TRPG General Chat

RobertF

00:00

Hmm Quietus looks intriguing - would have to be in the right mood to play it.

BESW

Ngen Mapu is a new Fate World of Adventure of South American urban fantasy from Felipe Real. (DTRPG; itch.io) Patreon article: "Ngen Mapu is our final Fate World."

BESW

00:11

@RobertF Yeah, our group is very much a "horror is a sometimes game" group, but we do like it occasionally and I'm happy to find games that are entirely unrelated to HPL.

Hot RPG Questions

00:31

9

Q: Using a concentration spell on top of another spell from another spell list?

This question was brought up in my intense scheming against a D&D boss my DM created in my off-hours. I'm a druid, so I was thinking of all the broken ways I could use my spells. Then it hit me that I could take feats. Taking the Magic Initiate Feat: Choose a class: bard, cleric, druid, sorce...

linksassin

I have to say I find the irony of this answer entertaining. It goes on and on about other answers ignoring words but ignores one itself.

BESW

@Rubiksmoose I usually sort by activity, but I change the settings regularly.

Ben

Well I feel sheepish

►

BESW

Hot RPG Questions

00:51

4

Q: Can a Flame Blade be used as an improvised weapon?

Flame Blade creates a blade of fire in your free hand: You evoke a fiery blade in your free hand. The blade is similar in size and shape to a scimitar... Can that blade of fire be used for an improvised weapon attack? Would such an attack benefit from scimitar proficiency? Would it deal 1d4...

dnd-5e spells improvised-weaponry

trogdor

01:03

@BESW not creepy at aaaalll

BESW

Museum for Communication - Telephone Sheep

►

Ben

01:28

@MikeQ If you're feeling up to it, I need a profile for a female Inquisitor - non-psyker.

MikeQ

@Ben Need a profile? What do you mean?

Hot RPG Questions

8

Q: How does Resilient sphere (cast via contingency) interact with an existing Silence spell?

I have a situation in my 5E campaign where the party cast a silence spell to sneak up on a sleeping wizard (super effective). The wizard was then rudely woken and beaten up to the point where his contingency spell of Resilient sphere was triggered. The question is, does the resilient sphere b...

dnd-5e spells

Ben

So I'm writing up more of a novel fit my dark heresy adventures, from Haddens perspective (the techpriest) he operated under an inquisitor, but I don't remember her name, or anything else about her. Figured, if you were interested, you could create a red sheet for her?

She was a candidate, actually... Not an actual inquisitor

Yet

Only offering as an opportunity to scratch an itch for you lol. Don't have to

Joshua

01:44

Unwise to tangle with Scrooge McDuck in melee.

Ben

01:56

May 23 at 2:40, by Joshua

Somebody just reminded me again. Don't tangle with Scrooge McDuck in melee. His STR stat is insane.

It was you last time too lol

Joshua

facepalm I forgot I did that.

user15026

I dunno, it sounds like pretty good advice to me and worth the repeating

Ben

Lol

@Ash this is true

linksassin

@Joshua If you were unaware of games this statement would be utterly confusing.

Miniman

02:26

@linksassin I love seeing statements like "Again, this is an opinion as credible as any other" in answers. We don't need voting at all, answers can just tell us how good or bad they are.

Joshua

So long as OA is honest about it.

Ugh; somebody actually sacrificed the Hand of Vecna. Complete waste.

Stackstuck

Eh?

That's an option?

And in what?

Joshua

nethackwiki.com/wiki/Lessons_learned_the_hard_way

linksassin

02:55

@Miniman If that worked we should just open all our answers with "This one is the correct answer."

BESW

I'm kiiinda tempted to go in with an answers focus on solutions to the problem being asked about, rather than responding to other answers; please make sure that your answer would be just as coherent if all the other answers went away.

Miniman

@linksassin I mean, some people already do.

