TRPG General Chat

The Masked Rebel

16:26

o/

Pixie

Ooh, I should look into the Fate versions. I'm not interested in the complex Pokemon ttrpgs I've seen, but I've been thinking about how to handle monster buddies in Fate for a while.

doppelgreener

@Pixie o////!!!

Pixie

Also, a question to leave before I must go: low level D&Dish monsters that aren't goblins, kobolds, skeletons, or bugbears. Stats aren't a huge deal as I'll likely have to tweak than anyway, but I'm looking for monsters that are interesting/cool yet don't exude "I will eat you alive, level 1 player" (now that my party has enthusiastically accepted the possibility that they might need to retreat occasionally).

The Masked Rebel

@Pixie yo

Pixie

Hey, and bye. :,v

doppelgreener

16:33

Hi bye. :D

NautArch

@Pixie that is a Broad grenade to drop before leaving :)

Mike Q

@Pixie Short answer: Look at stats of low-level monsters, then reflavor them however you want

Rubiksmoose

@NautArch VTC

The Masked Rebel

Does anyone want to play a quick game of D&D in the TableTop gaming room

Mike Q

@Pixie My go-to beginner baddie is clockwork robots, and I think the Skeleton and Zombie stat block can achieve that

NautArch

16:36

@MikeQ @Pixie You also need to decide if you want lots of low CR or single/fewer higher CR. I had a CR 1/2 creature (Skulk) wreck havoc on a party of 3 Level 1 PCs.

@TheMaskedRebel how quick? I'm doing some work and leaving in about an hour but could hop in.

The Masked Rebel

@NautArch 30 minuets

doppelgreener

@Pixie Oozes. Dire elk, which would be a bit scary because it's dire but a bit less scary because it's an elk; it's not a dire wolf at least. Boggles. Flumphs (mixed bag: definitely D&Dish, definitely interesting, absolutely not cool).

Hey, CR1 = appropriate for a team of 4-5 level 1 adventurers right?

Sdjz

@Pixie Mephits (small elementals), Blights (corrupted plants)

or a link only answer look at this list

doppelgreener

@Sdjz I was just about to link that XD

NautArch

@Sdjz Funnily enough, the next combat after the Skulk involved smoke mephits :)

Carcer

16:43

that gods question is a bit awkward

Sdjz

@Pixie Oh also Pixies obviously :)

doppelgreener

@Secespitus hmm.... alternate spin: "You might think there's a lot of World of Darkness games but that's just peanuts to the RPG landscape."

Secespitus

@doppelgreener "You might think there are lots of editions of Dungeons and Dragons [...]"

doppelgreener

But the number of D&D editions is peanuts compared to the number of World of Darkness games :)

Secespitus

But Dungeons and Dragons is (as far as I can tell) often the starting point for many people into the world of RPGs.

But I guess you are right. Maybe WoD would be a better example.

In any case, it's fascinating how many RPGs are out there and how vastly different they can be.

Mike Q

16:53

Speaking of which, do yall know of systems that have good implementations of tactical social mechanics?

Most systems I know of have tactical mechanics for combat (difficulty to hit (AC), progress (HP), types of ways to make progress (damage types), conditions, etc.) but other aspects of roleplay are grossly simplified (roll to pick the lock, roll to convince the guard, etc.)

I have yet to see a system that reflects stuff like social pressure, or progress of convincing someone, or mechanics of logos/ethos/pathos

Carcer

well, strictly

D&D

for progress in convincing someone perhaps

doppelgreener

@Secespitus We've only just started scratching the surface, too. The overwhelming majority of them are still fundamentally centered around violent physical conflict or prominently feature it. Imagine if the only movies we had were action movies, and someone saying "but what if it wasn't an action movie?" was a relatively novel idea.

Mike Q

D&D doesn't really handle social conflicts in a complex way. There are different social skills, but fundamentally it boils down to "Did you roll high enough on the d20"

Carcer

at least according to my recollection of 3e you don't make social rolls to make someone do a specific thing, the mechanics as written state that they influence the target's attitude to you

Pixie

Poking my head back in to say the game I'm playing doesn't have CR and a lot of difficulty will be down to things I decide. I'm just looking for flavor-wise suggestions of things a party with a couple of 3.5 vets won't look at and think "way too much" because of baggage.

Carcer

16:56

and there is a system, of attitudes, which states how helpful or antagonistic someone is to you

NautArch

@Carcer ALthough it's more equivalent that all social encounters are grappling :) It's always who rolls the highest modifier of opposing skill checks (if you run it like that to begin with)

Sdjz

@MikeQ A song of ice and fire rpg does have some "social fighting" encounter mechanic things

doppelgreener

@Pixie The list linked though is one that has all the little low-level D&D monsters, so there'll be a bunch of D&D-ish ones in there

Carcer

you don't roll to convince the guard to let you by, you roll to make the guard like you/want to help you, which might or might not translate to "let you in", but could also mean something entirely different if he thinks there's a better option, etc.

