TRPG General Chat

doppelgreener

17:00

@DavidCoffron Occam's razor has flaws: it doesn't actually say what the solution is that makes the least assumptions. And really, "the worms can stay in there and not affect the target and not be cured" and also "this isn't a disease" and "immunity doesn't imply anything's cured" look like assumptions.

David Coffron

@SirCinnamon Lay on Hands isn't effected by a null magic area typically

@doppelgreener It is the null assumption, "it is only a disease if something says it is"

Rubiksmoose

@DavidCoffron this is correct because it is not a magical ability.

David Coffron

@doppelgreener Also, I didn't say immunity doesn't cure something. I said it isn't a targeted ability

KorvinStarmast

@DavidCoffron If I may quote a cogent observation by BESW ...

NautArch

@goodguy5 take a look at mine :)

HellSaint

17:02

Generally, for RPG.se, I find RAW answers to be the least we should be giving when possible. In the end, this is the "right" answer, as far as we can have a common ground. Everything else is based on our experiences, our players and DMs and our way to have fun. It might or might not work for other people.

KorvinStarmast

> We aren't here on the Stack to read the rulebooks to people. We're here to help people learn how to synthesize the mechanics, the non-mechanical text, the social context, our personal experience, the learning of the broader community, to apply all that to a particular real-life problem someone's having and find a solution for it. (BESW's observation)

HellSaint

By the way, hey.

David Coffron

@HellSaint Then every answer is "ask your GM" (in 5e at least)

doppelgreener

@DavidCoffron No, now you are making that dichotomy.

@KorvinStarmast This thing is the thing we do.

HellSaint

I usually do write that on my bottom lines :P

Rubiksmoose

17:03

@NautArch "There are a myriad of examples that show otherwise (creatures immune to Frightened are not affected by a Vengeance Paladin's Abjure Enemy." you should make this sentence clearer. I only know what you mean because of discussion/@DavidCoffron's answer

NautArch

@HellSaint I somewhat agree, but in general the rules are the only shared experience we have at each table.

David Coffron

@doppelgreener Ok, I will stand correct: "every good answer is ask your GM, and here's some context" since every answer would include rule 0

doppelgreener

@DavidCoffron You're not really listening to us.

KorvinStarmast

@DavidCoffron A number of people on this stack have gotten upset when I say the following. "if you aren't working with your DM, you are doing it wrong." The rules in 5e do not exist in a vacuum; they exist in a space that includes people.

I guess there's a nicer way to say that, but it's as clearly as I can express that thought.

David Coffron

@KorvinStarmast Working with your GM is a given. (Rule 0). Should not our answers move beyond that. There is a possible clear answer with RAW. Every other answer is subjective. I don't understand why I am getting hate from the only objective answer that can be reached

HellSaint

17:05

By the way, when I said "the least", I don't mean as the worst thing, but as the minimum we should be answering.

Then, after we give the RAW answer, we can give our experience on why RAW might not be the best.

KorvinStarmast

@DavidCoffron No hate from here. I hope my comment didn't give offense.

NautArch

@Rubiksmoose better?

Rubiksmoose

@NautArch much :)

HellSaint

But we should at least give them the RAW answer, which is the common ground for everyone.

doppelgreener

@DavidCoffron You're copping flak for asserting it's the only objective answer that can be reached and assuming it's objectively correct, and condescending to anyone who might object as obviously being wrong and not getting it, and you're asserting that the only types of answers are "here's the objective RAW fact, pendantism and nonsense included" or "ask your GM".

NautArch

17:06

@HellSaint Ah! Yes :) That's the experience bit that gives a good deal of insight and what makes opinion-based answers good!

David Coffron

@doppelgreener I don't think it is the only right answer, but no one has tried to argue against my answer (only that it isn't RAI, which I never said it was).

KorvinStarmast

@HellSaint No ... since we seem to have a special definition of what RAW means on this stack. See the meta and the description in the tag.

doppelgreener

@DavidCoffron Sorry, you think "the only objective answer that can be reached" isn't the only right answer?

Because it looks like you're saying it's the only right answer, when you say it's the only objective answer that can be reached.

