Heh, not sure how this one got an up vote.

@KorvinStarmast It's almost Vengeance Paladin attitude if you read through it with a certain lens.

@KorvinStarmast Sounds like the definition of NOT lawful

@SirCinnamon Vengeance Paladins can be lawful. They can be avenging the loss of a war by their kingdom, as an oath source ...

@KorvinStarmast I guess it depends on what law you follow. I guess its just very obviously not Lawful Good

@SirCinnamon Maybe...But they could see it as a necessary act in order to destroy the greater evil.

@NautArch Isn't that the epitome of Chaotic Good though?

compromise your rules to fight for the greatest possible good?

I guess i just really hate the chaotic vs lawful alignments spectrum. It's arbitrary when any set of actions could fall under some set of personal codes

@SirCinnamon Command allowed us to defeat some pirates in our last ToA encounter.

@SirCinnamon alignment is so wonky. But they're not necessarily compromising their rules. They have accepted losses in pursuit of a greater good.

@SirCinnamon not obvious to me. Lawful Good does not mean "non violent" .... see Roy Greenhilt as one example among thousands.

Being Lawful doesn't mean you obey every single law.

@KorvinStarmast It's not the violence that strikes me as not lawful, its "abandon some of his kind to eternal suffering"

@SirCinnamon Hobson's choices happen, but I see your point in re the question that is gonna go bye bye soon enough.

@Yuuki And being chaotic doesnt mean you break every single law. I don't find the distinction useful, ever

@SirCinnamon I prefer the original, pre two axis, approach. See also comment by nitsua60 here

> what team are you playing for in the existential struggle?

Or just let folks do stuff and have the world around them react accordingly.

Gave everyone a lot more room to move and flex. @NautArch That too.

Besides, Paladins don't have to be Lawful Good anymore.

@Yuuki We're discussing a question which is strictly asking if a character who did X is lawful good

In original Traveller, I don't recall there being any alignment. But it's been so long since I've played that ... @Yuuki True, but the question being asked posits that particular alignment.

@SirCinnamon That's not really how I read the question, tbh.

@Yuuki Well i flipped it I suppose, "Would a lawful good character do X"

But its gone now

I read it as "would a lawful good character do X?", I see a small difference between that and "is a character who does X lawful good?". Namely in that the former case, there exists the answer "yes but they're not lawful good anymore".

@Yuuki Does the act change your alignment or do you do the act because your alignment has changed? I would say the latter.

Depends on whether you view alignment as a judgment on your actions/beliefs or a personality trait.

True

@KorvinStarmast With regard to this question, guessing what problem the DM or Players may have isn't a game we should play :)

If we're guessing, then we're Opinion-Based. If we don't know, it's Unclear.

@NautArch If the new DM perceives a problem, and an experienced DM can see that they are heading in an unproductive direction, then as enkryptor and I did, you can challenge the frame of the question and propose a direction to take. I think that's what we both did based on the question as presented.

Speaking of unclear: Do people think this question should be VTCed for that reason? For one, we don't know if this is a PC or monster which changes things. I think at least.

Also the top answer does not seem to answer the question at all.

@KorvinStarmast DM is perceiving a potential problem, but hasn't identified what that problem is. That's how I'm reading it.

Which makes it "Oh, it oculd be this, do this. No, it could be this, do this!"

@NautArch He sees the barbarian looting during combat as a problem, or he'd not have asked how to deal with it.

See the title

But I could see a case for leaving it open with a frame challenge.

He's a new DM, and is asking for expert input on solving a problem (or what he perceives as a problem). I do wish he'd have added some of that stuff in comments ointo the question, though.

heloooooo my friendos! How are you all doing? Has anyone DM'd or played the Rrakkma adventure? (DnD 5th ed, DDIA-MORD)

@NautArch Yeah, that too.

@KorvinStarmast and his lack of responses also suggests Unclear. A lot of questions were asked for clarifications that they never provided.

@NautArch Or suggests satisfied with various answers and is a new user. ;)

@KorvinStarmast Maybe, but then we should still close it. Helpful to them isn't the same as helpful to all. And aren't we aiming for helpful to all?

If a monster has armor, is it considered part of its statistics?