Mike Q

@Carcer Again, those are mostly up to the GM, and they mainly just affect the social skill DC

Secespitus

16:57

@doppelgreener Personally I think Golden Sky Stories is a great don't-kill-everything-you-come-across RPG, which is relatively rare (though I haven't played it... yet)

Carcer

no

the NPC's attitude describes how far it is willing to go to help you

you make checks to change their attitude

doppelgreener

@Secespitus Absolutely. Also Bubblegumshoe as teenagers resolving mysteries.

Carcer

that's the system as it's written

people often don't play it that way, I agree, but the system is there to make it more nuanced than just "oh, you got a 15? He lets you do what you want"

Secespitus

@doppelgreener For a comedy approach I think Cats of Catthulhu is also great. It does have eldritch abominations, but it also has lots of cats! And less "I am hitting till it's dead" and more "I am trying to charm that two-foot to follow me so the others can go on and solve the mystery".

There are a few good games that don't rely on hitting stuff.

Mike Q

@Carcer Right, there is the limitation that social goals are expected to be reasonable in that way. Like it's possible to convince the guard to let you pass, but unlikely to convince them to give you their property and life savings.

But still, the social task itself is mechanically simple compared to the massive complexity of combat

Secespitus

17:03

@doppelgreener I am also looking forward to see how the Journey Away Kickstarter will play out.

Pixie

Thanks for the link, I haven't used Beyond much but that's super handy! (In and out because of work.)

Sdjz

@MikeQ If you're interested you can check the SoIF intrigue system here (starting on page 17)

Mike Q

@NautArch Yes, grappling would be a good analogue of what I'm asking about. A system where the social encounters have mechanics for having the upper hand, putting pressure on different characters, and so on.

Carcer

okay, sure

I didn't mean to argue it's a very deep system at all - it's obviously quite shallow and simple still

but it should get a little credit for being slightly more complex than most people think it is

NautArch

@MikeQ A lot of RP encounters can be done through opposing checks.

Mike Q

17:10

Right, there are multiple social skills, which means players have roleplay choice and can use different social skills depending on the goal of the social encounter

Ultimately though, the success or failure is often determined by a single player's skill check, and the permissiveness of the GM

NautArch

@MikeQ Right, but that also generally makes sense for social. You don't have multiple people interacting against a single (like in combat.) ANd if you do, you could grant advantage (or disadvantage) depedning on how they're interacting together.

Carcer

there's kind of an issue that as social animals we (usually) naturally grasp those kinds of dynamics and people who care that much about the social/political aspect of RPGs generally just actually roleplay it rather than using a mechanical system

your common person has conversations and arguments etc. all the time

NautArch

^is this new?

Carcer

combat is so formalised because that's difficult to act out in a reasonable way.

Mike Q

Well, what if combat was simplified so that combat options were simplified to individual skills, and whether or not the party succeeds is determined by flat DCs. That's sort of how the system treats social encounters.

Secespitus

17:14

@NautArch It's the new style for favourite and ignored tags that seems to have been rolled out to the smaller sites just now.

It's been on MSE and SO for a little while.

NautArch

@Secespitus meh. Kind of takes up quite a bit of screen real estate.

Secespitus

@NautArch Yeah, that was one of the main criticisms, but apparently they still thinks this is a good way to promote favourite/ignored tags. If I remember the discussions correctly it's mostly because very few people actually use these options.

NautArch

@Secespitus Yeah, always make sense to heavily promote a tool that few people actually use. Good UI call. :/

Be interesting to see if it increase usage of that feature.

Secespitus

@NautArch The idea is probably "People are not aware of it. Let's make them aware!" Not sure what they hope to achieve with this, but well, there is a lot going on with the redesign projects, so let's see what else comes next...

Mike Q

Also, regarding social skills being assumed because we use them in everyday life - Many people overestimate their communication skills and are actually terrible at persuading others. For those who are persuasive, it's often because they use strategies, like presenting logical arguments, manipulating emotions, or applying peer pressure.

Secespitus

17:25

@NautArch Here is the MSE announcement if you are interested

NautArch

@MikeQ I dunno, there's the DC methodology. But there's also the opposing skills methodology.

Mike Q

@NautArch And that is usually sufficient in most systems. But again, it's not very tactical other than "roll high enough".

NautArch

@MikeQ Isn't that the same as combat, though?

Mike Q

@NautArch It would be, if combat lasted one turn and didn't have things like HP, conditions, damage types, etc.

NautArch

Or no because there are no 'stages' in RP that combat has (functionally with HP)

Rubiksmoose

17:29

@NautArch Technically RP does have a bit of that since an NPC can have Pos/Neg/Neutural disposition towards you and you can use CHA to change this.

NautArch

@Rubiksmoose I should definitely look at those more. DMG?

doppelgreener

@MikeQ Right, socialising is a skill we can learn and master and pick up tactics and strategies and so on for.

Some of the things I can do socially are because I received specialised training for consulting work.

Rubiksmoose

@NautArch You know, I'm not actually sure where this is written.

doppelgreener

But also as violent animals we intuitively grasp how violence works .... but we still have rules for combat

Rubiksmoose

@NautArch I know it is often written into specific modules talking about NPC dispositions, but not sure where, if anywhere, the general rules are written.

doppelgreener

17:35

@Carcer I care about that and I specifically used a system that mechanised it because I didn't just want to freeform it. I chose fate because it lends equal mechanical weight to social situations.

