TRPG General Chat

Joshua

02:25

Can I get a hand finding a question? I recall one awhile back about hiring mercenaries to polymorph into higher-level monsters

(higher-level than the mercenaries that is)

nitsua60

game?

Joshua

d&d, not sure what version

nitsua60

any chance it's this one? (My players: please avoid. It's got ToA spoilers relevant to you!)

Joshua

definitely not

hmmm; too bad elementals aren't valid polymorph targets

nitsua60

anything else you can guess at? Any limits on "awhile back"? Any single word you're sure the post contained or didn't?

[dnd-*] is:q is a really big result to sift through....

Joshua

02:32

should have had T-Rex but google doesn't find it that way

I was hoping somebody would remember the question (it was quite popular)

nitsua60

check these 12

Joshua

I found it. rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/96639/…

nitsua60

Yeah, that was #2 in the list generated by searching [dnd-*] is:q rex.

Joshua

Is it just me or is trying to hire 3 level 16 druids ridiculous

Shalvenay

@Joshua I'd think hiring one L16 druid would be hard!

Joshua

02:45

Hmm I'm just going to have to wait for level 17 then so I cam polymorph my pet into an air elemental

nitsua60

Not just you--in my formative D&D years there only existed 9 Druids at any time. ("Druid" being the title of a L12 druid.) And 3 Archdruids (L13) and one Great Druid (L14). So, no, you weren't going to be hiring 3 level 16 druids any time soon =)

Mike Q

By level 17, there are much crazier things you can accomplish besides polymorph

The Oracle

1

Q: Stack-wide RfC on elections

Over on meta.SE (the meta that discusses Stack-wide practices and policies) there's a request that people think about and discuss how the election process works: Help me opine about a new election system. I'm dropping this "question" here really just as a pointer: many of you I know are interest...

Joshua

@MikeQ: Trust me, there's hardly anything crazier than my objective

nitsua60

Oh, no--are you the one who wants to self-travel through space?

Joshua

02:48

oh yeah

nitsua60

I'm... gonna go read Mistborn finally.

2

Joshua

ok that's a funny typo

CTWind

03:16

@nitsua60 Enjoy! I really like the series. Also, Sanderson's improved his writing style a whole bunch over time, so if that doesn't tickle your fancy I'd say try something newer of his. Maybe the Alloy of Law series later on in the Mistborn timeline.

kviiri

06:47

Seven questions to go!

trogdor

07:23

for a badge?

kviiri

@trogdor Until the site has round number nonsense :) (30 thousand questions)

trogdor

ah

Ben

08:24

@kviiri ohh exciting!

Character concept: a bipolar barbarian.

Mike Q

What?

Ben

Or schizophrenic.

Mike Q

I don't think these words mean what you think they mean

Are you trying to refer to a multiple personality disorder, like Jekyll/Hyde ?

Ben

Yes and no.

I mean, yes, the whole Jekyll and Hyde concept are what I'm pointing to.

But obviously, the barbarian class implies a "control" over your rage

What if you had a character that did not. Certain situations/images or other inputs were what triggered the rage?

Could make for an interesting playstyle.

BESW

I try to apply the rule of thumb that if I'm not interested in engaging with the reality of neuroatypicality for a character, I avoid using real-life neuroatypical terms to describe a fictional trope even if it's frequently mis-associated with them.

That said, I once made notes toward a barbarian who only raged when reminded of existentialism.

kviiri

08:30

A barbarian who is incapable of conceptualizing their own non-existence, but is very good at conceptualizing the non-existence of goblins.

Mike Q

@Ben Mechanically yes, although narratively the barbarian doesn't need to be in control per se

kviiri

@Ben It sounds like it might be an interesting gimmick for a while, but I can't really see it improving a DnD game experience in the long term.

Mike Q

There are some systems with rage-like mechanics where the player isn't totally in control

I'm not sure how well that would translate into the tactical, survival-and-teamwork-based nature that D&D was designed for

BESW

I've seen attempts at modeling that sort of thing in both 3.5 and 4e, and I agree with Mike that the common problem is simply that sort of loss of control seems anathema to the franchise's play assumptions.

@kviiri My barbarian didn't like existentialism; he thought it was cynical and defeatist and unconstructive. But it was the only philosophy he couldn't dismantle to his personal satisfaction, so he felt obligated to it and that made him so mad.

Mike Q

08:46

Pathfinder has the Master Chymist prestige class, which is essentially Jekyll/Hyde

Their other self has a separate personality and alignment

And they can change unwillingly in response to stress

Although they share the PC's goals so the player is basically still in control, so it's not really an excuse to wreck things for the rest of the party

trogdor

@BESW lol

Carcer

10:19

4 questions to go apparently

doppelspooker

10:55

@BESW I remember in D&D 3.5e there is a barbarian prestige class — the berserker maybe? — who gets some amazing class features like the ability to take successive cleaves with a five foot step between each but when they are raging they cannot choose their targets and must attack the closest person, friend or foe.

