TRPG General Chat

Jin Long

12:00 AM

Right, and not so easily resolved.

@Medix2 there's tons of records about Roman life, and none mentions RPGs

trogdor

Well

Jin Long

Likewise, for later periods, some of which have even more records.

trogdor

Not having it in any records doesn't mean they didn't do it at all

Helwar

jokes apart, everyone does "rpg" when they are little, as in, simulate you are someone, like a fighter or a leader or whatever, while playing. I guess they didn't think that was worth any more consideration as an adult

trogdor

Hmmm

Medix2

12:02 AM

Could have been "adults shouldn't do child things" or could have been that Roman culture devalued the ability to put yourself in someone else's shoes? I can go ask some ancient Rome scholars if you'd like

Jin Long

The article was written by someone familiar with Roman scholarship

Helwar

@Medix2 please do, ask them if they can come and say hi while you're at it

Jin Long

It was actually a general article about all sorts of stuff that could have been invented much earlier and didn't.

trogdor

So what take does it have about it then?

Medix2

Oh there's an article? Does it explain why they didn't play RPGs?

user15026

12:03 AM

I feel like any assumption of any ancient culture "never did x" is faulty because we can't know. We won't ever account for all the people

trogdor

That was the original start of the topic XD

Jin Long

Not exactly. It just acknowledges that folks tend to repeat the same pattern and don't take up new ideas.

Another example were some pretty simple improvements in weaving techniques.

Helwar

@Ash well there is an implied "mostly"

user15026

I strongly dislike when we go "oh yes us modern people are the only ones who did blah blah" when like...how do you define RPG?

Jin Long

The ancient culture isn't the major point. We also know there was no culture of RPGs in 19th century England, for example, which is far from ancient.

trogdor

12:05 AM

@Ash i agree with this to a certain extent, the only caveat i would add is if someone wrote something down you can at least assume that was informed by thier personal opinion

Helwar

brb

Jin Long

There's no record of RPG as a phenomenon before late 20th century.

user15026

How are we defining RPG as a thing?

Jin Long

You could speculate that they still existed despite zero evidence, but that's pretty tenuous.

trogdor

But the lack of writing about Rpgs kinda only informs us of a missing area that may or may not mean they didn't have them

Jin Long

12:06 AM

@Ash this sort of skepticism doesn't seem very fruitful.

user15026

Maybe they just didn't think it important to record? I mean...a lot of average everyday stuff didn't get recorded.

Jin Long

There's no record of RPG by a reasonable definition.

user15026

@JinLong does it need to be?

Jin Long

Tons of everyday stuff got recorded for multiple periods of history.

trogdor

I mean

Jin Long

12:08 AM

We know a ton about the last few centuries, from sources like personal diaries and other written records. Including some of the most mundane details.

trogdor

I've only ever written about an RPG I've played in places like this

Jin Long

We also know what games they played. That's how we know the history of Chess, Whist, etc.

trogdor

They didn't have internet spaces, or other incentives to record things that didn't seem important

user15026

Mmmkay sure.

Medix2

Wait, why would they record RPGs at all?

Helwar

12:09 AM

the resolution of this riddle sure is taking long to come to the light :P

Jin Long

They recorded tons of of other stuff. People kept diaries.

trogdor

@Medix2 that's kinda what I'm saying

user15026

I'm just gonna let this go, I'm too brain fuzzy to articulate why I don't like how much assumptions are being made by this kind of generalized thing.

trogdor

XD

Jin Long

Even works of literature are very useful. Plenty of novels include mentions of parties of people playing Whist, for instance.

BESW

12:10 AM

Absence of evidence isn't evidence of absence, but it's also important to remember that even today things that we call roleplaying games can look nothing like D&D.

user15026

Also that, yes.

trogdor

Yeah

Medix2

What if Roman RPGs were just normal every-day life scenarios with normal people and we've mistaken RPGs for actual events :p

Jin Long

Fair, but then you need evidence of something that is an RPG, even if it's not D&D.

Also, conspicuous absence of evidence in history can serve as evidence of absence.