Mike Q

@doppelgreener Historically, most ttrpgs evolved from tabletop wargames, so it makes sense that they have such a focus on combat.

doppelgreener

I also find games like bubblegumshoe appealling because of the mechanics they use to manage socialisation and interpersonal relationships.

@MikeQ Completely agreed

NautArch

@doppelgreener I read that as appalling at first and was very surprised :)

doppelgreener

Nope, appealing haha

It's something I care about and I want mechanical systems to help me manage it because it's important and complex

Mike Q

And it raises two potential limitations or weak points:
1. Since combat is where tactics and choice is most relevant, this means that most conflicts are most meaningfully resolved by combat. That's why so many adventures involve NPCs giving fetch quests that involve killing enemies, even if it seems like a nonsequitur.
2. Conversely, if you have a major conflict that is resolved by a noncombat encounter, then it's ultimately resolved by chance, which could have weird implications if the intent is a story/intrigue heavy game.

doppelgreener

17:39

An RPG I'm helping playtest has a large amount of mechanisms for managing the sociopolitical landscape of the gameplay and it's a blast.

@MikeQ Is that speaking universally or within the scope of wargame-derived games like D&D? Completely agree in the latter case, disagree in the former.

NautArch

On a very unrelated note, I'm doing an AMA on facebook for my business in about 5.5 hours ;)

Mike Q

@doppelgreener Speaking within the scope of ttrpgs that I've played, many of which derive from D&D or other wargames

doppelgreener

Ok. Combat is where tactics and choice are most relevant when combat is where the system puts the majority of tactical and choice mechanics. It's not a coincidence that 90% of the rules and 90% of your characters sheet are about combat.

Mike Q

@doppelgreener Right. I'm not suggesting that my comments are some kind of revelation.

doppelgreener

The reason D&D games see social situations resolved by chance is because they do not give you many meaningful choices or tactics in those situations via their mechanics.

Mike Q

17:43

@doppelgreener Or the social situations are resolved by fetch quests. "I'll help you, but only if you fight the [monsters] who have been [doing bad thing]"

doppelgreener

In a game that puts decent focus on social situations (bubblegumshoe, fate, apocalypse world) you have many meaningful choices and tactical options available to maneuver through the social situation and have considerable influence over how it resolves regardless of luck.

Mike Q

@doppelgreener Ah. So that answers my original question of whether such systems do it well. Thank you.

doppelgreener

@MikeQ oh, which one was that? I must have missed it and could give other info as well.

Mike Q

@doppelgreener I asked earlier here in the chat.

doppelgreener

Oh, cool! Right. Probably SCUP (a fairly new pbta game about political intrigue) as well.

I'm sure I know others but they're not coming to mind.

There's a bunch of minimalistic games which weight social situations equally with basically any other, but don't have complex tactical or resolution mechanics, but the result is you're still fully empowered to maneuver and influence social situations as much as any other. Like lasers and feelings for example, or roll for shoes.

In fact such games wind up primarily social or adventure because there's no compelling reason for violence.

Mike Q

17:50

@doppelgreener That sounds like fun, actually

From my experience, I haven't seen it implemented very well. Pathfinder has Ultimate Intrigue, but it's clunky and any social situation is still most efficiently ~~resolved~~ trivialized by magic. WoD has the building blocks with its separate mental and social skills, but the modules mainly have content for fighting monsters.

doppelgreener

Contrast D&D where the game feedback loop is centered around violence — you cannot progress much without it unless you heavily fiat things (XP for quests, or level up at regular intervals regardless of XP) and most mechanics sit unused when you're not engaging in violence (which makes you feel like you're doing something wrong and you feel compelled to use your sword because you invested in it and feats for it etc)

Golden sky stories is one of the go-to examples of purely social games.

You play cute supernatural creatures who come across people in need and help them out.

Do: Pilgrims of the Flying Temple is about playing some kids who try to sort out situations and make trouble for themselves and others the way when they mess up.

Mike Q

apparently Monsterhearts has some tactics for social conflict, although I don't know how well I would endure the game's premise

doppelgreener

Yes! Very.

It can be confronting because it's essentially about exploring the confusion of our teenage years and man of those weren't confronting I don't know what is.

Maximillian

18:30

Now you make me want to herd players into a game about Orcs dealing with cultural and ethical issues among their own kind to make players feeling bad about slashing through them like canon fodder in other games.

Luke Sommers

Sup dudes

Helwar

Hullo!

Luke Sommers

@doppelgreener One time, our DM just had us level up for certain achievements, which worked.

Rubiksmoose

@doppelgreener Yes! (and I know I keep banging this drum) but this Masks is so great about this as well. I has social mechanics such that it encourages social activities, adjudicates their results, and is built that the results usually end up pushing the narrative forward. It is quite wonderful.

Pixie

18:45

@NautArch Heh, this is why I am not fond of CR even if I'm playing D&D proper. It can be an okay yardstick for where to start looking, but there are many things it can't account for, and it kind of gives off the vibe of objective levels of difficulty because it's numerical, but in reality two encounters of the same CR can be hugely different in difficulty.