David Coffron

@doppelgreener objective was a qualifier for using what we have (devoid of context). Using context, some subjective answers can be reached (which may be better or more helpful)

KorvinStarmast

Ok, so I can't post a question, but was able to post an answer on Meta. I Declare Victory!!!!! 8^D

David Coffron

17:08

I didn't mean objective in that way

HellSaint

@KorvinStarmast I don't see how the tag is different from the usual definition of RAW.

doppelgreener

Well, listen to what we're saying, and it might be less of a mystery why you're copping flak. (Part of that is: you haven't been listening to what we're saying.)

David Coffron

Subjective answers (like NautArch's) can be better than mine (which is objective only)

doppelgreener

@DavidCoffron Do you know that people could also come up with other different objective answers that can disagree with yours?

David Coffron

@doppelgreener Yes, but no one has proposed one

KorvinStarmast

17:09

@HellSaint We went through more than one flame war on meta over the RAW issue ... so I am not going to re open that can of worms. A rules referenced answer is something we usually like in that it usually offer support for the reasoning in an answer.

doppelgreener

@DavidCoffron Sure. But you're asserting yours is the only objective answer that could possibly be reached. That's something that will cop you flak.

Not has been reached, can be reached at all.

KorvinStarmast

Be excellent to each other ...

HellSaint

What specific question/answer you're talking about, btw?

NautArch

@KorvinStarmast I like your answer to that Meta question. It's a good middle ground between Icyfires suggestion and the reality of the stack.

HellSaint

I've scrolled up but it seems lost in time already haha

Rubiksmoose

17:11

8

Q: Would Spawn of Kyuss worms infesting a Paladin die?

At third level, Paladins gain the feature Divine Health: By 3rd level, the divine magic flowing through you makes you immune to disease. (PHB, p. 85) There's a monster in Volo's Guide To Monsters called the Spawn of Kyuss which can infect enemies with a burrowing worm. If it burrows into a...

David Coffron

.@doppelgreener my superlative was unintentional. "I don't see any other objective answers" would be better

NautArch

@KorvinStarmast WYLD STALLYNS!

doppelgreener

@DavidCoffron Yes, that would be much better.

David Coffron

Apologies to anyone who may have felt I had condescended them (was not my intent)

Rubiksmoose

@doppelgreener fwiw, I do think @DavidCoffron may have been unintentionally coming off in a different way. I interpreted it less harshly than you for context.

doppelgreener

17:12

@Rubiksmoose It seems so.

David Coffron

English is so weird, condescended and condescending are pairs. There is no subject version of the adjective/verb group

Rubiksmoose

@DavidCoffron it is always a good reminder to be careful to phrase our language in such a way that does assume we are correct or disparage the other side

Even though it was not your intent (which I believe)

David Coffron

@Rubiksmoose I'm trying (see my edits). English just doesn't have a way for that

(with those words)

doppelgreener

Sorry for the misunderstanding then @DavidCoffron.

David Coffron

@doppelgreener All good. I wasn't clear and did get a little heated unnecessarily. Now I am scrounging the DMG for disease details to give a better answer.

NautArch

17:21

@Rubiksmoose I decided to move that 'myriad' clause to the other section :)

Rubiksmoose

A much more blatant example: Just the other day I edited an answer that said that "no DM worth their salt" would have ruled [the opposite of their answer], which may have sounded much better to them in their head, but is obviously fairly insulting to those DMs (such as myself) that actually had ruled that (and still believe it to be correct)

NautArch

@Rubiksmoose and salt can be bad for you :P

Rubiksmoose

@NautArch but soo sooo good

David Coffron

@Rubiksmoose How much is a DM's salt worth?

GreySage

The chick is visible

David Coffron

17:24

Are we talking like salt in a DM's body or the expression of their saltiness (colloquial) in game, because a salty DM can wreak some havoc :P

doppelgreener

@DavidCoffron As much as they say it is 8)

GreySage

aaaand now it's covered again

kviiri

Fun fact: "worth their salt" dates back to the Roman Empire when salt was actually rather valuable and salaries (also etymologically connected to salt) were commonly paid in it.

