TRPG General Chat

12:05 AM

I'm torn between "this is a discussion prompt" and "someone could write up a really good experience-based answer that describes what challenges different types of/extents of homebrewing present." Stackizens: I really hope we see some of the latter; many of the former would argue that the question itself is too broad or unfocused. — nitsua60 ♦ 3 mins ago

Feel free to weigh in here or there if you think I'm off base.

trogdor

BURNINATE everything trogdor forever

Also I am not a crook

Get in da chopper!!!!

nitsua60

(I think there are references flying over my head at light speed or troggy's drunk and stuck in a closet with his Stack app locking up his phone. Or both.)

Remember that time somebody could only type punctuation?

trogdor

No I am fine

Mostly

Which ones didn't you get? @nitsua60

nitsua60

@trogdor Well, I get BURNINATE.

After that it gets pretty fuzzy.

Mike Q

Nixon, Predator

trogdor

12:10 AM

Lol

Yeah the first one was my campaign speech

The second was a famous Nixon quote

And the third was Predator

Indeed

nitsua60

Okay. So they're all references I know. I just hadn't warmed up/stretched enough to make those leaps.

In competition, you can only play a name if you know who the person is. No fair saying "Frank ... Johnson. That sounds like a real person! Let me just Google him real quick."

trogdor

If I get stuck somehow only being able to communicate in one really weird specific way I doubt I would be so lucky as to get the way I barf out words already

Mike Q

@Shalvenay [wave]

trogdor

@nitsua60 fair enough

Happens to me every once in a while too

Especially in the morning

Miniman

@nitsua60 Maybe I'm becoming jaded, but lately it seems like even the most straightforward of questions are being treated as discussion prompts by a large chunk of our userbase. Something like this...I'm skeptical that leaving it open will have good outcomes.

Mike Q

12:22 AM

@Miniman It's a valid question but it's posed kind of awkwardly

It's kind of like the Ship of Theseus problem, but for D&D

Miniman

@MikeQ Well, sort of.

The trivial answer is "as far as you want".

But as nitsua says, an interesting answer would talk about what consequences it has for a game.

nitsua60

12:46 AM

@Miniman I've definitely swung wildly from jaded to faithful and back many times during modship....

I answered a few questions this week, which I barely do any more =\

trogdor

Yeah I imagine being a mod has certain effects on your outlook on the site

nitsua60

52

Q: Revisiting the "Hot Network Questions" feature, what are our shared goals for having it?

Some things happened yesterday that caused a need for us to (quickly) remove a site's eligibility to contribute to the list of hot network questions. For those of you not familiar with what we've come to call the 'HNQ' list, please visit the link; the list of questions shown as 'hot' on stackexch...

@trogdor I think it's that I end up looking at a lot more posts than I necessarily would have otherwise. Not just the ones that interest me as a gamer, but also the ones that catch my eye as a moderator.

trogdor

Mmm

Either way it's one of many reasons I'm at least currently uninterested in being a mod

If I was going to take it up anywhere though, it would be here

But not right now

nitsua60

2:04 AM

So this homebrew makes me go cross-eyed because of the complexity. But how does it compare to a warlock and their invocations, frankly? (They're my least-proficient class.)

Joel Harmon

@nitsua60 Well, they did manage to copy and paste the ASI section. From what little I've seen of homebrew, that's a surprisingly effective bar to exceed.

For 'Helpful', see the SCAG Rogue Masermind's level 3 ability, which is that plus an extended range on use in combat.

'a skill that you know' is ambiguous; should probably be 'proficient in'

For 'Knowledgable', see Fighter Battle Master's level 7 "know your enemy", which takes longer but is more flexible

Without checking each one, it seems many of the abilities were taken from other classes, give or take two levels. The glaring difference I see is this homebrew gives 3-21 Talents, where Warlock gives 2-8 Invocations.

Side note: full proficiency bonus to initiative rolls seems really good.

Ender Look

2:48 AM

Is good Healing Word in D&D 5e? It heals much less than Cure Wounds

nitsua60

@JoelHarmon Yeah, I noticed that similarity and thought (in quick succession) "that's way better than the fighter's ability," "but the fighter's ability really sucks, so maybe it's fine."

Joel Harmon

@EnderLook It's a bonus action and has a range of 60', as opposed to a regular action and touch.

nitsua60

@EnderLook IIRC it's bonus action and range

CTWind

@EnderLook Healing word is arguably better than cure wounds. It takes a bonus action to cast, so you still have your main action left. In-combat healing is mostly inefficient at low levels- enemies can put out damage as fast or faster than you can heal it- so combat healing is best used to get someone up from 0, and healing word is one of the best spells at that.

Joel Harmon

@nitsua60 So when the Barbarian is surrounded by enemies and just went down, Healing Word is your spell.

Ender Look

2:52 AM

Is worthy have both Cure Wounds and Healing Word or shall I choose only one?