As much as I wanted those features I could never play that class because I don't want to go murder my entire party.

Carcer

@doppelspooker you're thinking of Frenzied Berserker

doppelspooker

@Carcer that sounds about right

Carcer

has the ability Frenzy which is separate to and stacks with rage, IIRC, so you can be raging but not frenzied

does have the massive limitation that you are liable to enter frenzy whenever you take damage (have to save to not go berserk)

the cleave thing is Supreme Cleave, I think

doppelspooker

11:15

I think so

Joel Harmon

11:26

@MikeQ I do vaguely recall some Barbarian special options that would damage everyone nearby, even allies, and/or force the Barbarian to attack /someone/ until rage ran out, even if it was down to allies.

... and it looks like I'm late to that party. That's what I get for backlogging.

kviiri

11:51

I have a lurking feeling we've got like a dozen questions people are not posting because they want the 30k get.

Rubiksmoose

@kviiri well yeah, the person that snags that coveted title is known to be the fated hero of the world.

Rubiksmoose

12:11

hey there @goodguy5 :)

BESW

Bonnie Tyler - Holding Out For A Hero (Video)

►

Rubiksmoose

@BESW Wow talk about an appropriate song at least as far as title choice. bravo.

Trish

whee, 18 tribebooks down...

8 more to go.... :(

kviiri

@Trish What on earth have you gotten yourself into? :(

Trish

@kviiri a quest for 200 points for working through my OWN question.

on a topic that is quite... scarse in the books. but I got routine: search for the words love, mate and sex... and always both the Metis and the Litany parts.

Anaphory

12:30

@Trish There are 26 books just on the were-X tribes? I had no idea just how big that game system was. Are there equivalent numbers also for mages, vampires etc?

Trish

@Anaphory There are furies, gnawers, children, fianna, get, glass walkers, talons, shadowlords, striders, fangs, stargazers, uktena, wendigo. Each has 2 (2nd ed and revised). so yes, 26 tribebooks frm 2 editions.

Add to that 9 breed books for cats, coyotee, raven, bear, rat, reptile, spider, shark and snake.
AND then add the hengeyokai for foxes and the asian variants on tiger, ravem rat, reptile and shark.

BESW

@Anaphory So far as I can tell, WoD splatbooks were like Cheetos: the devs got high, started one, and just couldn't stop.

Shalvenay

covers @Trish in cute werewolf puppies!

Trish

@Shalvenay oh come on... the old werewolf stuff is just... around... 300 books or something. spread out over 1st, 2nd, revised and W20... so 4 editions.

Shalvenay

@Trish awww, I thought you could use a break :)

Trish

12:37

@Shalvenay about 40 of those are splat specific, add to that the about 5 player guides (one was "monsters") I think that covers the sources I am at least willing to look at...

BESW

Trish

most stuff is actually "This is Place X" or "Book about spirits/realms/Enemytype X"

correction: forgot to count out the charater 170 variant character sheets...

kviiri

13:21

Splatbooks are one of the biggest design turn-offs for me...

Speaking of splatbooks, I finally mustered the courage to tell my friends I'm shelving the 13th Age campaign, with little intention to revisit it.

Trish

and the wolves are done.. the last were... rathe easy.

doppelspooker

@BESW lol, wow

Trish

13:37

@doppelspooker for sifting 29 books in a fortnight?!

doppelspooker

@Trish for someone transforming into a werewolf from seeing a full moon

Trish

ohhh, just misread XD

doppelspooker

your research effort is very impressive though

nitsua60

13:53

3 questions...

Trish

@doppelspooker added the sum up

@nitsua60 shoot!

nitsua60

Sorry--I didn't mean I currently have three questions. I meant that the site is at 29997 questions.

doppelspooker

whoa

Trish

ohhh! we need 3 more?! make sonme up! NOW!

nitsua60

uhhh... I'm posting "hey, does anyone want to join my game tonight?" and maybe "I've hear there are games other than D&D--what should I try next?"

That gets us close....

Sir Cinnamon

14:06

"What alignment would a person who redirects a trolley to 1 person in order to save 5 people be"

Twiggy

@SirCinnamon Maybe a chaotic good?

kviiri

DnD should reframe the alignment grid as trolley problems

Sir Cinnamon

Chaotic Evil = Split the trolley in two so it can go down both paths

Lawful Evil = Save the 5 and guilt them into doing you favours

Yuuki

@SirCinnamon No no, Chaotic Evil would be setting a bomb on the trolley which detonates to kill everyone and also planting evidence that implicates someone else as the bombmaker.

@SirCinnamon I could actually see Lawful Good making this choice depending on who the one person is.

