TRPG General Chat

BESW

00:24

@Shalvenay A couple of Google searches later I can't find much about its cultural sensitivity to the real-world peoples that Barker's cribbing off of, but the books seem to have Burroughs levels of lasciviousness.

Shalvenay

@BESW hrm. seems to be more an artifact of the times than a honest effort then, from that judgement

BESW

I get the impression (again, haven't actually read the thing) that it's sort of a Dune kind of sincerity.

In part because Tekumel is definitely interested in offering negative commentary on colonization and prejudice.

Shalvenay

@BESW hrm.

BESW

On its own, it probably does an okay job with that. But Barker's got genuine interest and scholarship in the real-world cultures, and is trying to use a fictional portrayal of them to communicate his themes... and since he seems to be simultaneously mashing them all together, that doesn't bode well for the result.

From a review:

> Third, the cultures which have been created (which, as noted above, grew out of the myth and language Barker was developing) are rich, alien things. They are extremely baroque, being based along the classical lines of the Indian, Chinese, and Japanese cultures.

Equating SEA cultures with literally inhuman aliens is... troublesome?

Shalvenay

@BESW that reviewer's use of alien, to me, connotes "different from norms" not "extraterrestrial" or "inhuman"

hey there @Acts7Seven

BESW

00:31

@Shalvenay Since Tekumel is actually taking place on an alien planet in humanity's far future, with non-human alien species....

trogdor

that is pretty problematic

BESW

Again, I haven't read any of the stuff.

I could be getting the completely wrong impression, and even these particular choices are not impossible to handle with grace and respect.

At this point I'm just...

trogdor

fair enough

but if it is the same as that one Avatar movie,....

BESW

Because even if Barker did a great job respectfully using elements of real-world cultures to create a fictional science fantasy epic about the evils of prejudice and colonialism, I'd still rather see that done by people who live those cultures rather than by someone with a degree in them.

(cf Ki Khanga)

(Worth also noting that he started building those worlds as a teenager, which may explain some things about the nature of the sexual content.)

@Shalvenay Do you have any specific material for me to look at?

Shalvenay

00:53

@BESW no, I do not. just was pointed at it in wb.se chat by a fellow chatizen there.

BESW

Oh, worldbuilding.

2

Shalvenay

not that they said it was a good or bad example of anything we've discussed here, though.

hey there @JuneShores

JuneShores

01:12

Hi hi.

BESW

[wave]

trogdor

Hello

Shalvenay

how're things going?

also hey there @ATaco

BESW

@Shalvenay Found a review of one of the books Barker wrote in the setting. I'm going to upgrade "Burroughs levels of lasciviousness" to [runs away screaming]

JuneShores

01:36

Man, I love rewriting game mechanics on a deadline. All the creative ideas come out at once and suddenly I have a solution to a problem I didn't even know I had.

BESW

Cool.

Shalvenay

02:08

hey again @Acts7Seven

kviiri

06:47

So we played a bit of a published 5e adventure, Curse of Strahd, yesterday. We put a lot more effort than usual in character creation yesterday, which got us off on an unusually smooth start.

I sure hope the first session's content doesn't reflect the playstyle of the entire campaign though.

BESW

07:46

Gomphotherium is an extinct genus of proboscidean that lived during the early Miocene in North America.

Tweeted by Extinct_AnimaIs on December 2, 2017 at 6:15 PM

Nerdy tale of @fredhicks from only the past few days. We were discussing Hard & Soft moves to a GM who was trying to wrap his head around A PBTA game. It was a good discussion, and one explanation ended with a caveat that it had a “Fred shaped hole”.

Tweeted by rdonoghue on January 13, 2018 at 4:13 PM

BESW

08:05

I really need to start setting bounties again.

doppelgreener

I did that a bit over hatmas!