@Rubiksmoose In what sense? Like if it was summoned, and you want to know whether it appears with the armor?

@MikeQ In the context of this question: rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/128109/…

@Rubiksmoose I don't think that question should be closed.

@NautArch Why is that?

It's a weird call and a good question. If the armor doesn't transform, and if it's nonmagical armor, how does it change shape to the weretiger's form?

The rulings should be very different if the weretiger is a monster or if it is a PC though.

Sort of like the werewolf movies (or the hulk) where their clothes get destroyed if they're not nekkid.

You transform into a tiger (large creature) from a medium, that armor gonna bust.

@Rubiksmoose Possibly. I'm not sure that "It depends on the situation" is the same as "This question is unclear"

@MikeQ But the situation is exactly what they are asking about. I can see that being ok. That is indeed why I asked if it should be closed lol.

We already have two answers (one deleted) one only answered as if it was a monster, the other only answered as if it was a PC (and didn't even really answer the question at all).

If answers are confused, that tells me the question needs to be clarified.

@NautArch And I agree that the core questions asked are good.

@NautArch @MikeQ but I think you are both kind of ignoring that both answers to this question failed to actually answer it because they were confused about it. Does that not indicate some sort of unclarity?

@Rubiksmoose I can't see deleted answers, although yes, the non-deleted answer is not particularly helpful

@MikeQ That is fair. It assumed this was a homebrew monster (because it has armor whereas the MM version does not) and said we couldn't provide guidance.

@Rubiksmoose good point, going to retract my reopen. THey need to tell us if this is a PC, otherwise they're homebrewing a monster.

@NautArch Yeah that is the thing. Otherwise I think this is perfectly answerable.

hmm, i can't retract an reopen?

@NautArch Although I wouldn't consider it homebrew perse since the MM does provide guidance for modifying monsters. But that I'm not sure about and is largely semantic.

@NautArch Oh? I guess I've never tried maybe.

@Rubiksmoose I"m not sure that because there are guidelines doesn't mean it's not homebrew.

@NautArch Yeah I'm not sure either.

Depends on your definition I guess. In retrospect I think homebrew is appropriate.

@AVeryLargeBear that sounds familiar. WHich tags? The one we definitely have discussed is 5e.

@AVeryLargeBear I'm not sure if there is a meta question about it in general, but it usually comes up on threads asking for pruning that don't need to be pruned.

@AVeryLargeBear There are a number of meta questions about this topic. Usually each question addresses some specific tags though.

@BESW Love the gnome floating down the river on bagpipes.

@KorvinStarmast @BESW Clever girl!

@Mustachachu Just so you know, I think I (personally) would prefer it if things you post here are of general interest to the group and not just random meme videos. Others might feel differently of course.

@AVeryLargeBear Yeah I think the general feeling is that, if the tag is not an issue that is affecting things negatively there isn't really much of a reason to "fix" the tag.

@AVeryLargeBear You'll see meta questions like "Should we merge the 'bard' and 'bards' tags"?

@NautArch Our old farts game (my Brother is now our DM) has a lot of stuff like that in it; I confess that no small amount of beer tends to be involved. My buddy in Oakland works at a beer distributorship, and we try to get with the mood ..

@Rubiksmoose What about D&D memes

@Mustachachu NBD and no need to feel bad or anything, but I just wanted to let you know in case people would decide that it was detrimental to the chat. And again, it was just my opion here. If other people think it is fine then I'm certainly not going to have an issue with it.

Oh, nvm. KS linked it, like, three messages later. (I gotta get used to this new doubled pace of chat this last week or so.)

@MikeQ I think it is generally a case of what you are posting as well as how often. An off-topic meme or video every once and a while can be fun and interesting. But even relevant stuff like D&D memes if posted multiple times an hour could be seen as annoying by some.

Fair enough. We did have the birds-apparently fad for a while.

apparently

Indeed. Again. My personal preference, please do not take this as law or group consensus.

I'd say (as a chatizen, not Voice Of Mod) that if it's [video] + [comment/question/"thought you might like this because..."] that's vastly preferable to [video] + [nothing].

Vox populi, vox mod

@nitsua60 I demand an explanation on why you think I might like this!

