TRPG General Chat

David Coffron

15:02

@Xirema You don't want to.... stoke that flame

(although actually you might, it's a good literary discussion)

Xirema

> And Alexander Sighed, for there were no more puns to conquer.

I feel like "Vampires are a metaphor for the parasitic nobility" has become something of a background trope, i.e. nearly every work of Vampire fiction unconsciously uses it, but very few of those stories actually make that the subject of their text, as @BESW suggested.

It's difficult to escape though, because so much of the Aesthetic of Vampires/Vampirism is built around that metaphor.

David Coffron

@Xirema Although I can think of a few where it certainly is the centerpiece

Xirema

@DavidCoffron Indeed.

KorvinStarmast

@Xirema And they are usually very well dressed.

David Coffron

@KorvinStarmast And when you try to escape the standard aesthetic and go with "less-civilized" vampires, people just say they aren't "real vampires" and give them another name

Xirema

15:14

@DavidCoffron To be fair though, until Dracula, the semiotics of Vampire was "Zombie, but better dressed".

It is a term with a lot of flexibility.

David Coffron

I'm curious though. Any stories with vampires as an oppressed group?

Yuuki

@DavidCoffron ... I Am Legend?

David Coffron

@Yuuki /me cries in zombie

Xirema

I feel like "Vampires as Oppressed Group" ends up just being a microcosm of the Zootopia problem.

David Coffron

@Xirema Maybe in a "vampires are powerful creatures, but mages can beat them and vampires can't do magic" world...?

Rubiksmoose

15:20

@DavidCoffron doesn't Pratchett kinda sorta talk about that a bit?

maybe not...

BESW

@DavidCoffron Anita Blake, technically.

Xirema

One of three things happens:

- your Privileged Ruling Elites are the same as the Oppressed Minority, which... doesn't make sense.
- You inadvertently try to "excuse" Racism by implying that it was /originally/ a justified thing but /no longer/ makes sense (which is historical revisionism)
- You reinforce the idea that being an inherently dangerous/parasitic being is innate to minority groups.

.... none of which bode well for your metaphor.

AKA, the Zootopia Problem. XD

David Coffron

@Xirema hmph. hadn't considered that last bullet. Makes that story-idea rather useless for allegory

@Xirema Never seen the zootopia problem put as succinctly. I understand quite a bit better now.

Xirema

@DavidCoffron That's the one that most prominently sticks around today (think "Reefer Madness") so it's the one that a lot of people keep forgetting about—and as a result, keep putting in their stories without thinking about the implications.

KorvinStarmast

@Xirema Have you ever seen Reefer Madness? Saw it in B&W back in the 70's. I originally thought it was a farce, and was surprised to learn otherwise. (Granted, in the 70's casual pot smoking was omnipresent, and was a fixture at every rock concert I went to. You expected a contact high at most concerts ...

Quentin

15:33

@KorvinStarmast Have you seen the musical remake of it?

KorvinStarmast

@Quentin I have not. Was it done for the LULZ or as a more serious piece?

Quentin

youtube.com/watch?v=_X82zLM0oUY - oh very much for the LULZ

KorvinStarmast

Thanks, I'll pencil that in as a potential thing to do at the airport while I wait for a plane this weekend ...

Quentin

It's good enough that I've watched it more than a couple of times :)

KorvinStarmast

@Quentin Cool, I'll take that as a high end Rotten Tomatoes score. :)

Does an HNQ about Bigsby's Hand spells equal a "Handy Network Question" or not?

David Coffron

15:45

@KorvinStarmast Depends on the vote count

My goodness, 5e's underwater rules are severely lacking (preparing an underwater scene for a game late this week)

Xirema

@DavidCoffron I'm inclined to agree, but what specifically do you think you'll need adjudicated?

David Coffron

@Xirema I'm just struggling to find ways to make it feel different

Maybe it doesn't have to though shrug

Xirema

@DavidCoffron That's fair.

David Coffron

@Xirema Maybe the ability for lateral movement can be an exploratory mode. I can have different monsters at a few different heights (similar to one of the later fights in an adventure module)

Delioth

One thing that can help make the water feel different is presentation and trying to make the players feel like they're facing things which are at home in this environment while they're out of their element

I.e. if the players don't have magic items for good swimming and are bound to 15' of movement, while the sharks they're fighting can move 60'

Darkness can help too - if the water isn't perfectly clear, darkvision won't help you at all since it's particles in the water, limiting vision heavily (while the opposition sahuagin have eyes adapted to just this circumstance and can see fine)