Rubiksmoose

@DavidCoffron yeah saltiness at the table is generally not a good sign lol

kviiri

Or wait, is this one of those common misconceptions

NautArch

17:25

@Rubiksmoose Unless you're talking about that bowl of Doritos

David Coffron

@Rubiksmoose Unless you have some snacks like Doritos, which I strongly recommend

Hahaha @NautArch beat me to it

Rubiksmoose

I love how you both went specifically for Doritos.

David Coffron

I just ate some

goodguy5

ugh, I can't view it at work, what is the 3.5 Kyuss attack labeled as? I thought it was disease

NautArch

@goodguy5 I believe it's a Salt Attack.

goodguy5

17:26

>.>

NautArch

@Rubiksmoose I went with ranch flavored wavy lays instead. But I saw a Doritos truck this morning and it's stuck in my head (rather than my teeth)

David Coffron

@goodguy5 Nothing here about disease, though that isn't super useful.

Rubiksmoose

RPG.SE, now sponsored by Doritos: "Crunchy rules".

goodguy5

ha

kviiri

I can now play Paranoid, Sandstorm, Finlandia and Metal Gear Solid Main Theme on my recorder

not as good a set list as I have on the kazoo

doppelgreener

17:29

> The expression to be worth one’s salt, which means you’re competent and deserve what you’re earning, is most often said to have its roots in ancient Rome, where soldiers were sometimes paid in salt or given an allowance to purchase it. The word salary is derived from the Latin “salarium,” which originally referred to a soldier’s allowance to buy salt. — google.co.uk/amp/amp.history.com/news/ask-history/…

Rubiksmoose

@kviiri ohhhh recorder the instrument....that makes things much clearer.

doppelgreener

Salt being relevant here as a food preservative, so you're worth the food and upkeep it takes to have you.

kviiri

@Rubiksmoose AKA the s!#$@&?tyflute

goodguy5

more like clarinet, imo

NautArch

@kviiri I'm hoping to bypass my kid's learning recorder by having them learn other instruments at home.

Rubiksmoose

17:31

@kviiri I imagined the sound of a squealing recorder blocking out the middle word sounds of the naughty word

kviiri

@NautArch Because of the noise eh? :D

NautArch

@goodguy5 nah, there's a reed in a clarinet. Flute is just air through a hole like a recorder.

@kviiri Yup, not a fan. And I'm a clarinet player :P

doppelgreener

@kviiri [counts number of wingdings] ... the shacketyflute?

kviiri

@doppelgreener that

@NautArch There's a saying here that a gentleman is someone who can play the accordion. But doesn't.

NautArch

@kviiri bahahahahaha

I'm going to have to remember (and use) that

kviiri

17:32

I can pull some really simple waltzes on the accordion

Rubiksmoose

@kviiri I love that. And am definitely using that.

kviiri

Feel free :)

doppelgreener

@kviiri beautiful

KorvinStarmast

@NautArch thank you, kind sir. I like Icyfire's general approach. I wanted the answer to be concise and to feature BESW's point that I had starred a while back. It's something I need to keep in mind as I answer a question ... of any sort.

kviiri

One of the few pieces I can play on the accordion is a Finnish pop-waltz based on Norwegian Wood by the Beatles, called Norjalainen villapaita (Norwegian sweater)

doppelgreener

17:37

@KorvinStarmast I think it's missing something, so I've left a comment.

NautArch

@KorvinStarmast I upvoted Icyfire at first because I think he's right. But gave you an updoot because it's a good middleground as well.

@DavidCoffron Would a creature immune to either poison or disease be immune to the Oytugh?

KorvinStarmast

@doppelgreener I hope the edit made it more complete. @NautArch I'd not mind burning the tag, but there's probably a subset of designer reasons questions in various systems that are "just right" ... so burning the tag might be a poor idea.

NautArch

@KorvinStarmast I thought icyfire was saying ban the question, not burn the tag?