It's not absolute, but nothing in history is.

user15026

Again, depending on how you define it, I bet you can get massively different answers on when they first were a thing.

user15026

12:12 AM

goes back to waffles and Voyager

Jin Long

Like, nobody mentions the Brits didn't invade Russia. It could have happened, and all records mysteriously destroyed, etc. Just extremely, extremely unlikely.

So in history, absence of evidence certainly serves to some extent as evidence of absence.

Mark Wells

@Medix2 The assassination of Julius Caesar? A really intense LARP.

Medix2

@MarkWells I think we're on to something here

Jin Long

Romans were hardcore about their LARP. Maybe the whole empire was one big LARP?!

Mark Wells

And Brutus himself is in on it! Oh gods, what an awful twist.

Jin Long

12:13 AM

Tons of sex and violence and depravity, so clearly recognizable as a modern LARP :D

BESW

You're leaning really hard on an unstated definition of an activity that's notoriously impossible to define, so... yeah, I'm gonna go make myself a burrito.

Jin Long

Anyway, it's an interesting question. I personally think about the type of changes to our mindset that allowed RPGs to develop.

Medix2

Or undevelop. For all we know RPGs were around before the Romans

Jin Long

@BESW again, we have TONS of records of other activities, including various games being played.

If RPGs existed as a phenomenon the way they do now, we'd have some historical evidence of it.

user15026

@BESW oooh, whatcha gonna put in the burrito?

Medix2

12:15 AM

I don't know the history of philosophy but I'd immediately go looking at how different cultures value the ability to put oneself in another's shoes

@Ash Another burrito is the optimal choice. Burrito-ception or bust

Jin Long

I mean, they had theatre so they clearly understood the concept :)

Medix2

inb4 the plays were actually just RPG transcripts

Mark Wells

@JinLong "Roll for initiative, suckers." -- Julius Caesar, when crossing the Rubicon

Jin Long

Except it wasn't interactive, creative storytelling, which is crucial.

Medix2

Not every culture allows for that, btw

Jin Long

12:17 AM

WDYM?

Medix2

As somebody who has studied cultural methods of storytelling, there are cultures where you simply do not tell stories.

trogdor

I've always thought of theatre and RPGS as mostly the same thing myself

Medix2

Where only certain individuals are even allowed to storytell.

Jin Long

@Medix2 interesting, examples?

Medix2

Granted, that's not Roman culture, but still, something to keep in mind

BESW

12:18 AM

@Medix2 Lots of theatrical traditions are inherently interactive and improvisational, and have been for a very very long time! Just not many of the ones we focus on in Western theater spaces.

trogdor

@JinLong in Japan women couldn't be in theater

Jin Long

@trogdor also, in England for much of history, but that's not quite what I asked about.

trogdor

Heck i think it was like that in a lot of places in Europe

user15026

Again, this is all kinda moot without a clear idea of what we mean by RPG and how we decide what counts

Medix2

@JinLong A number of the Native American and Indigenous Fijian cultures had elected or inherited storytellers whose entire role was to create and produce stories, which was (is) a privilege exclusively given to them

user15026

12:19 AM

@Medix2 and also there are often restrictions on who gets told the stories and how, and so on and so forth

trogdor

@JinLong i thought you were asking about exclusion in storytelling? That's what that all was..... ?

Jin Long

Well, it was an article in a publication, so I'm pretty sure if there was clear historical evidence of any actual RPG-like activity, about a thousand scholars would jump on the "well ackshually" button

user15026

I think that's a pretty big logic leap.

Helwar

can we assume the premise of the article "romans didn't have RPGs" is true? And debate on the why instead of arguing about the premise? xD

Medix2

I think they're saying an RPG is at least "interactive, creative storytelling"

Helwar

12:21 AM

I mean, to go forward on the conversation and all that :P

Jin Long

@Medix2 interesting, I also bet the society wasn't very open to folks fantasizing in general

@Helwar yeah, that's a far more interesting position

Mark Wells

@Medix2 I think the piece that's missing from that definition is the existence of game mechanics.

Medix2

Now I wanna know if we have records of Greek/Roman board games...

Jin Long

I'm not sure if game mechanics are so important. If they played freeform, that would be RPG.