Joel Harmon

@EnderLook What do you have the most fun doing, and what class are you (or is this a feat thing?)

CTWind

Depends on your other spell options. Level 1 damage spells are (mostly) a little weak, so having both can be nice since cure wounds is obviously better for out of combat healing. But it is a bit redundant to have both, especially if you have good other utility spell options like bless that would benefit the party.

Ender Look

@JoelHarmon I am thinking in being Cleric, maybe a Life Cleric

Life cleric already give me Cure Wounds

Joel Harmon

@EnderLook In that case, recall that spell selection is not permanent; you can fully swap out one long rest to the next.

Ender Look

@JoelHarmon Yes, but it still consumes one of my learned spells. Shall I have both?

CTWind

2:58 AM

I could see the arguments for having both as a life cleric. Their healing is much more potent, and having the best tool for the moment may be worthwhile spending an extra spell preparation slot on healing word. But you'll have plenty of time to feel it out and swap healing word out if you don't feel it's been useful.

Joel Harmon

@EnderLook Life clerics can get into the thick of things with their heavy armor, but I think I'd still like the flexibility of healing an ally on the other side of the battlefield and still bonking the guy next to me with my mace.

Ender Look

Ok, thanks

Can Clerics learn new spells like Wizards does in their free time?

Joel Harmon

@EnderLook No. Re-read that section.

PHB 58, Spellcasting, Preparing and Casting Spells. Any given day, you can prepare any spells you like from the cleric list (subject only to count limits).

CTWind

Clerics have their full spell list available to choose from when choosing the subset they have prepared until the next long rest. There's no extra spells for them to learn.

Ender Look

With learn new spells I mean like Wizards does with they books. They can write a new spell on their book. Clerics can't, right?

Joel Harmon

3:04 AM

"choose a number of cleric spells equal to your Wisdom modifier + your cleric level (minimum of one spell). The spells must be of a level for which you have spell slots."

Shalvenay

@EnderLook clerics can't because they do not need to to begin with

Ender Look

Ah, that is a pity. Thanks

CTWind

You can't learn non-cleric spells, if that's what you're asking. (Save for ones domain spells automatically prepare for you)

(Wizards also can't learn non-wizard spells, even if they get a scroll for it)

Joel Harmon

And woah, hold on a freakin' second, I think that quote means a multiclass cleric 1 fullcaster X can prepare higher level cleric spells, because he's got higher level slots.

Ender Look

Can a cleric teach to a wizard spells? I mean, only the spells shared by Wizards and Clerics.

Joel Harmon

3:06 AM

(unless of course the multiclass rules prove me wrong, which I'm now looking into).

CTWind

@JoelHarmon No, the multiclassing rules explicitly say you prepare spells for each class as if you were single-classed in that class.

Ender Look

@CTWind No, I mean. Can I hire another Cleric to teach me new spells? Or buy, I don't know, a cleric spellbook?

CTWind

@EnderLook You already can select from every single cleric spell when preparing your spells anew each day. There's no new spells to be taught. All of them are already available to you.

Joel Harmon

@CTWind Yeah, we're right; I was wrong.

Ender Look

What???? I don't understand you. Does cleric already know all their spells?? That means that in a long rest I can change my prepared spells by any other of the Cleric PHB???

CTWind

3:09 AM

@EnderLook Yes. When you rest, you can pick your prepared spell list from any spells under the cleric spell list. Unlike the wizard, you don't have a separate subset of spells you know that you prepare from.

Ender Look

@CTWind OMG. I thought I had to choose! Thanks you very much!!

That is great, every day I can try new spells combinations

nitsua60

^^

Ender Look

Is useful or necessary for a Cleric has Medic Proficiency?

Shalvenay

@EnderLook not particularly, no

Ender Look

Ok, thanks

@CTWind But about cantrips, I must to choose a permanent set, right?

nitsua60

3:13 AM

(a) Medicine checks may come up for more than just stabilizing people, though stabilization's probably 95% of where I've seen it used; (b) spare the dying, if you choose it, moots the stabilization drive to take Medicine.

CTWind

Yeah, those are permanent and you know a specific # of them.

Joel Harmon

@EnderLook in edge cases, yes. There are no cantrips that give HP, so if the cleric is out of spells and potions, but still needs to tend the wounded...

Ender Look

@CTWind Ok, thanks

@JoelHarmon But that consumes a healing kit, right? I don't like much consumables....

Ah, could you please explain to me how much money a character earn? Spells and items are always very expensive but when I read in forum they said that they aren't so expensive. So how much gold a PC earn per mission/dungeon/campaing/day/whatever?

Joel Harmon

@EnderLook A Healer's Kit can be used to stabilize the dying and is consumable. A medicine check lets you do that without consuming anything, or also diagnose an illness.

Ender Look

@JoelHarmon Ok

Joel Harmon

3:17 AM

@EnderLook If you have the DMG, there are Treasure Tables and Downtime Activities you can look at. However, it's ultimately up to your DM

Ender Look

Is there always a treasure per dungeon?