David Coffron

@NautArch to his disease, yes

KorvinStarmast

getting all grumpy due to not being able to post my question. :( @NautArch Yeah, maybe my idea that 'it amounts to the same thing' is incorrect. The "this category of question doesn't fit" is a better way to view it.

David Coffron

17:48

@NautArch Although just immunity to poisoned condition would only prevent that, the HP reduction every day (that I didn't quote) would not be prevented

goodguy5

@DavidCoffron Are you saying immunity to disease wouldn't? because the Otyugh bite specifically calls it a disease

David Coffron

@goodguy5 No, NautArch also asked about immunity to poisoned. Immunity to' disease would make you immune to the entire effect

goodguy5

oh okay

NautArch

18:12

@DavidCoffron Ah, looked at the stat block meself. Yeah, you've got a disease which also give you the poisoned condition. Being a paladin would rock here :)

kviiri

Huh, 4e metallic dragons don't have the polymorph thing going where they can morph into humanoids for diplomacy.

By the book anyway

NautArch

@kviiri Metallic dragons don't need diplomacy?

kviiri

@NautArch Well sure they don't need it, they're dragons! A good breath weapon and some clawing is a rather universal language in all courts.

But metallic dragons, by usual DnD portrayals, tend to like it anyway! :)

I'm planning content for my 4e campaign. The grand concept is that an evil spirit is trying to find a way off an island by coercing the locals to build a ship for him or find some alternative means to cross the ocean. Conveniently, there's also a benevolent dragon on the island and they're going undercover to avoid being corrupted by the spirit to carry it over the ocean.

HellSaint

18:46

Is there an answered question about fire-proof worn items on 5e that doesn't require Designer's intent?

I'm asking because I'm honestly interested on that now, but I care about Crawford's opinion on it as much as I care about any other experienced DM

NautArch

@HellSaint What would the question be? The rules are clear that items worn/carried are fireproof.

HellSaint

The consequences of house-ruling it as THINGS NOW BURN!

it seems the consequence is something on the lines of "the game becomes boring as hell everytime you throw a fireball and the players have to roll 256 saving throws for each item", but I would appreciate a complete answer on the subject

kviiri

I think that'd be an ok question

I think I even suggested that when the designer-intent question was a hot topic

However it's certain to attract opinionated answers (bad subjective) in addition to people who have actual experience doing it.

Rubiksmoose

@kviiri "hot topic" ;)

@HellSaint there is not.

goodguy5

@kviiri I thought we already had that question

HellSaint

18:58

I might try and write it then, and I'll try to make it clear that speculation is not welcome haha

kviiri

@goodguy5 We had one about designer intent, I have no recollection about a house rule evaluation request

Rubiksmoose

@HellSaint make that very clear because even if you do, you will still get junk answers

kviiri

@Rubiksmoose I honestly couldn't stress this one enough

doppelgreener

Hooray, I've acquired some crucial summer wardrobe bits now that London's suddenly decided it's summer.

Rubiksmoose

@kviiri I did a pretty thorough search for resources when that question was active and found nothing then. Unless I missed something since there is still nothing.

kviiri

19:00

@doppelgreener London is really being OOC?

doppelgreener

(very soon after it decided to have winter, then warm up, then have second winter)

Rubiksmoose

@doppelgreener hey if it is really stylish you could be dappergreener

doppelgreener

@kviiri I think unpredictable weather is part of London's behaviour. 🤔

@Rubiksmoose That's not a bad idea...

kviiri

@doppelgreener Climate zone: l0lrand0m

doppelgreener

Weather today is [roll 1d100]

Rubiksmoose

19:14

That designer reasons meta is very interesting

goodguy5

I found the 2nd edition kyuss lomion.de/cmm/kyussson.php

HellSaint

welp, tried it -rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/121224/…

Rubiksmoose

@HellSaint I would suggest removing " from different game systems" because that is just asking for trouble.

Other game systems might not have the same mechanics as D&D so how would they be applicable?

goodguy5

could we just pull up the really good answer that's deleted in that designer intent question?