Ben

@BESW There's Answering the question; answering the question in conjunction with/addition to an existing answer; and then responding to other answers

As I see it

linksassin

@Ben In this case they are answering the question but do so by repeated pointing out the "errors" in the other answers. I did comment to tell them answers should stand alone not discuss other answers but it isn't a candidate for deletion like your last case.

Ben

03:10

One of those weird edge cases :P

linksassin

@Ben It's a "my answer is right because the others are wrong for these reasons" type answer. Which would be ok, if they were actually correct.

Hot RPG Questions

2

Q: How to get a character's limb regrown at 3rd level?

I was DMing for my second ever session and decided to roll on the lingering injuries chart. Got a 3 and told the player (who was nearly killed by a group of orcs then and there) that they chopped off his leg and left him there. He made his death saves and stabilized and another player dragged him...

dnd-5e

Joshua

I've written quite a few good answers across stackexchange that were designed to merely cover an aspect not covered by other answers.

linksassin

@Joshua So long as your answer is complete enough to actually answer the question that's fine. If the other answers disappear and your answer were to no longer make sense then it's not a good answer.

Ben

Same. Sometimes an answer merely needs to be explained in another way. It says the exact same thing, just in a different way. E.g: my answer states the facts. The accepted answer says the same thing, in a different way

V2Blast

03:27

@goodguy5 aka Andrew Yang's "Freedom Dividend" :)

V2Blast

04:02

I reopened this question since OP edited to specify the RPG and edition, but users may want to look over it and suggest improvements:

2

Q: How could you gain a ritual book for the Ritual Caster feat, narratively?

I wanted to add the Ritual Caster feat to my character. I talked about this with my DM and they said that I would need a way to acquire a ritual book in order to make use of the feat. I suggested that my PC could buy one, but we found out that doing so would let other players buy similar feats. ...

dnd-5e feats equipment

linksassin

@V2Blast TBH it still feels a little POB/idea generation. I'm not sure which side of the line it sits though.

V2Blast

@linksassin Yeah, that's why I linked it here

linksassin

@V2Blast It's difficult to know how to fix it though. Class and level might help.

linksassin

04:31

@V2Blast This comment aged well... :P

V2Blast

lol

linksassin

I imagine you have a few of them lying around

Ben

05:04

A Servant of the Omnissiah

Ben

05:53

Something for you to read @linksassin :P

linksassin

06:03

@Ben It's interesting. I did give it a skim earlier. Can't say I'm familiar enough with the setting to understand all of it. That's the start of a book from the view of your character?

Ben

@linksassin Yeah. Thought it might be interesting.

Basically techpriests are believers that the machine is the ultimate state of being. Hardcore Vulcans haha

linksassin

I'm considering writing the story of my paladin players arc in my campaign. But it will depend on how things work out.

Ben

At this stage the adventures we had are a few years old, and all I have are the couple of recounts I did, so a lot of it is going to be pure fiction.

Could od the same for yours?

V2Blast

I've never written anything first-person from the perspective of any of my characters

only my session notes which are in third-person

Ben

I like to think about what goes through a character's head in certain situations - how they feel in certain interactions

Miniman

06:20

@Ben Pretty sure you mean heretics. Preeeetty sure.

Ben

@Miniman Who are the Heretics?

linksassin

@V2Blast My current campaign we take turns rewriting session recaps from the view of our characters. The Half-Orc Cleric that can't read or write makes some interesting recaps.

Miniman

@Ben Techpriests. The whole Adeptus Mechanicus, really.

Ben

@Miniman [squints judgingly]

Lol

Miniman

@Ben What's that? You worship something other than the Emperor? The Omnissiah? Oh, that's fascinating, that is. Heretic.

Ben

06:24

There's heretics, hereteks… I think they all just agree that there's worse things out there

linksassin

On an unrelated note; for firefly fans this is the best gorram answer I've ever read

And by Firefly fans I mean everyone. Because if you aren't a fan you just haven't seen it yet.

2

Ben

Ain't that the truth

V2Blast

@linksassin Haha, I love it

Hot RPG Questions

06:54

1

Q: What happens to a wizard's magic when they are swallowed by a tarrasque?

