TRPG General Chat

Miniman

00:03

@nitsua60 How dare you insult the noble platypus by using it as a metaphor for incoherent design. The platypus is a masterpiece of design, you just don't understand the design goals behind it.

Of every animal in the world, the platypus is the one designed to look exactly like a hoax.

5e is more like the kakapo, where it was designed specifically to be bad at all the things that are fundamental goals for it.

trogdor

@Miniman And then god said "now it's time to really ##_#$ with them"

XD

Miniman

In the kakapo's case, it was designed to be really bad at breeding, evading predators...overall just at surviving as a species.

nitsua60

@Miniman True. I've been trolling through the wayback machine to try and unearth the design goals behind the platypus, and all I seem to be able to come up with is "modular design."

Miniman

@nitsua60 That was the (unrealistically ambitious) goal to begin with, but they dropped it.

trogdor

5e feels to me like a slightly re worked 3.5 with a small amount of 4e stuff shoved in while trying to hide the 4e stuff

Miniman

00:09

@trogdor I'd say stripped down rather than reworked, but yeah.

nitsua60

@trogdor That's interesting. It feels to me very much like someone tried to make the improvements from 1e->2e, but did them better.

A bit of a Rorschach game, eh?

trogdor

@nitsua60 did you ever play 3.5? Just curious there

nitsua60

Nope. Skipped from 2 right up to 5.

trogdor

For my part I never played 1 or 2

@nitsua60 ok

I have no idea if we are both right then

nitsua60

Right--so we're both seeing the "familiar" bits from the editions we know, then the "unfamiliar" bits are "but they tweaked it a little."

trogdor

00:11

I'll assume we are

XD

nitsua60

=)

trogdor

Yeah

@Miniman well in my opinion stripping some things out of 3.5 is an improvement

I Know not everyone is going to agree with that

Still,.

...

5th isn't the way I would have done it anyway

So wtv

Miniman

@trogdor I suspect most 3.5 fans would agree there's a lot of stuff it would be improved by losing.

trogdor

Lol

They wouldn't agree on what though

XD

Miniman

Not a chance, nope.

trogdor

00:18

Just discussion on this site is enough to tell me that

A large part of my admiration for 4e involves it stripping out all the things I thought 3.5 could lose

And then filling in the missing space with better stuff to make it work

But if I explain it that way I might as well just say it's an entirely different beast

XD

Adeptus

00:44

@kviiri I explained the combat system a bit (which I really don't like). Everything is done with d6's. The stats are roughly the same as D&D's. Your con is your HP. Casting spells drains your str (but you recover it with rest). Most things other than combat are resolved by a saving throw: roll 2d6, add a stat, try to reach a target number - but if you roll a double, add it to your total & roll again. (you can get the free rules at DTRPG)

Pixie

@trogdor Eh, I kind of disagree there. I defend 4e's choice to use the language it did because from what I can see, it seems to support its design goals, and I also agree there was plenty of half-cocked criticism. But even if you're critical of 5e's design goals, which is fair, it's pretty clear that they are not the same as 4e's, and I don't think that kind of language really suits it the way it suited 4e.

I also think it's kind of fair that if people react badly to a certain type of language that a designer might want to avoid it in the future, whatever the valid reasons for the original choice to use it, and people did react badly.

trogdor

@Pixie ah I think there was a minor miscommunication

Pixie

That's not the only possible designer response, but it's not one that makes no sense, either. It did not come out of a vacuum. Whatever flaws 5e might have, it's been marketed much better and embraced much more widely.

trogdor

I wasn't trying to say 5th used a lot of 4e stuff

I was saying they borrowed a couple ideas from 4e and then made an effort to change them not to look like 4e stuff, the majority is not from 4e, and what is has been changed in some way to be sure

But to me those changes look like a cynical attempt to hide the fact that they thought anything at all from 4e was a good idea

That being said I understand if that sounds ridiculous

@Pixie that's also fair

The rest mechanics in 5e are an excellent example of what I mean

They look to me a lot like a 4e rest mechanic execpt mutated to try and make it look less like a 4e mechanic