Mike Q

@Pixie Generally I've found that CR can be a rough indicator of minimum difficulty, i.e. the potential of being "too hard", but doesn't necessarily indicate whether a challenge will be "appropriate" or not

doppelgreener

@LukeSommers That does sound viable.

Luke Sommers

@doppelgreener Just an idea, but I thought it might fit your situation.

Pixie

Yeah, that's why I say an okay yardstick. Not directly relevant to M20 anyway, but it will help in looking at monsters to steal and tweak. It's just not really an issue of "one high or many low CR" for me, so that's why I emphasize flavor here. Aside from that, I'm designing encounter tables, not specific encounters right now, so I need a broad variety.

Luke Sommers

I'm changing the Hemomancer to be Path of the Hemomancer, like @MikeQ suggested

Rubiksmoose

18:55

Certainly is better than the Bath of the Hemomancer [shudder].

Luke Sommers

Heh

Mike Q

Generally speaking, when it comes to making homebrew options for class-based systems, it's easier to modify an existing class rather than start from class and attempt to balance it with the rest of the system. Most homebrew classes I've seen are either badly balanced, or similar enough to an existing class that it may as well be an archetype, magic item, or set of feats. Fortunately for homebrewers, each class in D&D 5e has archetypes that are mechanically interchangeable.

Luke Sommers

But I also think the Hennamancer thing (which was a joke) could actually be interesting. It reminds me of my friend's Goliath Wizard who used tattoos as his spell book

@MikeQ Yeah, makes sense

Mike Q

start from scratch*, oops, bad typo there

nitsua60

@Tiggerous I feel like the "how do I gauge" part is... superfluous, maybe? Contrast that with simply asking "Is [this thing from UA] under- or over-powered compared to published [comparable things]?" A few people will answer, lots of people will vote, you'll see scores, and that will tell you what "the community" thinks about the over/under poweredness.

Luke Sommers

19:01

It looks like all the archetypes for Barbarian change the Rage slightly, how should I do that with Hemomancer? I'm not going to have actual spells, but instead spell-like abilities like @kviiri suggested

nitsua60

@NautArch 9 players, I either co- or assistant GM. And I've actually rather enjoyed some large groups in that manner. One of the best combats I ever (co-)ran was with about twelve players and 2 gms.

Maximillian

No homebrew survives first encounter with the crafty player.

KorvinStarmast

@Pixie Bandits and wolves and skeletons

Luke Sommers

Perhaps like the Blood Bond, but instead, while raging, if someone makes an attack against the person you are bonded with, you can charge up to your max speed to take the damage instead?

Mike Q

@LukeSommers However you do it, the path should grant features at levels 3, 6, 10, and 14

Luke Sommers

19:07

@MikeQ That's why I'm consulting the other paths

Mike Q

The 3rd level feature should be a big defining step that impacts how the class is played

nitsua60

@Pixie animated furniture.

Luke Sommers

Would what I said count?

Rather than being alone, you protect without regard to yourself?

Mike Q

Maybe? By comparison, EK's 3rd level feature is spellcasting, so maybe the barb's 3rd level feature could be limited spellcasting that they can also perform during a rage and counts as one of the actions they can perform in a rage.

Luke Sommers

You can't cast while raging, as far as I know

Mike Q

19:09

Well, maybe hemomancer can, because it specifically says so?

Luke Sommers

Perhaps, Ancestral Guardian casts at 10th level

Mike Q

Or alternatively, you give it spell-like features instead, kind of like warlock. So now it's not just the "barbarian eldritch knight", but something more unique

Luke Sommers

That works. Here's what @kviiri said: "I'd probably start with Blood Bond at L1 as an optional pain-sharing ability with a single ally, changeable during Short Rest or Long Rest. Something like "when either you or your bonded ally takes damage, you can, at their permission, suffer half of the damage in their stead" (I considered "up to half", but it'd be more fiddly)"

Mike Q

I have yet to write any homebrew content that introduces anything fundamentally new - so far I've done the lazy approach and just come up with archetypes that mimic other classes (because multiclassing is discouraged). So I'm not the authority here on what one should do.

Luke Sommers

That was when I was making a full class, but we could change it to being for the subclass

Mike Q

19:14

You'd have to consider how "suffer half of the damage" interacts with the barbarian's damage resistance

Luke Sommers

Suffer half the damage, ignoring resistance.

nitsua60

@Pixie stat up a whole bunch of " -lettes," the low-cr relatives of bulettes. A whole taxonomy of burrowers =)

@Pixie ditto lycanthropes. Were(house)cat, weredogs, werepig, werechicken... like Cycle of the Werewolf meets Pet Sematary.

Luke Sommers

@MikeQ Perhaps it does Unattributable damage? That would go around the damage resistance.

Maximillian

Lycanthropelettes

Mike Q

@LukeSommers But not the mighty Werehouse, which dwarfs even the dreaded Gazebo by comparison

Maximillian

19:20

The Werehouse is adjacent to the Wallmart

nitsua60

@MikeQ the plural isn't "dwarves"?

=)

Maximillian

Dwarvii!