Joel Harmon

@EnderLook It's up to the DM, but the DMG has guildelines that point to "yes".

Ender Look

Ok

Joel Harmon

No, I'm wrong, it's per encounter not per dungeon. However, most DMs I know will backload treasure for multiple encounters onto the end boss for the dungeon (if you like to think of it that way).

Ender Look

@JoelHarmon Interesting

Also, does enemies has always armor. Forge cleric can smelt them...

With an small treasure, how much ammunition for weapons can I buy?

Joel Harmon

3:21 AM

@EnderLook Well, suppose you're running around a city investigating a murder. When you get annoying, the Big Bad sends some mooks after you, armed with iron swords and carrying lunch money. Not exactly the loot their encounter table dictates.

Mike Q

@JoelHarmon `The treasure is the friendships formed along the way

Ender Look

@JoelHarmon I haven't thought in that

Joel Harmon

@EnderLook No, many wild creatures will not have any 'armor' at all, but may have scales, shells, hide, and other natural armor.

(though I admit I'm unfamiliar with Forge Clerics, I'm confident enough in my D&D and English to say I'm not wrong about the uselessness of non-metal armours here)

Ender Look

You conduct an hour-long ritual that crafts a nonmagical item that must include some metal: a simple or martial weapon, a suit of armor, ten pieces of ammunition, a set of tools, or another metal object. The creation is completed at the end of the hour. The thing you create can be something that is worth no more than 100 gp. As part of this ritual, you must lay out metal, which can include coins, with a value equal to the creation.

The metal irretrievably coalesces and transforms into the creation at the ritual's end, magically forming even nonmetal parts of the creation. The ritual can create a duplicate of a nonmagical item that contains metal, such as a key, if you possess the original during the ritual.

@JoelHarmon ^ That is the description

I love that because if I find enemies with armor, I can have free ammo for range weapons!

Joel Harmon

@EnderLook If you have the time, sure.

Ender Look

3:28 AM

But I think I will choose Life domain. The other option is the Arcane domain which can choose 2 Wizard cantrips, some low tier spells, and one 6º, 7º, 8º and 9º (Wish!) Wizard spells

Joel Harmon

On gold piece values for components: oots.wikia.com/wiki/This_Never_Happens_to_Jiminy_Cricket

Ender Look

Well, anyway, it's really late. I should go to bed. Bye and thanks for all this useful information!

Joel Harmon

@EnderLook You're welcome!

JuneShores

3:39 AM

Howdy.

Joel Harmon

@JuneShores How do you do?

JuneShores

I do alright. Feeding my fandom addictions tonight by outlining a fanfic.

BESW

[wave] Long time!

trogdor

Indeed

Shalvenay

3:54 AM

hey there @JuneShores, how're things going?

JuneShores

Going sleepy.

New medication has me drowsy all the time.

trogdor

Sounds less than optimal

JuneShores

It is very much less than optimal.

trogdor

:(

I've been offered medications for a couple of things but it's always scared me more than the things the medication was for

JuneShores

4:13 AM

Yeah, that was my feeling too for a long time.

trogdor

I mean, don't get me wrong, I know some people who have medications that do what they need it to

But I also know people who have given up at least one because it had unmanageable side effects

Shalvenay

hey there @Cascabel, welcome to the RPG.SE lair :)

JuneShores

Oh, yeah, but thankfully my medicine is pretty mild. Worst I've gotten is a mildly itchy rash.

trogdor

Tis fair

If it works the way it needs to that's great

I just don't feel like I need medication for,.. the things I've been offered it for

I was a little surprised it was even offered really

JuneShores

Yeah, that's fair.

trogdor

4:21 AM

I've had 4 different,... sets of tests I guess is the best way to describe it

2,.... Maybe 3 but the first one was a while ago so I really don't remember,... I was offered to try something for a diagnosis

But I felt, and at least for now still currently feel like the possible side effects would be more to cope with than the thing itself

And beyond that I'm not big on stuff that can cause behavioral changes to begin with

JuneShores

I understand. For me, I've been stuck with some pretty damaging brain chemistry and habits and I feel like I need the medicine to get myself on track.

trogdor

Very fair

If I felt like it was actually damaging my life at all I would definitely consider it more strongly

Mike Q

Is it damaging to the countryside too

trogdor

But it's mostly just me thinking in a different way than most people

Mike Q

If you have a burninating sensation make sure to call your doctor

trogdor

4:34 AM

I find it to be a minor obstacle sometimes but it's also helpful in some ways

@MikeQ har har sir

JuneShores

i need sleep. Y'all have a nice night.

trogdor

Gnight

Miniman

5:39 AM

Gah. Can we just ban homebrew evaluation questions already?

BESW

@Miniman Make a case for it!

Miniman

@BESW Right now it would be: they suck, and I'm fed up with them.

BESW

I'm sure you can support that with evidence.