Adeptus

@trogdor do you mean 5e abilities that reset on a short rest = 4e "per encounter"

trogdor

01:00

@Adeptus well,.. they use something like surges for healing execpt done in a slightly slightly different way

I have not gotten past level 2 yet and have not seen abilities that recharge after a short rest

Pixie

I don't think that sounds ridiculous, I just disagree that these weren't necessarily decisions based in design goals. Obviously I'm not on the design team, so I can't tell you for sure. :P But it does make sense to me that if people were alienated by 4e's increased use of gamey language, and they definitely were, trying to avoid that alienation could result in using different language. That, to me, is a design goal.

trogdor

@Pixie fair enough there

Pixie

It's arguable how necessary or effective or well-executed it is, but. :v

trogdor

I guess I can agree with that

Adeptus

@trogdor oh, the hit dice healing on a short rest?

trogdor

01:02

I'm just annoyed by the way it looks to me

@Adeptus that is straight out of 4e

Execpt of course they tweaked it a little

And to be clear,... I don't hate them using ideas from 4e

I do dislike the blatant attempt to hide it

That may be a little unfair of me even

But it's a very emotional response from someone who actually liked the previous system

I both feel like I have to appoligize for that and like saying "screw it I'm right"

Pixie

Yeah, I understand. If it makes sense, though, that's the same kind of emotional response people who felt alienated by the language of 4e might feel, too?

An issue here is that the audience for D&D is absolutely gargantuan and is actually made up of many different audiences which cannot all be satisfied simultaneously, but both D&D's creators (who benefit from getting everyone to buy their product if they can :P) and a lot of its players put forth the illusion that it somehow can do that, every single edition.

trogdor

@Pixie no yeah that's exactly why I'm mad about it

XD

I dislike the playing both sides of the feild they have attempted yet again

But to me, 5th looks like a really bloated exaggerated version of that

Possibly just because they have more material than ever to do it with

Pixie

Yeah. But those issues existed with 4e, too. Again, it was not well marketed at all. I honestly think 4e would have had a much better life if it had been branded not as 4e but as its own thing, because it was (clearly) not what a lot of 3.5 players were looking for, and telling them "no, really, it is" is kind of insulting.

trogdor

@Pixie yeah I can see that

I personally appreciated 4e being so different from 3.5 but if it wasn't marketed as a big different thing that isn't ok

Pixie

But I can't give a more informed opinion than that because I haven't played 4e, and I haven't played 5e in depth enough yet. It certainly has worked better for my group than 3.5 did so far, and there are things I like better about it, but I'm still hardpressed to say it would be my first pick if my group weren't as enthused about it as they are right now.

trogdor

01:17

I don't have too much experience in 5th either yet

Pixie

Yeah, I certainly don't think it's a bad thing that 4e was a very different game.

trogdor

But the little I have had is,... Very reminiscent of 3.5, while dangling mangled bits of 4e and some other tweaks in front of me

Even putting aside the 5th edition marketing,... The system itself feels like that to me

@Pixie yeah I didn't think you did,

I do think that marketing it as anything other than the huge departure from 3.5 that it was is simply heinous

Pixie

Yeah. I think... mm... I can appreciate the honesty in focusing on tactical combat, because that's always what D&D in any incarnation has excelled at. But I also kind of raise a brow at kind of tossing out the desires of a very large portion of the existing audience if you're marketing an edition as the new, improved, complete replacement that everybody should use, as WotC tends to do.

trogdor

@Pixie I completely agree with you on that point

They really should stop doing that

I'm also pretty sure they never will stop though

Pixie

No, probably not, especially because it happened to work out for them this time around. It just alienated a different portion of the audience...

trogdor

01:33

Well it's worked for them every time except arguably 4e

Every new addition has made some people mad

I don't know how much they made each time though

But apparently the business model is working for them

Pixie

Yeah. P:

trogdor

Heck, if they made any money off of 4e it worked that time too

I can't say I was there to witness the backlash to the introduction of 2 or 3

For all I know it could have been just as bad as to 4e

And for 5th edition I have not been one of it's supporters so I also can't say I Know just how much backlash it's had

