TRPG General Chat

NautArch

3:00 PM

And once they hear the wrong voice...

Stabby stabby

Rubiksmoose

how many different Ranger archetypes/subclasses/whatever were there in 3/3.5?

ravery

@MikeQ -- At one point the shipments are secreted away at night via a secret passage. they need to discover this. There is a few different ways they might gain the information or atleast clue to it

Mike Q

@NautArch Once they hear the wrong voice, they would probably try to raise the alarm first

@ravery Other checks may come up too, like intimidate (e.g. "You dare question my identity? How dare you! I will report you to the high inquisitor for subordination!"). Also you may want to engage the other players, rather than having everyone sit around and watch the bard interact with the NPCs.

ravery

@MikeQ yes, Ideally each would choose a different method of investigation to run somewhat simultaneously to gain all the clues.

which will lead to the rogue picking a lock and discovering the secret passage

Mike Q

3:17 PM

@ravery That's one option but you should have others. From one GM to another: Avoid setting up anything that is contingent on a specific course of action from a specific player.

Unless you and the players are okay with railroading specific PCs

ravery

@MikeQ -- yes there a few ways to get past the lock, picking it is the least risky

and I think they will recognize that

and the sprite might be better at searching for the secret passage

I've had to improvise a few times based on what they chose to do instead of what they should have done

The barabarian is a good role-player, spent 10 minutes convincing him not to take the dragon egg they acquired with them on the mission

Rubiksmoose

3:33 PM

I'm still not happy with that Ranger question, but I am just not able to elaborate on why exactly. I just think it is way too broad. But maybe I am just grumpy or something.

NautArch

@Rubiksmoose did somebody say grumpy? I'm here!

Rubiksmoose

@NautArch hahaha. We could have a grump-off.

NautArch

It's interesting to see Carcer's JC quotes about the ranger and player unhappiness from old and then the newer ones where he seems to walk that back.

Rubiksmoose

@NautArch Indeed. Reading between the lines he seems to be blaming the Revised Ranger for making perceptions of the Ranger worse.

NautArch

@Rubiksmoose I've got a ranger in my game who I let switch to the Revised. The revised is crazy powerful.

Mike Q

3:36 PM

I'm sure that an answer along the lines of "The ranger is not historically weak, and here is why" would be fine per the stack standards

Rubiksmoose

@MikeQ Yeah it would certainly be an interesting frame challenge, but it would be pretty hard to pull off I feel. You have to do some sort of analysis in each relevant version to show that it is not in fact underpowered.

And I don't even know how you would treat all the archetypes/subclasses in the evaluations.

ravery

the ranger I made with 5e rules is a pretty heavy melee hitter

Rubiksmoose

@NautArch JC's big thing now is that there will be no alternate classes released. They are going to fix it on a feature to feature level I guess.

(if at all)

Mike Q

In terms of a 3e, 3.5e, 5e analysis, it may be worthwhile to mention that the ranger's strengths are often circumstantial, whereas most of the other classes gain power through versatility and being able to prepare for a variety of challenges

Rubiksmoose

For anyone who missed my talk on YouTube and Twitter about the ranger and other classes in 2017: –We’re not releasing a second version of a class. Too confusing for people. –We continue to explore ways to make the classes you have better, including revision in rare cases. #DnD https://twitter.com/RubiksMoose/status/1023961700880539648

Tweeted by JeremyECrawford on July 30, 2018 at 4:09 PM

Pixie

3:41 PM

@nitsua60 I'm toying with the idea of, later in the game I'm planning, presenting a pocket dimension that most of the area's unicorns fled to in the time of an ancient magical catastrophe that destroyed about half the nation the game was set in. The unicorns accidentally got themselves stuck, and the PCs will be able to enter and attempt rescue if they choose. I can only imagine their reaction if the reward was friendship. :v

Rubiksmoose

in response to this

ravery

@pixie -- friendship with the unicorn nation might be a significant boon :)

Rubiksmoose

Interestingly, the question we have about Ranger power comparison in 5e seems to trend towards Hunter is not UP but Beastmaster still is a poor option. here

Mike Q

Rangers aren't bad, and they excel in very specific situations. Otherwise they are a "jack of all trades, master of none" class. They get a smattering of partial abilities that other classes get, but never enough to outshine the other classes. They get martial abilities, but less than a fighter. They get spellcasting, but less than a druid. They may get extra battlefield coverage via a companion, but it's not as strong as a summoned monster (or in previous editions, the druid's companion).