@Medix2 historygames.it/en/roman-board-game

Mark Wells

@JinLong Maybe, or not, depending on your definition. But if there are no mechanics then it's basically impossible after the fact to distinguish it from theater / improv storytelling

Jin Long

12:23 AM

I general, in a discussion, if someone brings up an idea, it's not very interesting to start nitpicking at it with extreme skepticism so you can't make a single step because "that's a huge leap yo"

Helwar

my point exactly xD

Medix2

Assuming the premise is true... hmmmmmm, did Romans allow for other activities that involved the non-aggressive non-competitive collective endeavor of men?

Helwar

go on with the debate, it seems reasonable to set that even if they DID have RPGs, was not generalized enough to having survived the passing of time

Jin Long

@MarkWells if a bunch of people gathered together, and played out a scenario interactively with a gamemaster, I would call that an RPG.

BESW

@JinLong I play GMless RPGs a lot.

Helwar

12:24 AM

@JinLong even without a gamemaster, depending on how they played

user15026

@JinLong what about games who don't need a GM?

user15026

There are lots of those.

Jin Long

I don't really know GMless RPGs, I'm old school :)

I know games like Avalon

Helwar

@BESW can I get a few suggestions about that? I'm kinda interested in trying some with my group but only know of one

Jin Long

I think they might have had some of that? Social deducation games

user15026

12:25 AM

There are lots of RPGs that don't follow the D&D etc formal model.

Mark Wells

@JinLong And if they wrote down the story of that time where it turned out the king of Thebes was married to his mother, and he gouged his own eyes out and it was totally hardcore, it would be hard to tell that from what we actually have.

BESW

@Helwar Off the top of my head: Bell Songs, Together Amongst the Stars, Cozy Town, A Penny For My Thoughts, Dog Eat Dog, Space Goblins, Lovecraftesque...

user15026

That's why I was asking how that was decided

Helwar

@BESW Thanks I took note, will check on them :)

Jin Long

@MarkWells hm? that play survived, so we know it's a play

I think the question becomes more interesting if we consider GM-less RPGs too.

user15026

12:27 AM

Well, we know someone wrote it down as a play.

Mark Wells

@JinLong (annoying skeptic mode) you actually think that was a play, originally?

Jin Long

@MarkWells I'm not an expert, though I did study a bit. Some plays probably have some facts laced with (typically heavy) fantasy.

Helwar

cancel your suspension of disbelieve guys, buy into the premise

BESW

@Helwar Do: Pilgrims of the Flying Temple, Microscope, Terrorsaur... and that's not even including all the single-player games like We Forest Three.

Jin Long

For instance, last I heard, scholar consensus is that something like The Trojan War really did happen.

Of course then Homer embellished it with Gods and Superheros.

Medix2

12:29 AM

Did Rome have cooperative non-physically-intensive games?

Jin Long

In a way, it's like some director would make an Alternative History film of WWII, and that would be the only surviving record :D

BESW

@Helwar Seriously we aren't being deliberately contrary, the definitions and assumptions being used to make these claims are actively opposed to our lived experience with TRPGs.

Helwar

@JinLong regular Heroes

Mark Wells

@Helwar I'm trying! SO.

Jin Long

@Helwar have you read the Iliad? Achilles was definitely a super hero

He even had supernatural powers.

user15026

12:29 AM

@Helwar the premise is making a lot of assumptions that aren't true about RPGs as I play them, so.

Helwar

@BESW I know!!! Not blaming anyone. I guess I have an easier time just disconnecting that red light that says: NO!

Mark Wells

We know that Classical Western culture had the activity of making up stories, and of a group of people acting them out.

Jin Long

The Iliad really reminds me of "300" compared to the actual battle of Thermopylae.

Mark Wells

And that they played games.

Jin Long

Right, but afaik the RPG connection wasn't made until very recently.

Notice that throughout this history, the role of the author (the "maker of stories") was somewhat privileged.

user15026

12:31 AM

Yes, but again, just because it didn't have a formal name til xyz doesn't mean it didn't happen

Mark Wells

@JinLong Well there was that thing the Bronte sisters did, but that's also fairly recent.