That's the one I find shakes up my players more; messing with vision and movement are the two big things I try to leverage for different feels (since they're squishy, and they give the GM a lot of leeway either way to exploit the advantages, so you can push and pull how well enemies use those advantages to keep combat at the right difficulty level)

David Coffron

16:11

@Delioth I like that actually, especially since only 1 character has magic as a primary form of attack and none of them usually use ranged weapons that work underwater well

Delioth

Yeah, that's really the big one for general underwater stuff

It helps to reinforce that the characters aren't used to this environment, but their enemies are exclusive to this environment

Also helps make players use interesting tactics they're not used to (turtling to make a circle around casters isn't really standard procedure - usually it's lines, but those don't work as well when your enemies circling and can make a full cycle while you're struggling to face them)

Plus, you as GM have a lot of levers to pull on how effective the enemy is

If the players are struggling, maybe abandon the super-effective darkness>from a random direction>one chomp>darkness pattern, or tighten the circle to bring the enemies within striking distance, or (if you haven't actually revealed how many enemies there are yet) just quietly take a couple enemies away)

Delioth

17:19

So I decided to do some research lately because for some strange reason I decided the fae in my world are going to be based around Māori culture... which should be... interesting

As an aside: birds native to New Zealand were gigantic

But because of that, TIL that it's not easy to type an "a with macron" (ā) character

Best I've got is to actually tell Windows that I'm typing in Māori, which edits the ` key to give me a macron on the next character

GcL

18:16

@Delioth You're looking for diacritic keyboard shortcuts. There might be a settings toggle for those without having to switch languages.

Delioth

Looks like that setting and such got clobbered in Windows 10

And don't want to install more software to handle it (a la Autohotkey or other stuff that comes up)

switching keyboard language is pretty painless though, it's just Win+Space

And if I weren't in software I'd never need to change my keyboard language back to english (it just gets a little much when you have to type 2 ` to get one

KorvinStarmast

@DavidCoffron I guess my pun failed. It happens. :-(

GcL

@Delioth I think that means you're obligated to use a lesser know layout as your base and then layer on your own tweaks on top of it. /S

Delioth

100%. Honestly not going to worry about other tweaks because the switch is really painless (can type ā and be back to english in... 6 keypresses?), I just have to remember that it exists

GcL

18:39

I think I'm going to use that as an explanation to a programmer player for why one wizard can't directly read spells written by another. They keycodes values are mapped to a different, and possibly bespoke, key layout. "I see a lot of tab keys.... oh.. those are mapped to escape. This spell was written using vim."

David Coffron

@KorvinStarmast I liked it. I was just making a joke that some HNQs are not particularly handy imo.

Xirema

18:53

New assassination strategy for a city that confiscates weapons: cast Holy Weapon on a dagger, toss it aside, walk into the city up to the ambassador/noble/whomever you want to target after successfully passing a weapons check, and Bonus-Action deal 4d8 Damage and cause blindness in a 30 foot radius with no visible or perceivable effect.

GcL

19:05

Yeah.

Well, the perceivable effect that everyone but the caster is taking damage.

Oh, nm.. creatures of the caster's choice

Alternatively, just kill them in their sleep with dream.

David Coffron

19:24

@Xirema That is very ludicrous

I want to do it now

Hot RPG Questions

4

Q: If Wish Duplicates Simulacrum, Are Existing Duplicates Destroyed?

The simulacrum spell has a limitation, to try to prevent a caster from creating multiple duplicates: If you cast this spell again, any duplicate you created with this spell is instantly destroyed. However, the wish spell says: The basic use of this spell is to duplicate any other spell ...

6

Q: Where does the "burst of radiance" from Holy Weapon originate?

The spell Holy Weapon empower a "weapon you touch" to do extra damage (2d8 radaint per hit) and shed light (30 feet bright light, 30 feet dim light). It has one final feature (XGtE, p. 157, bold added): As a bonus action on your turn, you can dismiss this spell and cause the weapon to emit a ...

dnd-5e spells area-of-effect

Delioth

Huh, that's interesting. I love it

Now guarantee that you're not the first caster (in-universe) to think of doing this. How has this use of the spell affected history?

Xirema

@Delioth Well, you have to be at least a level 9 Cleric or level 17 Paladin to do it. So in Faerun's low-magic-in-5e lore, it can't have been something that has happened often.

Delioth

That seems like it's just guaranteeing that it's been used by a level-20 powder-keg-of-justice Paladin to dethrone a king

Like once

Aside: It could be neat if Excalibur was the property of a level-12ish cleric while stuck in the stone, who came back to use Holy Weapon at least daily

KorvinStarmast

@DavidCoffron I experience yet another sense of humor fail. Those are like death saves in D&D 5e. If I fail three in a row I die. 8^O

Delioth

19:33

As he uses the trick up his sleeve while adventuring, the sword flashes (but no-one takes damage or is blinded, because they're not within 30' of the caster)

Aside, @Xirema it's said that the wording will be fixed: twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/status/974021831517650944

KorvinStarmast

@Delioth A lot of weapons went off somewhere that they weren't intended to, probably.

