TRPG General Chat

Delioth

16:07

Glad to see pathfinder 2e gaining a little traction in the site (and with some questions that aren't just overlooked traits or trait descriptions)

David Coffron

@NautArch Alright, let me know if there's something I might've missed: rpg.stackexchange.com/a/158717/41726

NautArch

@DavidCoffron Got me thinking and was looking at this question:

15

Q: Just what are the differences between Spellcasting and Pact Magic?

Many classes incorporate the Spellcasting feature. One, Warlock, instead has the feature Pact Magic. What are the mechanical differences between the two, or is this just a distinction without a difference? The multiclass rules treat Spellcasting and Pact Magic slots interchangably, and warlocks a...

which then got me thinking about flexible casting

So in this case, the warlock level defines the amount of sorcery points required to create a new spell slot?

I think the implication is whether or not pact magic are Level X slots, are act in that manner and it's different enough to be different?

David Coffron

@NautArch If you are able to craete a warlock-specific slot, that would be another question to answer. I'll mention it in my answer

NautArch

Also, here is the opposite question with the opposite answer (that supports you):

16

Q: Can I use Pact Magic spell slots gained on a short rest to gain sorcery points?

I'm planning on multi-classing in Warlock as a Sorcerer in 5e. I'd like to be able to use my Warlock spell slots from Pact Magic (that I regain on a short rest) to gain sorcery points. I'm inclined to believe the answer to this question is "Yes", because the Font of Magic feature does not specif...

dnd-5e warlock multi-classing sorcerer

@DavidCoffron Wait, i thought this was about using flexible casting to create warlock slots?

David Coffron

@NautArch The question is broader (about any other class)

That's just the main contentious part

NautArch

16:20

ah, gotcha. PHew, i thought i was looking at this entirely wrong for a second :)

David Coffron

Haha; no, that's why the lead answer reads:

Yes, it can make spell slots used by other classes.
No, it can not make a Warlock spell slot specifically.

NautArch

@DavidCoffron and i'm starting to lean in your direction of yes it can

It just becomes increasingly costly as you level your warlock side

David Coffron

@NautArch Ha. Just as I started leaning more towards the slot created isn't tied to any class (i.e. wouldn't work with Primeval Awareness or warlock specific stuff, but works for spells and Divine Smite)

NautArch

balance must be preserved

David Coffron

@NautArch So, if you can make a warlock spell slot (but only at the slot-level that your warlock level sets them too), would that slot then recover on a short rest?

Because I could get 6 or 7 level-appropriate slots on a short rest with Flexible Casting if it does

NautArch

16:26

@DavidCoffron That may be another question. Not sure about the recovery mechanism/reset and how it may differ between the full sorcerer vs the warlock. Since the warlock refreshes on short rest and not long rest, I'd tend to think that the short rest resets it.

David Coffron

@NautArch Yeah, for sure another question that relies on the "any spell slot" interpretation of the Flexible Casting one

(as is the question about whether you can create 1st level warlock slots as a 12th level warlock, and whether they turn into 5th level slots automatically when you do)

MikeQ

In a game that allows multiclassing, would it be unfair to houserule that Pact Magic slots can't be converted to/from sorcery points?

NautArch

@MikeQ I don't think it'd be unfair (that's how I was leaning originally), but it does seem that in theory it was supposed to work.

I'm also not sure it's a big issue, especially if the short rest resets it.

Delioth

Probably depends on how the rest of the party is going. If they're all using multiclass cheese to be really strong, then it'd be unfair to disallow this one cheese. If only one person is doing it, it's not really unfair. If it's discussed beforehand then it's probably not unfair either way

And from my reading, you're literally creating the spell slot and it only goes away on a long rest

NautArch

@Delioth 5e generally doesn't have a lot of multiclass cheese (that i've found). Usually multiclassing gives you an edge in one area, but you lose a lot by doing so in other areas.

@Delioth Yeah, good point. "Any spell slot you create with this feature vanishes when you finish a long rest." seems fairly conclusive.