Miniman

But yeah, at some point I might have a go at a meta post. Hopefully a more articulate one.

kviiri

6:20 AM

@Miniman Hey, I've been thinking about this too

BESW

It'd be a shame, because obviously we have the capacity to handle them.

kviiri

I think homebrww

Stupid phone

I think homebrew evaluation is excellent at its best because it allows true system masters to really show their work.

BESW

Yup.

kviiri

But that said, I do feel bad when awesome people spend a lot of time to make awesome answers for homebrew that's basically random stuff thrown together with a glaring lack of forethought (or total disregard for the usual notions of balance even at its fuzziest).

Miniman

@BESW The thing is, I'm not sure we do.

We don't do iterative design, and we don't do collaborative answers.

So they tend to get a bunch of answers pointing out a few of the problems.

If it's small enough, or someone is awesome enough, we get one answer that covers everything, but it's becoming the exception, not the rule.

@kviiri And also, we definitely have a quality problem.

Good quality homebrew lends itself to shorter, better answers that require real expertise.

Bad homebrew generally requires answers that go through the post like a checklist, pointing out the problems with each feature.

kviiri

6:37 AM

Yeah. We might want to amp up quality controls up a bit. I think we should at least zealously delete answers that don't show their work regarding the overall evaluation. (ie make clear that just "it's ok" or "it's unbalanced" won't cut it)

I have a largely irrational dislike for homebrew evaluation requests. I can't really explain it beyond what I already said regarding effort spent writing the question vs effort spent making the answer.

Of course I can't and won't demand site policy changes based on just what I feel, but there's a real need for quality controls in the answer department at least. I'm on the edge whether it's needed on the question side or whether voting will suffice.

BESW

@Miniman Yeah, it's definitely brushing up against the existential "does the SE format really work for RPG questions?" issue.

Mike Q

I think the class/archetype/(group of options) homebrew analysis questions are too speculative, and tend to be received poorly when they're too wordy or complicated

But there's definitely a subset of homebrew questions with sufficiently narrow scope that tend to be received a bit better

kviiri

6:54 AM

Were it up to me (and I don't claim this is the best/fairest solution, it's just what strikes me fancy) we'd have a couple of "master questions" on "What should I take into account when homebrewing a [class/race] into DnD 5e?" and homebrew'd be closed and pointed towards those, unless addressing them requires something not covered by the "master answer"

(be back soon)

CTWind

7:44 AM

https://rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/133950/how-do-the-social-elements-of-a-dwarven-clan-city-work/133972#133972

Are my comments here a reasonable set of objections, or am I totally overthinking this whole thing? Because I feel like I'm just missing something obvious with my whole question, and I'm worried about it.

BESW

I'd suggest that people look into real-life practices of societies based on the extended family unit, but I somehow doubt that the devs did that either so it wouldn't help with sussing out intent.

Carcer

@CTWind largely I think your misconception is about the size of a clan

CTWind

@Carcer Possibly. I don't get much of an impression of what size they're supposed to be, excepting the bits from SCAG that imply that some dwarven cities/towns belong(ed) to an entire clan.

Carcer

yeah. Basically, a clan can be very large.

CTWind

Right. So my understanding is that clans have a population the size of a small city, so there's enough diversity and separation there to support intraclan marriage. The books aren't just painting a clear enough image of that to confirm it to me.

BESW

7:58 AM

I live in a place where extended families sometimes live in different houses on shared compounds, and are also part of larger clan-like structures which encompass multiple compounds in multiple villages.

Carcer

I'd have gesticulated normally around the scale of a large village rather than a city but yeah

CTWind: the other thing perhaps to keep in mind is that dwarves live for a very long time and have very long generations relative to humans

CTWind

I suppose I should clarify the question with exactly what I just said, to clear up what I'm picturing.

BESW

I'm inclined to go with "You're thinking about it harder than the devs did."

5

Carcer

new blood might join the clan every hundred years and that's probably enough to ensure some diversity

CTWind

Also possible!

BESW

8:00 AM

It's my experience that this is usually true of D&D racial splat.

CTWind

I'd just hope that somewhere along the lines of 5 editions of forgotten realms (or whatever edition it started in, I suppose. Not quite up to that depth of trivia.) it'd be fleshed out sufficiently >_<

BESW

Nah, it's been enfleshed and unfleshed and refleshed multiple times each edition.

At this point it's more like Convincing Flesh Substitute™.

CTWind

Alright, well, at least edited with my exact understanding to hopefully make my stance clear.

BESW

Hooray!

CTWind

Aww, I didn't mean for my comments to make Theik delete their answer.

Well, I guess ignore my above link sub-10k rep people >_>

doppelspooker

10:44 AM

Good morning, friends! Are there any D&D 3.5e experts around in chat? o/

Carcer

I have been described by myself as a 3.5e expert! or at least I usually have a reasonable idea what I'm on about. I'm no KRyan

@doppelspooker what's your quandry

Miniman

@doppelspooker No, there's no Premonition spell.