David Coffron

@Xirema Or a College of Whispers bard at level 10 (Magical Secrets), which is the perfect fit for that specific type of assassin.

KorvinStarmast

@DavidCoffron yes; problem is that the devs probably didn't think anyone needed to be told that the magical effect was on the weapon ...

David Coffron

@KorvinStarmast But they should've made it explicit. Especially since you may want to enchant the weapon of your front-liner if you are a back line cleric. Seems more like an mistake than an oversight

@Delioth Or maybe not, it didn't show up in the November 2018 errata (which was 7 months after that tweet)

Although it is worth noting that it can be gamed a bit even if the wording is changed, by having an invisible creature (perhaps a Pact of the Chain familiar) hold it when you use your bonus action.

Flash of light just appears and blinds people

KorvinStarmast

@DavidCoffron When one reads a plain English version of that spell, one hardly needs further clarification that the subject weapon is the location of the enchantment, but when it comes to a certain class of power gamer, I suppose one does and WoTC ought to know their audience by now, eh?

GcL

19:43

@DavidCoffron my comment might have been confusingly worded. If so, ping me here.

KorvinStarmast

@DavidCoffron Yes, the familiar method looks rock solid.

At least crawford admits to the hole in the text ...

GcL

Yeah @DavidCoffron that wish and casting question is interesting. Does it count as if you cast both spells? or just wish? or just the duplicated spell?

David Coffron

@GcL Yeah; I'm torn on that part, I just took it out

GcL

Are there spells that have the wording "when you cast this spell..." ? If so, wish would skip that clause

Xirema

@DavidCoffron I don't think they use Errata for non-core books though?

Or if they do, I don't recall them having done so.

KorvinStarmast

19:48

@DavidCoffron I think we have a Q&A about Familiars in their pocket dimension, and if they can take stuff with them. Can my Sprite take a dagger with HW on it? I think they can ...

@Xirema They issued errata for a few published adventures ...

Yuuki

@doppelgreener Mud and lasers?

David Coffron

@Xirema They do (SCAG was errata'd in August 2017 for example). Maybe they are on a separate schedule though. Hadn't considered that.

Yuuki

Also, mech pilots in Anthem are called "lancers". Thought that was an amusing coincidence.

KorvinStarmast

@Xirema They issued errata for a few published adventures ...

David Coffron

47

Q: Can I use my familiar as a safety deposit box?

The Find Familiar spell states, in part: As an action, you can temporarily dismiss your familiar. It disappears into a pocket dimension where it awaits your summons. The question arising from this is: Is this pocket dimension different for every familiar in the world? Thus being a person...

dnd-5e familiars

Yuuki

19:51

Pocket dimensions don't necessarily need to have more space than exactly fits the familiar.

goodguy5

then put something INSIDE the familiar

like a chapstick

Yuuki

> This watch. This watch was on your daddy’s wrist when he was shot down over Hanoi.

doppelgreener

@Yuuki Their description. If the author's work on K6BD is anything to go by, that's gonna mean not shying away from messiness and people getting dirty (mostly literally).

Yuuki

@doppelgreener Ah, thought it was some kind of shorthand for the kind of technological setting (like "swords and magic").

GcL

@DavidCoffron magic circle wouldn't be a spell that wish could duplicate if the caster of wish were not also the caster of the duplicated spell.

Yuuki

19:56

I was thinking "mud and lasers" would be some kind of strange post-apocalyptic setting where there's advanced technology but nobody knows how to make it or even maintain it so there's mechs but also literally people throwing mud at each other.

doppelgreener

@Yuuki more like tone: you're not prancing through idyllic green fields which will remain unblemished

GcL

At least the reversal effect wouldn't be doable with wish

Teleportation circle might be a better example due to the wording "as you cast" involves drawing a circle where the shimmering portal shows up.

If the caster never technically casts teleportation circle, there is no circle drawn during casting and thus the shimmering portal doesn't have a circle to show up in.

Call lightning or others that require a choice of point "when you cast" wouldn't be able to be duplicated by wish.

David Coffron

@GcL You can still duplicate the effect of call lightning, but it wouldn't have the same effect

The first part happens just like in the casting:

> A storm cloud appears in the shape of a cylinder that is 10 feet tall with a 60-foot radius, centered on a point you can see 100 feet directly above you. The spell fails if you can't see a point in the air where the storm cloud could appear (for example, if you are in a room that can't accommodate the cloud).