Delioth

16:34

Yeah, that's fair - that's the closest to a system-agnostic answer; "if you're letting some people use [rule] by combining [ability] & [ability] to get stronger, it's probably unfair if you explicitly disallow [ability] & [ability] to combine (when their RAW reading lets them combine)"

NautArch

So this combo definitely would give you more short rest refresh spell slots

Delioth

Probably unlimited if you can manage to never take a long rest

Cannibalize all sorcerer and warlock slots into sorcery points, into refreshing warlock slots; short rest to refresh warlock slots, cannibalize into more warlock slots; etc.

David Coffron

@Delioth The sharpest multiclass cheese in 5e is coffee lock, and even that is not as strong as it seems in practice

NautArch

@Delioth And that's usually where a DM would step in and stop that

MikeQ

I considered a houserule where sorcerer created spell slots vanish on a short or long rest, but that doesn't prevent coffeelock shenanigans, it just adds more steps. At best it adds an upper bound to the cheese.

Delioth

16:38

@NautArch Which is understandable, but should be part of a larger discussion (is this table being cheesy or munchkin-y, or not)

NautArch

@Delioth True. But I think most tables trying to follow the rules are not like that. For the ones that are, then yeah, it's a viable option.

David Coffron

@Delioth I've never been at a long-term table that was able to sustain munchkin-y/cheese characters for long. They are kind of fun for a bit, but once the gimmick-appeal runs out, the characters are usually fairly flat

Delioth

@DavidCoffron Yeah, there's definitely something to that. Most munchkin-focused characters are built with the mechanics first rather than the mechanics stemming from the character itself. Takes work to build the characterization around the cheese. Though I have a hunch it might work if the whole table just accepts that they're playing an anime or superhero movie (and all embrace being superheroes), though this adds a lot of GM work to make novel enemies and clever situations

NautArch

@Delioth It becomes very easy, in fact. Oh, you do this extremely well? Well, have this encounter that doesn't allow that interaction at all.

Delioth

Well, doing it that way also gets weird since it can easily become "[Joe]'s build doesn't handle [interaction] well, so we'll have a whole fight around [interaction]." [Interaction] fight comes up - Joe sits at the table unable to contribute for [time]

NautArch

16:48

@Delioth Right, and that's why one-dimensional builds are boring because you need one dimensional encounters.

David Coffron

@Delioth If you want to be superheroes, at least one user here will suggest Masks (CC: @Rubiksmoose)

Delioth

But cheesy doesn't necessarily mean one-dimensional - like the warlock+sorcerer who has arbitrary refreshing Warlock spell slots every short rest (even something like 10 is a ton), but can do everything a normal warlock can do

only... more

David Coffron

@Delioth Right, and that character could be extremely interesting if played by the right player at the right table (especially if the GM does something like what I would do, which is have the patron get angry that the warlock is contending with more magic than the pact intended to provide)

Delioth

Which can totally be an interesting character and not all that much more powerful than a normal warlock - the key difference is that this one can do stuff all day.

David Coffron

In my opinion, the best way to make cheese less broken is to provide in-world reasons that it isn't fool-proof.

NautArch

16:51

The short rest warlock/sorcerer thing is a concern, but it's also limiting. Sure, you can spend your sorcery points to create warlock slots that will then refresh. But then you're out of sorcery points and you could have more spell slots (and of higher levels) just by going pure sorcerer.

And a DM can just present situations where short rests aren't even really an option.

KorvinStarmast

@DavidCoffron Another way to make cheese less broken is to put it on a slice of bread and melt it onto the bread in the oven. Broken cheese is now restored to one layer of cheese! (Wait, yes, it is lunchtime ...)

David Coffron

@NautArch Agreed. This can also be solved with the kinds of solutions that present themselves in-universe. Kind of like the ambush outside of your rope trick for the 1 hour adventuring day folks

Rubiksmoose

@DavidCoffron poof Did someone say Masks?!

NautArch

@DavidCoffron That, too. But I've been in a lot of time-crunch situations where we as players said no to short rests because it didn't make sense.

David Coffron

@Rubiksmoose Haha. Figured you'd pop in. Just doing a name-drop for the superhero-type of table.

@NautArch I wish one of my tables was more like that. They wanted to take a short rest during a town fire...

NautArch

16:55

@DavidCoffron Let 'em. And then show the repercussions of that decision.