Rubiksmoose

@goodguy5 probably not actually since none of them backed their answers up with experience from actually having used the house rule.

goodguy5

19:19

I mean, I can't see it, but I recall it being a good read

Rubiksmoose

The designers haven't said anything about it.
That's the direct answer to your question. As to why, since they haven't said anything, the best I can do is extrapolate. To that end:

Convenience
That's really it. Imagine for a second that this rule wasn't in place. Firebolt is a cantrip which ignites flammable objects. So I make a Sorcerer who specializes in twinning firebolts and my entire purpose in life is incinerating everything an enemy has on him.

Ogre coming at me with a club? Firebolt! Good bye club.

kviiri

I agree with Rubiksmoose. The implications of "your stuff can burn" are quite different in different games and styles.

Eg. in DnD item progression tends to be a large part of the game, and a setback of losing something like a spell scroll or a magical staff can be in the same magnitude as being pushed back a level

In Apocalypse World, losing one's stuff is a normal, if hard GM move

HellSaint

@Rubiksmoose earlier editions is fine or no?

kviiri

(and one mostly used to set up storylines for reclaiming that stuff)

Rubiksmoose

@HellSaint eh. I would personally say no. But having never played before 3.5 I have no idea if there are useful things for you there. You might be able to get something but I am not sure.

kviiri

19:24

I think the bottom line is, the answer needs to be based on a sound understanding of 5e

Rubiksmoose

@HellSaint My big concern about the question right now is that it is pretty broad, but maybe I am just overthinking it. Or maybe the broadness won't affect the quality of the answers. So I think you should take every measure you can to get yourself a focused relavent answer.

HellSaint

Added this: I.e., it seems accepted this is somehow gamebreaking, but I don't see how is it game-breaking?

also I need to make my mind on game-breaking or gamebreaking, english speakers help me please lol

@Rubiksmoose that is actually a good answer to my question as I read it - these are logical implications and scenarios, there is no "I think this would happen" - these scenarios could happen and they are obviously problematic.

Now the thing is - how do I make my question clear about it? haha

Rubiksmoose

@HellSaint I think game-breaking looks the most correct to me.

goodguy5

19:40

anyone have their 1st edition fiend folio convenient?

nm, found one.

doppelgreener

@HellSaint man we're still trying to work that out too XD

there's lots of words in English you can fuse with a hyphen, and sometimes it also looks OK to fuse without

Mike Q

Play it safe, use a hyphen

trogdor

lol

kviiri

19:57

Re: designer reasons, in case you haven't noticed they're being discussed in Meta: rpg.meta.stackexchange.com/questions/7914/…

4

doppelgreener

I'm at a loss too and don't have any good answers for how to handle these better. I just wanted to say that, because a lack of mod-written answers forthcoming might make this look like a Mod Team question when it isn't. I'll be reading though — I'm hopeful for a better outcome. — SevenSidedDie ♦ 21 hours ago

^ i'd like to highlight this in that context as well, since it could be a sensitive topic to discuss

kviiri

I'm a bit wary about designer reasons myself because... well, most of the traffic this site gets comes from DnD which isn't too good with having transparent intentions in the first place.

Yuuki said it better than I can

Apr 5 at 16:21, by Yuuki

> Q: "Why did <class> get this specific ability?"
> Site user: "Because it fills in a needed design space and it provides a counter against <strategy>."
> Designer: "lol because i thought it was cool."

doppelgreener

@kviiri and a lot of the time the reason is "a previous edition did it".

kviiri

@doppelgreener Of all the sad words of tongue and pen, the saddest are these: "it's always been!"

doppelgreener

@kviiri that's a marvelous phrase.

trogdor

20:06

@doppelgreener one more reason I liked 4e, they still did that, but they got creative with it most of the time

Often the feature was exactly the same in name only

doppelgreener

@trogdor i completely agree with that! on the other hand though, as far as people marketing to a more conservative gaming crowd are concerned, D&D 4e became the thing to point to as reason why you do things the way previous editions did them, entirely because previous editions did them that way.

trogdor

Yeah well that is the fault of people who hated on 4e without trying it

If fewer people had felt inclined to do that there would be no marketing to do around how 4e was wrong on something it actually did right relative to other editions

kviiri

Or tried to play it as something else and hated on it for not working. It's a fairly natural mistake to make I guess...

