reasons

Yuuki

They match, all the way down to the horrible writing!

Carcer

though I have been getting better as I get older at accepting mechanics that prioritise streamlined/ease of play over more granular world representation

NautArch

@VictorB No worries! It was a bad closure - I misunderstood the question.

My apologies to you

Helwar

23:56

@BESW didn't people compare it to wow only because it "enforced" roles?

also, hi I'm back!

BESW

@Helwar That's part of it, but there were other elements. Like taking the "1/day' concept and applying it to all powers in units of at-will, per-encounter, and per-day. Many people were reminded of WoW-style power cooldowns.

Helwar

I can see that

4e had a very cool version of combat that I kinda miss

BESW

For high-complexity tactical combat with reliably predictable interactions between features, it's hard to beat.

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