Luke Sommers

During a short or long rest, you choose a single ally. While raging, when that ally takes damage and is within 30 ft., you can use your reaction to take half of that damage, ignoring any resistance you may have. The ally you are bonded with also takes half damage.

That work?

KorvinStarmast

@LukeSommers that's the cleric spell warding bond, 2d level

nitsua60

@LukeSommers That seems to indicate the ally takes (all) the damage, then you take half and they take half. I'd compare with the wording of warding bond.

(Oh, beat me to it.)

Luke Sommers

19:24

Warding bond also adds more, but I'll look at the wording.

Warding bond also makes you both take full damage...

nitsua60

No, because of the resistance.

In any case, I like cribbing wording wherever I can, because then it's wording that players/gms are familiar with.

Luke Sommers

How would you word it then?

nitsua60

Which brings up the question: how do you intend it to interact with resistance?

Luke Sommers

I planned to have it ignore resistance

nitsua60

@LukeSommers I don't know what you intend--I haven't been following the conversation. I just saw something that looked ambiguous to my eye and shouted out.

Luke Sommers

19:28

Then again, I worded it strangely.

nitsua60

So if one of the two people had resistance already, your intent is that they end up only taking 1/4 damage? (Actually, floor(0.5*floor(0.5*damage)))

Luke Sommers

Resistance doesn't stack as far as I know

Mike Q

Taking damage that bypasses the barbarian's resistance is going to really hurt it as a spellcaster

Luke Sommers

Spell-like abilities rather than spells now

"During a short or long rest, you choose a single ally. While you are raging, that ally has resistance to all damage. However, whenever that ally takes damage, you take the same amount. Resistance does not stack."

Mike Q

Why during a short or long rest? Why not choose when you begin the rage?

Luke Sommers

19:33

You have multiple rages per day

KorvinStarmast

Doesn't Ancestral Guardian already have a way to protect an ally?

Luke Sommers

It can impose disadvantage

KorvinStarmast

I don't have XGtE with me, but I seem to recall AG can defend. As to Disad ... not getting hit is a fantastic damage reduction method.

Luke Sommers

At 3rd level, while you're raging, the first creature you hit with an attack on your turn becomes the target of spiritual warriors, which hinder its attacks. Until the start of your next turn, that target has disadvantage on any attack roll that isn't against you, and when the target hits a creature other than you with an attack, that creature has resistance to the damage dealt by the attack. The effect on the target ends early if your rage ends.

Mine is a bit different

KorvinStarmast

Keep working on it, I am not sure what you are trying to achieve. (It's in the question, right? )

Luke Sommers

19:37

Similar to Warding Bond, but no AC bonus or saving throw bonus

Smaller range as well

Eh, I guess Ancestral Guardian is close enough this is unnecessary

Mike Q

20:09

@LukeSommers I agree with Korvin. Keep working on it. I've made a lot of homebrew archetypes. In general, I suggest: Start with a theme, then look at the types of abilities and powers gained at the different levels, then come up with content that is on par with those abilities and fits the theme of what you're trying to make. Then iterate through a bunch of revisions, adjusting and possibly scrapping previous ideas, until you're satisfied with something that seems playable.

Mike Q

20:24

@BESW [wave of waviness]

Luke Sommers

I have a question about this: At 1st level, you learn one necromancy cantrip of your choice from any spell list. When you cast a necromancy cantrip that normally targets only one creature, the spell can instead target two creatures within range and within 5 feet of each other.

What would your spellcasting modifier be for it?

Mike Q

What's it from?

Sir Cinnamon

Cleric right?

Luke Sommers

Death Domain for Cleric, DMG

Sir Cinnamon

So it would be your cleric casting mod IMO

Luke Sommers

20:27

Alright, even if the cantrip you choose isn't a cleric one?

Mike Q

If it comes from a Cleric class feature, then I'm pretty sure that means you use the Cleric spellcasting modifier, even if it's not typically a Cleric spell. By comparison, that's how Lore bards work when they cast non-bard spells as a bard.

Luke Sommers

Alright, wanted to make sure.

Also, there's only 3 necromancy cantrips, that saddens me

Mike Q

@LukeSommers Make some homebrew necromancy cantrips

BESW

@MikeQ [wave of breezing past while helping his dad get ready for the bus]

Luke Sommers

@MikeQ Any suggestions?

Mike Q

20:31

Hmm... Is there anything that acts like the opposite to Guidance, maybe some kinda minor curse cantrip?

Luke Sommers

Not as far as I know, let me check. Nope, there aren't any.

Pixie

@KorvinStarmast Heh, there will be some of those, but half my group is pretty seasoned and I know I personally get bored of too many of the same old low level monsters. But one player has only been in one game of 5e and another has never played anything like this before, so I didn't want to start at too high a level and overwhelm them.

@nitsua60 We have a halforc who is a wereduck in the party.

Maximillian

ominous quacking

Luke Sommers

So, the Death Domain is technically for Evil clerics...

Could I have a non-evil aligned Death Cleric?

BESW

@LukeSommers Wee Jas and the Raven Queen think so.

Mike Q

20:46

Unsure, but you could certainly have a non-antagonistic Death Cleric, as long as the GM and other players are cool with it

Luke Sommers

Clerics can be one step away on each alignment axis, right? Or is that Pathfinder?