Sir Cinnamon

@Yuuki Maaaaybe - I think in a lot of cases Lawful good is the person who wouldnt touch the lever no matter what. "I didnt touch it so i didnt kill anyone"

Twiggy

14:17

@Yuuki I think your chaotic evil is lawful evil

@SirCinnamon I agree

kviiri

@SirCinnamon I would say Lawful Evil has each side bid money and favors for the right to survive.

(brb)

Yuuki

@kviiri Actually, that sounds like ~~Chaotic Evil~~ alignments are completely pointless, I hate that they ever existed, and if I had a time machine I would go back in time and threaten whomever created the mechanic at gunpoint.

doppelspooker

Alignments had a point at the start. It was just law vs chaos, and they were not personality mechanics: they were strictly sides in a cosmic war. The point of alignment was to make you feel OK going into that cave and killing everything in it and taking their things, because they're on the other side of the war.

2

Sir Cinnamon

I feel like if you got a philosophy professor and explained the alignment system they would slap you for trying to simplify morality into 2 axes

doppelspooker

Then good/evil showed up, which made things a bit more complicated. And then people wanted a personality mechanic, and rather than create something actually new and fitting for the purpose of describing personality, Gygax(?) just took the alignment mechanic and re-used that for a personality mechanic, which gives us all the wonderful alignment debates we have today.

goodguy5

14:29

hey @Rubiksmoose

how's it going

I'm usually lurking

Rubiksmoose

ah no worries didn't mean to unlurk you.

goodguy5

no problem.

kviiri

@doppelspooker Were early DnD parties expected to be co-aligned?

Carcer

@doppelspooker I mean... alignment languages existed. I don't think it was meant purpely as a personality mechanic.

Miniman

@Carcer Alignment languages were the secret languages of each side of the war.

Carcer

14:39

also re: trolley problem: youtube.com/watch?v=MiEYCXPI-qY

kviiri

Lawful language = legalese?

@Carcer I recall there even being alignment-based poisons. Because poisons are evil and they wanted something similar without breaking that.

goodguy5

I always imagined the chaos language being goblin
and the law language being celestial

kviiri

I might be wrong though, it's just my recollection that this has been discussed before.

doppelspooker

@Carcer that was a warfare thing

@kviiri yes, you were lawful and the opponents were chaotic

Colin Gross

@goodguy5 Plot twist. They're the same but one has fixed grammar, and the other is English.

goodguy5

14:42

heh

kviiri

@doppelspooker Oh ok, interesting!

Colin Gross

@Yuuki Is this before or after you use the time machine to kill Hitler?

kviiri

@ColinGross And neutral is Newspeak which has been carefully treated to remove all excesses of emotion, positive or negative.

Carcer

@ColinGross I could readily imagine the language of chaos being any of a number of british dialects

Yuuki

@ColinGross Why would I kill the man who killed Hitler?

goodguy5

14:44

@kviiri you mean non-foxnewspeak

Colin Gross

@Carcer I'm nonplussed by that.

Carcer

@goodguy5 no, I'm pretty sure he means en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newspeak.

Colin Gross

1984?

Awww Yeah... Orwellian neo-liberal hellscape!

goodguy5

I actually didn't know that, but even if I had, I'd have made the dig at Fox

Colin Gross

@goodguy5 Meh... that's like shooting a clay pigeon that's already on the ground.

kviiri

14:46

My brother-in-law is an electrician. I tested a device he's working on and noted that he should put in some more light emitting diodes to indicate the device's status. The suggestion made him addled.

goodguy5

@ColinGross which is still a fun time, imo

Colin Gross

@goodguy5 Until the Gubberment takes away yer gunz!

goodguy5

TEHY TOOK UUR GUNZ

Rubiksmoose

@ColinGross That's how you get your k/d ratio up!

Colin Gross

@Rubiksmoose immobile unarmed opponents are the best kind ....

Maiko Chikyu

15:22

Good morning/afternoon/night everyone.

Yuuki

16:00

I always get a split second of awkwardness when I'm reading something on my phone and I instantly reject a phone call as I try to scroll.

But then I figure that it was probably a robocall and I move on.

Xirema

@Yuuki My phone does a thing where it'll start vibrating + ringing a few seconds before the notification to answer pops up.

GreySage

@Xirema Mine does the same and it always scares the hell out of me

Carcer

when I had my old speakers and old phone I could tell when my mobile was about to ring or receive a text because of the interference it caused

The Oracle

17:10

0

Q: Why was my asnwer deleted?

My reply was in answer to this question about 'How to make players settle differences IC? I posted my answer, got a comment from SevenSidedDie, replied to it, then he replied and deleted my answer in one swift move. Here's the whole thing: My answer: I believe there was a few other discuss...

discussion answers deleted-answers

goodguy5

how do .... uh..... complain? about a font issue?