Carcer

oh I see

Miniman

There's a Foresight spell, but its effects are completely different.

BESW

[casts admonition on premonition]

doppelspooker

10:51 AM

@Miniman ok, thanks, that was exactly what I— waaaiiiit a minute

Miniman

@doppelspooker Heh.

doppelspooker

Ok I'm not sure what to do with that question.

Carcer

interesting query

well

doppelspooker

"please tell me how this plays out in actual play the spell has literally no definition or design for because it was made for a video game"

Carcer

an answer that says "this spell doesn't actually exist in the tabletop" probably okay

doppelspooker

10:52 AM

I'm 60/40 on leave it open to let someone tell them that versus close it as POB

@Carcer glad it's not just me thinking that then!

Miniman

Personally, I stand by "translating game mechanics into 'real life' is purely a matter of opinion" - even if there was more description, the best we could do would be to read it back to him.

Btw, @doppelspooker, I'd be interested in your opinion of the discussion that started here.

BESW

@doppelspooker Does it count as a request for homebrew design?

doppelspooker

@Miniman Are you interested in my stance on those topics?

Miniman

@doppelspooker Yep - both as a mod and personally.

doppelspooker

Making a case on meta is definitely the appropriate way to make change here. However, I'd hope or prefer we can keep those questions. I err toward RPG.SE should try to be as many things as it can that work in the Q&A model until they don't work. If homebrew evaluation is something you dislike, don't engage in it. If it's causing material problems or malfunctioning generally, that's a reason to ban the topic.

Also—

4 hours ago, by Miniman

We don't do iterative design, and we don't do collaborative answers.

We do do iterative design. Let me dig up a meta.

9

Q: How can I ask a good homebrew review question?

I'd like to post some homebrew material I've made, and I want people to review it so I can ensure it will work well. How can I ask a good question like this? What are our guidelines for handling these questions well as an asker?

support questions homebrew

I asked this question to see what people thought would work well. I suggested an approach borrowing from other sites on the network which do iterative review (mainly code review) and people seem to support that fairly well.

Miniman

11:16 AM

@doppelspooker People support it as an approach, but no-one actually does it.

doppelspooker

5

Q: Is this homebrew Dryad Sapling race (including its subraces) balanced compared to the official published races? (version 2)

I've done my best to address the concerns from the answers to my original question about my homebrew dryad sapling race. How does this look? What I'm looking for is whether this is balanced vs the PHB races and if not, how to fix it to make it balanced. Race: Dryad Sapling Statistics...

dnd-5e homebrew balance races

We've only had this meta in existence for 3 months. Before then it was:
1. person asks for review
2. person gets review
3. person edits post
4. edit is rolled back, person is told not to do that.
5. ????? where do we go from here if we want more review????

Step 5 is why I created that meta and suggested iterative questions.

Homebrew review is not super common, and it's up to people to actually decide they want review on version 2, and it's also up to people to tell them they can do this.

"Nobody does this"—so make sure they are aware that they can. Point them to this meta, link directly to it. Ask them to post a version 2 for follow-up if you see them editing their post. If they don't do that, that's also fine, they've chosen not to.

"People don't ask the second version" is not, however, a problem for us. It's just an absence of someone choosing to ask that question.

Miniman

@doppelspooker That's a really good point. Probably better to wait a while and see how things go before thinking about raising the issue again.

doppelspooker

11:31 AM

Yeah, this is very new still.

And if that meta hasn't been getting shared .... it kinda should be? I mean what's the point of having a meta about how to handle this well if it never gets referenced

I gotta take a broad strokes approach most of the time because it's all I have time and energy for usually, so I won't be able to dive into individual homebrew questions to share it unless my attention gets drawn to them or they stand out to me

So if the portion of the community engaged in homebrew review wants them to work well, they gotta point querents to that question so that people can learn about how to have htem work well. And if the iterative approach doesn't work, the floor is open for alternative takes or revisions.

BESW

If you want to do a meta now, it'd be about how to make sure that meta gets a fair shakes trial.

doppelspooker

@BESW btw this analogy was horrifying and hilarious to read

BESW

Mission accomplished.

doppelspooker

11:47 AM

@Miniman BTW, some things I'd invite you to do, as much as you're interested and willing and see a need for it:
- If that meta question or answer are missing anything important, please feel free to edit or add other answers. I didn't ask it to say my piece so much as to give homebrew questions (and those interested in them) something to work with and to prompt them to work on advice in that area as—please use it if there's more to be said!
- Point people to that meta sometimes even if they haven't revised the question, just to let them know they can ask a version 2 as follow-up iteration.

The low view count on that meta makes me suspect I just wrote it, got some votes, and then nobody ever linked to it or anything, which kinda sucks because linking it to people so they could understand how to work with us on their homebrew was the whole reason it was made.