I do very much still dislike 5th edition even excluding the same.e toxic marketing they have, I assume , always used for ever edition

Pixie

01:52

I don't really know it in detail, but there were major issues with 4e; they didn't make the money Hasbro wanted them to, and a large part of their marketing strategy (the virtual tabletop 4e was meant to work with) never got off the ground, I think maybe in part because of unsatisfactory book sales. That said, that doesn't mean it didn't turn a profit; I have no idea there. I just know it didn't do what Hasbro wanted it to do, but that could mean a great many different things.

trogdor

It strikes me just from the material of them trying to incorporate too many disparate design choices

Pixie

I would, again, have to explore it more in depth to say with much finality, but that's my feeling so far, yeah.

trogdor

@Pixie @BESW has tried to educate me a little on their business practices

Suffice to say I still don't entirely understand it but they have really strange short term benefit policies because of some strange reasons

Pixie

I'm looking for actual sales numbers right now, and they seem kind of hard to come by.

trogdor

Yeah that seems like a thing they wouldn't make it easy to find

Adeptus

02:03

@trogdor I wasn't playing when they went from 1e->2e. But I have played 2e & seen 1e stuff. My impression is, it was a fairly small change, more on the scale of 3e->3.5e. Come to think of it... I wasn't playing D&D when they released 3e either...

Pixie

Yeah, I came into the hobby pretty shortly after 3.5 was released.

Welp, I found solid numbers for D&D sales in 1984. :v But, yeah, I don't think Wizards generally makes specific sales figures known, at least not these days. They say vague things like this.

trogdor

02:26

Lol

We're more popular now!

What numbers though? XD

Pixie

Yep. Of course that's how they're going to spin it. :P

I wonder how they arrived at the number of people who'd played D&D?

There are photos of the presentation here, and really, I'm curious about that 8.6 million figure.

trogdor

@Pixie good point

They would have to assume group sizes for every book sold

And not everyone has the same books even within edition

Pixie

Yeah, it's difficult for me to put any faith in it whatsoever without knowing how they got there. :P

trogdor

And some groups will have multiple people with books and some will only have one

Heck, some groups could be sharing the one guy who has all those books

Pixie

Yeah. The streaming numbers are a bit more believable as Twitch hits can be counted with some level of accuracy, though I'm not sure exactly what all they included, so it's still a bit... ???

But I think it is a definite that the prevalence of streaming drives sales.

trogdor

02:33

Yeah I don't see how they could get any accurate numbers

Pixie

I mean, I just popped over to just the first episode of Critical Role on Youtube alone and saw that it had over 8 million hits (since 2015), so I'm inclined to say all Twitch streams over a year (including Critical Role's) totaling 9 million is at least believable to me, even if it's not something I can reverse engineer.

trogdor

I specifically mean thier numbers for the people in the hobby

Pixie

Yeah, that's another story entirely.

trogdor

Streaming is easier to pinpoint

@Adeptus so you didn't observe much backlash from then I guess

Still, hardly definitive I guess

@Pixie oh hold up i just noticed what you meant

They claim more or less exact numbers within a year

Of people who played in that time

I don't buy that for a second

Pixie

Yeeeah.

trogdor

02:44

If someone bought some of the books that doesn't immediately mean they have played the game

Unless they literally spied illegally on more than 8 million people through the course of a year exactly as they played DND

Which is absurd and immoral on ridiculous levels

XD

Pixie

Was I counted, WotC? Was I counted? Are you in my head? Get out of there!

trogdor

Lol

Was I in that? Where can I tell you to shove it so I never get your spycams again?

Better yet, which of your Warehouses do I need to burn down to no longer count as a "fan"

@nitsua60 Ah just the sheep I needed :P

Pixie

Hmm, on the subject of 1e and also games like T&T, does anyone have streamlined OSR type games they'd recommend? I'm kind of interested in that type of system, but I'm always straining between simplicity and... I guess things like personalization and flavor. It's pretty hard for me to look at a game with four classes where everyone of a specific class has all the same options and feel enthused... but the more detail you add, the more unwieldy it's going to get.