Anaphory

@kviiri Waaaah.

goodguy5

this answer uses the phrase "Game Zero", except with a numeric '0'.

however, the font looks like a lower case 'O' ('o').

I feel like it should be a meta post, but I'm still not quite sure "how"

Anaphory

@kviiri On an utterly unrelated note, I was ill yesterday, so I had the time for some Dungeon Crawl: Stone Soup. I managed, as Minotaur Berserker, to clear the dungeon until level 11, Ossuary, Sewers, Lair until level 3, where I killed a few dragons and a swamp dragon was kind enough to die with its scales intact, so I put them on and went into the spiders' nest, had a dangerous run there, teleported away, and blinked towards the dot I thought were the stairs up just in time.

goodguy5

whoops, forgot to link.

https://rpg.stackexchange.com/a/133516/34716

Anaphory

17:24

I weren't the stairs up, it were the stairs down, and I died.

Sir Cinnamon

@goodguy5 That is a bad 0, agreed

Anaphory

My biggest issue is currently finding the patience to heal up completely.

@SirCinnamon I think my default serif font is better than yours, then. I don't see an issue.

Sir Cinnamon

we should just start calling it game Ø

@Anaphory Do you have the georgia font?

Apparently someone else has had the same issue github.com/cben/mathdown/issues/95

11

Q: Looking for a font similar to Georgia, but without the numbers dipping as they do

Does anyone know a font that looks like Georgia, but where in the numbers are a consistent height and don't drip down oddly as in Georgia? Better yet, is there anywhere I can get a .ttf or a .otf where in the numbers are adjusted? I can't just manually adjust the font because I need it for font...

font-recommendation

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Text_figures Oh wow it's a whole thing

Anaphory

@SirCinnamon Ah, no. Sorry.

Sir Cinnamon

@Anaphory Lucky you! Haha it's a nice enough font but apparently it has "text figures" which can be confusing. I knew none of this

Anaphory

17:39

@SirCinnamon Ah, Georgia has old-style figures? Hm, there may be a way to just set that using open font features. If I look for it, it may take a while, because I know nothing about open type features using user-supplied css for Georgia.

nitsua60

OHMIGOSH IT'S JUST 1 QUESTION NOW

(I'm getting far too excited about this.)

The Oracle

0

Q: Can we do something about font ambiguity of 0 (zero) vs o (lower case 'O')?

This answer uses the well-known phrase "game zero", except it uses a numeric '0' (Game 0). I had to read the line several times, before realizing what was being said. Then I even tried to edit the post to "fix" the o into a zero, before realizing what had happened. Can we do something about thi...

bug design

Anaphory

If Georgia supports that (I'll try out in a moment), you want font-variant-numeric: tabular-nums; in the right place in some user-supplied CSS style for stack overflow.

Sir Cinnamon

@Anaphory Wouldnt necessarily have to be tabular

developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/CSS/font-variant-numeric Looks like normal vs oldstyle-nums would do it (with some fonts, georgia idk)

Anaphory

@SirCinnamon It might be that normal works instead, or it might be that Georgia thinks “What do dou mean, my numbers are normal”.

Now, where do I find the standard Georgia that everyone has…

GreySage

17:45

@nitsua60 30000 right now

Sir Cinnamon

Live editing the page css, I cant seem to make any of the font-variant-numeric types have any visible effect

Carcer

hey, 30k questions

I assume nitsua60 is throwing a party somewhere

Anaphory

@SirCinnamon Then either your browser doesn't support open type features (unlikely) or Georgia doesn't have any other figures and we need a differnt solution (more likely).

goodguy5

pretty universally, I miss the old layout

Sir Cinnamon

2

Q: CSS: Styling numbers and text with different fonts

I'd like that all the numbers and all the punctuation in my website have a font-family, while the rest of the text has another. (Example: numbers and punctuation in Arial and text in Tahoma) I could do it for each of them, but they are A LOT, so this is not an option. Is there an easier way?

html css fonts

Anaphory

17:50

unicode-range: U+30-39; Cool feature!

Maybe use Gelasio? It is metric-compatible and looks similar (so a substitute by design), but has normal-style figures.

Sir Cinnamon

@Anaphory caniuse.com/#search=unicode-range Pretty well supported it looks like too

goodguy5

I feel that Geleasio is not enough of a numeric improvement to warrant change.

for zero, specifically

Anaphory

@SirCinnamon One of the answers says that some recent versions of Georgia support lining figures. Now, where to get that version?

@goodguy5 Actually, true, now I look at it. It has a weird mix between lining and old-style figures, I thought they were just lining.

nitsua60

@Carcer Nah, I'm over it. (That's so 'last hour.')

=)

Sir Cinnamon

Im okay with the old style figures, I kind of like the idea of just using a slashed zero to distinguish

Anaphory

18:06

@SirCinnamon That should be very easy with unicode-range then, given some likeable other 0 (or Fontforge, a Georgia installation you don't mind to destroy and the willingness to ignore its licensing for that purpose).