I was watching this video about the Tarrasque when I saw that its stomach fluids strip magic. I was wondering if a Wizard is swallowed by a Tarrasque, does the wizard lose his innate magic or is it only for artefacts/magic items?

dnd-5e monsters magic wizard

BESW

07:06

I loved Firefly when I first saw it.

Now... aside from some really good actors and technicians I think its greatest asset is getting cancelled.

linksassin

@BESW I have a mate that refuses to watch the last 3 episodes because he doesn't want to live in a world where there is no more firefly

@BESW If it hadn't been cancelled it certainly wouldn't have the notoriety it does. I don't think it would have been a bad show for not being cancelled though.

kviiri

I watched most of Firefly during an all-nighter baking spree and only remember a few bits and pieces.

BESW

I've seen what Joss Whedon does to his metanarratives. Firefly not only got notoriety for being cancelled, it escaped the downward cycle of Whedon Syndrome (but see Serenity). So it's only just suffering from fetishising, exotification, Lost Cause apologetics, savagification...

Sure, it turns a good phrase and the actors are great and the team working on lighting and sets did a bang-up job. But it's got almost all the typical Whedon problems plus a few extra thrown in for good measure, and it only escaped his greatest signature TV series flaw by virtue of being cancelled so we can imagine the next seasons not suffering from the same cycle of misery porn all his other shows inevitably devolve into.

Firefly is a cowboy story if you didn't have to feel guilty about killing the Natives and stealing their land, and a Reconstruction story where the hero fought for the South, set in a future full of Asian aesthetics without any Asians.

It was fun popcorn watching the first time but I liked it less on each re-watch, and even less when I learned tidbits about the plans for future seasons which show that Whedon was already laying the seeds for the misery porn, like that Inara would turn out to have a fatal disease.

V2Blast

07:23

I've only watched it once and enjoyed it. But I am aware of some of those problematic aspects in the original. Haven't really looked into the plans for later seasons.

@BESW Out of curiosity, have you watched Marvel's Agents of SHIELD? Joss' name is on it but it's mostly Jed and Mo's show. Wondering what you think of it.

BESW

I enjoyed large portions of the first couple seasons.

It had a shaky start but some good material, but then it seemed like Jed and Mo got into the misery porn stash too.

And, of course, its premise shifted dramatically. Which isn't bad, but it stopped being the show about unpowered trying to find law and order in a powered world, and began being... something else.

trogdor

same

also it was clever the first time they brought Brett Dalton (Grant Ward) back, but every subsequent time was less clever

very rapidly so

BESW

Oh yes, the Rose Tyler Effect.

trogdor

yes except

she was "we are telling you right now she can't come back"

"hey look she's back"

but yes

IE all I'm really saying is she made me more upset, but they both in the end did the same thing really

it's compounded by how they wrote her character into a corner in other ways

but the way he came back wasn't really treated any better I guess

after the first time at least

I guess really,..... I'm frustrated about both of them for the same meta reasons

I couldn't continue to suspend disbelief

also, any amount of being less annoyed when Grant Ward came back was only because at least he wasn't actually Grant Ward when he did

but when they did that a second time it was way less clever

V2Blast

07:41

@BESW Yeah, the show definitely changes dramatically within a few seasons

BESW

I would've been more okay with comic-book staples like Ward coming back over and over, if they'd stuck with their original principle of unpowered people dealing with powered scenarios.

trogdor

@BESW that's fair, we can disagree on that

XD

linksassin

I could never get into Shield because it always felt like they were trying to stuff an entire action movie plot into a 1 hour episode. Things felt rushed or unfinished.

V2Blast

Eh. I enjoyed that the story continually moved along

trogdor

@V2Blast and you are totally allowed to XD

linksassin

07:46

granted I did only watch a few episodes and it didn't grab me so I stopped.

V2Blast

@linksassin Assuming you watched the first few episodes...

linksassin

Too many live play shows to have time for tv anyway

V2Blast

the first half of season 1 is very different from basically the rest of the series

linksassin

@V2Blast Correct, when it first started airing.