Trish

1:11 PM

hmmm, a question tagged Rokugan should usually be tagged L5R, right?

I mean, for example rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/58743/…

doppelspooker

1:46 PM

@Trish it's a bit like how we can ask about Forgotten Realms or Golarion and it's not necessarily a Pathfinder or D&D question. But since it's something that was in the L5R 1e manual, it's worth tagging as that anyway.

The Oracle

2:23 PM

0

Q: How to ask a country-specific version of a more general question?

I have a question about my Role-playing Games Stack Exchange post: How to find a tabletop RPG group open to newbies? My question is similar to this one : Where can I find other RPG players? I tried to use the various online resources given by the answers, with no success. Would it be ok t...

discussion on-topic specific-question new-users

Carcer

identity is a strange beast

The Oracle

3:10 PM

-1

Q: Are we more lax on questions if they deal with sensitive subjects?

"What color are creatures in the Forgotten Realms?" "How old do humanoids become on Faerun?" "Is being left-handed in the Forgotten Realms seen as weird?" All these questions should rightfully be closed as 'too broad', considering the Forgotten Realms are vast. There is no way to list the colo...

discussion closing-questions

NautArch

3:36 PM

@Miniman Not sure if you're still awake, but I'm getting to be in agreement with you on homebrew. The quality of the questions is incredibly poor. Querents just aren't putting in the time to try to balance. They're not actually saying "I've done a lot of work to balance this, can you confirm it's balanced?" The majority are really saying "I came up with this idea, can you help me balance it?"

@doppelspooker It's absolutely killing me how much one user is posting homebrew that hasn't gone through the meta recommendation you wrote (no matter how many times I comment it to them.)

doppelspooker

@NautArch we might be missing advice then. What is going wrong for their posts?

NautArch

@doppelspooker I haven't seen the employ any of the recommendations in homebrew asking that you have in your meta.

And we get big homebrew ideas that are very long and seem to have not been thought through.

doppelspooker

@NautArch I've seen the versioning thing done—once, and then funnily enough it was closed as a duplicate of version 1 because people weren't aware we do versioning. Though there haven't been many homebrew review requests in the past 3 months.

NautArch

@doppelspooker My rant wasn't really about versioning. I'm okay with that. I'm not okay with a first version that hasn't had enough time spent with it's creator.

doppelspooker

That said we can't point people to advice before they've posted... but if there's someone doing this a lot, and they have been pointed to this advice, could you flag them?

NautArch

3:44 PM

It feels like we're basically seeing first drafts of things rather than final drafts that need to be reviewed.

@doppelspooker Yeah - do you want each one flagged or just the latest?

CTWind

While it should be saved for the meta post, I agree that for 'is it balanced?' variations, I'd like some indication that the user has made an effort at balancing their homebrew first, or at least a specific enough focus that it's more answerable, like "In particular, I have concerns about X feature- it's not quite like any existing class features, and I'm having a hard time evaluating its power".

doppelspooker

@NautArch Just the latest, and we'll review their activity in the [homebrew] tag.

David Coffron

@CTWind Agreed. Like the Help bonus action at level 1 (of the most recent homebrew). Have they played Mastermind? It is really strong. I'd argue it's much stronger than a fighter's fighting style (the closest level 1 equivalent). But it's difficult to leave an answer with just that note when they post the entire class.

NautArch

@doppelspooker done.

David Coffron

And when they list like 20 Elderitch Invocations (by another name) and half of them don't fit in with 5e axioms....

I usually really like evaluating homebrew (like races, weapons, subclasses, and even full classes when it seems like they would fit in), but this class is just all over the place.

doppelspooker

4:01 PM

@NautArch Thank you very much.

NautArch

@doppelspooker no worries. Took a lot to Be Nice on my last comment.

nitsua60

4:12 PM

@Theik Do you mind if I edit this comment to make it clear that the meta you opened regards the question's open/close status? (Because there's also a lot of discussion in the comments about the suitability of the term "homosexuality" in the title, and that's not covered by the meta.)

@doppelspooker Makes me wonder if we should create a list somewhere of "underseen" metas that could use some promotion and start cycling them through featured status?

doppelspooker

@nitsua60 That is quite a compelling idea. I like it.

nitsua60

Feels like it needs a meta to create/curate the list =)

doppelspooker

a featured meta! wham, masterpiece

@NautArch As it often does at times like this. Thank you for putting that thought and effort into it.

NautArch

4:50 PM

@doppelspooker I think i'd prefer a meta WHAM! masterpiece. I miss George Michael.

The Oracle

6:49 PM

1

Q: Why was my NaA flag declined?

Our site generally has a fairly strict policy for deleting answers that don't really answer the question, eg. advice not backed up by system expertise (see eg. this Meta and this). I flagged this answer as Not an Answer because it doesn't really answer the question, and my flag was declined. The...

discussion homebrew flagging

NautArch

@kviiri I'm still confused as to when to delete an answer or not.