Or even, just generating a font that only has the slashed 0 and insert that before Georgia in the user style sheet.

(I also like old-style figures.)

nitsua60

@SevenSidedDie on your DW meta answer I'm terribly tempted to chime in with "yeah, I've played just enough (a few dozen sessions) to know that I'm definitely not an expert but that the rules, applied properly, handle a lot more than they might appear to at first blush." But I don't know if that'd actually be helpful or just piling on?

Anaphory

@Anaphory Hm, not even the Microsoft GeorgiaⓇ available through MyFonts has OpenType features…

Mike Q

18:30

@Twiggy Chaotic Good = Destroy the trolley before it hits anyone, even though you are causing harm to the public transit infrastructure

Twiggy

@MikeQ Seems legit.

Delioth

@MikeQ That'd be Chaotic Neutral; Sacrificing everyone's stuff to save some people (unilaterally, willingly disregarding any order that would rule against that)

Twiggy

@Delioth Even better.

GreySage

@MikeQ Chaotic Good: Let the trolley do what it will, then run a fundraiser for the families of the victims.

Mike Q

@Delioth Chaotic Neutral = Attempt to seduce the trolley, and afterwards say you were trying to help

GreySage

18:34

You can't impose on the freedom of the trolley, man

Delioth

I don't know if there is a Chaotic Good action to take in general for the trolley problem (maybe if you can jump in the way)

Mike Q

@Yuuki Chaotic Evil = Pull the lever blindly, then randomly choose one side of the tracks and stab everyone on it

Delioth

@MikeQ That's Neutral Evil - you aren't actively against any laws in place or personal code, you're just sacrificing the life of others for your own personal fun (Lying about it later is a separate, possibly Chaotic Evil or definitely Neutral Evil act)

Yuuki

@Delioth Chaotic Good would probably be blowing up the trolley, killing the conductor.

Mike Q

@Yuuki I was very confused before you made that edit

Delioth

18:37

You seem to be conflating "clinically insane" with "chaotic". They're not synonyms - if Lawful is "championing a code, whether that's the law of the land or a personal mantra", then Chaotic must be the inverse - "actively opposing a code [see above]"

@Yuuki See, I still see that as Chaotic Neutral

Yuuki

@Delioth I mean, it doesn't help that everyone keeps pushing Dark Knight's Joker as Chaotic Evil.

Delioth

You're not self-sacrificing or altruistic, you're pragmatically killing someone for the benefit of others

@Yuuki And they could very well be wrong

Yuuki

Which, tbh, I don't agree with. I actually think if we had to pigeonhole alignments, I'd say that Heath Ledger's Joker is actually Lawful Evil.

Mike Q

Since codes are subjective, I tend to judge lawful/chaos in terms of how much entropy is produced

Yuuki

Or Neutral Evil.

Delioth

18:39

@MikeQ Alignment at its core is subjective, you just have to standardize what the source of subjectivity is

Mike Q

My standard is that I am always right

Twiggy

Yee

Delioth

I personally use the source - the person doing the action, and what their motivations are.

If they're trying to sacrifice of themselves to save the day, that act is Good

Twiggy

Lawful= control

Neutral= neutral

Mike Q

My other standard is that alignment is dumb

Sir Cinnamon

18:41

@MikeQ My alignment is dumb too

Oh wait, I misread

oh well, misreading fits my alignment

Delioth

@Twiggy Define neutral, otherwise trying to define the others doesn't make sense

Yuuki

@Delioth Ledger's Joker is willing to die to prove that Batman isn't some incorruptible ideal. Could that be construed as Good?

Trying to expose possible corruption and willing to die to do so?

Twiggy

Does anyone have some stories involving lawful stupid or chaotic stupid characters?

Mike Q

True Neutral = Avoid trolleys so you don't have to deal with the problem

Yuuki

@MikeQ True Neutral = Avoid San Francisco so your gear setting doesn't roll you down the hill.

Mike Q

18:42

@Twiggy I'd say that >50% of TTRPG horror stories involving paladins and rogues would fall into that category

Delioth

@Yuuki Yeah - he's willing and trying to sacrifice of himself for the benefit of others. That path involves a lot of other sacrifice of others for the benefit of others as well, but Good acts + Neutral Acts == Net Good

Similarly by my reasoning, Thanos (MCU movie at least) is 100% Lawful Good

Twiggy

@MikeQ lol

@Delioth How would Thanos be lawful good? I think he would be true neutral .

Mike Q

I'd say he's pretty much split 50/50

Twiggy

Just wants balance

Delioth

@Twiggy He follows a strict code and he makes his own sacrifices to achieve his goals, which he believes are for the benefit of everyone

Sir Cinnamon

18:46

@Delioth from my point of view, the Avengers are evil!

