TRPG General Chat

4:26 PM

o/

Ooh, I should look into the Fate versions. I'm not interested in the complex Pokemon ttrpgs I've seen, but I've been thinking about how to handle monster buddies in Fate for a while.

doppelgreener

@Pixie o////!!!

Pixie

Also, a question to leave before I must go: low level D&Dish monsters that aren't goblins, kobolds, skeletons, or bugbears. Stats aren't a huge deal as I'll likely have to tweak than anyway, but I'm looking for monsters that are interesting/cool yet don't exude "I will eat you alive, level 1 player" (now that my party has enthusiastically accepted the possibility that they might need to retreat occasionally).

The Masked Rebel

@Pixie yo

Pixie

Hey, and bye. :,v

doppelgreener

4:33 PM

Hi bye. :D

NautArch

@Pixie that is a Broad grenade to drop before leaving :)

Mike Q

@Pixie Short answer: Look at stats of low-level monsters, then reflavor them however you want

Rubiksmoose

@NautArch VTC

The Masked Rebel

Does anyone want to play a quick game of D&D in the TableTop gaming room

Mike Q

@Pixie My go-to beginner baddie is clockwork robots, and I think the Skeleton and Zombie stat block can achieve that

NautArch

4:36 PM

@MikeQ @Pixie You also need to decide if you want lots of low CR or single/fewer higher CR. I had a CR 1/2 creature (Skulk) wreck havoc on a party of 3 Level 1 PCs.

@TheMaskedRebel how quick? I'm doing some work and leaving in about an hour but could hop in.

The Masked Rebel

@NautArch 30 minuets

doppelgreener

@Pixie Oozes. Dire elk, which would be a bit scary because it's dire but a bit less scary because it's an elk; it's not a dire wolf at least. Boggles. Flumphs (mixed bag: definitely D&Dish, definitely interesting, absolutely not cool).

Hey, CR1 = appropriate for a team of 4-5 level 1 adventurers right?

Sdjz

@Pixie Mephits (small elementals), Blights (corrupted plants)

or a link only answer look at this list

doppelgreener

@Sdjz I was just about to link that XD

NautArch

@Sdjz Funnily enough, the next combat after the Skulk involved smoke mephits :)

Carcer

4:43 PM

that gods question is a bit awkward

Sdjz

@Pixie Oh also Pixies obviously :)

doppelgreener

@Secespitus hmm.... alternate spin: "You might think there's a lot of World of Darkness games but that's just peanuts to the RPG landscape."

Secespitus

@doppelgreener "You might think there are lots of editions of Dungeons and Dragons [...]"

doppelgreener

But the number of D&D editions is peanuts compared to the number of World of Darkness games :)

Secespitus

But Dungeons and Dragons is (as far as I can tell) often the starting point for many people into the world of RPGs.

But I guess you are right. Maybe WoD would be a better example.

In any case, it's fascinating how many RPGs are out there and how vastly different they can be.

Mike Q

4:53 PM

Speaking of which, do yall know of systems that have good implementations of tactical social mechanics?

Most systems I know of have tactical mechanics for combat (difficulty to hit (AC), progress (HP), types of ways to make progress (damage types), conditions, etc.) but other aspects of roleplay are grossly simplified (roll to pick the lock, roll to convince the guard, etc.)

I have yet to see a system that reflects stuff like social pressure, or progress of convincing someone, or mechanics of logos/ethos/pathos

Carcer

well, strictly

D&D

for progress in convincing someone perhaps

doppelgreener

@Secespitus We've only just started scratching the surface, too. The overwhelming majority of them are still fundamentally centered around violent physical conflict or prominently feature it. Imagine if the only movies we had were action movies, and someone saying "but what if it wasn't an action movie?" was a relatively novel idea.

Mike Q

D&D doesn't really handle social conflicts in a complex way. There are different social skills, but fundamentally it boils down to "Did you roll high enough on the d20"

Carcer

at least according to my recollection of 3e you don't make social rolls to make someone do a specific thing, the mechanics as written state that they influence the target's attitude to you

Pixie

Poking my head back in to say the game I'm playing doesn't have CR and a lot of difficulty will be down to things I decide. I'm just looking for flavor-wise suggestions of things a party with a couple of 3.5 vets won't look at and think "way too much" because of baggage.

Carcer

4:56 PM

and there is a system, of attitudes, which states how helpful or antagonistic someone is to you

NautArch

@Carcer ALthough it's more equivalent that all social encounters are grappling :) It's always who rolls the highest modifier of opposing skill checks (if you run it like that to begin with)

Sdjz

@MikeQ A song of ice and fire rpg does have some "social fighting" encounter mechanic things

doppelgreener

@Pixie The list linked though is one that has all the little low-level D&D monsters, so there'll be a bunch of D&D-ish ones in there

Carcer

you don't roll to convince the guard to let you by, you roll to make the guard like you/want to help you, which might or might not translate to "let you in", but could also mean something entirely different if he thinks there's a better option, etc.