GcL

@DavidCoffron So the duplicated spell effect is different? So like a xerox.. the copy just isn't as sharp?

Same with teleportation circle then?

It just doesn't work because you never drew a circle as you cast teleportation circle

Interesting. I wonder how many spells have effects that would have that interaction with wish duplication

David Coffron

20:12

@GcL Seems like you could still...

> On each of your turns until the spell ends, you can use your action to call down lightning in this way again, targeting the same point or a different one.

GcL

@DavidCoffron it's interesting to think about, and I don't know which way I'd come down on. So I made a question. rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/144884/…

David Coffron

with call lightning

GcL

Sure. You just lose one round on it.

Like forbiddence is only 3/4 borked, but planar binding would totally not work

V2Blast

@KorvinStarmast 126 damage, like it says at the end of the message :P

@Rubiksmoose It definitely makes crits more fun... Though with a sufficient number of damage dice, and with continuing exploders on the already "exploded" damage dice, it can lead to some crazy numbers

Yuuki

Armello uses exploding dice and it can be pretty fun.

But Armello's combat system is drastically different.

GcL

20:22

What's exploding dice?

Yuuki

@GcL If you crit, you roll that dice again.

doppelgreener

adding the new dice to the total

Yuuki

Armello is different because the stats are much more simplified. And also, it's a board game not a TRPG.

doppelgreener

then usually if any of those crit, do it again

and so on

Xirema

@GcL I haven't done enough digging to form a rigorous answer to that question, but just from a cursory glance, there's a lot of spells whose basic functionality becomes unpredictable/weird if casting a spell via Wish doesn't qualify, semiotically, as "casting the spell".

Chaos Bolt, for example, expressly says "a creature may only be targeted once per casting of the spell". If the spell was never cast at all, how many times may they be targeted? 0 times? Infinity times?

David Coffron

20:25

@Xirema Yeah... although I think that is just how it works RAW. You are in no way casting the spell.

GcL

@Xirema Weird doesn't mean it's not right. Also weird can be fun. Wish is inherently weird and reality breaking.

Xirema

Booming Blade and Green Flame Blade say that, as part of casting the spell, you have to make an attack with the weapon. If you Wish one of those spells into existence, does that mean the attack doesn't happen at all, and those spells have no effect?

GcL

@Xirema zero. Dividing by zero yields undefined.

So it's either zero or undef.

@Xirema Yeah.

They wouldn't be duplicable by wish... or they would but there would be no effective effect.

Similar to casting a spell at an invalid target. Like casting magic missile at the darkness.

doppelgreener

@Xirema You get one photo per ride on the rollercoaster. If you never went on the rollercoaster, do you get zero or infinity photos?

GcL

@doppelgreener In that case I would like to opt for infinity roller coasters.

The Oracle

20:31

2

Q: A thank-you to you all

I am retiring as a moderator this week. I made this decision with my heart a few months ago, made it with my head and let my fellow moderators know a few weeks ago, and now that the paperwork is sorted out, I'm letting the rest of the community know. The decision reaches back farther though, and...

discussion moderators

6

KorvinStarmast

@V2Blast was I supposed to open a link there? It was not apparent from what was seen in my chat window. The bottome number said 7.

BESW

@DavidCoffron Sanctuary, kinda.

Xirema

I'm trying to find an obvious example where something breaks in a non-trivial manner with this understanding of Wish.

> At Higher Levels. When you cast this spell using a spell slot of 2nd level or higher, both the temporary hit points and the cold damage increase by 5 for each slot level above 1st.

So this interpretation of Wish means that a spell duplicated by Wish always occurs at its lowest level, regardless of any other factors.

Yuuki

So you can't upcast with Wish?

Xirema

@Yuuki Not unless the wording is made impersonal for a specific spell.

V2Blast

20:43

@Xirema they've done errata for non-core books, I think they just wait until there's a sufficient number of corrections needed to actually bother putting out a whole new run of books with the corrected text

Xirema

> You and up to eight willing creatures within range project your astral bodies into the Astral Plane (the spell fails and the casting is wasted if you are already on that plane)— Astral Projection

Can't waste a casting if no casting occurred.

TapsForeheadMeme.jif

Yuuki

> You set an alarm against unwanted intrusion. Choose a door, a window, or an area within range that is no larger than a 20-foot cube. Until the spell ends, an alarm alerts you whenever a Tiny or larger creature touches or enters the warded area. When you cast the spell, you can designate creatures that won't set off the alarm. You also choose whether the alarm is mental or audible. - Alarm

V2Blast

@KorvinStarmast there was no link, there was just text after the image :P

Yuuki

So you can't set exceptions for Alarm.