Mike Q

@Delioth If alignment is that subjective, then you could argue that anyone is lawful good

Delioth

They're also Good though; they sacrifice of themselves for the benefit of the planet

Sir Cinnamon

Question that sparked a debate among my friends: When thanos erased half the universe, was there a chance he would be erased too?

Mike Q

@SirCinnamon Yes

Yuuki

@MikeQ Everyone is ~~the hero~~ Lawful Good of their own story.

Sir Cinnamon

18:47

@MikeQ Interesting. I definitely think he excluded himself

Yuuki

I feel like he at least subconsciously excluded himself.

Delioth

@MikeQ Not anyone. If someone's doing things for their own purposes, they're Evil - if it's not for themselves, then it may be Neutral

The way I've been defining it:

Mike Q

@Delioth I feel hungry and buy myself a sandwich. Am I evil now?

Yuuki

Because he says that his plan is to do The Thing and then "watch the sun rise over a grateful universe".

Twiggy

@Delioth What's his strict code? Also, he may have felt bad for it but Gamora's sacrifice was her sacrifice. Not Thanos's. Thanos'? Whatever.

Yuuki

18:49

And it's a bit impossible to watch the sun rise if you're dead.

Sir Cinnamon

@Yuuki Exactly, he refers to himself "after" it a couple times

Delioth

Good: Altruistic; self-sacrifice for the benefit of others
Neutral: Self-sacrifice for self-benefit, or sacrifice of others for the benefit of others
Evil: Selfish; sacrifice of others for self-benefit

Yuuki

@Twiggy Thanosopodes?

Sir Cinnamon

@Twiggy That isnt how he sees it

Mike Q

Also, predictions for Avengers 4: Thanos meets another, similar-looking cosmic megalomaniac who also has a magical gauntlet (which is fancier, has 7 stones, and fits on the other hand). They oppose Thanos because they wanted to kill the other half of the universe.

Delioth

18:49

@MikeQ No, because you're not sacrificing of others.

Twiggy

@Yuuki lol

@SirCinnamon In that case alignment truly is subjective.

Delioth

Unless you're directly stealing your sandwich-things from someone

@Twiggy Gamora's sacrifice wasn't her sacrifice though; From Thanos' perspective, it was him sacrificing what he loves

Yuuki

@Delioth But what if farmers starve because they had to feed the agri-industrial complex rather than eat their own produce?

Twiggy

@Delioth How was it not her sacrifice when she was the one being sacrificed?

Delioth

@Yuuki Outcomes don't matter in my definition of alignment - the single source that determines any entity's alignment is their own personal motivations for doing something

@Twiggy She didn't make the sacrifice

Mike Q

18:52

@Twiggy It doesn't matter because no trolleys were involved

If Thanos used a trolley to kill Gamora, then he would be evil

Yuuki

@Twiggy Does that mean putting down your pet dog with rabies is Evil?

Or Neutral?

Twiggy

@MikeQ Ah, makes sense.

Delioth

Thanos' action had 2 parts: the Good part, where he Sacrificed what he loved for the good of the universe; and the Neutral part, where he sacrificed another being for the good of the universe.

Twiggy

@Yuuki Gamora wasn't going to die though.

Yuuki

@Twiggy You don't know that. Maybe in 200 years, her metabolic processes start to slow down...

Mike Q

18:54

All alignment discussions are, by nature, evil because they harm everyone's sanity and produce no benefit

4

Delioth

@Twiggy From his perspective, his sacrifice was more important; thus it's a Good action. It's arguably Chaotic too since it's ruining his 50/50 split thing by killing more than 50%

Yuuki

I wonder if the whole 50/50 thing takes into account the number of people who would die after half of the population disappears (people in airplanes, people in surgery, etc.).

I imagine it doesn't matter because the point isn't the exact number.

Mike Q

@Yuuki Maybe the gauntlet intelligently resolves that way?

Twiggy

@Delioth Once again, that makes alignment subjective. Sorry if I sound agitated, tone doesn't translate well with text.

Mike Q

Like, if you have a plane with 150 people, and only kill the pilot, thereby indirectly killing the other 149, then it would have to spare 149 people elsewhere

Delioth

18:56

Probably not, he wasn't completely sane at that point anyways. He's not completely off the chain and broken, but his worldview certainly isn't through the same lens as everyone else

@Twiggy Alignment will always be subjective. It's an arbitrary categorization of creatures with complex motives and emotions into 9 distinct categories of motive

Twiggy

@Delioth Which is why I hate DnD alignment so much, or at least modern alignment.

Yuuki

@MikeQ I feel like it doesn't matter. Because the whole point of the snap wasn't about exact numbers.