Mike Q

Sounds like PF. I'm not sure if 5e actually has alignment restrictions for clerics

Luke Sommers

Did some reading, it doesn't.

It's not like I want to be a LG cleric with a CE god, I just prefer not to be evil since that could cause some problems

There's a LN god of death

Rubiksmoose

@LukeSommers Death domain is in the DMG right? As long as your DM agrees to it it is fine.

Mike Q

Is it actually problematic in 5e to be a cleric of an evil god in a non-evil party?

Rubiksmoose

20:52

@MikeQ Depends on the party and adventure I would say. As well as how you play it. It doesn't have to be certainly.

Luke Sommers

@MikeQ I don't believe so, but some people might think it's "wrong".

BESW

Historically D&D's had a handful of non-evil gods with Death in their portfolio; their attitude is usually more focused on "respect death by making sure the dead stay dead when they're supposed to, reviving them when they died in an untimely fashion, and punishing those who bring death in an untimely way."

Mike Q

Hey, a LG paladin has just as much potential for intra-party antagonism as a CE necromancer

Luke Sommers

Kelemvor, god of the dead - LN - Death

BESW

The Raven Queen stole the Death portfolio from an Evil god of the underworld who tortured souls, and revised the underworld to be a place of passage to something better.

Wee Jas is just weird, nobody can agree on what she's got going on; her portfolio shifts between settings and editions more than most, but usually she's Death, Law, Magic, and Love/Vanity, and her alignment swings between Lawful Evil and Lawful Neutral.

Luke Sommers

20:56

Kinda reminds me of my old PF Inquisitor, who's job was to make sure things didn't break the laws of life and death (Re-killed undead)

BESW

I made her a goddess of destiny: Some things in life are inevitable, and if you accept that she's there to celebrate with you in the good and support you during the bad. But if you try to buck the inevitable, she's there to shove you back on the foretold path.

Luke Sommers

Nice

BESW

Had a campaign where her temple was integrated into the city's law enforcement.

Mike Q

@LukeSommers Also I am a bit biased here. On multiple occasions I've built a "gray cleric" concept who does both healing and necromancying, but the primary obstacle has been overcoming the preconceptions of the other players

Yuuki

I feel like "laws of life and death" would be different in a world where people can come back from death. I think that maybe the fantasy trope of "undeath is unnatural" is a part of a worldview born of a reality where dead things absolutely stay dead.

Mike Q

20:58

@Yuuki That's a very good point

BESW

@Yuuki Yeah, that'd be an interesting thing to explore. Like, Obsidian and Blood has a great death clergy but it's VERY much focused on the sanctity of death and the inevitability of the afterlife.

Luke Sommers

@MikeQ That's what I was thinking, the preconceptions. "They'll turn against us!" No? I'm just here to deal with life and death?

Mike Q

@LukeSommers It was especially annoying because the other PCs were generic amoral murderhobos. Then I summon one measly skeleton to help us in battle, and suddenly everyone has an ivory tower.

BESW

That's sort of why I went in the "destiny" direction with Wee Jas; it lets me handwave justifications for resurrection OR lack thereof depending on what the game needs at the time.

Yuuki

"Blue and Orange Morality" is a very interesting trope to me and it's interesting to think about how many of our fantasy tropes are derived from our very un-fantastical reality.

Mike Q

21:00

@Yuuki Is that thinking with portals?

Luke Sommers

tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/BlueAndOrangeMorality

@MikeQ I've always wanted to make a Necromancer who just uses them to farm, that's actually where I was going with my schizophrenic wizard.

Yuuki

IIRC, that's a thing in one setting. Eberron?

There's a nation that uses a lot of necromancy because their population is very low or something like that.

Undead are used in everything from agriculture to (obviously) military.

Luke Sommers

@Yuuki Oh, no clue. I was just talking with some friends one day about random stuff and that came out.

Yuuki

And citizens volunteer themselves to be raised from the dead to serve in the military.

Maximillian

Necromancy, because your service contract was for life plus ten years service.

Luke Sommers

21:04

@Yuuki It would be interesting if we combined that with norse mythology, the Einherji

Yuuki

Ah, found it.

Mike Q

@Maximillian It's not undeath, it's re-life

Yuuki

Unfortunately, it seems the nation also smacks of a bit of totalitarianism.

BESW

@LukeSommers Death Gate Cycle has a similar society, but in that world necromancy is Serious Business and they pay the price for trying to cheat death to increase their labor pool.

Yuuki

Karrnath from Eberron is the nation I was talking about.

Luke Sommers

21:05

@BESW Ah.

What do you guy's think the race with the most focus on honor is? Especially dying with honor in battle? I'm thinking Half-Orcs.

BESW

(For every dead raised, another will die untimely. This... hastened their population problems and also kinda wrecked a few nearby societies as well.)

@LukeSommers In 4e, a lot of half-orcs worship Kord as their creator, which means they're less about dying honorably and more about living awesomely.

Luke Sommers

@BESW Hm. Then what do you think? I'm mainly focusing on 5e.

Yuuki

@LukeSommers Well, what is honor?