Mike Q

@Carcer Again, those are mostly up to the GM, and they mainly just affect the social skill DC

Secespitus

4:57 PM

@doppelgreener Personally I think Golden Sky Stories is a great don't-kill-everything-you-come-across RPG, which is relatively rare (though I haven't played it... yet)

Carcer

no

the NPC's attitude describes how far it is willing to go to help you

you make checks to change their attitude

doppelgreener

@Secespitus Absolutely. Also Bubblegumshoe as teenagers resolving mysteries.

Carcer

that's the system as it's written

people often don't play it that way, I agree, but the system is there to make it more nuanced than just "oh, you got a 15? He lets you do what you want"

Secespitus

@doppelgreener For a comedy approach I think Cats of Catthulhu is also great. It does have eldritch abominations, but it also has lots of cats! And less "I am hitting till it's dead" and more "I am trying to charm that two-foot to follow me so the others can go on and solve the mystery".

There are a few good games that don't rely on hitting stuff.

Mike Q

@Carcer Right, there is the limitation that social goals are expected to be reasonable in that way. Like it's possible to convince the guard to let you pass, but unlikely to convince them to give you their property and life savings.

But still, the social task itself is mechanically simple compared to the massive complexity of combat

Secespitus

5:03 PM

@doppelgreener I am also looking forward to see how the Journey Away Kickstarter will play out.

Pixie

Thanks for the link, I haven't used Beyond much but that's super handy! (In and out because of work.)

Sdjz

@MikeQ If you're interested you can check the SoIF intrigue system here (starting on page 17)

Mike Q

@NautArch Yes, grappling would be a good analogue of what I'm asking about. A system where the social encounters have mechanics for having the upper hand, putting pressure on different characters, and so on.

Carcer

okay, sure

I didn't mean to argue it's a very deep system at all - it's obviously quite shallow and simple still

but it should get a little credit for being slightly more complex than most people think it is

NautArch

@MikeQ A lot of RP encounters can be done through opposing checks.

Mike Q

5:10 PM

Right, there are multiple social skills, which means players have roleplay choice and can use different social skills depending on the goal of the social encounter

Ultimately though, the success or failure is often determined by a single player's skill check, and the permissiveness of the GM

NautArch

@MikeQ Right, but that also generally makes sense for social. You don't have multiple people interacting against a single (like in combat.) ANd if you do, you could grant advantage (or disadvantage) depedning on how they're interacting together.

Carcer

there's kind of an issue that as social animals we (usually) naturally grasp those kinds of dynamics and people who care that much about the social/political aspect of RPGs generally just actually roleplay it rather than using a mechanical system

your common person has conversations and arguments etc. all the time

NautArch

^is this new?

Carcer

combat is so formalised because that's difficult to act out in a reasonable way.

Mike Q

Well, what if combat was simplified so that combat options were simplified to individual skills, and whether or not the party succeeds is determined by flat DCs. That's sort of how the system treats social encounters.

Secespitus

5:14 PM

@NautArch It's the new style for favourite and ignored tags that seems to have been rolled out to the smaller sites just now.

It's been on MSE and SO for a little while.

NautArch

@Secespitus meh. Kind of takes up quite a bit of screen real estate.

Secespitus

@NautArch Yeah, that was one of the main criticisms, but apparently they still thinks this is a good way to promote favourite/ignored tags. If I remember the discussions correctly it's mostly because very few people actually use these options.

NautArch

@Secespitus Yeah, always make sense to heavily promote a tool that few people actually use. Good UI call. :/

Be interesting to see if it increase usage of that feature.

Secespitus

@NautArch The idea is probably "People are not aware of it. Let's make them aware!" Not sure what they hope to achieve with this, but well, there is a lot going on with the redesign projects, so let's see what else comes next...

Mike Q

Also, regarding social skills being assumed because we use them in everyday life - Many people overestimate their communication skills and are actually terrible at persuading others. For those who are persuasive, it's often because they use strategies, like presenting logical arguments, manipulating emotions, or applying peer pressure.

Secespitus

5:25 PM

@NautArch Here is the MSE announcement if you are interested

NautArch

@MikeQ I dunno, there's the DC methodology. But there's also the opposing skills methodology.

Mike Q

@NautArch And that is usually sufficient in most systems. But again, it's not very tactical other than "roll high enough".

NautArch

@MikeQ Isn't that the same as combat, though?

Mike Q

@NautArch It would be, if combat lasted one turn and didn't have things like HP, conditions, damage types, etc.

NautArch

Or no because there are no 'stages' in RP that combat has (functionally with HP)

Rubiksmoose

5:29 PM

@NautArch Technically RP does have a bit of that since an NPC can have Pos/Neg/Neutural disposition towards you and you can use CHA to change this.

NautArch

@Rubiksmoose I should definitely look at those more. DMG?

doppelgreener

@MikeQ Right, socialising is a skill we can learn and master and pick up tactics and strategies and so on for.