For me Not an Answer is a downvote.

kviiri

@NautArch Well I thought this one'd be quite clear-cut but apparently not

NautArch

@kviiri Part of me wants to leave bad answers up so that folks can see how not to answer.

kviiri

@NautArch I think that's a fair point, except in this case it's a remarkably controversial answer. Score +3 vs -5.

NautArch

@kviiri I think this feeds into miniman's recent statement.

kviiri

6:59 PM

I think that's a part of the reason why we generally require users to show their work: if we accept something as puny as a mere "yes" or "no" as an answer, people will vote with their gut feeling --- basically it gets reduced to an opinion poll. But we want a site of experts, not just tallied opinions. Arguments matter.

NautArch

@kviiri and sadly, i see many more questions where work isn't shown (and answers).

kviiri

@NautArch I briefly partook in this discussion with miniman earlier. I don't really like homebrew balance questions, although they often produce excellent answers, the one linked in my Meta Q is definitely not one of them x)

NautArch

@kviiri It's hard enough answering questions on a 'stable' rules platform.

A_S00

Pre-question question: I have an ancient declined flag that I just noticed, and I'm wondering why it was declined, because it sure looks like it was valid. I'm curious about it, but don't want to raise a stink about something that's a) super old news, and b) not a big deal in the first place. Should I:

- Ask on meta (or is this too much "raise a stink")?
- Ask via some side channel like chat?
- Be content to wonder, single declined flags don't really matter anyway?

kviiri

Well I just raised a meta post half an hour ago about a declined NaA flag from earlier today, so... :P

A_S00

7:07 PM

that's what prompted me to look at my flag history

but yours is about a question which is actually a going concern

so more clear that it's worth asking

mine is about a question that was closed more than a year ago :P

kviiri

I think Meta is generally better than Chat for anything that concerns real site issues. Probably not a problem. Mind if I ask what flag it was?

NautArch

how does one see declined flags?

kviiri

Comment flags occasionally get rejected on technical grounds, I mean.

A_S00

I flagged this question (10k) as spam, and it was declined with a "moderator reviewed and found no evidence" message. I can't see the question anymore and don't remember the details, but I have trouble imagining that a question with the title "Do you like Minecraft?" wasn't spam.

@NautArch there's a section in your user profile, right sidebar says something like "X helpful flags" and is clickable

Carcer

@NautArch in your profile, under impact, click the "X helpful flags"

kviiri

7:12 PM

@A_S00 "Spam" flag is only used for posts that are purely advertisement and clearly intended as such

A_S00

Can you see the question? Was it actually a semi-legit (if close-worthy) question about Minecraft-in-the-context-of-RPGs? I was assuming it was one of those "DO YOU LIKE MINECRAFT? JOIN OUR SERVER, ONLY $999/MONTH" things

Carcer

@A_S00 the body is literally just "Do you like Minecraft? It is fun."

A_S00

lol

kviiri

Yeah, it's more like a harmless yet pointless conversation starter

A_S00

OK I can imagine that maybe that's supposed to be closed as "off topic" or "just really dumb" rather than specifically "spam"

kviiri

7:17 PM

@A_S00 Closing as off-topic is fine I'd guess

We used to have a Very Low Quality flag network-wide, didn't we? I think it had some usage problems though. Like whether that'd count as VLQ or is only stuff like "qddqdqdjjjqjjdjjjj" VLQ.

Carcer

7:29 PM

we did yes

I have flags for it in my history

kviiri

We had a "Formal Friday" at work today so people showing up in fancier rags could be photographed together

NautArch

@kviiri nice, my old company used to do that

Fancy Fridays

kviiri

I didn't actually know we had it but I invited along anyway because I came wearing my brown "I'm a history/literature/history-of-literature teacher" jacket.

I wonder if they didn't notice or if they just were cool with it, but I was also wearing cargo pants x)

Then again, those were my business cargo pants.

NautArch

7:45 PM

I'm sadly not in this picture:

kviiri

Snappy!

The fellow in the middle looks a bit like I imagine Leon Trotsky would've looked like if he became a businessman instead of a Red Army general. I'm not sure whether he really looks like Trotsky or am I just biased because of a certain curious thing that went on today

I mean, I was doing some lunch break shopping near our office and met a stranger who I thought looked very much like Leon Trotsky too.

NautArch

@kviiri there's a pretty epic pic of that guy from high school in front of a drum set with lasers.

kviiri

> Me: "Hello sir, have you noticed that you look quite a bit like Leon Trotsky?"
> Him (with a poorly concealed Russian accent): "And who is Leon Trotsky?"
> Me: "A Red Army General, best known as the leader of the Third Internationale."
> Him (turning red, sounding irritated): "I think you mean the Fourth Internationale."
> Me: "Oh ok, my mistake. Have a nice day!"

I guess he wasn't Trotsky :(

NautArch

@kviiri not to my knowledge. but he could have been undercover.

kviiri

@NautArch He'd best be. Legend says people looking an awful lot like Stalin are still trying to get rid of people looking an awful lot like Trotsky.