I guess part of my search is identifying the details I personally prioritize and figuring out if there is a game that cares about them and not the ones I don't. :v

trogdor

What are you looking for in a system?

I know I talk an awfull lot about D&D but at this point I have more experience with other things

Pixie

03:00

Hmm. That's something I think about a lot. I wish I got the chance to try more of the systems I have stockpiled.

trogdor

Time is an elusive and taunting beast

Especially if you mean lining up a whole group schedule

nitsua60

@trogdor What's up? You need something torched?

trogdor

@nitsua60 you played first edition and second right?

nitsua60

Yup.

trogdor

Did you observe,... A certain amount of backlash because of the changes second edition made?

nitsua60

03:05

@trogdor I was not aware/connected enough to have a read on that. Hell, for the first five years I was playing the shelf/game was a mish-mash of D&D, AD&D, and AD&D 2e.

trogdor

Fair enough

nitsua60

1e phb & dmg, d&d modules, 2e splat =)

trogdor

I think the age of the internet has spoiled me a bit on that front

Joel Harmon

@trogdor There was enough backlash from 3.5 -> 4, and 4-> 5, that I would be shocked if there wasn't similar for other edition changes.

trogdor

@JoelHarmon that's my oppinion too but

I kinda wanted it right from someone's actuall observation from the time

Joel Harmon

03:09

@trogdor Yeah, to be fair, that's based on a series of informal discussions between friends of mine, not any kind of wide-ranging poll.

trogdor

I was very tempted to use the phrase right from the horses mouth :P

Pixie

Right now specifically I'd love something that supports a sandboxy hex crawl style in a world that is magical and unpredictable, that encourages both exploration of the world and combat that is potentially (but not frequently) mortal... but I also like players to be able to differentiate themselves from each other and feel like they have some choice in who their character is, if that makes sense? It's nice when there's mechanical support for, e.g., every cleric not being like every other cleric.

But I think my group also tends to struggle with systems that say "you can be anything, just write some things down off the top of your head and give them some numbers."

trogdor

Mmm

Yeah ok

nitsua60

@trogdor Second paragraph: I know that letter-writers had a strong reaction =)

trogdor

I think one issue is that having classes at all makes it hard for any members of the class not to feel similar to others

nitsua60

03:13

@trogdor I think there's a "valley" in that curve. Lemme explain...

@Pixie I find this interesting, because I've just been writing up a description of a party for a new player who's going to be joining. As a bit of background, the only classes allowed at chargen were barbarian, fighter, rogue, sorcerer, wizard.

trogdor

@nitsua60 fair enough

Pixie

Yep. I'd definitely be interested in classless systems and have done some digging around, but it's hard to balance that and my friends seeming to prefer something to go on and inspire them being in the rules. A lot of the options there include point buy systems like M&M and BESM that try to incorporate as many different skills as possible. I think we all agree that it's fun and inspiring but also often... kind of overwhelming in practice.

trogdor

But not having classes sort of worries away at the structure of a dungeon crawling exploring fighting experience

nitsua60

So the party description was "Qualinesti rogue, human sorcerer with a keen eye for architecture, dwarf barbarian from near the Icewall, human fighter who's more interested in his lute than his warhammer, human fighter who's a Huma fanboy, human fighter who goes where you tell and hits what you say."

Pixie

That's quite an interesting party!

nitsua60

03:17

For me, the four-class model means that it's the character choices, not the mechanical choices, that distinguish characters. (Obviously that's a huge oversimplification, btu hopefully you get what I'm trying to express?)

(Only four races were allowed at chargen, too.)

trogdor

@nitsua60 Huma, ugh

nitsua60

@trogdor (Don't say that around this guy!)

trogdor

Don't remind me of Dragonlance

@nitsua60 come at me you silver loving squirt

XD

nitsua60

@trogdor lolfigsl

Pixie

Yeah, I understand that point of view. For me, though, it's kind of like... if I'm not feeling inspired by mechanics, it's just as easy for me to not bother and play freeform games or games that don't bother too much with character-specific mechanics at all.

trogdor

03:20

@Pixie it sounds a little like you want something that fits a criteria for you and a separate thing that works for the group

And to have them both work in the same system

Pixie

I would be interested in multiple different games that fit different things I'm interested in, heh. I am not sure it's possible to combine all the things I want and all the things everyone in my group wants into one game, although that would be super awesome. :v

nitsua60

modular design =)

trogdor

Yeah I don't know of anything that fits those criteria

Except maybe possibly Fate of Agaptus

But if I recall correctly you have had some trouble with Fate

And I have not personally tried Agaptus yet so that too

Pixie

Yeah, I'm still trying to diagnose those.

trogdor

@nitsua60 which one though?