BESW

I just ran across an old question that had a LOT of awful answers, and only two that actually related to the situation usefully instead of being generic--and therefore often completely wrong, and only one of those seemed to be really understanding how the system informed the root of the problem.

doppelgreener

I just checked my profile for the first time since a month ago:

BESW

(Out of ten answers: Three deleted, three with negative total votes, and neither of the ones I think are best are accepted and have far fewer votes than the accepted one.)

trogdor

08:27

wow

kviiri

08:48

@BESW I kinda dislike how the accepted answer tends to accrue extra upvotes

BESW

@kviiri I mean, the accepted one looks plausible.

kviiri

@BESW Well yeah, but sometimes the accepted answer is merely good and yet it outshadows an exceptional answer below :)

In other news, my first answer to break +50 on the site is now a rather straightforward DnD 5e rules lookup :)

BESW

But if you've read the system, you'd know that generic GM/player advice inspired by D&D-like experiences is actively Not Helpful.

kviiri

Ah

BESW

26

Q: How to avoid arguments with a player about what "should" happen?

I recently GMed my first real role-playing game in Lady Blackbird with a few friends who are also new to tabletop RPGs, and it went quite well except for a few parts. Here's an example; the basic scenario was (a few parts left out for brevity): Me: "Okay, so you shoot the lock of the door. It...

@kviiri Grats on 50+! It's never on the posts you expect.

May 5 '15 at 9:42, by BESW

Personal examples: this is my most upvoted answer, and this is the answer I'm most proud of.

kviiri

08:58

@BESW Thanks - sadly, I sort of expected it :)

@BESW The latter one looks rather useful for my experiences too. Let's see

BESW

...I just stumbled over my very first Fate character. He's a cat.

Those aspects are great. It took me a long time to really value how great simple aspects are.

kviiri

meow

BESW

09:59

@Frezak [wave] Long time no oracular slug!

Frezak

Season's greetings, hearty new year and all that.

BESW

What's new?

Frezak

NOTHING. HOORAY.

BESW

Frezak

AAAAGH

I'm part-GMing the Reign Of Winter adventure path for Pathfinder, and the first real non-plotline thing we're doing is... to lock a bunch of people at a party and set them on fire, I think.
Is there any fancy easy way to simulate a bunch of wolf-people being set on fire and poisoned inside a building that we can't really see into?
Because just endlessly rolling saves and attacks against doors is going to be time consuming.

Or if there's another system that does that sort of thing easily.
Like, I'm going to steal Vices from Blades In The Dark for when my 4E game fights a fear-eating giant, but I don't have anything for this.

BESW

10:05

....play the last part of The Howling?

Frezak

Hah!

THe place this is happening is called The Howlings.

BESW

Seriously though, it's off screen and the odds are tipped against them, how about just narrating the carnage?

Frezak

They're not even as bad as werewolves. They're... magical ice wolves that get to become human-shaped. ANd they have slaves? And somehow they're having a party hosted by the Great Gatsby of ice wolf people.

BESW

Or, every round 1d6 wolves die and 1d4-1 wolves escape, until none are left.

Frezak

Hmmm.
Yeah, I kinda like that. Keep drawing wolves out from a pool. THe pool is a burning house.

What about you? Been doing any cool things recently?

BESW

10:15

My RPGs aren't as regular as they used to be, but last session we played Honey Heist and stole a beehive haunted by the ghost of Abraham Lincoln. The session before that we played InSpectres and had a rich, selfish client hire us to stop whatever it was that kept him from sleeping every Christmas Eve.

And whenever I have a good bit of creative brainpower to spare I work on hacking the horror out of Cthulhu Confidential so Trogdor and I can play twosies.

Quentin

@BESW … and half the wolves are on fire and frenzying

Frezak

That bear thing looks amazing.

BESW

Oh, and I don't know if you were around when I started Long Live the King of Monsters!.

Frezak

Huh. No, I hadn't seen that.

BESW

10:32

If you get an opportunity to playtest it, I'd love more feedback.

Frezak

Having the person landing the killing blow on Supermega Hydrazoid get to be king sounds like the most interesting version to me, at first glance.

I'll see if I can get some people to give it a shot.
I do want to try the LANCER mecha RPG from the guy that does Kill Six Billion Demons.