Delioth

(though maybe also do the "Are you Sure?" to make sure they actually understand what they're trying to do)

David Coffron

@NautArch I was a player. Talked them out of it saying, no we don't need you Arcane Recovery for fly. We are better off helping to rescue more of the townsfolk on foot in the short term

kviiri

I should try Masks but I don't think my usual group wants that

NautArch

@DavidCoffron Yeah, short rest mechanics are hard sometimes. Both for classes that depend on them and for abilities or things like ritual casting. Sometimes time is necessary, but other times time is a limiting factor and you need a new solution. Tables and players should be open to both.

NautArch

17:13

@DavidCoffron Well, I guess that JC tweet thing does come back to bite.

twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/status/1029177242985742337

Rubiksmoose

17:24

@NautArch hah! When doesn't it?

NautArch

@Rubiksmoose :D

Rubiksmoose

@kviiri Oh man, I enjoyed it so much. Definitely not for all tables but ... <3

NautArch

@KorvinStarmast That familiar question about aging is weird.

I can't figure it out

goodguy5

wait what?

A question about a familiar getting older

or a question about getting older that seems familiar?

NautArch

-1

Q: Do creatures from Find Familiar (spell) age & grow old?

'Animal' familiars, as summoned by the 5e [ritual] 1st level spell, are not normal creatures. Technically they are 'spirits': fiends, celestials or fay. Does the age of the body change &/or grow old? Common problems / concerns: (Note: Not trying to answer the question with these options. The id...

dnd-5e spells familiars

goodguy5

17:33

ah

NautArch

In this case, I think the spirit does age (I think feys/celestials/fiends age...maybe?), but the body technically doesn't. But I'd have no issues with a player who wanted to summon the same body and have it age with them and then figure out a dr.who-type scenario of getting a new body.

KorvinStarmast

18:00

@NautArch I think it's a discussion prompt. And it's also one of those things where "at this table, we dont' worry about this" and "at this table, let's fold this into our familiars to make them more than a mechanic."

NautArch

@KorvinStarmast It could very well be that.

But I think your question about "why" is super important.

KorvinStarmast

@NautArch I am not able to give my full attention, but I'd like to see the asker engage before I do anything else.

NautArch

@KorvinStarmast yeah, i'm debating about voting to close as unclear.

the examples confuse me, because they are both about the spirit and the manifestation.

KorvinStarmast

OK, you vote and I'll vote.

NautArch

done :)

KorvinStarmast

18:07

@NautArch done as well

Off to RL now

Himitsu_no_Yami

So the campaign is on pause again because the DM forgot to build the next floor on Roll20

NautArch

@Himitsu_no_Yami Did you talk with them about the non-combat stuff?

Himitsu_no_Yami

Not really but things were working well-ish last session so I didn't see the need to bother

NautArch

@Himitsu_no_Yami I would probably recommend against that strategy :) It's going to come up again and getting ahead of it will help.

Himitsu_no_Yami

I was more focused on figuring out what to do last game as I was the only player

NautArch

18:20

@Himitsu_no_Yami That alone (no pun intended) is kinda weird.

well, pun probably intended

yeah, it was intentional

Himitsu_no_Yami

it wasn't intended at first but once you realized it you went with it?

NautArch

yeah, i'm gonna go with that :P

Himitsu_no_Yami

anyway I was controlling my two and the other guy's character just kinda followed me

NautArch

@Himitsu_no_Yami is it just two players and the DM?

Himitsu_no_Yami

yeah, possibly adding a third but he won't be around for most of the time during the session

NautArch

18:36

Did you have your first combat yet?

GcL

@Himitsu_no_Yami That's the problem I ran into for virtual table tops. The time involved in building was too high.

Himitsu_no_Yami

@NautArch barely

NautArch

@GcL Yeah, and the pen tool is really frustrating. I started just looking for pre-made maps I could use that were 'close enough'.

Delioth

@GcL I've had a lot of success pre-making a bunch of random location-y maps with a nice tool and just reusing them a few times

NautArch

@Himitsu_no_Yami ?

Himitsu_no_Yami

18:38

@NautArch We fought one creature and idek wtf it was

Delioth

That sounds like a first combat

Himitsu_no_Yami

"barely" because it was literally one thing and it lasted like 3 rounds and then we went on with our business

GcL

@Delioth I did the same. Used a lot of sprite maps from SNES games since they line up nicely, but that was a lot of work. I can draw with my vis-a-vis markers on the acetate grid like.... really quickly. Also, I don't waste time drawing crap that isn't needed.