XD

I mean,... Besides fighting GSS has a lot, I think, of what you described, but only from my limited underanding of what you want

Plus the game is typically anchored in one small village or town

Agaptus I mentioned, and it's Fate so yeah

Have you ever tried Lady Blackbird?

Instead of classes that has stats for specific people

It sort of straddles mechanical complexity and free form decision making around the plot

It has a suggested starting scenario but you could also come up with something else instead of or afterwards

Pixie

03:30

I did enjoy playing Dungeon World, and I know the people in my group who have experience with PbtA rather enjoy it. It seems like a good happy medium in general; I can look at individual DW playbooks and imagine quite a lot of different characters, each of whom can have slightly different options. But I'm not sure it's ideal for the kind of game we want right now, and I'm not sure I'm ready to run it.

As for Lady Blackbird, mm, I admit the setting is a bit of a barrier to me, but I'm interested in the game it was based on... whose name I'm forgetting right now...

trogdor

Ah

I can see not everyone liking the setting

I like it a lot but it definitely has a lot of elements crammed in there

Pixie

I tend not to gravitate toward steampunk and Victoriana much. There are exceptions, but it's hard for me to look over the contents of Lady Blackbird and get terribly excited. I'm also not fond of premade characters; it's hard for me to bond with them (not much of an issue for me GMing, more from the standpoint of me potentially ever playing LB).

But the system is interesting, and someday perhaps I will attempt to reskin it into something I'd be a bit more into.

nitsua60

@Pixie I feel like I've seen an archive of LB re-skins somewhere... [rummages]

Pixie

@nitsua60 Ooh, I'd love to check that out if you can find it.

nitsua60

It's not this one I was thinking of, but this is one.

livingfree.wikidot.com/hackbird

Hrmm... I'll keep poking around.

Pixie

03:43

Thanks!

trogdor

Cool

@Pixie ah that's too bad on the premade character front

I thought that would be a good fix to one of the requirements

I get it though

I can take or leave them myself

I really really like Naiomi Bishop

I still haven't played any of the other characters because she was my favorite from the start

Pixie

I've never really enjoyed playing premade characters, not even fandom characters I have an existing bond with. Creation and discovery of a character is a pretty necessary part of the fun for me. I've branched into fanfic recently (quite unexpectedly), so I've considered trying fandom RP one more time, but I'm still not terribly interested, I think.

Aww, the description "Rednecks in space!" was immediately alluring, but the game within doesn't look like my cup of tea. Alas.

trogdor

On the whole I'm in the same boat as you

If I'm playing a character I usually want to have a hand in deciding "who they are"

Pixie

04:01

Solar System, that's the game I'm trying to think of.

The one Lady Blackbird is based on.

The Oracle

04:13

0

Q: How can I find my deleted questions?

There are badges that require a "positive question record", and this post gives the following way of calculating whether you have such a record. (total questions - negative questions - closed - deleted)/total questions >= 0.5 I'm having trouble reconciling this, however, as I can't actually fi...

0

Q: Can we clarify Game Recommendation/Shopping questions further?