BESW

10:52

Jackie Morris, artist, illustrator and writer living and working in Wales #womensart

Tweeted by womensart1 on January 15, 2018 at 8:56 AM

doppelgreener

11:26

@BESW Is this a bronze badger?

BESW

Maaaaybe.

doppelgreener

Speaking of badgers:

I like that in seven and a half years of this site operating, the Tenacious and Unsung Hero badgers have never been seen.

3

BESW

12:33

@nitsua60 Anything come of that Surgadores thing?

nitsua60

@BESW Not yet. I sent the colleague the link, then our river flooded its banks and froze in place, so we're in the middle of a scramble to "evacuate" campus and close down school for the week. In other news, I just got a week's vacation =)

BESW

Ahah.

Con...grats?

eimyr

Hi folks

BESW

[wave]

eimyr

how's y'all?

nitsua60

12:40

@BESW Yeah, that's about the right sentiment.

kviiri

Hiya

BESW

@eimyr Umm. Honey Heist is fun.

eimyr

I was thinking I should run it at 7hills

I still haven't decided what to run.

nitsua60

@eimyr Easy 3 miles to start the week. That's my plan.

(I never go hard on a Monday.)

eimyr

@nitsua60 The only way to make me run is to chase me with lethal intent while I'm unarmed.

Or be a leaving bus.

nitsua60

13:10

That's a reasonable stance. Comports more-closely to the evolutionary imperative, I suppose =)

eimyr

It also recognizes one's shortcomings while prioritising survival.

Adam

13:42

First gold badge! Yay! I'm part of the club now!

3

nitsua60

@Adam Congratulations!

NautArch

@Adam welcome, you can pick up your official club sandwich at the cafeteria

I seem to be unable to update my home windows 7 box :(. Nor can I update my Emby server.

eimyr

@Adam the badger was inside you all along.

NautArch

running on that same machine. Not good.

@eimyr just waiting for it's moment to claw its way free?

eimyr

@NautArch I was going for a "you don't need a magic ring" moment, but of course, it went Alien.

NautArch

13:52

@eimyr Ah, my bad. Well, Adam may or may not be an illithid, so it seemed somewhat relevant.

Adam

@NautArch I can guarantee that I most certainly do not own a brain with legs as a pet.

NautArch

@Adam deception against insight?

d20

Dice Service

14

Adam

d20

Dice Service

4

NautArch

13:59

lies!

kviiri

@Adam I own a brain with a dog as a pet.

Adam

maybe it just confirms that I definitely am not lying

kviiri

Well, not actually.

Rubiksmoose

14:15

@Adam Yay! I'm still working towards mine lol. I've only been active for 3 months though lol

Ryan

14:26

Hey all, I'm trying to figure out Bestow Curse. Most articles seem to think its the most amazing spell Bards get but I don't know -- its hard to gauge what alternative effects would be aligned power wise. And then its also a "Touch" spell which sounds hard to execute. Any of you have opinions on the spell?

Adam

@Rubiksmoose It will come if you're active enough, and you're definitely active enough

doppelgreener

@BESW Speaking of which, what kind of GM framework do you think you brought to the Honey Heist game you ran? It seemed a little bit Great Ork Gods-ish, or maybe it's just The Way BESW Runs Freeform For Fun And Great Good.

NautArch

@Ryan which bard subclass?

Ryan

College of Whispers @NautArch

NautArch

@Ryan Do you get into melee battles a lot?

Adam

14:28

Just based on a cursory glance at the bard spell list, I'd argue that hypnotic pattern is categorically better.

Ryan

@NautArch the group does but I tend to stay to the back lines. Think last game was the first time I pulled out my rapier and mixed it up since we started playing

NautArch

@Ryan One of the biggest things it does is give disadvantage against you on attacks. but if you're not on the front line, there's better ways to use your concentration. The plusses are that it's not charm based so creatures immune to charm are still susceptible (unlike hypnotic pattern...which i think is generally a better spell).

The other is that if you have other players who utilize ability checks against NPCs (illusionists, etc.)

if you do, that gives Bestow Curse some more power.