@MikeQ XD

I refer you to the message immediately preceding it, the "reply" indicator in mine, and the title of mine. <-- #VoiceOfMod

=D

@nitsua60 Roll for persuasion. Advantage for being a Mod.

2d20

+19

ooh, 35. Is that good?

I am inclined to sell you my firstborn

(I'm assuming max CHA, expertise, a stone of good luck....)

@dot_Sp0T I've already got a firstborn. Is there a conversion to make your firstborn my fourthborn?

@nitsua60 I'm assuming 3.5/PF, where rolling a total of 35 is considered "pretty good but not fantastic"

Ah, yes: +3.

Can you give your firstborn three ranks in "younger sibling"?

@Secespitus tough beat on that WB election =(

@nitsua60 Only if they multiclass into a Warlock of the undying

@nitsua60 Yeah, it was close, but the community voted. Maybe another time.

That would have to do something with logistics, what skill relates to logistics, plain int?

@Secespitus I think "close" undersells it... I was tempted to run the numbers myself just to see how close it really was. I'd ballpark it at about a tenth of a vote separating you two.

@nitsua60 WB?

Worldbuilding

worldbuilding

ah

Warner Brothers won't have their election until next month. Fudd's the incumbent.

Wery Best stack

According to the numbers (if I read them correctly) there was a net difference of roughly 5 votes.

Hello again

@Secespitus Demand a recount! Were there hanging chads?

In any case, I was glad to see you run and apologize for not registering five (more) socks to vote for you.

@nitsua60 Next time I demand more socks from everyone :D

@LukeSommers howdy howdy

@Secespitus Were you running on the More Socks platform?

@NautArch SockExchange

@Rubiksmoose eeewwwwww

@Rubiksmoose Instead of building a community of experts it's a site built by one expert with a lot of accounts.

@Rubiksmoose SockOverflow ?

@MikeQ I think that makes metaSockOverflow a... garter?

@Secespitus Jeff with a few thousand different accounts.

It's quiet in here. Anyone mind if I brainstorm ideas and panhandle for suggestions?

Go for it.

@MikeQ My thesis will mind ;)

(go ahead!)

The heroes(?) will soon be heading into a city full of spies. While I've set up some buildings with agents in them, the city itself is the "dungeon". I want the players to go around, gathering info and intercepting messages. The PCs will probably find the spies easily, but the goal should be to learn about what the spies know and plan to do.

It should be more than "kick down the door, kill everyone inside, and hope they have a journal that conveniently details their findings and intentions"

Has anyone else seen the new Artificer?

@MikeQ Is everyone in the town a spy?

@LukeSommers Have they updated it?

Yeah, 3 subclasses

Rather than just the 2

@kviiri No, but the town contains undercover spies from three competing factions. So far, only one of the three is an antagonist force relative to the PCs.

Aah, ok.

@LukeSommers Where? I didn't see it in the UA or the Eberron doc.

Alternate Unearthed Arcana

For some reason that got me thinking about an old MS-DOS game, It came from the Desert, where the player's mission is to piece together proof about a giant ant threat so the public officials can do something about it.

@MikeQ I would expect torture from the PCs. It's always the main method of extracting information

The player can earn bits of evidence like plaster casts of an ant's footprint or a severed antenna and take them to the mayor, who will disregard all of it until enough is collected. (so there's no single critical clue)

If the player fails to do that, the mayor's car will be eaten by an ant eventually, unlocking the endgame, but later than by convincing the mayor with evidence - it's harder to fight back at that point.

So I'd maybe go for something similar: have a "checklist" of the ways the players can find new information about their agendas (interrogation, swiped documents, eavesdropping, etc) and every time the players do one, drop them some info, but only reveal the big picture once they've collected enough.

@kviiri The PCs are actually in a situation like that already - They've encountered one of the BBEGs and realized he's a spy, and that is valuable information, but they have no evidence of it. So I think they'll look for evidence that connects to this BBEG they met.

@kviiri There is also a countdown - the third faction is waiting for the other two to tire each other out, and then it plans to strike - but the PCs don't seem to have realized this yet. I've considered having that be among the information available in this town.