Xirema

Actually, do any references to the second-person pronoun 'you' matter in this interpretation of Wish? If 'you' didn't cast the spell, then who is the 'you' specified in the spell description?

Someone_Evil

20:47

@Xirema I'm not sure if you are breaking wish or just english at this point

BESW

Oct 19 '18 at 8:00, by BESW

I'm inclined to go with "You're thinking about it harder than the devs did."

Xirema

@Someone_Evil Well, that's the semiotics of the spell descriptions: Whenever a spell says something like "you target 8 creatures of your choice", the 'you' refers to 'the person who cast the spell'. But if spells duplicated by Wish aren't casted, they simply "appear", then there is no 'you'.

David Coffron

@Xirema Another question that tackles issues with the woding of "At Higher Levels":

1

Q: How much do you heal with a Anstruth Harp's Cure Wounds

Anstruth Harp is a magic item that allows you to cast a 5th level version of cure wounds You can use your action to play the instrument and cast one of its spells Cure Wounds states (emphasis mine): When you cast this spell using a spell slot of 2nd level or higher, the healing increase...

dnd-5e spells magic-items

Someone_Evil

"I cast therefore I am"

Xirema

So anytime a spell refers to 'you', you'd have to disregard it.

@DavidCoffron Fair, although that question isn't adjudicating 'you', it's adjudicating 'using a higher level spell slot'. The item description clearly says that 'you' are casting the spell.

David Coffron

20:52

True

Different issue, same section of the text

Someone_Evil

@Xirema That won't leave a lot of spells as (meaningfully) duplicable

David Coffron

@Xirema Idk about that

The effect is duplicate, how does that change the usage of you?

Xirema

@DavidCoffron Like I said: 'you' semiotically means 'the person who cast the spell'. But Wish [in this interpretation] duplicates the effects of spells without them being cast.

David Coffron

@Xirema Then you just changes its reference. It now refers to the person originating the spell effect (which would be a valid interpretation with regular casting as well)

BESW

[amused] This looks like the same "problem" that D&D 4e had with death.

Xirema

20:58

@BESW What was that problem, exactly?

BESW

@Xirema A narrative term, not specifically defined by the game, is then used by the game as if it were a defined game mechanic.

Rubiksmoose

Welcome to RPG.se, sponsored by the Make a Wish Question foundation.

3

Xirema

@BESW Ah, yes.

Someone_Evil

@Rubiksmoose To be fair, it is the (usually) non-controversial/game-breaking half of wish this time

BESW

(in 4e, it was arguable that you still triggered 'when you start your turn' effects while dead, because the mechanical impact of death was never defined so always-on things like taking turns still happened. Strictly speaking.)

Xirema

21:01

Speaking of which...

We accidentally broke a Water Pitcher this week at my apartment, and I sent my Roommate to T̷̨̛̛̛̛̛̛̛̖͇̠͉͍̙̖̆̀̃͆́̈́̓̃͛̓́̀̾̎̈́͌̋͆̎̋̽̅̈́̒̈́̀͆́͐̑̀̆̽̔͌̂̂̐̀͑́́̿̄̀̋̉̒̈͐̃̓̍̊̍͛̃̔̍̅̈́̏͑̈́̽͐̏̈̿̈́̈́̓̊̄̉͆̈́͐̐̈͗̿̄̂͋̇̕̕͜͝͝͠͝͝͠͠͝͠͝͝͝͝ä̷̢̢̡̨̨̛̛̞͚͕̪̲̺̤̭̲̮͕͙̖͚͙̫̫͎̦͎̻͕͎̮͉̻̥̙̗̬̪͖̹͓́͗̽̒͒̈́͂̎͋͆̂͆̎̒͒̓̀̑̏͊̈̓͗̏͘͘͜͜͝͝ͅŗ̷̢̡̡̢̢̛̛̦͓̝͙͚̞̠̜̟͉̹̻̪̟̱̮͇͓̺̮͍̘͍͖̘̲̭̼͔̥̗̬̞̺̳͇̖̜̠͉̰̖̪̬̩̤̬͓͕̤̻̝̻͈̭͇̜͇̱̖͇̱͖͍̫̫̦͚̫͖̯̣̦̥͇̘̖̞̼̞̲̖̱͙̬̺̹̩̜̞̮̱̪̗̤̠̹͙̝͈̲̫͕̳͍͔̩̩̠͈͓̮́̍̓̉̂̂̑̏̿̾̿́͂̂͋̉̓̋͆̋͌̊̅̓̀̾̈́͐̅͊͐͑͊̃͌́̂̀͒̿͆̄́̊̾̅̽͗̔̏̐̅̈́́̇̅̑̌́̄̓̀́̌͌̔̈́̓͆̀̓͛͋̓̏̃̅̓̇̾̇͂̊͑̎̾̓͂͑͐̇̌́̀͐̿̃͋̉͂̊͛̏̉́̒̈́̈̓̐̇̀͒̀̉͌͌̅̆̓͋͑̔̓̏̈́̑̈́̕͘̕̚̕̚͜͠͠͝͠͝͠͠͝͝ͅͅͅg̵͑̍̈̅͛̈̏̃͑͊͆͂̿̅͂͐̉̔͝͝…