Pixie

@ravery Yes, that in and of itself would be quite useful... unless the unicorns think the party's friendship is good enough and decide they'd rather keep to themselves. :P (Nah, I wouldn't actually do this.)

NautArch

3:45 PM

@Rubiksmoose Yup, and that quote actually seems to suggest they do NOT think there is a problem. Maybe a perceived problem, but not an actual one?

Rubiksmoose

@NautArch [shrug] I have no idea.

NautArch

@Rubiksmoose All I really know is I've played a brief encounter with a regular hunter ranger and enjoyed it. And seen the regular hunter vs the revised and feel the revised might actually be too powerful.

GreySage

@Pixie What happens when the PCs decide to domesticate the unicorns and start running a unicorn farm?

Mike Q

Rangers aren't even the best trackers or wilderness experts - druids are much better at this. Possibly clerics or wizards, or even a well-built rogue.

Pixie

@GreySage Then I'm totally game for my game becoming Unicorn Farm Simulator. :v (Though the unicorns might bane something to say about it.)

Colin Gross

3:50 PM

@MikeQ The complaints I've heard about rangers are along those lines. Even without multi-attack, the rogue outclasses them in damage output with a bow.

Pixie

Have, not bane. Ugh. That's one of my phone's favorites.

ravery

@NautArch - I built a hunter ranger level4, hunter's mark, colossal slayer, two wepon fighting style with dual finesse weapons and 18 dex. he rolls out 20-30 damage

and next level he getd extra attack

Colin Gross

@ravery That's not bad for a melee build actually. Definitely nice for taking down monolithic encounters.

NautArch

@ColinGross plus some CC spells and good out of combat utility, too.

Sir Cinnamon

I think its beast master that needs a little help, not ranger in general

ravery

3:58 PM

@ColinGross -- Yes, last night he almost took down a bugbear in a single round. Of course the mage hit it with Magic Missile first to trigger colossal

Colin Gross

You get 3 L1 slots or is it 4?

ravery

@NautArch -- yep he has heal also

Colin Gross

The slots are long rest though... 3 hunters marks isn't bad though.

ravery

@ColinGross 3 levle one slots at 4th

doppelgreener

god damn, this is a good articulation of my issues with favored enemies and terrain and similar abilities:

1

A: What about the ranger keeps making it weak?

D&D 3e designer Monte Cook gave this feedback on the ranger: I was always worried about the ranger. The fact that his abilities kick in when the DM wants them to (when the adventure contains his favored enemies) rather than when the player wants them to, like the barbarian, always seemed to m...

the ranger has a highly variable power level based on whether you are operating in your favoured terrain or not, and whether you are fighting your favoured enemies or not. most classes have general-purpose abilities that just work against most enemies, so have a more consistent power level.

the DM basically tells the ranger what power level they're at, but it also places responsibility on the DM to manage this, to regularly feature that favoured enemy and that terrain so the ranger can use their features, but not all the time.

Rubiksmoose

4:10 PM

@doppelgreener Yeah rangers also require a lot of collaboration to setup on character creation to make sure they don't screw themselves by choosing the wrong features. I've had that issue before.

doppelgreener

there's also narrative collaboration: whatever favoured enemy the ranger chooses now needs to be a mainstay of the campaign. did they choose giants? you now need to have lots of giants on a regular basis, and this says a lot about your game world, or at least the parts of it you will explore and be adventuring in and solving problems in. it says there are probably even giants in the dungeons beneath the cities.

so the GM and ranger need to work together to work out a range of options that will work for the campaign narrative, and then the GM needs to ensure they're regularly showing up.