Countdowns are nice. Rather than getting stuck, the situation can move

Also, all information should be encoded, somehow. Finding the notes (or things) is one objective, but putting them together and deciphering the true message should be another. The spies have a lot at stake, so they're not to going to send open messages that could be intercepted.

@MikeQ can I suggest you check out theangrygm.com/schrodinger-chekhov-samus

But yeah, I think it's better to grant clues in order of narrative importance than "simulationistically", although I understand if someone disagrees.

It's niiiiice.

What about NPC that is a victim of one of the three factions comes to them with info, but only if they do a task for them (something that might lead to even more info).

@Rubiksmoose Too overdone. It gets tiresome after a while.

@MikeQ I agree with the principle that finding clues shouldn't be in question. The quality of information gained or the decision of what to do with the info is where the game lies, not in verbally-mediated pixel-hunting.

@MikeQ Fair enough.

@MikeQ Heh, in our 7th Sea game we've already started toying with the idea of Early Modern public key crypto :)

@kviiri I've considered a substitution cipher prop, and the PCs could make daily int checks in exchange for letter substitutions

If you want for it to be a puzzle for the players, that's good

But I was hoping for a steganographic approach - Hide the message in stuff like recipes, poems, sheet music, etc.

I'd probably just take the lazy road and describe the ostensible and true contents of a message without really providing the method of encryption

@MikeQ An extinct herbivore with distinctive upright plates along its back?

I know I've asked this before, but does anyone have experience with OrcPub2?

@kviiri Sure, the challenge of "Make a d20 check, get the exposition dump" is what these systems support. But it's really, really boring when that's the primary form of communicating information to the players.

@LukeSommers Ah ok. That is not from WotC though. So no official update. And no I have no experience with it. The official update is coming soon though.

@MikeQ Yeah, that's why I'd focus more on how they obtain the messages instead of the decrypting part.

@Rubiksmoose Got it.

Well as @nitsua60 put it - It's not super important how the information is encrypted - the challenge should be figuring out what the information means as a whole.

Library hit points.

Just throwin' it out there.

(Public records office hit points. Town gossip at the bar hit points. Stalking the nobles' carriages hit points.)

@nitsua60 So... quantify clues as points, then they accumulate points and then what happens?

Well, my idea is that once they have enough it "clicks" and they get the big picture.

Hmm, ok. So what I'm getting is, distribute the clues and objectives around the city. No individual location or clue should reveal the big picture. Let the PCs choose the order of traversal, and once they've discovered enough (and not necessarily all) of the clues, prompt them to put things together?

This all just reminds me at how poor D&D 5e is at handling investigation and mystery.

@Rubiksmoose Yes, it's back to what I meant to things being overdone. The game relies on formulaic approaches to its challenge design, and from a GM's and player's perspective, I find it very weak and boring.

Talk to NPC -> Get fetch quest -> Kill monsters and return McGuffin -> NPC gives money and exposition

Overdone is practically a synonym for D&D. lol

@MikeQ Pretty much. I think a format where the clues themselves are rather "insubstantial" makes this a lot easier.

Go into building -> Kill anything that moves -> Find the big journal that says "SECRET PLANS" on it -> Loot the place and sell anything that isn't immediately useful

Environmental hazards aren't interesting either, usually

Perception check to notice trap -> Dexterity check to disable trap -> Move on and forget about it

Yeah, that's DnD for you. Although I think 4e is still good for tactical campaigns where the point is doing exactly that.

I'm not sure how Gumshoe would handle the mystery bit - @BESW might know

@nitsua60 By the way, this article is pretty fantastic. Good tips on city design, good explanation of Schroedinger's Gun (never used that term before, but it works perfectly)

@MikeQ d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/other-rules/intrigue at "using a library"

Basically, if getting info is going to be part of your game use the tools of the game for it. Any source of information (library, for existence) has a complexity (DC) and a number of "library hit points." Complexity is how hard it is to get info out of it, LHP represent how much info can be gotten from the source.

Attempts are made once per $TIME. So your party face can "research" the local bars, your stealthy/scout can "research" traffic patterns at the wharves, your INT-based character can "research" the records office or a library.