I recently wanted to ask a question to see if something was possible RAW in any published RPG systems. It was eventually put on hold as Off Topic - Game Recommendation, and I proceeded to try to edit it into a stackable format. What I ended up with could be distilled to: Are there any X that ...

discussion questions on-topic game-recommendation

Pixie

Though I suppose the issue there is while Lady Blackbird is too specific for my tastes, Solar System is intimidatingly open. :P Where is the middle ground I seek...

trogdor

It's definitely hiding in a fine line

If it's out there

Pixie

Oh yeah, I suddenly recall, I wanted to search around for anything people have done with Pokemon and Digimon in Fate since they were mentioned in chat at some point, for completely different gameplay goals from the ones described. :v So many things I'd like to play...

trogdor

I have not

Digimon was never a big thing for me

Pixie

It was very important to me in my childhood, and I've been rewatching it with a couple of friends and getting all reinvested.

trogdor

04:19

Pokemon,... I always treated that as a solo experience of training 6 of my choice up to higher levels

I did watch some Digimon as a kid but it never fully grabbed me

Pixie

That's fair. I liked it in general, but there were some characters that touched me pretty deeply as a kid. Not sure if I would have been as lastingly into it if not for that.

Although now as an adult I'm really enjoying the way they set up each arc.

Miniman

Holy crap, I just figured out how storing Pokemon in PCs works.

The PC scans them and saves a bunch of data on them, then when you pull them out it 3D prints them.

trogdor

@Miniman implying it's actually technically different every time?

Miniman

Related PSA.

Pixie

Pff.

All I can recall about PC lore is the weird part where Bill gets fused with a Pokemon.

Miniman

04:32

It's always puzzled me, though. Are Pokemon digital? Are they physical? Do they switch between the two?

Pixie

Well, pokeballs convert them to energy, I believe...

But beyond that, I've got nothing.

Adeptus

05:01

@Pixie I saw an announcement a while ago, that 5e PHB has sold more copies than 3.0 and 3.5 PHBs combined (and I think 3.5 was the previous biggest seller?) But some people own the books & haven't played, others have huge groups with only one PHB between them, others rely on Basic & SRD. (and others pirate...)

I think they're pretty safe in their claim that this is the most popular edition, but it's hard to get definitive numbers

BESW

RPG publishers' sales figures are notoriously confidential. Evil Hat is one of the only publishers that makes their numbers freely available.

trogdor

I am pretty fond of Evil Hats business model

Pixie

@Adeptus Yeah, it's impossible to extrapolate actual usage from book sales alone due to all of the above. I play, but I don't own a book; I get along with Basic and SRD and the fact that my GM owns a book.

Adeptus

Also, 3.x SRD wasn't usable as a sole rules source, as it left out important core rules such as how to create and advance a character. 5e SRD & Basic include all that, and can be used as sole rules source.

Pixie

05:21

That's a good point. Not something I tend to think about since if I really had to do it, I could probably make a character using the info in the d20 SRD -- but that's because I already know how to do it. I didn't learn it from the SRD.

trogdor

Yeah DND has an issue with assuming people already know how to do that kind of thing

Adeptus

The 3.x SRD left it out deliberately. It's in the license conditions that you can't include that info

(Actually, not certain about the license conditions. But it was still deliberate)

Pixie

05:43

Pretty sure that's the case. The link to their trademark license was broken, but I see some answers here indicating that you cannot explain character creation in a d20 SRD-based product.

There's one here that goes into more detail:

> No d20 System Product can include rules for character creation or applying experience. In exchange for using the d20 logo you are prohibited from making a product that replaces the core rulebooks. Covered Products supplement the core rulebooks; they may not replace them. That is why all Covered Products must state that they require the use of the core rules.

Though that has to do with permission to use the logo. I can look at neither the d20 System Trademark License nor the OGL because the links are down and the d20 System Trademark License, at least, did not seem to be successfully captured by Wayback Machine. :P

Adeptus

06:43

I found the OGL license: opengamingfoundation.org/ogl.html

Pretty sure 5e still uses the same license

(it's also required to be included with any product using OGL-licensed content)

the d20STL is proving harder to find details of...

kviiri

Good morning friends

Adeptus

@kviiri good afternoon

Pixie

08:33

Oh, no. Taking a look at Simple World out of curiosity, I'm in love with one of the examples right out of the gate:

> Courtney wants to use Simple World to play a “unicorn-riding ladies on a quest” game. She names her stats Grace (reflexive/graceful), Charm (persuasive/assertive), Daring (aggressive/forceful), Cunning (calculating/methodical), and Whim (inquisitive/exploratory).

doppelgreener

That's fabulous

Pixie

It is, I love it.

kviiri

@Derpy Have you ever watched the DnD Saturday Morning cartoon? I've mostly heard memes about it (afaik it never aired here)

How much of it is... y'know, just riding on a license or is it actually faithful to DnD-like concepts of roleplaying?