@V2Blast I'm happy to believe that and have heard that before. I don't think I'm going to bother going back to watch it though.

V2Blast

@linksassin If anything, they dragged out the plot in that first half (or two-thirds?) of the first season because they had to time it to tie into Captain America: The Winter Soldier

fair enough

I basically watch everything in the MCU

kviiri

07:49

I have only faint recollections of Firefly for large part so I can't really comment on eg. the issues BESW raised, but I feel this inherent skepticism towards works that receive unusual amounts of lauding

linksassin

@V2Blast I've seen most of it except Shield. Only seen some of the Netflix stuff though.

V2Blast

I was pleasantly surprised to see another Indian character introduced in the latest season, even if only as a supporting character

(there were two Indian characters in a past season that played an important part of a story arc)

The show does pretty well in terms of representation :)

(especially compared to most of the MCU which is abysmal at it)

BESW

08:07

I will say, Ming-Na Wen is amazing even when they give her the dumbest stuff to say or do. And I'm not sure anybody except Clark Gregg could have turned a five-word phrase into a multi-season character arc with so little help from the script.

And I really liked Fitz-Simmons until they went all Whedony.

(Would've been much happier if they hadn't gone the obvious romance route there, for one thing.)

trogdor

yyeeaaaahh

all that as well

there was a little more than just the whole Grant Ward thing

V2Blast

@BESW Apparently Jed and Mo based the characters on themselves, from what I've heard. so... yeah.

trogdor

08:22

I would really love to see more stuff with a man and a woman who are friends,... and they don't just end up dating or marrying or wtv

V2Blast

that I agree with

trogdor

you don't need to pair up every man and woman into a romantic pair

V2Blast

BESW

trogdor

you can't

but like

I would love it if they stopped doing some things

I know they won't but I can dream

BESW

08:25

V2Blast

lol

trogdor

all the skin horse

all of it

we will begin the download right aboooooooooout

now

XD

@BESW this is fine,... I mean come on neither of them is even a man OR a woman

BESW

Excuse me, Unity is usually at least 75% upcycled post-woman parts.

trogdor

more than the sum of parts man

way more

XD

BESW

I'm pretty sure Unity considers herself a woman, to the extent that gender is a thing she does.

trogdor

08:29

in fact I would be more focused on the nanite blood,.... stuff that constitutes most of what she actually,..... is

@BESW it's really not the gender thing that applies here

BESW

Seriously though, imagine the great story drama they could've gotten out of Fitz or Simmons dating someone else and the rest of the team worrying that it's going to break up the Fitz-Simmons duo, and the team does all kinds of terrible awkward things that just make things worse because the Fitz-Simmons BFFness was never in trouble in the first place.

trogdor

she wears human parts but I think many would indeed argue that doesn't make you human

@BESW yes, this would have been a fantastic story

BESW

No, but Sweetheart isn't a human either and she's all woman.

trogdor

ok that's fair

but you are kinda nit picking my point pretty hard now XD

at least you can't argue that either of them is a man

BESW

Even when Unity was wearing the corpse of the swamp's husband, she was definitely not a man.

trogdor

08:33

yes

exactly

Ben

10:03

@BESW any lesson that Hollywood provides should be taken with a teaspoon of salt

Maybe a 3/4 teaspoon

There's a question - does CR calculation take into account the PCs ac?

Sdjz

@Ben in what edition?

Ben

I always forget that part haha

My go to is D&D 5e

Sdjz

then according to the calculations from the DMG no, the players aren't really taken into account

BESW

Is PC AC in CR? IDK RTDMG @ ur FLGS.

2

Sdjz

"Is Player Character Armor Class in Challenge Rating? I Don't Know Read The Dungeon Master's Guide At your Friendly Local Game Store" did I get it right?

(had to google that last thing)

kviiri

10:13

Is Personal Computer Assassins' Creed in Croatia?