Helwar

@JinLong Hero was kinda the word they used for demigods, so the word "superhero" is a new-ish thing, and they turned the word "hero" into "person that takes action to help others" instead of "I'm just awesome"

user15026

@JinLong for formally recorded stories, sure

BESW

The original presentation of the article (which I think remains uncited?) claimed that TRPGs are predicated on resources like pens, paper, and dice. I play a ton of TRPGs that don't use those. I've also seen a lot of attempts to define TRPGs and they all fall short by being either too broad and include things that people would generally agree are not, or too narrow and exclude things that people would generally agree are. So the premise is built on shifting soil to begin with.

Jin Long

Right, but you need to present evidence it happened, that would make an interesting argument.

@MarkWells interesting, what did they do?

user15026

12:32 AM

@JinLong I don't need to, to argue with the premise itself not being definitive

BESW

Because, well. I've played ritual TRPGs that would be right at home alongside rituals that are thousands of years old.

Jin Long

@Helwar "superhero" is basically a modern term for what someone like Achilles was.

@BESW sure, I actually mentioned freeform shortly after, which doesn't require any technology at all beyond speech.

Helwar

well, was Achilles a Hero from a modern standard? Was he selfless? More like an anti-hero i think...

Mark Wells

@BESW Like a lot of things, "RPG" is a centered rather than bounded set. It's also very polycentric, given the many overlapping communities that do this activity.

Helwar

but I'm going on a tangent (I particularly like the tangent, but it's still a deviation from the issue )

Jin Long

12:33 AM

@Helwar the idea that heroes must be selfless is kinda new :)

BESW

@JinLong I've done some reading into that; there's an epistemological chasm between modern concepts of heroism and ancient Greek understanding of the same, which makes that kind of connection interesting... but tenuous and shallow, at best.

user15026

@MarkWells simple English please?

Helwar

@JinLong that's what I am saying

Jin Long

I'm not sure if we can't go on tangents here :D

Mark Wells

@JinLong I'll try to find the article. If I succeed, I'll tag you.

Jin Long

12:34 AM

@Helwar fair, though I don't know if it's even universal.

Or really that interesting to consider that heroes "should be selfless".

It seems kinda shallow and blatantly self-serving to me.

Helwar

@JinLong Modern heroes are! Reluctantly or not, they are selfless. Otherwise you have a villain or an anti-hero, depending on their actions

BESW

A group of people agreeing to play-act as if they are other people, without a set script, is very very old.

Jin Long

"Please boys, notice how we all praise those who are selfless. Be selfless! Conscript! Fight for king and country!"

Mark Wells

@Ash Sorry, not trying to create confusion. Whether something is an RPG tends to be defined in practice by how much it resembles other things that are believed to be RPGs. Depending where in the community you are, those reference points are different.

Jin Long

@BESW do we have much evidence for that? especially the "deviate from script creatively as a chief goal" part?

Also, "creating a story together" part.

BESW

12:36 AM

In many cultures it seems to originate from rituals for negotiating and expressing spiritual/social connections and reifying abstractions.

Jin Long

There were certainly plays, and just festivals where people played as mythical / historical figures, and some of that was somewhat freeform.

BESW

"Ritual" does not mean "scripted" and often these kinds of activities were about discovering new things through spontaneous interactions.

Jin Long

But it's still not the fundamental idea of sitting together to create a story for fun.

It has some of the elements, but still not the same activity.

user15026

@JinLong that's a very shallow view of RPGs

user15026

And of history.

BESW

12:38 AM

...you're changing the definition every time we come back to it. I'm out.

Jin Long

I don't know if the goal of this discussion is to establish a winner? :)

Helwar

I don't think trying to define RPGs is gonna get you anywhere @JinLong :)

Jin Long

Why not? It's an interesting question.

When I look at something like a festival where a bunch of folks play gods and heroes to amuse the crowd, it doesn't look like an RPG to me.

I'm trying to break down why that is, exactly.

Mark Wells

@JinLong Again I'll mention the lack of game mechanics.

Helwar

what you can do is: For this article, the definition of RPGs is this. There might be others, but this is what we are using for now. Also, we have no proves of them playing them so we assume they didn't

user15026

12:40 AM

@JinLong so you wouldn't think any sort of LARP or medieval reenactment counts, whereas others do might.