NautArch

7:56 PM

hahaha

Yuuki

This is reminding me of that comedy bit on whether you'd shoot Hitler if you saw him on the street.

kviiri

@Yuuki My girlfriend asked me a "deeply insightful personality analysis question" regarding that: if I was pointing a loaded gun at Hitler and could fire at him, would I do it?

Yuuki

WOULD YOU KILL HITLER | All My Sons Animatic

►

Unrelated animator but that's the bit.

kviiri

My answer was that "I couldn't really imagine getting myself into such a situation if I had no intent of firing, could I?"

@Yuuki Wow, this seems good :D

And yea, it makes a good point.

Yuuki

The delivery is pretty great.

"I'm not gonna kill that guy either because I am often wrong."

kviiri

8:17 PM

Yess

Acknowledging the possibility of errors is rather important when lives are at stake :)

NautArch

@kviiri said no military ever.

trogdor

@Yuuki oooh nice

David Coffron

8:32 PM

@NautArch @Miniman @V2Blast @ObliviousSage @doppelspooker @nitsua60 and anyone else who has been discussing the homebrew dilemma. Is this the kind of homebrew class question that would be answerable? I tried to include all the essential information in the post, show background, specify which sections are of particular concern, and demonstrate that an effort was made to ensure balance before posting to the stack:

rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/134007/…

Carcer

oof that's a long post

David Coffron

@Carcer Right. I'm trying to advise this gentlemen on what information to include in his homebrew questions so that they don't get closed.

NautArch

@DavidCoffron I think it's partly about what to include, but mostly about do a LOT of work before posting here.

My problem is clearly partly an attention span issue. Trying to parse that amount of data is incredibly difficult.

David Coffron

@NautArch That's fine, but I don't think it warrants close votes. A question's length should not be the reason to close something

NautArch

@DavidCoffron I didn't say that.

David Coffron

8:36 PM

@NautArch No, I know; That's just what I'm worried the other user is suspecting. I'm trying to make it clear that that isn't the cause

NautArch

I said that I don't think there has been enough effort by many people in posting homebrew balance review questions.

And I don't think length is why they're getting close votes, either. Although miniman did comment a concern about that.

David Coffron

@NautArch I don't either, I'm worried about the appearance that that is the reason. Which is why I was trying to formulate a good homebrew class question so that we have something to point to when we close others.

NautArch

@DavidCoffron My bigger concern is I don't think they've included what the linked meta asks for.

THey've posted several questions and have been pointed to it. But they just keep on ploughing forward doing the same thing.

David Coffron

@NautArch Which is why I was thinking we might need to take a different approach. Lead by example rather than instruction.

NautArch

@DavidCoffron Maybe start with something smaller, then?

David Coffron

8:41 PM

@NautArch We already have smaller examples (subclasses, races, rulessets). Those are the things that motivated this user and others to start posting their homebrew (eventually leading to classes)

NautArch

@DavidCoffron Okay, but I don't think they're looking at those for guidance - or are you saying they're not relevant?

THis is also hard because it looks like it's similar to the UA Mystic, which is really complicated also.

David Coffron

@NautArch They are relevant, but we've left some of his questions about race open when they were close to the same as his class questions (i.e. just the flat text of the homebrew and "is this balanced?")

NautArch

@DavidCoffron and I don't think they should be, either. I'm leaning towards Miniman on we shouldn't have these questions. Not because they're not good questions to have, but because people don't do the legwork first and because they can generate not useful or confusing answers.

David Coffron

@NautArch Might be worth resurrecting the meta on them then

NautArch

@DavidCoffron I think that's what miniman and doppel were discussing

David Coffron

8:48 PM

This answer basically goes into that full classes are too long and should be broken into individual parts, but that can defeat the whole purpose of the question.

NautArch

okay, but i'm still leaning towards the idea that they're not right for the stack.

David Coffron

The asker usually wants to know if the class is balanced as a whole, and they don't always parallel directly to another class's progression for easy one-to-one comparisons

@NautArch Yeah, I gotcha. I was explaining why the middle ground (the length limit) is a bad idea

NautArch

@DavidCoffron ah. Yeah, I think that a middle ground is a bad idea as well. It's also removing context.

Mike Q

10:02 PM

@DavidCoffron @Glazius Ahoy mateys

BESW

11:24 PM

"A Beginner’s Guide to Roleplaying Beyond D&D," by Avelene Perry for VRV Blog.

(It's basically saying "PbtA exists!" but that's cool.)

Carcer

hmmmmm

it bugs me a bit

if it explicitly said "I'm going to tell you about this cool family of games that's very different to D&D" then I'd be okay with it, but for something calling itself a beginner's guide to alternatives to simply focus on effectively a single product sets off my "hey, this just thinly veiled advertising!" nerves

anyway I need to go to bed

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