@NautArch Oh, the kicker there, it doesn't work very well with wacom tablets, so even if you do have a nice digital art setup, you can't use it.

Himitsu_no_Yami

We fought this thing

Delioth

@Himitsu_no_Yami I don't know about your games, but in ours combat only lasts between 3-6 rounds most of the time

Himitsu_no_Yami

18:40

@Delioth idk it just didn't feel right to me

Delioth

@GcL Yeah, I definitely lean more into map-prep with dungeon painter rather than trying to find exactly the right thing

NautArch

Yeah, most combat is in the 3-6. I can probably count on one hand combats that lasted over a minute in the past several years of playing.

and you're level 10 @Himitsu_no_Yami?

GcL

You can make combat go longer if that's the desire. A chase sequence in the middle and enemies showing up at different times, you can have a pretty drawn out battle.

Himitsu_no_Yami

yes

NautArch

@Himitsu_no_Yami that's an 'easy' combat. Little surprised it lasted that long!

Should have only had about 70 HP.

Himitsu_no_Yami

18:44

it was in total (magical) darkness so out of the 3 characters fighting it two had disadvantage trying to hit it

GcL

@Himitsu_no_Yami Did anyone try casting magic missile at the darkness?

Himitsu_no_Yami

nobody had it

goodguy5

(I gochu GCL)

Himitsu_no_Yami

We had two warlocks (one that was half cleric) and a barbarian

NautArch

@Himitsu_no_Yami er, if it was in magical darkness, it wasn't able to see, either.

Himitsu_no_Yami

18:45

@NautArch DM said it had the equivalent of Devil's Sight

NautArch

@Himitsu_no_Yami Not RAW, but they may have tweaked it.

Himitsu_no_Yami

what is the name of that thing anyway?

NautArch

@Himitsu_no_Yami shadow demon

i ran a tineye search on the image you gave me :)

Himitsu_no_Yami

oh

NautArch

I hope they gave you more XP than standard for it!

Himitsu_no_Yami

20:53

Well fuck me... The barbarian died and the player's schedule changed too

So now I'm the only player

KorvinStarmast

@Himitsu_no_Yami Just a quick note, the use of profanity is not an approved norm for this chat.

Himitsu_no_Yami

my bad. I think I'm still in the editing window

nope not quite

But yeah, I'll keep that in mind sorry

KorvinStarmast

@Himitsu_no_Yami I hope that you mean that the Barbarian PC died, and not the person who played the Barbarian?

Himitsu_no_Yami

yeah, the character died

KorvinStarmast

Good, wanted to make sure I hadn't misunderstood that.

Himitsu_no_Yami

20:59

the player's schedule changed tho so he can't play

KorvinStarmast

But also bad, now you need a new group

And so the hunt for a group begins ...

Himitsu_no_Yami

I'm the only one who fits with the DM's schedule though

KorvinStarmast

There are bound to be people somewhere, but where to find them? That's part of the challenge.

Himitsu_no_Yami

but we're playing at work

KorvinStarmast

Oh, yeah, that makes it a bit trickier, I suppose.

gaaaaaaaaah

Himitsu_no_Yami

21:01

and he doesn't want others playing cus they won't know when we get a call or similar and he can't get their attention in person when we're waiting on them

Himitsu_no_Yami

21:53

I think I figured out the worst class you could ever possibly play in Tomb of Annihilation

The Revived Rogue

Xirema

22:42

@Himitsu_no_Yami Worst in the sense it would be overpowered, or underpowered?

Himitsu_no_Yami

It would die too quick

it's revived and there's the whole death curse

> Any humanoid on the planet that has been brought back from the dead begins to waste away. Its hit point maximum is reduced by 20 (1 for each day the Soulmonger has been active) and decreases by 1 every midnight until the Soulmonger is destroyed. If a humanoid’s hit point maximum drops to 0, it dies. Traveling to another world or plane does nothing to halt the wasting effect once it has begun.

Xirema

So I don't think the Revived is technically someone who has been brought back from the dead?

Not in the way that you'd think of it.

Himitsu_no_Yami

"You’ve had a soul-shaking realization: you’ve been dead before, yet somehow you are alive again."