I literally know nothing of the series apart from there being this guy with a shield (Eric?) who always whines about everything and gets everyone in trouble because apparently going against the group was out of fashion in children's entertainment of the time.

Derpy

@kviiri never saw it, sorry. I read on wikipedia that the show had problem because it was considered too violent at the time. By the same people that claimed D&D would turn kids in demon worshipers.

oookkk, seems pretty weird so far.

Created by Disney for Hasbro, animations done by Toei with character design made by Marvel? WHAT?

Pixie

08:54

That's quite a team. Collaboration wasn't unheard of back then, though. American companies used to outsource animation to Japanese companies, in the same way that both American and Japanese companies tend to outsource to Korean companies nowadays.

Well, outsourcing animation to Korean companies is nothing new either, but I'd say it's more common than ever, whereas it's pretty rare to see an American company having a company like Toei do its animation these days. There are still occasional international collabs, though, like Miraculous Ladybug.

Which is Zagtoon and Method Animation in France, with De Agostini Editore in Italy, Toei Animation in Japan, and SAMG Animation in South Korea. I think SAMG mainly handles the animation since they went to the CGI model, but there's supposed to be a 2D OVA at some point, possibly by Toei (but possibly not).

trogdor

09:11

@Pixie that sounds pretty cool

Derpy

09:36

@kviiri anyway, had a look at Tv Tropes.

Seems it is even considered canon.

kviiri

That's pretty neat

Derpy

09:51

that said, they also point out thing like:

> The Beholder in the series shoots lightning from each eye of its tentacles, while in the game, each tentacle has a different ability. In "The Eye Of The Watchman", the comic adaptation of "The Eye Of The Beholder", the Beholder is called a Watchman.
Presto does not demonstrate innate magical ability without his hat. In game terms, it is unclear if Presto is a true Magician or someone with high Intelligence and a Use Magic Device Skill.
The Animated Series Handbook describes the Energy Bow as capable of radiating light and firing magic arrows, but does not have rules for its ability to cr…

kviiri

10:06

Eh

Sounds a bit nitpicky to me :>

Derpy

@kviiri oh, well, you were the one asking about how loyal they where to the rules :P

kviiri

@Derpy Not the rules, just the general feel

BESW

Welp, I got an Android gift card and then the Deck of Fate and Dresden Files Co-op game went on sale.

trogdor

10:22

lol

did that just, go away really fast?

BESW

Zoom.

I mean, I have Opinions about the Dresden Files but I've heard really good things about the card game and also its mobile interface design.

trogdor

I thought we looked at the Dresden Files Co-op game and you didn't like it?

kviiri

@BESW I like how your capital O expresses your Opinions :>

Urgh. What's with all the keto spam.

trogdor

there is a lot for sure

BESW

10:37

@trogdor I didn't back it on Kickstarter, but we've never really looked at it. It's a tabletop card game that also has a digital desktop/app version.

@kviiri O yes.

trogdor

@BESW ah fair enough

kviiri

11:28

Hot in here

My favorite topic for whining lately :>

BESW

@kviiri Maybe we should be concerned that we no longer have a Smoke Detector.

David Coffron

@BESW it just got moved to another chat I thought

trogdor

it did

David Coffron

Jul 23 at 19:14, by doppelgreener

FYI: Smoke Detector will now post in Not A Bar instead of here as a trial. If you feel like it should be switched back to posting here, ping me.

trogdor

that is, I believe, what he is referencing

kviiri

11:37

A friend just posted me how the perception modifier is calculated in Pathfinder 2e

trogdor

is it weird?

kviiri

Wisdom mod + proficiency mod + circumstance bonus + conditional bonus + item bonus + circumstance penalty + conditional penalty + item penalty + untyped penalties"

(I haven't checked but that's apparently in the book like that)

trogdor

uhhh

wow

kviiri

haha more like... MATHFINDER am I right?