Pixie

Yeah, other classes have abilities that work by default, and the DM can opt in to selecting monsters that present a greater challenge, but by and large most abilities will work on a large range of monsters. With a feature like favored enemy, that's reversed. I forget who was asking about options for seeking revenge on a specific character in PF, but I recall the situation being similar: any such options pale beside ones that let you wreak havoc not only on your intended enemy but on many others.

Colin Gross

@doppelgreener That's generally true for well run games. Collaborate on the story.

@Pixie Good point. Favored enemy is far more specific and does flip that opponent selection on it's head.

doppelgreener

That's true! It's very desirable to do that. But ranger is unusual in how much its power level depends on this plus GM management and cooperation.

Colin Gross

@doppelgreener Which is problematic for AL campaigns where the opponents are predetermined.

doppelgreener

4:20 PM

Right! For most features, "it doesn't work" is a remarkable exception. For a ranger, "it works" is the remarkable exception.

@ColinGross yeah, for AL there will be large swathes of the features being on or off (mostly off)

But then just don't play a ranger in AL I guess, or pick one of the highly relevant types.

Colin Gross

@doppelgreener That requires you reading the adventure ahead of time... which you may not be able to as you don't know what the GM is running all the time.

For the hardcovers like Out of the Abyss... or HotDQ.. sure.. it's a whole book and you could select a relevant opponent.

For the smaller sessions where you just know the tier it's roulette. Sure hope the boss lands on "giant"

Pixie

I'm kind of concerned about my vanilla M20 cleric because Turn Undead seems to be considered a major feature of the class, which is not something the class expansion I'm using revises. To put this in perspective, the shaman class another player is using swaps out Turn Undead for access to druid spells up to level 4. I'm always going to have to make sure there are enough undead to be turned, basically.

But then, if it's an issue, I can allow the player to swap it for something they like better, so it's not a big deal, I think.

Rubiksmoose

@ColinGross I'd honestly rather see a giant land on the boss.

Colin Gross

@Pixie Good point. Clerics have favored enemy chosen for them.

@Rubiksmoose I'm entertained.

Pixie

Yeah. It's nice to have this kind of point buy option available though, so we can just throw it out if it's unfun. The player mostly wants to be a healer, so it's not really needed.

Mike Q

4:35 PM

Rocks fall on PCs -> PCs die
PCs fall on rocks -> PCs die
PCs fall on PCs -> ???

Colin Gross

@MikeQ Hilarity ensues?

Rubiksmoose

@MikeQ depends. Are they micro ATX?

Colin Gross

@Rubiksmoose I think it more depends on the architecture.... were they power pcs? or maybe.. more risc-y?

Maximillian

Clearly gravity is wielding the PC as an improvised weapon when dropping on the other PC, so that's at least a -4 to hit. Since the PC is ammunition, if they miss hitting the other PC there is a 50% chance they are broken and unusable.

3

Mike Q

@Maximillian Can a ranger select "gravity" as a favored enemy

Rubiksmoose

4:39 PM

@Maximillian To be fair, if they were Macs they would have started that way [sick burn]

(jk everyone I have nothing against Apple)

NautArch

Weird thing with dndbeyond on shapechanger vs antimagic question. The barghest links the word Polymorph to the spell, but most others do not...

nitsua60

@Pixie Friendship is Magic, after all =)

NautArch

@nitsua60 my daughter still isn't a huge pony fan.

Mike Q

That's ok, being huge has a lot of penalties

NautArch

@MikeQ ohnoes.

Mike Q

4:51 PM

Although the use of "still" suggests that your daughter may eventually become a huge sized pony fan and take a -2 penalty to AC and attack rolls. Hopefully there's a decent Strength and Constitution boost as part of the change.

With a -12 penalty to Stealth checks, she will have a difficult time with hide-and-go-seek

GreySage

@MikeQ But she'll crush red-rover

NautArch

@MikeQ She's more of a party face than combat focused.

Mike Q

Oh that should be -8 to Stealth actually

A gargantuan pony fan would have a -12

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