BESW

@Sdjz Yup.

Ben

@BESW I'm on my phone haha. Txt abbrv's take over :P

@V2Blast your comment on my answer about "rephrasing 'uncomfortably warm'"... I don't think I follow?

I can understand if it's clunky, I did sort of just reword it to use the same words without the "you" part

Carcer

10:42

monster challenge ratings are calculated independently of players. There's no provision for adapting them to player AC that I can recall

sorry I'm on a delay loop

kviiri

10:56

How's your day, everyone?

Carcer

my day has weather in it and I don't like it.

Someone_Evil

@kviiri Mine was started by my building testing the fire alarm, which wasn't great.

Carcer

it's too warm out and far more humid than usual

kviiri

@Carcer A Finnish comedian used to say that even bad weather is better than no weather at all.

@Someone_Evil We had fire alarm yesterday, but it was ringing just in one corridor, adjacent to our own. We figured that only that part was on fire and no one else has to evac.

Turned out to be a fault in the alarm

BESW

> I'm the Whether Man, not the Weather Man, for after all it's more important to know whether there will be weather than what the weather will be.
(Norton Juster, "The Phantom Tollbooth")

Carcer

11:11

@kviiri some of my lot's buildings have that as actual policy - you only evacuate if the alarm is sounding in your area

kviiri

11:23

@Carcer We once had a fire alarm occur at our college and no one reacted. Our lector was a fairly strict and snarky fellow and no one dared get up without his approval. After it had sounded for about fifteen seconds with everyone awkwardly ignoring it, one student asked the teacher whether we should do something.

He replied that "I don't recall our fire alarms sounding this way" so we remained in class. There was some commotion in the hallway, with students from other classrooms leaving their rooms to go outside. After about a minute, our teacher said that "Well I guess it can't be anything else either, let's evacuate" and so we did.

Turns out it was the fire alarm. Later, I also found out that our teacher was the building's security rep. Good grief.

Wasn't a false alarm, just a tad excessive one --- there was a small fire in the cafeteria's kitchen.

Carcer

11:38

that's a bit dire

I get to be a fire warden so I'm empowered to shout at people who are ignoring an alarm

Carcer

11:49

hm

I wonder if there's any serious mechanical knock-ons to ruling (5e) that critical hits deal maximum damage on the normal damage dice rather than rolling the dice twice

the average result should be exactly the same

kviiri

@Carcer FWIW, that's how 4e did it (except some weapons did additional damage on critical hits)

I liked that system more, because while rolling lots of dice is fun, in practice critical hits often wound up being a bit underwhelming :)

Carcer

yeah, that's kind of my thinking

it's sad when you get a critical hit and then roll really low damage

whereas "MAXIMUM DAMAGE!" is always exciting

BESW

Yeah, 4e's crit system was solidly in line with its "predictable, controllable" goals.

Miniman

@Carcer A lot of groups I've played with have run max damage + roll the dice once, and it made no noticeable difference.

Carcer

@Miniman that is something of an overall improvement to critical hit power

Miniman

12:02

That said, no-one was running Assassin Rogue/Vengeance Paladin style nonsense, either.

@Carcer I think the philosophy behind it is "guaranteed to be better than a regular hit but still having a random element".

Carcer

critical hits are usually infrequent enough that it's a pretty minor overall change in expected damage I guess

kviiri

While I know Miniman's change does objectively strengthen crits, I think it kinda makes more sense than the current model and max damage model.

Miniman

@kviiri I think max damage makes the most sense, but it does make critical hits feel less "special".

kviiri

@Miniman Yep. Although game-design wise, critical hits as a concept should be scrutinized more.

They add an element of unpredictability that might be desirable, but so does normal hit/damage rolling. Maybe something less binary would work better.

Miniman

> In other news, the debate over the critical hit system continues with some designers suggesting its impact be lowered while others question its very purpose. More on this story as it unfolds.

Eh, that one doesn't really work without Jim Rash's incredible delivery.