Some of the things I can do socially are because I received specialised training for consulting work.

Rubiksmoose

@NautArch You know, I'm not actually sure where this is written.

doppelgreener

But also as violent animals we intuitively grasp how violence works .... but we still have rules for combat

Rubiksmoose

@NautArch I know it is often written into specific modules talking about NPC dispositions, but not sure where, if anywhere, the general rules are written.

doppelgreener

5:35 PM

@Carcer I care about that and I specifically used a system that mechanised it because I didn't just want to freeform it. I chose fate because it lends equal mechanical weight to social situations.

Mike Q

@doppelgreener Historically, most ttrpgs evolved from tabletop wargames, so it makes sense that they have such a focus on combat.

doppelgreener

I also find games like bubblegumshoe appealling because of the mechanics they use to manage socialisation and interpersonal relationships.

@MikeQ Completely agreed

NautArch

@doppelgreener I read that as appalling at first and was very surprised :)

doppelgreener

Nope, appealing haha

It's something I care about and I want mechanical systems to help me manage it because it's important and complex

Mike Q

And it raises two potential limitations or weak points:
1. Since combat is where tactics and choice is most relevant, this means that most conflicts are most meaningfully resolved by combat. That's why so many adventures involve NPCs giving fetch quests that involve killing enemies, even if it seems like a nonsequitur.
2. Conversely, if you have a major conflict that is resolved by a noncombat encounter, then it's ultimately resolved by chance, which could have weird implications if the intent is a story/intrigue heavy game.

doppelgreener

5:39 PM

An RPG I'm helping playtest has a large amount of mechanisms for managing the sociopolitical landscape of the gameplay and it's a blast.

@MikeQ Is that speaking universally or within the scope of wargame-derived games like D&D? Completely agree in the latter case, disagree in the former.

NautArch

On a very unrelated note, I'm doing an AMA on facebook for my business in about 5.5 hours ;)

Mike Q

@doppelgreener Speaking within the scope of ttrpgs that I've played, many of which derive from D&D or other wargames

doppelgreener

Ok. Combat is where tactics and choice are most relevant when combat is where the system puts the majority of tactical and choice mechanics. It's not a coincidence that 90% of the rules and 90% of your characters sheet are about combat.

Mike Q

@doppelgreener Right. I'm not suggesting that my comments are some kind of revelation.

doppelgreener

The reason D&D games see social situations resolved by chance is because they do not give you many meaningful choices or tactics in those situations via their mechanics.

Mike Q

5:43 PM

@doppelgreener Or the social situations are resolved by fetch quests. "I'll help you, but only if you fight the [monsters] who have been [doing bad thing]"

doppelgreener

In a game that puts decent focus on social situations (bubblegumshoe, fate, apocalypse world) you have many meaningful choices and tactical options available to maneuver through the social situation and have considerable influence over how it resolves regardless of luck.

Mike Q

@doppelgreener Ah. So that answers my original question of whether such systems do it well. Thank you.

doppelgreener

@MikeQ oh, which one was that? I must have missed it and could give other info as well.

Mike Q

@doppelgreener I asked earlier here in the chat.

doppelgreener

Oh, cool! Right. Probably SCUP (a fairly new pbta game about political intrigue) as well.

I'm sure I know others but they're not coming to mind.

There's a bunch of minimalistic games which weight social situations equally with basically any other, but don't have complex tactical or resolution mechanics, but the result is you're still fully empowered to maneuver and influence social situations as much as any other. Like lasers and feelings for example, or roll for shoes.

In fact such games wind up primarily social or adventure because there's no compelling reason for violence.

Mike Q

5:50 PM

@doppelgreener That sounds like fun, actually

From my experience, I haven't seen it implemented very well. Pathfinder has Ultimate Intrigue, but it's clunky and any social situation is still most efficiently ~~resolved~~ trivialized by magic. WoD has the building blocks with its separate mental and social skills, but the modules mainly have content for fighting monsters.

doppelgreener

Contrast D&D where the game feedback loop is centered around violence — you cannot progress much without it unless you heavily fiat things (XP for quests, or level up at regular intervals regardless of XP) and most mechanics sit unused when you're not engaging in violence (which makes you feel like you're doing something wrong and you feel compelled to use your sword because you invested in it and feats for it etc)

Golden sky stories is one of the go-to examples of purely social games.

You play cute supernatural creatures who come across people in need and help them out.

Do: Pilgrims of the Flying Temple is about playing some kids who try to sort out situations and make trouble for themselves and others the way when they mess up.

Mike Q

apparently Monsterhearts has some tactics for social conflict, although I don't know how well I would endure the game's premise

doppelgreener

Yes! Very.

It can be confronting because it's essentially about exploring the confusion of our teenage years and man of those weren't confronting I don't know what is.

Maximillian

6:30 PM

Now you make me want to herd players into a game about Orcs dealing with cultural and ethical issues among their own kind to make players feeling bad about slashing through them like canon fodder in other games.

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