Ryan

I use ability checks out of combat all the time - but seems like why cast a level 3 spell that they could wisdom save to give them disadvantage against charisma checks

Adam

An extra 1d8 necrotic damage on a hit with spells and attacks is also pretty nice, but I would argue it would be more effective to learn Hex if you wanted that.

NautArch

@Adam Would also agree - but the only way to get hex i think is magical secrets/feat/warlock dip.

Adam

14:32

Indeed

nitsua60

Mitch Hedberg - Club Sandwich

►

NautArch

@nitsua60 I always think of that bit

Adam

Hex also gives you the "disadvantage on ability checks" boon though, so it's basically double dipping. And you can swap it around after the fact, and it's a lower level spell, and it doesn't require any saves

Ryan

nah I don't want to multiclass at all

just trying to figure out my 3rd level bard spells since i just hit 5.

thinking Fear and Tongues

Adam

In terms of group wide crowd control, Fear or Hypnotic pattern are good choices. Tongues is useful if you frequently talk to/with people who don't speak your language, or you frequently scout/spy on creatures you don't understand.

But if that hasn't been coming up much, I would leave it to a class that can prepare tongues when you need it, rather than get locked into it for a whole level

NautArch

14:38

@Adam Fear is very cool, but if you can get Hypnotic Pattern to hit, it's amazing. It is a DM killer, though. If creatures are charmable, it can turn an encounter into a cake walk.

Adam

DM should use hypnotic pattern on you too then.

NautArch

@Adam many have tried. Counterspell stops that shenanigan pretty quick :)

Ryan

I like Fear more for the visuals :D

Adam

Then the enemy should have counterspell too, and use it just a liberally as you guys do.

Ryan

Fear goes well with Words of Terror for dramatic effect

Peter Cooper Jr.

14:46

5E should come with a warning, that if you have your BBEG roll Death Saving Throws, you may end up constantly rolling 20s for them and end up with your boss encounter going very late into the night.

Ryan

ooh Clairvoyance actually sounds nifty too

Rubiksmoose

@NautArch gotta make sure to avoid hitting your teammates of course though. That is the part I have found tricky often.

NautArch

@Adam Gotta have multiple casters like we do :) But yeah. I've learned counterspell is kind of annoying for eveyrone involved.

@Rubiksmoose yeah, its a good lesson to DMs not to be in fireball formation :)

Adam

15:24

@NautArch Or you could stay out of range. Something like hypnotic pattern has twice the range of counterspell

NautArch

@Adam That too. At your tables, do you see counterspelling spoiling battles? At mine, I've seen it either it can ruin a DMs day, or the DM has to counter it with additional spellcasters that then just make it unfun for the players.

I'm not sure counterspell adds fun at this point.

Adam

@NautArch My players don't use counterspell. I'm not sure they know it even exists. One of them can't use it, the other isn't high enough level to have it, and the last one remembers spells he liked from 1st and 2nd edition and so doesn't care about it

kviiri

I think counterspell is boring in the sense that it enforces status quo, while change is when things become interesting.

...in a very abstract way, at least :P

But I think @NautArch has a point.

There's other spells that are cool in-universe but that just don't work very well around the table. Anything that involves summoning creatures, anything with complicated effects necessitating bookkeeping and so.

Adam

I was a player in one game where a key pivotal story moment was interrupted when a player cast counterspell when the BBEG did something remotely magical of the DM's design. It was...awkward. The DM ended up hand waving it away as "not a spell" and let the player keep his spell slot, then apologized. Then we had the best boss battle of that campaign.

NautArch

@kviiri I've actually not cast animate objects because I don't feel like managing 10 objects.

kviiri

15:31

@NautArch Yeah, and I took Haste instead of Slow for my bard only because the GM has enough stuff to remember without the rather complex mechanics of this spell.

Well ok, that was only part of the reason.

Adam

Alternately, you could purposefully choose the suboptimal larger but fewer in number objects

kviiri

The other part was that I generally prefer "surefire" effects, and beneficial spells tend to have those while hexes can be saved against.