2

David Coffron

@kviiri I mean... those are all the modifiers

trogdor

11:40

no thanks lol

kviiri

(joke not original)

trogdor

@DavidCoffron but in the book like that is,.... a bit much

kviiri

@DavidCoffron Yeah it's honestly probably not as bas as it seems

David Coffron

I doubt you will have all of them at once often though

But why didn't they combine the bonuses and penalties in some overarching rule though

trogdor

maybe it's an example piece

David Coffron

11:41

That would make it a little cleaner

kviiri

I'd just say something like "you can benefit/suffer from at most one item, one circumstance, etc at a time"

trogdor

like perception might be the "this is how it works" example

just a thought

kviiri

I wonder what's the difference between conditional and circumstance

David Coffron

@kviiri conditional comes from environment, circumstance comes from entities, item comes from objects?

kviiri

That's possible (is it that way in 1e?)

BESW

12:15

I'm pretty sure 3.5 had the same equation-like layout a few times.

The Oracle

13:07

2

Q: How to handle incorrect 3rd party sources

In this answer, the quote provided from Roll20 incorrectly capitalizes the "a" in attack. In this situation, should we: Fix the quote so it's correct but leave the citation link Fix the quote so it's correct and link or cite a source that IS correct Leave it alone and let downvotes sort out t...

discussion

Rubiksmoose

13:26

@NautArch does this link work? dndbeyond.com/spells/shocking-grasp

Sir Cinnamon

Works for me

Did you guys see this? beadleandgrimms.com/store-swag/platinum-edition

Rubiksmoose

Thanks! I had to generate it manually nd wanted to make sure.

Yuuki

@trogdor Spoilers for a super-old game, but he was telling the story to another major character who had basically forgotten everything because the Prince rewinds the entirety of the game at the end.

Rubiksmoose

@SirCinnamon I wonder what a "premium DM screen" is lol.

Sir Cinnamon

@Rubiksmoose i think they just tacked on an adjective

Rubiksmoose

13:40

@SirCinnamon Marketing in a nutshell?

Sir Cinnamon

@Rubiksmoose "Hey you gotta buy some real estate in this nutshell! Cozy and warm, buy now before supply runs out"

Rubiksmoose

@SirCinnamon hahahah. reading that in a super high voice adds considerable value I think.

Does anybody have a PHB page number for shocking grasp on hand?

Colin Gross

14:00

@Rubiksmoose 275

Rubiksmoose

@ColinGross Thanks

KorvinStarmast

For FATE players and GMs, can this question be massaged and improved to be stackable?

Pixie

I feel like it can be improved, and I have a background pretty similar to the querant, as well as similar problems with face to face roleplay (though more experience doing it), so I would really love if it could be. But so far I have only played Fate online and haven't managed to get it to work for me, so I'm not in a position to answer it regardless.

Hmm... I think the key may be digging down into the precise issues the asker has and framing it as a question of whether Fate as a system has tools that address them, and also whether - it seems focusing on D&D is appropriate here - the ability to "hide behind the dice" is a more effective tool or not.

That said, Fate is hardly a light system, so it could be that the desire to project impartiality via mechanics may be fulfilled.

KorvinStarmast

@Pixie The situation the asker is in, having social anxiety to that degree, is one that is so foreign to me that I can't even offer advice on that aspect of the question, which seems to be a core element of the problem. I sincerely hope that someone who has experience in that challenge in life is able to better "see" how to address that core challenge.

It might be where an experience based answer is useful; hope someone can offer that but I appreciate why the various closed as opinion have been cast already.

Colin Gross

14:16

@Rubiksmoose I really like the wood and brass custom jobs, but heck even this youtube.com/watch?v=IH1zx1Wqd5g would beat the cardboard crap peddled by merchants.

Pixie

Yeah. I'll think about it. I have bad anxiety and a lot of trouble roleplaying face to face or even over a Discord voice channel... but my reasons are personal to me, as the asker's would be to them... hmm.

Colin Gross

@Pixie Sounds like a job for a professional counselor or therapist. Would recommend visiting one to anyone.

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