BESW

12:10

kviiri

Apr 11 at 10:12, by kviiri

In my group, the usual justification is a paper-thin wrapper of Realism over a huge, throbbing lump of the Cult of Natural 1 and 20.

Carcer

okay, so we want there to always be a chance that an attack can connect and do damage, but we don't want the damage done to get too excessive...

what if we design a system where rolling a 20 is just an automatic hit, and then you have to roll again to see if it crits?

everyone likes rolling dice twice.

BESW

[grin] At a certain point in deconstructing critical hit/miss philosophy, we come to the realization that it's an attempt to fix how boring the d20+mod vs static target mechanic is as a binary hit/miss determiner.

kviiri

@Carcer Isn't that what earlier DnD editions did?

Miniman

@kviiri Yeah, and it sucked.

Carcer

12:13

@kviiri that's the joke

well specifically that's what 3e did

kviiri

@BESW And that's the gospel truth

BESW

13th Age's most valiant attempt at hacking the d20 System was trying to rehabilitate the d20 attack roll.

Carcer

heh, agree, systems using what I shall arbitrarily refer to as degrees of success are mechanically better

haven't actually read 13th age though I should get around to it. Partner did buy the book and all

unified system mechanics are great but they sure did pick a boring one to unify on, huh

BESW

13th Age keys secondary effects off qualities of your unmodified d20 attack roll, as well as using d20+mod to determine hit/miss.

Carcer

ah, intredasting.

BESW

12:17

Depending on your character build you'll get extra options/features triggered by rolling an even number, or a number below 6, or exactly 12.

kviiri

I think, among other problems, that there's an unnecessary degree of mechanical complexity in including "how well you hit" both in the attack roll and the damage roll.

Carcer

Makes me think a little of the DA RPG system

@kviiri of course the question there is whether these should be separate rolls at all

kviiri

@Carcer Yes, that's another worthwhile consideration

Carcer

there are, of course, a lot of systems where they are not separated.

kviiri

In Apocalypse World and related games, attack rolls are commonly just "one roll and pick as many effects from this list based on your success"

GcL

13:00

@Miniman in AD&D I recall rolling a d6 after a nat 20 to see if the auto-hit was a critical.

@kviiri The alternative of separate rolls that both affect the outcome is also complex, and more rolls consumes more time.

Ars Magica's combat system for non-magic is less tactical. The complexity comes from doing the tabulation of scores before the rolling.

BESW

I've come to appreciate systems where the concept of an attack and damage aren't separated, mechanically, from the other kinds of things you do to accomplish a goal.

Or if they are, it's because they're special and rare--like in Bubblegumshoe, where anything more than a scuffle is liable to wind up with detention, grounding, and other real-world consequences as well as serious injury.

Or Cthulhu Dark, where attacking the monster just means you die.

GcL

In ArM, it's the attacker total - defender total. Bigger difference means the defender takes more damage.

So a botch, roughly equivalent of a critical fail, drops your score to 0. If you're the defender, you're going to die.

BESW

That's roughly how Fate does it, but without criticals.

GcL

but the max chance for that is capped at 10%.... for like, trying to cast a spell while climbing a castle wall being chased by opponents in poor weather at night.

Otherwise it's usually a 1% chance.

Carcer

@GcL reading suggests there were a variety of house rule/optional rules about crits in 1e/2e

BESW

13:12

But then there's Gumshoe One-2-One, where a physical attack is exactly the same as any other skill check, only the narrative positioning is different.

GcL

@Carcer I just recall rolling a d6 afterwards. I don't really recall what made it a crit. A 6? a 5 or a 6? It was a long time ago.

I do recall it being exciting that something crazy might happen with the attack, but that was the result of the DM's narration and not the dice rolling mechanic.

kviiri

@GcL I don't see the point you're trying to make?

Carcer

I think that's slightly crossed wires.

GcL

@kviiri It's similar cognitive overhead one way or another. Either the effects are combined into one roll and there's mental gymnastics around that, or you're rolling multiple times for different things that combine to affect the outcome, and there's keeping that straight.