NautArch

@Adam I am not generally suboptimal choice player :)

Ryan

Would an alternative Bestow Curse of "Doubles the duration of spells and effects by you on this target" be fair? probably need to work on specific wording of that but basically to make Charm, Friends, Words of Terror, Suggestion, Phantasmal Force, Fear, etc... last twice as long.

NautArch

@kviiri I think Slow is vastly underrated.

Adam

15:33

@NautArch Then this case would be an exception, not general :)

NautArch

@Ryan I'm not sure you'd generally see a good use for that. Most combats end well in advance of spell completion.

kviiri

@Adam I think this is the way to go. It's not an easy way until the people around the table are cool with the idea of the game being common property, instead of just the GM's or GM vs players.

@Ryan For out-of-combat spells, the duration is often flexible anyway - I'm not sure how pedantically you track time outside the init order. And for in-combat spells, they tend to last for one minute which is enough for most combat anyway.

NautArch

@Adam For a custom BBEG, that's an easy fix. But if they were a spellcaster, I'd probably be upset initially that something that seems like a spell isn't. But casting counterspoell before the DM has even said "I'm casting a spell" is definitely an annoying habit.

kviiri

It's a matter of paradigm differences. Some players (including GMs) want to see everything that happens in the world in the terms of documented mechanics, eg. spells in the PHB using slots like other casters, and others are more lax with that stuff especially out of combat.

Adam

@NautArch Indeed. The player had done it before, but the DM was inconsistent with how he handled it. For example, we came across a group of evil bros testing out some new magic gauntlets which let you shoot flames from your hands. (similar to scorching ray mixed with lightning bolt, but not a spell - just a magical effect). Using counterspell on those caused them to explode and ended the threat immediately.

nitsua60

15:41

@Adam Hypnotic pattern is categorically better than almost everything, IMO.

NautArch

@nitsua60 I definitely agree. The only reduction in it's power is the limitations for being able to see it and not immune to charm. But when you need to shut down one or more creatures, it's pretty amazing. Hardest part is for the DM to decide if their allies know what's going on enough to go and nudge them awake.

Which i've generally found to not make sense, but done in order to make the encounter not just a kill zone.

nitsua60

@NautArch my AL table has a "gentleman's agreement" to just pretend that spell doesn't exist. Players don't choose it, I don't use it.

NautArch

@Adam whoa, that's a pretty serious result of counterspell.

@nitsua60 I'd be cool with that.

Adam

@NautArch In a world where magic is a thing, seeing a magic user make some pretty colors appear and then all my friends stop moving would certainly lead me to one of two conclusions: they are charmed and I need to try something to wake them up, or that magic user needs to die and that should fix the problem

NautArch

@Adam Assuming your NPCs have intelligence enough to know that.

Well, the latter is the more likely decision (in my opinion)

Adam

15:46

I think it's simple enough to deduce that anything that isn't a beast could make that call.

But I also think that too many people play the bad guys way too stupid.

@NautArch It was. There was silence around the table for a solid minute. I think the first thing out of my mouth was: "Really?"

It made total sense to the DM since he knew the backstory for that item, and he was trying to reward our creativity I think. But it just ended up being kind of unbelievable.

kviiri

This question and its answers explain a bit on how Dungeon World handles this - it explicitly makes clear that the workings of a PC's magic don't necessarily generalize to anything else in the world. Similar to other mechanics, player characters are unique.

Adam

I don't like that at all.

kviiri

Why not?

Adam

I don't like the idea that you can't generalize anything. I'm certainly fine with players and NPC having similar but different abilities, but I don't like the idea that I can't make any assumptions at all about somebody else. It's just not the kind of background I imagine in my whatever fantasy brain world.

NautArch

@Adam I fully agree. Bad guy tactics are generally not very good. But it also works the other way in that tactics for dumber creatures are also not done well. If I have to try and play my polymorphed creature like an animal (but who knows who his friends are), then the DM should also try and control those creatuers in a similar way.

kviiri

15:51

@Adam I didn't say that you can't make any assumptions. You just can't make assumptions about a NPC described as a "wizard" functioning like a PC wizard would.