Rubiksmoose

@Someone_Evil hah! About time that half got it's due scrutiny ;) but I couldn't resist the joke.

doppelgreener

@BESW Of course the argument could be made that since death isn't defined whatsoever you could probably still move. But you're probably prone.

Glazius

@BESW Aren't there some epic destiny features you can only use when you're dead?

doppelgreener

Unless by being dead you're not dying anymore! In which case you can get up and do whatever.

BESW

@doppelgreener You're definitely prone, because we've defined what causes death and it includes lesser effects that cause being prone.

Rubiksmoose

21:02

I love when we get a run of interlocked or inspired questions about the same topic.

BESW

@Glazius No, the death-related Epic Destiny features trigger when you die.

Which is very important in 4e.

The whole thing is, of course, extremely silly. And even moreso in 5e which is explicitly okay with just figuring out what makes narrative sense and keeps the party happy.

Yuuki

Going back to weird realizations about cowboys...

Someone_Evil

@Yuuki I'm not sure whether you just ruined cowboys or witches..

Xirema

> You lose concentration on a spell if you cast another spell that requires concentration. You can't concentrate on two spells at once.— Concentration, PHB, pg. 203.

BESW

Hmmm I could run with this.

Xirema

21:07

Congratulations, Wish finally allows us to concentrate on two spells at the same time.

I found the Darkness + Shadow Blade cheese that my Shadow Sorcerer gimmick was missing.

Sir Cinnamon

You can't concentrate on two spells at once.

Yuuki

@SirCinnamon But Wishing a spell isn't a spell, you're just duplicating the effects.

Xirema

@SirCinnamon Yeah, but 'you' aren't concentrating on the Wished spell.

Yuuki

Or at least I think that's the argument.

V2Blast

@Someone_Evil yes

Sir Cinnamon

21:10

That seems suspect but ok

Yuuki

@SirCinnamon Well, the point is that this interpretation of Wish is a bit suspect, I think.

Xirema

@SirCinnamon Well, I'm doing proof-by-contradiction.

Sir Cinnamon

Oh okay - sorry, I only skimmed the above conversation

Xirema

I'm assuming that the logical interpretation of Wish is that the spells duplicated by it are not "cast", and trying to find examples which obviously disprove this.

I haven't found any; I've only found lots of examples of spells/rules that behave weirdly under this interpretation.

doppelgreener

@Someone_Evil made both better imo

Xirema

21:12

Which, at my table, would be enough to disqualify this reading—but that doesn't make my ruling RAW.

doppelgreener

Yuuki

@doppelgreener Was about to post that last part.

Someone_Evil

@Xirema Wish is the kind of spell that doesn't really fit into RAW without at least breaking something

Yuuki

> My backburner D&D character is a Warlock compelled by the Great Old One Y’ee Haww to live his days as a cowboy: riding on horseback, being the law ‘round these parts, and using a gun-shaped focus to take out evildoers one Eldritch Blast at a time.

*takes off cowboy hat* mother of god...

BESW

@Yuuki Vaqueros as a kind of routewitch would make a lot of sense!

Xirema

21:15

@Yuuki @doppelgreener I've been too distracted trying to parse out the nuances of Wish, but this is the greatest thing I've seen in weeks.

Oh, here's an interesting one.

doppelgreener

yeehaw

isn't it great

Xirema

> The effects of different spells add together while the durations of those spells overlap. The effects of the same spell cast multiple times don't combine, however. Instead, the most potent effect—such as the highest bonus—from those castings applies while their durations overlap, or the most recent effect applies if the castings are equally potent and their durations overlap.—PHB, pg. 205

What happens if one of the spells wasn't casted?

Carcer

what other mechanism do you have for getting the spell effect

Xirema

@Carcer See above: casting Wish may or may not involve the duplicated spell actually being 'Cast', mechanically speaking.