But again this only works if they know where to go. So while I said above that you can just give the info, if you're gaming the gain of info then I think you have to just give the sources out.

(Many thanks to the Digressions & Dragons podcast for the pointer, even though the hosts weren't crazy about it.)

@nitsua60 Considering the place has spies from multiple factions, would that mean tracking separate "library" hit point pools, one per operation?

@Rubiksmoose it's so bad

I did a mystery one shot once and it fell apart really fast

@DavidCoffron Ooh, story time?

@MikeQ If you decide to try some other system for detectivin', I'd love to hear how it goes.

@kviiri For starters I'd say Call of Cthulhu (for social investigation), and mmaybe Shadowrun for its hacking and cyber-information-gathering mechanics

@MikeQ Each source would be statted up separately. So you might have one statblock for the Bladefangs which has a certain DC and LHP, (in)vulnerabilities and approaches. Then you also stat up what a low-level Bladefang's DC and LHP are like, in case a PC peels one off and tries getting info out of them. The PCs' aproach and targets inform you what sort of info to give up. (I.e. "researching" the organization generally gives different types of info than "researching" a mook.)

@MikeQ haha. Everything was good at first. Investigation check, analyzing clues, knowledge checks. Hunting down NPCs with more information. And then they started scrying. And using Zone of truth... And I could either hide the info anyway making them feel cheated or reveal the info and it removes so much of the fun. Plus, two of the characters had nothing to provide so they just made jokes and beat up thugs defending the clues. We still had fun but it didn't feel like a mystery

@nitsua60 Oh, I like that - categorize the factions and the effectiveness of different types of information-gathering approaches against them

I made an artificer

orcpub2.com/pages/dnd/5e/characters/17592274482972?frame=true

@DavidCoffron That's kind of the same boat I'm in, a high-magic setting where the mechanics often spoil any potential complexity. Intrigue is bypassed by divination, navigation is bypassed by teleportation, etc. I've tried to counter it by increasing the effectiveness of mundane problem-solving approaches; since most magical offenses are met by magical defenses, practical skills become more reliable.

> I always want to know how things work and what makes people tick.

This made me picture Silar from Heroes and I geeked a bit. Making that character next

(As a villain NPC)

@DavidCoffron Who's that?

@MikeQ but then your spellcasters feel like their spell slots are useless (in my experience). The issue is that classes are usually good at one or two things and mediocre at everything else

@LukeSommers heroeswiki.com/Sylar

One of my favorite characters of all time

I think 4e was a tad better in this regard, because everyone was primarily built for combat, and non-combat magic (rituals) could be learned by anyone and always came with a component cost to deter spamming them against easy problems.

@DavidCoffron No no, not making things immune to magic when they shouldn't be. Rather, create situations where magic isn't the most effective approach.

@MikeQ that sounds better for sure.

@DavidCoffron Gotcha

For example, Nondetection etc. can counter things like Scrying, but can't do much against a skilled tracker who knows how to find people via investigation

I just don't like hard (or pseduo-hard) locks (i.e. the etherealness lock in tomb of Horrors)

The power armor is pretty cool

@LukeSommers eh. It's alright. In play it just seems like a gimmick imo.

@DavidCoffron At third level there are a bunch of upgrades you can choose from. There's also the Engineer, which gives you a Thunder Cannon, as well as the Alchemist, which is potions and stuff

I'm eager to see how they improve the Artificer.

Yeah, I played the 2015 one a while ago

@DavidCoffron such a great character. That show had such potential.

@NautArch But then everything changed when the writer's strike attacked?

@MikeQ is that what happened?

@NautArch I thought that's why season 2 tanked, and so the later seasons were just the writers stumbling around to fix things and failing to do so

@MikeQ that makes a lot of sense

The UA Kalashtar looks interesting

@NautArch And by the time they hit season 5 and had some unique ideas, it was too late - the lore had become too convoluted, the existing characters' motives were all over the place, and the show was low on budget

@MikeQ had some amazing product placements, though. Every time I see a Nissan Versa I think of Hiro.

I didn't see the reboot attempt, although apparently it was so underwhelming that it's not getting continued

Heroes? I loved the first two seasons.