BESW

Dec 28 '12 at 6:51, by BESW

My players are convinced that Kord is the God of Things That Are Awesome, and when his most accomplished followers finally pass into the next life (probably due to an act which started with the phrase "Hold my tankard and watch this") he greets them with a chestbump.

Dec 28 '12 at 6:52, by BESW

And then they sit down to watch slo-mo replays of the soul's most awesome moments in life.

Luke Sommers

I'm thinking about the Norse idea of Honor in battle.

BESW

21:08

Yeah, "honor" is a term that covers a lot of ground. I think it's useful to, at the very least, make the distinction between internal and external honor.

Luke Sommers

@BESW I'm pretty sure that was in Magnus Chase

BESW

Klingon society is obsessed with external honor: the respect and position that others give you because your actions align with societal values. Worf, raised outside that society and thus unable to participate in it, substituted internal honor: the respect that you have for yourself because your actions align with your own values.

Mike Q

@LukeSommers Klingons, then Starks, then dwarves, then Space Marines, then half-orcs

Yuuki

So I heard that they added changelings to 5e and one of the interesting lore tidbits they added was that changelings adopt multiple physical appearances as "personas" that they use to help express emotions and emote.

BESW

(It's one of the cooler character arcs through the franchise, watching Worf come to terms with that.)

Yuuki

21:11

And if that's true, that's really interesting.

Luke Sommers

Yuuki It's true.

Yuuki

That's really interesting.

Luke Sommers

dnd.wizards.com/articles/unearthed-arcana/races-eberron

Maximillian

Worf took time to get used to being a dad.

Luke Sommers

In there

@Maximillian Yeah, I remember bits of that. He and his son in the Holodeck for the Wild West was great.

Helwar

21:17

Sorry to interrupt but, is any of you versed in Mutants & Masterminds 3e and has time to answer silly questions that might or might not be already answered somewhere in internet but I can't find?

If not I'll keep struggling :P

Mike Q

@Helwar yo puedo maybe

Yuuki

Going back to blue and orange morality, one thing that's also interested me is the common idea of a shapeshifter's "true form". Like the idea that a shapeshifter reverts to some "natural" appearance on death because shapeshifting is essentially a mask on top of their real self comes from a reality where people can't shapeshift.

Helwar

wo!

@MikeQ do you care to go to another room to not bother people here?

Miniman

@Pixie For a long time, I've wanted an excuse to use the evil scarecrow monsters.

Mike Q

@Helwar I bother people here all the time, so I think here is ok, hopefully

Helwar

21:19

^^

KorvinStarmast

@LukeSommers Check XGTE for Toll the Dead. Nice necromancy cantrip

Sir Cinnamon

@KorvinStarmast Thats one of the 3 - I think in the PHB there is a single necro cantrip

Helwar

I offered to DM a few games of M&M this summer while one of my players is away and we can't keep playing our usual D&D game.

Mike Q

@Helwar We could also jump over to the Not a Bar chat room

Helwar

Thing is, I thought I remembered how this game worked, and it's clear I don't

Luke Sommers

21:20

@KorvinStarmast I always use it, it's awesome

@SirCinnamon Chill Touch and Spare the Dying are PHB.

Helwar

@MikeQ I'll jump there if you want

Miniman

@Pixie Also, mephits and magmins are all pretty awesome.

KorvinStarmast

@LukeSommers One of our missions in an early D&D game, 5e, was hired by a mine owner and his workers: another mine was being run by a necromancer who was using zombies and skeletons. (Scabs!) So we cleaned it out, and after we took down the Necromancer, I got a lot of laughs from the fellow players by singing "Look for, the Union Label!" in a rather loud voice.

> Dad was a good union man when he worked in a steel mill in the 40's.

@LukeSommers Goliath seem to be huge regarding honor, and the MM hobgoblins are also big on honor, as I read the published text.

@Yuuki Changellings as written in the UA are too bloated for the current 5e chassis, but I love the conceptual approach in what they do. Feature creep racial abilities. Volo's was bad enough, this UA was particularly full of bloat. (Even though the ideas are neat).

Pixie

21:36

@Miniman Remember what they're called off the top of your head? I'm sure I can find them if not, but that sounds great.

The scarecrows, I mean.

I have a deep love of mephits, but that may mean I won't have an easy time sending them to the slaughter. :P That said, I can always use them as encounters that will allow diplomacy if the PCs so choose.

I've always wanted to do greater familiar to get a mephit in Pathfinder, but alas, my games never lasted long enough... even if they lasted years, lol.

Miniman

@Pixie Scarecrows.

Pixie

Aha.

Miniman

And yeah, I too love mephits, but I can't resist using them - their cone abilities plus their self destruct abilities is so much more interesting than the tactical options (or total lack thereof) of most low level monsters.