BESW

A routewitch, in McGuire's Ghost Stories, is a magic-user who gets their power from the open road. They can't settle down without losing their power, and their magic is related to travel, lodging, hospitality, speed and distance, all the things the road values.

Carcer

21:19

@Xirema if you want a better one, "Many items, such as potions, bypass the casting of a spell and confer the spell's effects, with their usual duration."

Xirema

@Carcer Hoo boy.

Carcer

entertaining hypothetical rules-lawyering at least

Yuuki

@BESW Oath of Wanderlust?

Someone_Evil

@Carcer This would still be covered by the broader rule (DMG p.252, Errata) on duplicate effects

Carcer

@Someone_Evil well, sure, if you read it sensibly

But strictly, is a "Potion of Haste" not named differently to the spell "Haste"?

BESW

21:24

@Yuuki Kinda, yeah. Routewitches know the stories and the lore, how to travel safe and how to bring a journey to an unexpected end. They understand that the road changes you when you travel it, that the road will last longer than the ones who walk it. They generally don't make bargains with the road, because only a truly desperate person negotiates with the crossroads.

Carcer

And it confers the effects of a spell, not the spell itself. A Potion of Haste would be a specific game feature that just happens to provide the same benefits as the totally legally distinct spell Haste.

BESW

Routewitches are less "I got power in exchange for never stopping" and more "Because I never stop, I have access to power."

If a routewitch goes on a non-stop cross-country journey, that's like performing a massive ritual ceremony to gather power for a major spell.

KorvinStarmast

@Yuuki Works for me; What kind of steed?

BESW

(I'm talking about the Sparrow Hill/Ghost Roads series by Seanan McGuire. It's an urban-legends contemporary fantasy series.)

Stackstuck

I really should read more of her stuff.

BESW

21:32

Her Ghost Roads/InCryptids books are fun reading, like popcorn recreation but more clever.

I'd love to roll them into an RPG some day but that would probably require having players who've already read at least one of her books.

Glazius

...so a character type with famous examples literally named Ranger and Paladin has to be some kind of primary caster?

Yuuki

Huh?

Carcer

context plz

Stackstuck

@BESW have you read the Velveteen series

BESW

Not yet.

Glazius

21:38

Cowboys. The Lone Ranger, and The Man Called Paladin.

Carcer

I feel you might be lensing D&D a bit too hard

BESW

Yeah, nobody's saying D&D here.

Yuuki

Also, no one is saying cowboys have to be witches.

BESW

A routewitch reading of cowboys-as-witches would be nigh impossible in D&D, for example.

Yuuki

There's just a lot of amusing similarities.

BESW

21:43

And I am really liking cowboys as a routewitch variant. It makes a lot of sense. Rangewitches!

They do a LOT of traveling, but mostly along set paths. Back and forth from range to city. Patroling perimeters to establish and reinforce wards. Sharing lore with their ~~coven~~ company over a bubbling pot, singing invocations of wishes and desire.

Xirema

> This chapter provides the rules for casting spells. Different character classes have distinctive ways of learning and preparing their spells, and monsters use spells in unique ways. Regardless of its source, a spell follows the rules here. — Spellcasting, Player's Handbook, pg. 201

Right at the top of the chapter.

Carcer

but is conferring a spell's effects the same as being affected by the spell?

Xirema

There's two ways to interpret that, IMO: one way is to say that all spells obey these rules, regardless of their source (i.e. being 'Cast' or not being 'Cast'). The other way is to infer that all Spells are 'Cast', regardless of their source.

Carcer

well, there's a third way as well, which is that these rules are not written that precisely and nobody gave thought to this kind of rather contrived distinction

BESW

Oct 19 '18 at 8:00, by BESW

I'm inclined to go with "You're thinking about it harder than the devs did."

Yuuki

21:50

I mean, it's pretty easily solved if we go back to "when you use Wish to duplicate a spell, you cast that spell".

Xirema

@BESW This comment is going to age like a fine wine, I suspect. XD

user15026

@BESW yessss they are definitely related to routewitches.

trogdor

what is a routewitch?

Carcer

40 mins ago, by BESW

A routewitch, in McGuire's Ghost Stories, is a magic-user who gets their power from the open road. They can't settle down without losing their power, and their magic is related to travel, lodging, hospitality, speed and distance, all the things the road values.

trogdor

ah

ok then

Carcer

21:59

ha-hah! I quoted BESW before BESW could quote BESW

I am BESW now

trogdor

be prepared for the endless challengers

the grueling work

and now you have to host me

:P

Carcer

I have regrets

trogdor

I thought so

BESW

trogdor

XD

Yuuki

22:04

@Carcer BCarcer East South West?

user15026

@BESW oh wow little friend, that's...certainly a face :P

trogdor

22:22

The cute fuzzy internet..... Thing is pretty great

Hot RPG Questions

9

Q: Does duplicating a spell with wish count as casting that spell?