But like many shows, writer strike tossed it around.

@LukeSommers Wow, these races are very cool.

Right? There's more stuff here: dnd.wizards.com/articles-tags/unearthed-arcana

There's a School of Invention for Wizards in there somewhere, it's pretty cool from the brief glance I gave it

@LukeSommers yeah, reading the whole eberron UA

You know what would be cool? A physical-ability based spellcasting class

@LukeSommers Why?

@MikeQ Cause there isn't one yet. Plus, that gives people like Fighters a better chance to also use magic

@LukeSommers Eldritch knight doesn't do that for you?

or what do you mean by physical ability spellcasting?

Oh I heard about that last night. Ebberon coming to 5E?

Rather in using CHA, WIS, or INT, use STR, CON, or DEX

Rather than*

@LukeSommers Oh geez. I think taht would likely make everyone want to be a fighter. From a fluff standpoint, how would spellcasting key off of those physical abilities?

Well if there was a Hemomancer, you could use Constitution because it's blood

Not sure about strength or dexterity

Empower your spells by taking damage (for Hemomancer)

@LukeSommers Hmm, I"m still not sure I'm seeing that because they're manipulating blood makes them use their Constitution. I"m still kinda seeing magic as magic. The difference between an Evoker and Diviner isn't spellcasting ability, it's specialization of that ability.

It was just an idea, but it would prevent you from being MAD

@LukeSommers Well yeah, it would be SAD (single-attribute dependent), which is powerful but still tips the system toward imbalance

@LukeSommers Right, but there's a reason it's MAD. It can become OP if you don't have to make tradeoffs. But I guess you could balance it by making them okay at magic and physical and not great at either.

Gotcha

Oh, I can have my best stats run everything? Yeah, i want that :)

Right. You'd boost CON to 20, maybe have DEX for AC, then dump everything else, and have a big advantage over the other classes that had to make tradeoffs

But if you make the stuff they can do for each as good as their equivalent dedicated options, then that could be a balance.

Makes sense

fewer spell slots, limited spell options, less progression for attacks values (sort of like the Paladin is capped at a single extra attack), etc.

So basically a Paladin with less spell slots

@LukeSommers and no smiting

@NautArch Well yeah

:D

but yeah, that's probably how i'd start to approach it (caveat: I've never homebrewed a class)

Perhaps a CON/INT based class? You can make your spells more powerful by taking a certain amount of damage, they'd be mostly combat spells?

Your spellcasting ability is still INT

@LukeSommers Dunno if that would work in 5e's mechanics but I like the class concept

@LukeSommers Depends on what type of caster you're envisioning. I'd consider CHA over INT.

Why CHA?

Or if you are wanting pure physical to be both spellcasting and attacking, then maybe STR/CON

@LukeSommers Force of will

I feel like if I do that, it's much more like Paladin, with CHA being important for them

@LukeSommers You may be interested to look at 4e. The different ability scores often get integrated and mixed in stuff like spellcasting

No one around where I live plays or runs 4e

@LukeSommers Yeah, agreed. And I like the idea of CON as your spellcasting ability.

Especially if you're keying off of damage to power.

@NautArch Then how do I make it not SAD?

@LukeSommers Limit what the class can do, perhaps?

Most rogues are Dexterity-dependent, but they don't get proficiency in mental saving throws

I know the Kineticist from Pathfinder does something similar, using CON for spellcasting and taking damage to use more powerful spells

@LukeSommers Kineticist from Pathfinder is not a good example because the class does not function as it was designed

How so?

Short version: They're advertised as this elemental blaster who can exhaust themselves in exchange for nova damage. But they're mediocre at blasting because their blasting potential relies on extremely limited resources, and they're much better at using their cheaper features for movement and utility.

Gotcha

@MikeQ @LukeSommers This. You limit other things. No mental save proficiencies. Fewer spells, less powerful spells, fewer attacks. You have to create your downsides in other areas to account for the upsides in ability scores.

Perhaps CON and STR saves?

Pathfinder also had witch(?) Who could cast with Con IIRC

Sorry, what's IIRC

@Rubiksmoose Nope. Witches are Int-based. There is a Charisma-based witch archetype that casts like a sorcerer.