Jin Long

@MarkWells that's certainly one element that didn't exist, but again, if a bunch of greeks sat together to create an interactive story, I'd call it an RPG.

user15026

@Helwar right, except we are trying to frame challenge that idea of RPG being the only way this could be a thing.

MikeQ

If you draw the roots of RPGs back to tabletop wargaming, then the activity is actually very very old

user15026

@JinLong how can you say they didn't?

user15026

What we have of recorded history is...very very sparse.

Mark Wells

12:41 AM

@JinLong Yes, but you don't know that that's what they're doing until they record the mechanics for deciding what direction the story goes

Helwar

Yeah I know, but if you say: Romans didn't play RPGs!!!! is very different to: Romans didn't play this kind of RPGs

Jin Long

@MikeQ like chess? sure, but I think we can all agree that there's quite a leap from something like chess to D&D

Well, if you guys have any evidence of RPGs played before say 1950, please do present it.

user15026

@JinLong again, we need to know how you are deciding what counts, first!

Helwar

I don't, don't wait for my contribution there

MikeQ

Chess isn't really tabletop wargaming. I was referring more to Chainmail, tabletop war simulations, and other predecessors to Gygax's first products

Jin Long

12:42 AM

@MarkWells why not? again, classic novels are full of descriptions of a bunch of people playing Whist together, or other card games, also discussing the game.

MikeQ

i.e., Learning military strategy and tactics by simulating a war, using model soldiers and sets of rules. It was both practical and a hobby.

user15026

@JinLong if we count tabletop war gaming, that was like...early 1900s

Jin Long

If RPGs were played widely at any point, we'd have a record of the same sort of group playing them, mechanics or not.

@MikeQ I agree it could be seen as a precursor in some ways, but it's just a precursor.

Mark Wells

@JinLong Novels are Age of Print; it's an unimaginably huge increase in the level of recorded detail about daily life, compared to, say, medieval romances.

Jin Long

A general doing a battle simulation is still far from a modern RPG.

user15026

12:44 AM

@JinLong yes but they are also generally also about..

user15026

One small subset of people.

BESW

Murder mystery game

Murder mystery games are generally party games in which one of the partygoers is secretly playing a murderer, and the other attendees must determine who among them is the criminal. In some styles of game, the murderer may be aware that they are the killer and in other games the murderer discovers this along with the other participants. Murder mystery games may involve the actual 'murders' of guests throughout the game, or may open with a 'death' and have the rest of the time devoted to investigation. Murder mystery games may also refer to public performances in venues for events, team building...

Jin Long

@MarkWells there's a ton more records since then, for sure, but we still have records from Greece, Rome, etc.

I already linked a page describing several board games we know they played.

user15026

@JinLong small amounts, from specific types of People, who only kept what they tphught was important, and can hardly define any sort of never.

BESW

The examples I know of from before then, are linked to cultures and sacred spaces that I don't feel comfortable bringing to this conversation.

Jin Long

12:45 AM

@BESW that's a good example, but also modern: first one is from 1935

user15026

We have no active record based on a very narrow definition, perhaps, but again, we haven't settled on what that even is.

user15026

@JinLong you did ask for pre 1950s...

Jin Long

Nitpicking is your main debate strategy I see :)

BESW

@JinLong You asked for examples from before 1950, and then rejected an example from 1935. That does not seem to be engaging in good faith.

user15026

No, it was by your rules as stated.

MikeQ

12:47 AM

I could be wrong, but the earliest evidence are prehistoric fossils depicting velociraptors arguing around a table and pointing at polyhedral rocks

BESW

You've been shifting the goalposts for the whole conversation.

Jin Long

@BESW I acknowledged it. but the primary discussion isn't about 1950 give or take 20 years. it's about centuries before.

Helwar

wouldn't it be easier to find the article en question and see wether the author had a definition of RPG in mind or not?

Glazius

@JinLong Do these classic novels describe parties?

BESW

@Helwar No link has been forthcoming.

user15026

12:48 AM

@JinLong that is not what you asked for.

Jin Long

@Glazius sure. Tons of them.

Helwar

@BESW I know, that's why I ask

user15026

@JinLong usually of one particular class of people, though.