Delioth

@Twiggy I've found it gets much better if you define the character in question is the single source of truth for alignment

It means it's still subjective, but it's not on some nebulous "God" figure to determine the morals the world works by

Mike Q

@Delioth That would actually make it harder, because every villain with a grand plan to "fix" the world would then count as LG

Delioth

It's entirely on who sacrifices, and who benefits (from their perspective)

Yuuki

19:01

@MikeQ What's wrong with that?

Twiggy

When he snapped and killed off half the life in the universe, did he also kill the flora? Plants are sentient and if you say he only killed humanoids, what about all the non-humanoids that still use resources? Did he kill half the animals? If his plan was to limit resource consumption, then this would contradict his plan.

Mike Q

@Yuuki Rather than delve down the hole of Godwin's Law, I'll instead mumble something about paladins

Yuuki

@Twiggy He turned everyone into herbicides.

That's what the dust is.

Twiggy

@Yuuki Oof.

Yuuki

So they would in turn kill a bunch of plants.

Which would in turn starve a bunch of animals.

Twiggy

19:04

gleep

Xirema

Oh, we're doing the "Outcomes have no bearing on Alignment" thing again, huh?

Mike Q

You have to judge characters by the standards of the universe they're in. For example, Thanos is evil because his quip-to-screentime ratio is too low.

Yuuki

@MikeQ No, that's what makes him Chaotic.

Xirema

@MikeQ Infinity War is evil, because the Bad Guy™ wins, and popular movies aren't allowed to have a bad guy win.

Mike Q

Or just use heuristics. Evil = causes unnecessary harm to characters in-universe. Chaotic = causes unnecessary harm to the DM's patience.

Twiggy

19:08

@MikeQ But what if it is necessary but still considered immoral>

*?

Mike Q

@Twiggy [hands over pamphlet titled "Lawful Evil 101"]

Xirema

@Twiggy It's the trolley problem.

Yuuki

Evil = creates online communities

Or e-villages.

Xirema

"If I do nothing, 5 people die. If I act, 1 other person, who wasn't going to die, dies instead." How do I morals?

Yuuki

@Xirema By swimming around with jagged teeth and bright colors.

No wait, that's a moray.

Twiggy

19:10

@MikeQ I disagree. I think it's closer to chaotic good. Lawful evil is like a lich trying to control the planet.

Mike Q

@Twiggy What if the lich wants to control the planet so they can help people?

Also, that's racist against liches

Twiggy

@MikeQ Then they're an archlich

Yuuki

@Twiggy Yeah, what if they have the whole "people suck and representative democracy isn't solving our problems" thing going on?

Twiggy

Normal liches aren't good

Yuuki

As a kid, I used to confuse "lich" with "lichen" a lot.

Xirema

19:12

Here's the actual problem with Thanos's plan, and his "pretend I'm actually doing something noble and heroic" ethos: he's wrong. He's wrong about overpopulation, he's wrong about resource management, and even if he had the right idea about those issues, he's choosing the most destructive and harmful course of action possible instead of literally thousands of other more effective and more humane options.

GreySage

@Yuuki a level 20 lichen would be a fun end-boss

Twiggy

@Xirema I completely agree.

@GreySage lol

Yuuki

In the end, Thanos is someone who was traumatized by the self-destruction of his own homeworld. Whether his plan makes sense or not doesn't really matter to him, it's the idea that it could have.

Or at least that's one interpretation of it.

Mike Q

Has anyone tried implementing a trolley problem (or other philosophy problem) as some sort of in-game puzzle?

Xirema

That is what makes him evil. A lot of people love to straw-Postmodernist their way into the conversation, like "well, WHAT IF he was right" or "well, how do you even know your morals are moral?"

Twiggy

19:14

@Xirema I think if they wanted Thanos to wipe out half the universe, they should have just gone to the comics and made him want to please lady/mistress death.

Yuuki

Honestly, I'm okay that they didn't do that.

Xirema

@MikeQ My version would have the lever move the one person over to the track with 5 people and then have the trolley run them all over. And then after they finish mourning the dead, they find the emergency brake fully functional in the trolley.

Yuuki

It sounds incredibly dumb and at least with this interpretation, we're still talking about it months after the fact.

Twiggy

@Yuuki Same, but I hate how they had him as an altruistic-but-not-really kind of guy.

Xirema

I call it the "Gen Urobuchi" puzzle.

Yuuki

19:16

@Xirema Nah, the Gen Urobuchi puzzle would have them managing to save everyone involved only for their heads to spontaneously implode five minutes later.

The punch hurts more when you think you've won.

Xirema

@Yuuki Nah, that's a misreading of his work. He doesn't punish people who make the right choices. He tricks people into making the wrong choices, and then dangles the right choice in your face after you've already fornicated up and makes you live with the realization that you could have done the right thing had you not been so dumb.

GreySage

@Xirema Perfect

Xirema

That's true horror. Not making innocent people suffer, but corrupting innocent people into creating their own suffering.