?*

@LukeSommers If I Recall Correctly

Thank you

What would a hit die be for this?

Not a d6, definitely

@LukeSommers Casters typically don't go beyond a d8

Alright

@LukeSommers That's another potential lever, but I'd lean d8. Possibly d10 if the spellcasting will be very limited *(like the paladin)

Think about the amount of health it would need to function regularly

pulls out DCC dice How about a d9

DCC die*

If it's going to get damaged a lot (like barbarian) then it needs more HP and bigger HD. If the idea is to play cautiously and use powers from a distance, then it should be able to get by with a smaller HD.

So little spellcasting, d10?

It's combat spells, mostly focusing on increasing damage at melee. True Strike would likely be on the list.

@LukeSommers Would they be better at a fighter's role compared to an actual fighter?

No, that would be unbalanced

@LukeSommers Note that paladins do not get any cantrips.

They do, however, have smite and up to level 5 spells. This would be up to level 2, maybe 3.

@AVeryLargeBear Removing Fireball as your prime example in your question was a pretty drastic change. I don't think it was a good idea to change that. Possibly better to ask a 2nd question.

d20pfsrd.com/races/other-races/featured-races/arg-orc/…

It was scarred witch doctor and I do believe it allowed Con casting

Perhaps choose 1 from True Strike, Booming Blade, or Green Flame Blade?

@LukeSommers Why would you ever pick True Strike :)

But again, there may be a reason they didn't give Paladins cantrips.

and should probably consider that when brewing this class

Alright

@Rubiksmoose I'm reading the archetype and I don't see this Con casting feature anywhere

My hunch is that they are good enough at combat that they didn't want to give them no resource cost spellcasting.

@MikeQ It looks like they changed it after I left PF d20pfsrd.com/races/other-races/featured-races/arg-orc/…

@Rubiksmoose Ah, that seems plausible. Paizo's writers just love contradicting and correcting themselves.

@NautArch Divine Favor looks good, but it's already for paladins...

Correct link for what I meant in the last message reddit.com/r/pathfinder_rpg/comments/3r4xmm/_

@LukeSommers that's okay. Using the paladin list is probably a good starting point. On a side note, I've also never cast divine favor. But that would likely change if i wasn't more concerned about holding my spells lots for smites.

I'm trying to find less powerful damaging first level spells...

It's also DIVINE favor, so I'm not sure how that would connect.

@LukeSommers For the Hemomancer...what if you created a system where HP lost turns into Spell points?

Not 1:1, but develop a system that makes sense with avg HP and scaling.

That could work. Spell points as in slots?

@LukeSommers No, spell points as in spell points. It's an alternate casting methodology in the DMG.

Hm... 5 HP lost gives you 1 Spell Point?

This sort of "be hurt -> get spellcasting power" would need a lot of qualifiers, otherwise you get a class with a built-in bag of rats exploit

d10 hit die, probably +3 CON, you'd have 2 first level spells without healing

Even more so if it's divine and gets access to healing spells

Bag of Rats?

Sorry, I'm not really familiar with these terms

Short version: An exploit where an ability imposes a cost, but there is a reliable way (outside of the ability) to trivialize the cost

For example, if you had an ability that says "Every time you kill a creature, you gain 10 HP" then you could carry around a bag of rats and kill them for free healing

@MikeQ No access to healing spells, perhaps somehow equating it with max HP?

In this case, if being damaged gives you spell points, then the character could spend all their spell slots, then recover by stabbing and healing themselves until they're at max HP and get their slots back

@AVeryLargeBear I know, but the specific rules of Fireball were directly impacting the answers (and the question). It's not really fair to the answerers to remove your example that fundamentally impacted their answers. But this is just my opinion.

Maybe you could limit the pain-for-spells feature by having it a certain number of times per rest

@MikeQ Every 12 max HP your character has (From Hemomancer, so people don't take levels in barbarian and get more spell points), you get a spell point? That would prevent you from getting them back from healing

@MikeQ @LukeSommers That's a good point- maybe create a Rage like effect? Where you can only do it while 'raging' and you have limited options to do that?

plus a cap on how many spell points you have at any given level.