Jin Long

Even historical novels like War and Peace which try to present historical events, mostly do it through individual stories.

So they give us a very good and often detailed picture of the lives of these individuals.

Granted, these were often of particular class, but not always (e.g. Dickens)

Mark Wells

@JinLong Found it.

Jin Long

12:50 AM

@MarkWells very interesting! so from skimming, it's basically a fantasy world they built together?

user15026

...you do realise that the literary canon, as we have kept it, was very carefully curated based on what certain parts of society deemed worth keeping, and were able to keep in any sort of meaningful safety and importance, yes?

Glazius

@JinLong Well, that's LARPing. You don't go to a party as your whole humanity, you go as your party self. There are topics that aren't discussed, outcomes you shouldn't expect. The rulebooks usually had "Etiquette" somewhere in the title.

Jin Long

So it's sort of like Emily Brontë and Anne Brontë were GMs, preparing a campaign :)

BESW

There are acknowledged TRPGs, like Microscope, in which the creation of the setting is, itself, the game.

Jin Long

@Glazius by that standard, almost every social interaction is LARPing :)

Mark Wells

12:51 AM

@Ash Well, if you're talking Classical literature, it's a mix of carefully curated and very randomly selected via what was lucky enough to survive.

Jin Long

Another comment I have is that probably somewhere, there were kids engaging in (effectively) fantasy roleplay

Glazius

@JinLong Yes, that's called "sociability".

Jin Long

I think even I have done it as a kid

However, the concept of adults doing it didn't exist as far as I can tell.

Hot RPG Questions

12

Q: How to guide my players into realizing they have multiple options available for an encounter?

For my next session with my PCs, I'm planning to have them witness an attack on an NPC that's intended to hook them the adventure. The plan is for the party to encounter his daughter, who also has a target painted on her back. I want the players to be making choices throughout the adventure, whet...

MikeQ

Lacking evidence doesn't mean that a phenomenon did not exist

Jin Long

12:53 AM

In the case of kids, that is easier to believe.

Mark Wells

@BESW And here's the centered-set-ness of the concept: I don't recognize Microscope as quite being an RPG, because my constellation of reference points is a little different from yours.

Jin Long

I bet there were Roman kids role-playing parts of the Trojan war.

Yeah, personally if it's just preparing the campaign, I'd say that's distinct from playing it.

And I say that as a former GM who used to love preparing campaigns :)

MikeQ

For all we know, Homer's writings were just a compilation of campaign settings

BESW

@JinLong European tournaments were often staged with historical themes like "We're all Roman soldier.s"

Jin Long

@BESW interesting, do you have a link about it?

BESW

12:55 AM

Try googling "historical reenactment."

The Romans did it in grand fashion.

Jin Long

Well, yeah, also in the Gladiator arena, but still not quite the same thing :)

BESW

Why not?

user15026

Can you please try to explain what counts by your definition?

Jin Long

Re-enacting a battle is maybe LARPing a bit? But quite different from a group of people sitting together, each playing a distinct character, and building a story together.

user15026

But that's what they are doing!

Helwar

12:57 AM

I think this is going nowhere

Jin Long

@MarkWells thanks for the Gondal link, really interesting!

user15026

If I play an RPG based on a WWII battle and I just happen to co it with pen and dice instead of in a field in fancy dress, does that count?

user15026

Why does that count and not the other?

MikeQ

Only if you are sitting, apparently

user15026

Okay, I will sit in the field.

BESW

12:58 AM

@MarkWells I agree; TRPGs are better defined as a word cloud than a strict definition, which makes claims of "no TRPGS here" almost impossible to support.

Jin Long

If all you do is reenact storming the beaches of Normandy, with no plot, no story, and no significant deviations from the historical events - then yes, I'd say you're missing many of the elements of modern RPGs.

user15026

...what.

MikeQ

I have played enough linear adventure path campaigns to disagree

Jin Long

Also, no distinct characters in any meaningful sense. No personalities or free interactions to speak of. etc

BESW

yeeeah, no. That doesn't describe my understanding of TRPGs or historical reenactments.

user15026

12:59 AM

What are the elements then that are so important?

user15026

@JinLong my local medieval faire would beg to differ.

Transcript for