Sir Cinnamon

@Xirema I feel like i woudnt feel thaaaat guilty if someone FORCED me to do a bad thing

Xirema

@SirCinnamon It's more about framing. You make someone think "I didn't have a choice", and then reveal to them later "actually, you totally had a choice, chump!"

@SirCinnamon If they legitimately don't have a choice, then that's boring and pointless.

Carcer

19:29

being deliberately manipulated into doing a bad thing isn't that much different

Sir Cinnamon

@Xirema I mean thats often the premise of the SAW movies but I dunno I just don't know if that would work on me. It's like someone puts a gun to your head and says "rob that bank" and then later tells me "Haha, if you know the password was Saxaphone I would have let you go!!" i would a) not believe them and b) not blame myself that I was fooled

Yuuki

@Xirema I feel like you're only looking at maybe Fate/Zero and completely ignoring Saya no Uta.

And I have now revealed myself as a complete degenerate even though I haven't watched anime in years.

Xirema

@Yuuki My point of reference is actually more Madoka than either of those. Also, I'm not 100% sure Saya no Uta is a counterpoint to either other example. The v-novel plays coy with this, but it's implied at various points that Fuminori was always a pretty rotten person, and Saya (and his brain injury) was just his flimsy excuse to stop pretending otherwise.

Carcer

@Yuuki casual

Mike Q

> PCs walk into a room and find two chests. Chest A is open and visibly contains 1000 gp. Chest B is closed and has a note saying that someone had cast Divination regarding the PC's decision; if Divination said they would loot Chest B only, then Chest B contains 1,000,000 gp, otherwise it contains 0 gp. Should the PCs one-box or two-box?

Yuuki

19:34

@MikeQ PCs should blow up both chests with Fireball just in case there's a mimic.

Mike Q

@Yuuki Correct answer. Both chests are mimics. Roll for initiative.

Xirema

Arguably, that's the point of the first decision point in the v-novel: if Fuminori is, according to you the reader, a decent person, then he allows Saya to fix his brain injury, and he spends the rest of his life in prison for murder. If he's truly irredeemable (and always has been) then the rest of the novel goes on, in all its depraved glory.

Yuuki

My tastes in anime are rather specific now, so I've basically stopped watching anime because I don't feel like reading a ton of synopses every season to find one that I'm interested in to follow.

Mike Q

@Yuuki My policy is that if I'm not interested within the first 2 episodes, I stop watching

Or if it's isekai, because I've found them all to be similarly disappointing

Xirema

I'm in a similar camp, though I've been having a heck of a good time with the third season of Attack on Titan. It's all the good stuff from season 1 (strong engaging characters, awesome fight scenes) with very minimal of the bad stuff (plots that drag on, poorly composed dramatic moments).

Yuuki

19:39

@MikeQ The entire genre is duuuuuuuuuuuumb.

Xirema

And of course, deep down, I'm a sleeper agent on behalf of the Cult of Haruhi, awaiting the day when our great Goddess will awaken and we shall rise once more to conquer the surface world.

Yuuki

I dunno, I can't do action anime anymore. I spread out my interests among the media that I consume. Action and adventure is mostly in my gaming. Drama in TV and movies. And so anime is basically left with slice-of-life and romance stuff.

Mike Q

@Yuuki Have you heard about our lord and saviour JoJo

Yuuki

I should do some horror but with anime, it's inevitably all gore which I am not a fan of at all.

goodguy5

@Yuuki Have you watched any of Dragonball Super?

GreySage

19:42

@Xirema I got through about 4 episodes of Attack on Titan before I couldn't stand how pointless the whole plot and all the characters were.

Yuuki

@MikeQ I've heard of Jojo but not watched it.

@goodguy5 Also no.

Xirema

@Yuuki Shout-out to Oregairu, which is basically Bojack Horseman but for teenagers. I really wish that show had been around back when I was a teenager, probably would have made me reconsider how much of a poop-head I was being.

goodguy5

if you like the general idea of DBZ, you would probably enjoy dbsuper

Yuuki

@GreySage Grimdark settings in anime bore me, tbh.

It's inevitably like Akame ga Kill, which basically becomes darkness for the sake of darkness.

I somehow powered through the first couple of chapters of that manga and I ended up not caring for the events at all.

Why should I bother developing attachments for characters that won't survive a chapter?

Mike Q

I think the word to describe JJBA is "schlocky" ?

Like it's very genuine in its silliness, without the awkward cringey lampshade-hanging that you see in other "comedy" series

GreySage

19:47

@MikeQ JJBA?

Mike Q

JoJo's Bizarre Adventure

I'd recommend skipping the first chapter (season? arc?) and just reading a summary of it instead

GreySage

Apparently I've seen a lot of Gen Urobuchi's work. I never knew that it was by the same person.

Transcript for