Luke Sommers

@KorvinStarmast Got it, thanks.

trogdor

@Miniman wow no extra name at all XD

Miniman

21:47

@trogdor Well, if it's in the Monster Manual, "scarecow monster" doesn't really tell you any more than "scarecrow", right?

trogdor

yeah

but it just seems so,... lazy

or just less cool than some new name

Pixie

On the other hand, I appreciate the straightforwardness sometimes. :v

trogdor

true enough

Pixie

Because they could have named these scarecrow monsters some jumble of letters I will never remember. :v

trogdor

I admit that is an issue

Luke Sommers

21:48

Anyone taken a look at the Warforged?

trogdor

like Bebiliths,... they are demon spider type things but because there are already other demon spiders,... Bebiliths

nitsua60

@LukeSommers Yeah, but you don't say "resistance" in the text. You say the damage is halved. That would stack with "resistance."

Luke Sommers

@nitsua60 Thanks, I'll change it.

nitsua60

I'm trying to say: if you write it as giving resistance, that won't stack with existing sources of resistance. if you write it as "half damage" that will. Either's fine, but I'm not sure which you'd intended.

@LukeSommers np

Pixie

I almost want to pull a Howl's Moving Castle (book, not movie), except the only reason that works in Howl's is because Sophie does away from it, and I do not think my group will run from a scarecrow. Only bigger things. :v (Also, one of my players is the one who recommended the book to me, so it wouldn't be much of a surprise.)

trogdor

21:51

but they would never expect,... the Crowscare!

Pixie

Gasp. The deadliest of crow scarers.

Miniman

You could have a plot twist where, once they kill the evil scarecrow, the even eviller crows it was keeping at bay descend on the party.

trogdor

lol

Pixie

Oh wow, that's great. If it's a situation where they still have plenty of juice after the scarecrow(s), I might well do that.

trogdor

an excellent example of the other shoe dropping

Pixie

21:56

Or some NPC runs out upset because they just killed their fancy scarecrow they paid a wizard a whole lot of money for, and it's really not their fault the scarecrow went rogue and started attacking random travelers. Blame the wizard. Always the wizard.

Luke Sommers

Anyone one the Warforged?

doppelgreener

I for one have one it.

Miniman

I don't stop at one.

Joshua Aslan Smith

22:15

you guys jazzed for gencon?

Helwar

I'll go to bed, thank you guys for your help, as always. You are kinda my support group, either if it's RPG problems, coding problems, or just social problems. It's like an AA support group, but better :P

trogdor

lol

Helwar

:)

well, see ya! And thanks again!

trogdor

(RPG.SE not reccomended for therapy specifically related to recovering from alcoholism)

XD

^read in that really fast moving ad voice

Helwar

@trogdor I don't drink, no problems with that :P

trogdor

22:18

lol

Miniman

@JoshuaAslanSmith What's gencon?

Also, hi! Haven't seen you around lately.

Joshua Aslan Smith

Gen Con is the giant big pen and paper convention in indianna where a lot of publishers trot out their new products and news for pen and paper games

I'm not going, but just excited for stuff releasing either afterward or simultaneously with the convention

@Miniman I stopped playing RPGs because everyone in my play groups got busy or certain systems lost interest.

so there was need to come to the site

trogdor

@JoshuaAslanSmith ah the age old problems

Joshua Aslan Smith

but more so because I wasnt involved in any of the very active games currently (sorta rolled off 5 after the initial release period) there was less for me to answer as well

Miniman

@JoshuaAslanSmith Ah, so this is likely to herald PF 2e, WFRP 4e, and whatever else is coming soon.

Joshua Aslan Smith

22:21

I did get a couple Edge of the Empire questions in when we were playing that

yes the pathfinder playtest is releasing at gen con

which I am morbidly interested in as a a non PF player who didnt like 5es changes and some of the previews for PF 2e had what I would consider sorta gamist design principles and I was like "Is PF 2e gonna be more like 4e than 5e?"

doppelgreener

@Helwar I'm really happy we can be that. :)

Joshua Aslan Smith

its a wild rumor in my own head

doppelgreener

Y'all are an awesome bunch.

Joshua Aslan Smith

specifically the Witcher pen and paper game is releasing at gen con

doppelgreener

Hi Josh!!!!! \o/

Joshua Aslan Smith

22:22

and Im hoping more info about Cyberpunk Red comes out

@doppelgreener HERRO!!!

Miniman

@JoshuaAslanSmith Wow, that's more optimistic than it occurred to me to be.

trogdor

@JoshuaAslanSmith oh man I would love that XD

Joshua Aslan Smith

so yeah I only stop in once every few weeks when I get a notification and then like ebenezer scrooge I go to the reputation page and look at my Interest accruals for old questions and answers getting upvoted

doppelgreener

It's looking like it definitely won't have 4e's class balance, but there are some other signs of having 4e-like features.

Joshua Aslan Smith

@Miniman There was one blog post on their site for it that described overhauling the action economy to grant all players 3 action points a turn

and you spend them as you wish (and can repeat actions)

move is 1 action, basic attack 1 action, cast a spell is probably a 2 part action, draw a weapon 1 action

ect

Luke Sommers

22:26

When you live in Indiana but never go to GenCon

Joshua Aslan Smith

I mean the hotels are crazy

like unless you live within a 1-2 hour drive it seems sane to not go

I feel very lucky that Pax Unplugged picked philly as I can drive in and park or take the regional public trains in like I did last year

Luke Sommers

I'm about 3 hours away

Ben

22:56

@trogdor bit.ly/2mJh0w4

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