Sir Cinnamon

4e allowed me to learn to play DnD when at the time 3.5e was complicated and daunting

trogdor

@kviiri fair enough on that point too

But I don't blame people for that one

Mike Q

20:12

@trogdor I am still looking for an opportunity to try out 4e for myself. The crowd who got me into tabletop gaming, they universally dislike 4e. But I hear it was a lot better at handling the Muggle Problem, so I'm still open to it.

2

trogdor

If you actually tried 4e and didn't just toss it in the garbage chute after looking at it for 10 seconds, at least you can say you gave it a shot

kviiri

@MikeQ Muggle Problem being that Fighters and such are inferior and less interesting than magical classes?

trogdor

@MikeQ it definitely was better at that

Mike Q

@kviiri In a nutshell yes

doppelgreener

@MikeQ D&D 4e was phenomenal for its quality of making all the classes on par with each other.

trogdor

20:13

It ties into why some people didn't like it, but basically all the classes in 4e start on equal footing

Mike Q

@kviiri Basically, my view is that in a Harry Potter world, it's fine to have the ability to warp space and time at will. Because everyone's fundamentally playing the same game. If you're not a powerful wizard yet, you still can become one.

kviiri

@MikeQ In that case, 4e isn't just better. It's faaaar better.

doppelgreener

Our party consists of an arcane caster, a primal caster, and two martial characters. The latter two are phenomenal. But the primal and arcane characters have their moments of being quite scary too.

trogdor

The fighter is the star so far, mechanically

Rubiksmoose

@MikeQ I hear Voldemort-2e was the best at handling the Muggle Problem.

doppelgreener

20:15

D&D 4e's authors just decided something like: "okay, these are big damn heroes, not average people. Let's lean into that and let the martial characters do amazing acts of physical prowess or battlefield inspiration or so on. Let's not pussyfoot around 'oh, well, a normal person might not be able to do that' when this is a fantasy story where people can summon meteors with their brains."

trogdor

Lol

Yep

kviiri

4e Fighters aren't just muggles with swords. They're legendary warriors who may not be overtly magical but still clearly have a supernaturally strong aptitude with their weapons. Think along the lines of legendary samurai. Or Big Boss.

Mike Q

@doppelgreener Yes, that's how I want to see it too. If a legendary wizard can chant a single spell that lights a house on fire, then the non-wizards of that level should be equally legendary. The legendary thief can pick any pocket, or escape any prison. The legendary warrior can keep fighting because they refuse to fall.

doppelgreener

@kviiri Plus, in D&D 4e, everyone gets access to magic -- via rituals, which are for the unusual niche out-of-combat things. Some classes just get easier access to rituals.

trogdor

Plenty of settings have guys who can throw fireballs but still. Also just warriors with huge swords who crack the earth when the jump at dudes

kviiri

20:17

@doppelgreener 5e taught me how much I like the 4e separation between combat and utility magic.

Mike Q

This isn't just a personal philosophy thing - I've been in position as a martial character, a caster character, and a GM, and in all three roles I have observed the martial characters get quickly upstaged by the casters. Anything they can do, a spellcaster can do better. And the players basically have the feeling of playing a muggle in a Harry Potter campaign. Hence the term.

doppelgreener

@kviiri I think separating those as a game currency is so important.

kviiri

@MikeQ Heh, I've been there. And it's not even just a power gulf, it's also a huge difference in terms of stuff one can do.

doppelgreener

Like, super important. Your weird unsual non-combat stuff, and your in-combat effectiveness, should be counted in two different collections, as far as learning and spending goes.

kviiri

A mage can plausibly cast dozens of spells during a single session while the Fighter seldom does anything but "hit him with my sword" and "hit him again, with my sword".

@doppelgreener Aye!

doppelgreener

20:20

@kviiri I have heard it put very effectively the following way: martial characters in D&D typically get a sword, and then very big numbers they can apply with that sword. They then get more features that make those numbers bigger. Their problem however isn't that their numbers don't get big enough: they get enormous. The problem is a vanishingly small percentage of tasks get solved by those numbers as the game grows.