Premise Inspired by the line of reasoning in this answer. There are a number of spells that have wording "when you cast" or "as you cast" included. Specifically, some effects have predicates like "when you cast" in order to come into effect. If wish does not count as casting the a duplicated...

dnd-5e spells wish

trogdor

@HotRPGQuestions I definitely don't miss this type of D&D shenanigans

Shalvenay

5e question: for two NPCs with identical statblocks, what's the simplest way to simulate a melee combat between them, or am I better off rolling the full encounter behind the DM screen?

trogdor

Flip a coin?

Carcer

I mean, you could assume perfectly average results and whichever one wins initiative survives with a handful of HP.

trogdor

22:33

You have two people with the same stats and want a randomly determined winner, simplest thing is a coin flip

V2Blast

@Shalvenay I figured someone would have made a combat simulator for this, given that they exist for mobile games like Fire Emblem Heroes

I was right

extras.matteoferla.com/dnd

Carcer

well them having a fight has mechanical consequences beyond which one of them wins, trogdor

you could be caring about how many of their expendable resources are consumed in the process

BESW

I think there's a good argument to be made that in D&D-like games mechanics are for player-facing interactions. If the GM's playing with themself, mechanics are less necessary, even less useful.

Since the point of a game is the interaction between GM and players, just decide whatever NPC-v-NPC outcome will create the most satisfying opportunity for GM/player interactions.

Carcer

so, there was previous discussion we had about player expectations for world consistency here also

Shalvenay

I was thinking of some sort of Monte Carlo approach, but I wasn't sure what the probabilities would be

Carcer

22:36

@Shalvenay

bleh

what's the motivation, anyway

V2Blast

another one here: vue-rpg.now.sh/# (it seems to simulate individual battles, turn by turn, as opposed to running combats en masse and giving you the overview)

(some background details on that one here: kisdigital.com/2018/08/24/vuejs-dnd-combat-simulator)

Shalvenay

@Carcer basically, I have a "Battle Royale" of sort with various NPCs encountering each other

(as well as the PC or PCs in the mix)

trogdor

@Carcer tis true

V2Blast

22:50

theplayerstribune.com/en-us/articles/kyle-korver-utah-jazz-nba

2

An interesting article I came across, as someone who has never really watched basketball:

It's about privilege, and racism - it talks about some incidents related to NBA players, but it's a broader point

btw, is there a difference between the attributes and ability-scores tags? To me, it seems like the latter is just stated (in the tag wiki) as being D&D-specific, though they seem to refer to similar topics

linksassin

23:39

@V2Blast I agree they refer to fundamentally the same thing but different game systems use different terms for them. D&D questions should use ability-scores because that is the correct name for them in that system. Attributes would be correct for some systems but we don't actually seem to have a question where that is the case. (Not sure about Dark Heresy ones).

trogdor

I do think at the very least it's a bit of a grey area

linksassin

Perhaps there is a case for synonymising them. Keep ability-scores as the main tag I think because it is more widely used. And for a D&D question I would never think 'attribute' when tagging

trogdor

I would lean towards only having one tag but using the wrong term for a system is probably worse

More confusing

BESW

Hard disagree; "attributes" covers a MUCH wider range of mechanical concepts than "ability scores."

linksassin

I think Edge-of-the-Empire (and a lot of others) call them attributes though and you could make the same argument there.

BESW

23:43

In "Blood on the Trail," a wagon train has attributes like Size, Supplies, and Morale.

linksassin

So it is probably better to leave them separate as is. So that each system can use the correct tags/terms for their system. The D&D questions should be re-tagged though

BESW

Yes. I strongly encourage using a system's actual terms when tagging for questions about those concepts.

(BTW, "attributes" is also used in some editions of D&D to describe the things for which one has ability scores.)

trogdor

Yeah I agree

I don't like that we need two tags that are so similar and I like attributes better, but it's just not the proper term for some games

BESW

In other editions, "attributes" are the things effected by one's ability score like skill modifiers.

trogdor

But even in those a distinction is made

BESW

23:48

Yuuup.

linksassin

There are a bunch of attributes questions for 5e though and they are definitely wrong. We should re-tag them.

trogdor

Seems like a good idea

BESW

We tag what we know, and try not to assume that our knowledge generalizes.

trogdor

Actually I don't see any searching the tag

linksassin

We should probably update the tag wiki for attributes to remind people about the ability-score tag and visa-versa

trogdor

23:51

?

linksassin

@trogdor I have just fixed a few.

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