Xirema

Like, they didn't die and then get resurrected, they're like a descendant of their Ancestors.

The reason they get so confused ("Wait, wasn't I dead?") is because they're getting interfering memories from their past lives.

Himitsu_no_Yami

> You might have convinced a deity to let you return to the Material Plane, perhaps you signed a deal with a fiend, or maybe you used an artifact that revived you.

Sounds a lot like resurrection to me

MikeQ

22:57

Could be resurrection, could be reincarnation, could be something else entirely. Besides, you could just say that the resurrection occurred before the events of the campaign

Himitsu_no_Yami

> Besides, you could just say that the resurrection occurred before the events of the campaign

Syndra died once before the events of the campaign but the death curse is affecting her

... quoting does work right in the chat

Xirema

Ugh, yet another reason why no one liked that subclass. It's too contradictory on what it's actually supposed to *be*.

Himitsu_no_Yami

23:13

I love the idea of it myself

MikeQ

I'm with @Xirema on this one. Don't see how the concept fits the rogue class, either mechanically or narratively.

Some of the classes and archetypes are derived from fictional characters in other works. Maybe it's based on someone specific?

Xirema

@MikeQ I mean, I'm not opposed to the concept being paired with the Rogue.

Miniman

I don't have strong feelings about the concept, but I think the subclass as presented is kind of a mess.

Xirema

The bigger problem is that they've not defined particularly well what the archetype actually is.

@Miniman This.

MikeQ

23:31

In the sense that it doesn't support or open any particular playstyle? Or do you mean something else?

Miniman

@MikeQ Well, it does support a particular playstyle. (2 sneak attacks per round using ready action). I meant in the sense that it's a random mishmash of unrelated features.

Memories of past lives, sure. You're undead-ish...okay? Necrotic lasers, sort of fits with being undead-ish I guess. Speak with dead and get a random ability...what? Ask "the powers of death" questions...why? Near death experiences let you change your personality completely...??? Teleportation???

Rune knight has the same problem, but it only has 2 unrelated things (rune stuff and giant stuff) and they've included an explicit "these things are totally related" statement in there.

Beekeeper actually sticks to its theme, its features just aren't very interesting. Which is disappointing, because it's a cool theme.

(Just to be clear, I absolutely think rune knight should focus on runes and leave the giant stuff to a giant-themed subclass, I'm not letting it off the hook just because they said it's all one theme. Because it isn't.)

Himitsu_no_Yami

23:47

I think the thing with "ask 'the powers of death' questions" comes from still having some form of contact with them, they let you leave for a reason. The "speak with dead" bit is you forming a connection to their spirit. The proficiency gained from it is a memory either of your own or of theirs.

The teleportation is meant to be kinda like a ghost slipping into and our of the ethereal plane but that's definitely not how it needs to work

Miniman

@Himitsu_no_Yami But the description doesn't really imply "the powers of death let you leave for some reason". That would be a much clearer and stronger concept.

MikeQ

Here's what puzzles me. Most subclasses are good at something, or have the bits to support a certain playstyle, usually in a way that synergizes with the base class. That's what makes it an interesting choice for the player. But when I look at Revived, I can't figure out what it's supposed to be good at.

Miniman

Although it's also kind of a warlock concept, so maybe that's why they didn't say it.

Himitsu_no_Yami

@Miniman "You might have convinced a deity to let you return to the Material Plane, perhaps you signed a deal with a fiend" or "you are one of death’s representatives among the living."

Miniman

@Himitsu_no_Yami 1/3, maybe 2/3 if we assume the deity is a deity of death. Definitely more of a warlock concept when you put it that way, though.

Himitsu_no_Yami

23:52

You're right but they've already got something similar with the Undying patron

Miniman

Well, that's kind of the opposite (undying patrons are mortals who've gone to incredible lengths to avoid death), but there's definitely some thematic overlap there.

Himitsu_no_Yami

Opposite yes but also very similar in theme

Miniman

Yeah, exactly.

I guess part of it is just that I'd really like to see a psychopomp class.

Himitsu_no_Yami

Have any of you read Percy Jackson? If so this rogue class kinda reminds me of Nico DiAngelo

Miniman

@Himitsu_no_Yami Not me, sorry.

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