Anyone with magic gets whole new ways to apply their numbers to resolve situations, but anyone without is usually stuck with only one way to apply their numbers.

Mike Q

Right, and that touches on two problems I see in the game's design.
1. Not all problems can be solved by hitting it with a sword. If your character's only option is "hit thing with sword", then prepare to be sidelined a lot.

kviiri

@MikeQ In case you're not familiar with 4e, there's a single mechanic that encompasses most of the features of each class: powers. Arcane powers are spells like magic missiles and fire balls. Fighter powers are exploits such as Steel Serpent Strike (slows a target in addition to damage) or Griffon's Wrath (reduces the target's AC in addition to damage).

Mike Q

2. When the swordsman is Good at using a sword, the mage can clap their hands and become just as Good. Either they buff themselves, or they summon a Really Good swordsman to do it. So in the long run, there's no reason to play a swordsman.

kviiri

The amount of powers is roughly the same for each class. A Fighter has as much choice as a wizard does in terms of what abilities they use in combat.

doppelgreener

Yeah. D&D 4e solved both those problems and did it so well.

The fighter can do things the wizard can't because they have entirely different types of powers giving them entirely different roles in the party.

Mike Q

20:23

That sounds a lot more balanced and fun

doppelgreener

And the thing the fighter does is super valuable. And super impressive.

43

A: Should rogues play stealth or tank on D&D?

High Reflex Doth Not A Tank Make Having a high reflex doesn't count for anything extraordinary. It's one of four defences beside armor, fortitude and will, and one quarter of attacks missing you more often doesn't make you a tank. The magic of defenders, however, is not a matter of being unable...

This talks about how the fighter handles being a tank for the party. ^

kviiri

Yeah. The 4e Fighter is a Defender. Their speciality is marking enemies so they can't effectively engage anyone but the Fighter!

trogdor

ooor, they punish someone for trying

it's on two layers

kviiri

Yeah

trogdor

sometimes an enemy loses a whole turn for even attempting to hit someone else

kviiri

20:24

@doppelgreener This is one of the first questions I remember reading on this site <3

doppelgreener

@kviiri aww :D

trogdor

(even if they missed or never got an attack roll)

kviiri

Probably not the first because I had been playing for a long time before that.

@MikeQ 4e uses a system of fouir roles: Defender, Strikes, Controller and Leader. Each class belongs to one of these roles and their powers tend to be appropriate for that role, with enough flexibility to still build towards fulfilling a secondary role too

Mike Q

@kviiri I'm reading through the doppleanswer now

doppelgreener

And the Defender role basically doesn't actually exist in other editions AFAIK. There was something like them in the Tome of Battle, maybe.

kviiri

20:28

Defenders are good at taking/dodging damage and marking enemies so they're forced to go after defenders, Strikers are direct damage experts, Controllers are AoE/area control guys and Leaders are healer/buff guys

trogdor

Also also, you can still build strikers as secondary defenders

(I have done it before)

Mike Q

The major criticism I hear of 4e is that it's too much like an MMORPG, but I don't quite know what that criticism is supposed to mean, considering that other versions/adaptations of DND are also MMORPG-like.

kviiri

One of the common criticisms towards 4e is that all classes of the same role feel too similar, which I can't really disagree with.

@MikeQ It's more heavily built around balanced combat than simulationism

BESW

@MerriamWebster (HULK ALSO CHECK ENTRY FOR 'ROLLER-COASTER' AT LEAST ONCE WEEKLY TO SEE WHETHER M-W EDITORS FINALLY DECIDE TO CLOSE IT UP! THAT HYPHEN GNAW AT HULK'S SOUL!)

Tweeted by GRAMMARHULK on April 24, 2018 at 3:36 AM in reply to GRAMMARHULK

kviiri

Rollercoasters, known across Europe as Russian mountains, except in Russia where they're American mountains.

trogdor

20:32

@MikeQ yeah that one makes me so mad

kviiri

Oh, and Estonia. American there too.