I don't think complexity is a particularly good metric to judge by. Satisfaction with the system is the goal, yes?

kviiri

@GcL My point is, this doesn't seem to be like justified complexity

Carcer

13:20

it's a pretty good heuristic that system satisfaction is reduced by unnecessary complexity

kviiri

And besides, that particular statement wasn't about one roll vs many rolls.

Carcer

and in a vacuum, it's easier to judge system complexity than to poll for system satisfaction

GcL

@kviiri Justified by what measure? It's too complex to justify the fun it adds? Too complex to justify the distribution it's trying to achieve?

kviiri

It was about many rolls with overlapping meanings vs many rolls with separate meanings.

GcL

@Carcer Complexity can be calculated. Satisfaction frustratingly refuses to be.

NautArch

13:22

@GcL But what if I asked you on a scale of 1 to 10?

GcL

@NautArch I'd wonder, "who needs 10 scales?"

kviiri

@GcL Fun, ultimately. But it's also about the effect one's trying to achieve, of course

And whether that effect is worth it, of course.

NautArch

@GcL well played :D

goodguy5

welp, that's enough facebook for this morning. two depressing posts in a row and I don't feel like crying at work.

GcL

@kviiri I occasionally have to remind myself, aloud sometimes, that fun is the goal.

@goodguy5 My friend only uses his to post photos of his children so the in-laws don't pester him. He does nothing else with it.

goodguy5

13:25

I do that and scroll

And about twice a month, I get baited into arguing with someone about politics

GcL

@goodguy5 Sounds like a trap.

goodguy5

oh, it is.

I was so mad Monday. Someone posted something and I refuted it with facts. Like I went and got demographic and crime statistics from reputable sources.

And they responded "Those are just numbers, bro. That doesn't prove anything."

I at least was able to realize that it was a waste of time and cut my losses right there.

GcL

@goodguy5 yeah, you're not going to use logical reasoning and statistics to get someone out of a position that was not gotten into by those methods.

NautArch

@goodguy5 that's the big reason I quit facebook

kviiri

@GcL Statistics can be very misleading even if based on true data, though.

(and even when made in good faith)

GcL

13:29

@goodguy5 It's not always a waste of time. There are approaches that can work, but presentation with different facts rarely works.

Carcer

if you want to feel a little better

keep in mind that when you get into a public argument like that on facebook you have an audience

GcL

@kviiri especially when done with good intentions.

goodguy5

@GcL yea, there's a book out there about winning arguments with people, especially those that don't listen to facts.

Carcer

you might not be able to persuade whoever it is you're actually arguing with that they're wrong - but you may influence the silent audience who read along and were on a fence

GcL

@goodguy5 I don't think people are particularly fact based. People like a good narrative. Facts can support that, but essentially, we're emotionally driven actors staring in our own play.

@Carcer Which brings up a good point. Always argue near fences. They make for good neighbors too.

Carcer

13:31

@GcL It is very important to have a fence you can point to for making a point about greener grass

kviiri

Eg. there's a particular immigrant group here with a crime rate about three times as high as total population (mind you, that's still pretty low). Anti-immigration and openly racist people often point toward that statistic and yeah, I can't deny it, it's true. But there's a but.

Y'see, said immigrant group also is disproportionately young adult male. Comparing to a similar demographic slice of total population, the crime rate difference smooths out, not completely but still.

goodguy5

ironically enough, this was about immigrants and crime.

One of those sob stories about "this man's son was killed by an illegal immigrant", yea, but unless you're going to go out and interview every single person who was killed by a US citizen, or died because they couldn't afford healthcare, or died from unsafe working conditions (including miner's lung), then I don't want to hear it.

kviiri

@goodguy5 Not a coincidence --- you mentioned demographics and crime statistics :)

And yeah, hard agree.

goodguy5

but "Those are just numbers, bro."

(╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻

kviiri

The over-reliance in statistics in political arguments has caused some problems. People look at just numbers without thinking what they actually represent. It shouldn't be a contest on who finds the paper with the number you want, you should actually always get to the root of the number's meaning.

GcL

13:36

@goodguy5 Those are examples of compelling narratives. People generally enjoy or want to hear about those instead of numbers couched in other numbers and the assumptions and collection methods around those.

goodguy5

@GcL I don't!

I just want the fact-facts.

kviiri

on the other hand, it has also created a silly reaction where people disagree with statistics completely as if they were all lies just because they and others cannot understand them.

GcL

@goodguy5 You read a lot of stats journals instead of fantasy novels for fun?

goodguy5

But my wife has told me on numerous occasions that I make too many logical arguments without considering the human side of things, so "bleep blorp", I guess.

GcL

Do you play D&D to see the outcomes and compare your dice distributions to the theoretical distributions? or do you play for telling stories with friends?

goodguy5

13:38

I don't look at facts for Fun, I look at facts for information.

They're separate in my mind.

I don't enjoy listening to the news. I kind of hate it, actually. but if I want to be vaguely informed about the state of the world, y'know in case I have to move to Ireland or something, then I have to do it.

Think of it akin to a chore.

GcL

@goodguy5 Do you seek information more often on subjects you're interested in? I do.

@goodguy5 Let's wait and see on brexit. I'm hoping for an Irish re-unification, but that's just my wishful thinking.

goodguy5

Banned Clip: Star Trek predicts United Ireland in 2024

►

GcL

Make it so!

Carcer

there's a big gap between brexit and irish re-unification that looks like this: BREXIT -> [YEARS IF NOT DECADES OF SECTARIAN VIOLENCE] -> Unified Ireland

GcL

@Carcer I'm wishfully hoping that the middle part looks different.

Carcer

13:45

with boris johnson in charge?

GcL

@Carcer I didn't think the irish liked him very much. Haven't been back in a while, so I've got no sense of it.

Plus, stranger things happened, and that's been a fantastic show so far.

Carcer

@GcL they wouldn't. Nobody should like Bojo very much. The prospect of him being in power because he's the Tory party's darling is terrifying and the only thing you could reliably predict about his reign would be that his selfish incompetence and buffoonery would make the worst possible mess of everything

he's the sort of mad imperialist who'd visit Ireland and fondly reminisce about Cromwell's legacy

GcL

14:13

Is anyone around to do some quick ad libbing?

David Coffron

Huh, is this page new or am I just an expert ad-filterer by now and haven't noticed?

GcL

Looks new to me.

David Coffron

@GcL It's new for 2019, but has apparently been here all 6 months

GcL

I blame the cats.

David Coffron

Or apparently it isn't new at all and I'm just oblivious

Xirema

14:42

Does anyone know how to left-justify LaTEX tables in Stack Exchange?

I really don't like putting narrow tables on posts, because it centers them on the page and it doesn't look good. =/

David Coffron

@Xirema Yes

Xirema

@DavidCoffron Hooooooowwwwwwwwwwwww

David Coffron

Assuming you mean array formulae, just place {l} in the brackets after \begin{array}

or like... {lcr} for example

(for one column left, one centered, and then 1 right)

Xirema

Oh, no no no, I don't mean justify the individual columns, I mean the entire table on the page.

David Coffron

oh.... nvm

i have no idea

Xirema

14:44

Like, I want the left margin of the table to align with the left margin of the rest of the text.

David Coffron

umm... you could a long empty columns until it lines up but that's the best I've got xD

(i.e. \text{ [spaces] })

GcL

@Xirema Ugh... non-centered tables. Lemme to dig through some tex files. I have a vague recollection of doing that with a custom float

@Xirema Hmm... looks like I cheated and did a multicol thing last time I did it.

You could try \justified instead \centering at the top of your float environment, but i don't think that affects the table or figure placement. Worth a quick try though.

Xirema

@GcL My knowledge of LaTEX/MathJAX is very piecemeal, what's a "float environment", in this context?

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