BESW

@kviiri I gotta say, a shaman and a warlord feel totally different, a ranger and a slayer are miles apart, a fighter and a swordmage have completely different presences.

kviiri

@BESW I recall me constantly forgetting which of our two Defenders was Warden and which was FIghter though

Didn't help that the Fighter was one of those races that had sort of nature themed powers I think...

trogdor

@kviiri fighter and warden are the most similar classes

If you had a fighter and a paladin or a Swordmage, you would see constant difference

BESW

Yeah, the Warden is... a fighter with a bad ranged option.

[sad]

trogdor

20:42

@BESW look, I built a beastly warden

kviiri

Is Warden bad enough that I should advise against picking it?

trogdor

It's not a useless class

kviiri

Okay, in that case probably not :)

BESW

The primal classes got the short end of the stick, but Seeker's the only class I'd actively advise to avoid entirely.

trogdor

I would not recommend playing it as your first class though

kviiri

20:43

We have only four players (so far) so we're not likely to get two defenders anyway

@BESW Seekers being the Primal magic archers? What's wrong with them?

trogdor

Everything

BESW

18

A: What's so bad about Seeker anyways?

Anything a Seeker can do another class can do better. Much better. Here are the trends, there are exceptions, but they are rare. I will compare Seekers to real controllers, like Wizards, Invokers and Psions. I will call them WIP for brevity. Hunters are comparable to Seekers. Survivability See...

HellSaint

I'm not sure my question on flammable items was any good, but at least I'm having good laughs at the two answers so far.

BESW

Seekers are controllers with soft control. They've got great flavor, but are bad at the job they're supposed to be doing.

Mike Q

Well, most of yall seem like decent folks, so if anyone's running an online 4e game, I'd be happy to jump in

kviiri

20:45

Well... I was planning to go with just PHB 1 and 2 classes anyway

HellSaint

But i'm feeling sorry for Rubiks, he seems to be getting alot of work on comments haha

kviiri

Rubik has chosen the honorable life of a Stack Curator himself. For this, we envy him, respect him and pity him.

Rubiksmoose

21:03

@HellSaint @kviiri hahaha well I'm not sure my comments did any real good, but I try. The hard part for me is not commenting unless it is really helpful honestly.

BESW

21:14

@trogdor Given how much my invoker has been kinda dominating fights and making the leader a little superfluous, I'm thinking about rolling up a Seeker.

trogdor

XD ok if you think that will help

I kinda feel like maybe the build our leader has is contributing though

BESW

Yes.

Yes, it is.

But part of optimization is optimizing for the party you have.

And our party has a warlord with that build.

trogdor

Yeah

That's true for sure

@BESW do you have any advice as to how I could put the spotlight on her more?

BESW

I'll have to look at her build.

I think what she really needs right now is help keeping track of her powers so she knows what her options are during combat.

Roll20 doesn't really help with that.

goodguy5

21:49

team?

are we allowed to say "dick move" in an answer?

Rubiksmoose

@goodguy5 I wouldn't personally

goodguy5

fiiiiiiiiiiiiiine

Rubiksmoose

@goodguy5 lol

BESW

Someone emailed me a question “as a publisher is it preferable that people purchase your books directly from you as opposed to amazon at a discount?” And while the answer is yes, the details are more nuanced. Screenshot of my answer, here.

Tweeted by fredhicks on April 24, 2018 at 8:58 PM

goodguy5

answer posted to the kyuss worms paladin thing

one of the few times where I separate racs/raf

0

A: Would Spawn of Kyuss worms infesting a Paladin die?

(these answers, imo, also apply to the Monk's Purity of Body) RAW: Paladins are probably susceptible to Kyuss Worms Because of ... Reasons. 5th edition did away with a lot of verbose text present in previous editions, in favor of "plain English interpretation". With that, we get a fallout of pr...

now, I'm going to leave this site and get dinner ready and go to board game night

👋

trogdor

22:03

@BESW yeah Roll 20 really does disappoint in a few regards

It is helpful in some ways though

goodguy5

23:04

@DavidCoffron can't easily comment. But yes curse immunity imo would prevent kyuss worms

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