NautArch

@Adam I dunno, if we're giving the same name to something, I'd expect it to work similarly.

and unless it's been explicitly said in world building that it doesn't, that's an unfair assumption to make for the PCs.

kviiri

@NautArch That's a bit problematic, given that DnD class names cover a rather wide spectrum of cool villainous roles.

Adam

@NautArch Exactly. I'd expect my wizard to work basically the same as any other wizard. With the only exceptions being maybe that he's learned more than me, or that he took some different path of specialization which gives him different juice.

Rubiksmoose

@kviiri Wow this is definitely an odd one for me to wrap my head around. I'd have to dive further into DW I think to really get a feel for it, but I'm not sure I fully understand what is happening here.

NautArch

@kviiri can you give an example? Are you talking subclass differences?

kviiri

15:54

@NautArch The party marches into the Dark Keep of Evilfell to confront the orcish sorcerer Grimhack. Except we can't call her a sorcerer because she doesn't work like a sorcerer would. Nor a warlock, nor a wizard, etc.

NautArch

@kviiri Then I wouldn't use Sorcerer. If you use that word, I'd assume you are talking about a Sorcerer. If it's a custom BBEG or a different monster, I'd use a different. word so that there isn't confusion.

Frezak

You have to keep inventing names. THE SPELLOMANCER. Arcanesman. Magic-boy.

kviiri

@NautArch So we end up with something like Grimhack the <Inscrutable Orcish name> which is awkward, or we have to tool her to work like a class would which might not be desirable for encounter balance or coolness, or something stupid like Grimhack the Magician which is just silly.

NautArch

@kviiri Why not just Grimhack? Why add the qualifier that is misleading?

kviiri

@NautArch You'll need the qualifier at some point or be very awkward. A NPC questmaster can't simply describe who Grimhack is without some terminology.

Frezak

15:57

Because baddies have to have titles to sound cool.

NautArch

I guess I just see a LOT of problems in the world (both at tables and away) are because of incorrect assumptions and expectations. If you're purposefully creating a situation that would allow that to happen, then you have to expect people to get upset when the expectation you set wasn't met.

Adam

Alternately, the NPCs or whatever sources the player's first consult to learn about Grimhack are wrong. The source was too stupid or didn't care enough or was actively misinformed and as a result uses the wrong name. Then, with some research, the players can learn what Grimhack really is.

kviiri

@NautArch I think it's the expectation that "every wizard is a DnD wizard" is the problem here. It just doesn't make much sense.

NautArch

@Adam That definitely works for me. I was thinking of something similar that his name was given to him by those not 'in-the-know'. But if that's the case, then give opportunities for the PCs to find that out before they meet him. Otherwise, you really are just being intentionally misleading.

kviiri

Especially if we don't assume that classes are a thing in-universe.

@Rubiksmoose I don't think it's that complex. The bottom line is that nothing has the same mechanics as the PCs do.

NautArch

15:59

@kviiri Except I think it does make sense. The universe we're dealing with is defined by the books. That's what the players expect and have to be held to themselves. DMs do have more freedom to create, but to do so without any warning may create frustration that was generally unnecessary.

Frezak

Doesn't it say in the book that the player's classes are unique in the world? i thought I'd read something to that tune...

kviiri

@NautArch I dunno, do players really expect that? I've encountered players who assume all magic is one of the PHB spells and use slots and such, but never really anyone who assumed "wizard" means literally the NPC having class levels in wizard.

NautArch

@kviiri Maybe it's just me :) But names have meaning. And if players are assuming the name has a meaning but the DM is using it differently, I think it'll cause more problems than it solves to enter that arena.

kviiri

@NautArch Well, Dungeon World averts this issue by being explicit about the names not having a meaning :)

NautArch

But when I hear wizard, I think Wizard - with all of the things that go along with it.

@kviiri For DW it works, then. BUt I don't think it does for 5e - which does have meanings with names.

I mean, if I said you were fighting an Orc and it came around the corner on 6 legs with tentacles, I think you might be pretty annoyed.

kviiri

16:05

@NautArch Does it, really? It still has the paradigm difference I mentioned earlier - some people assume every spell to be a spell defined in the book, others are cool with "free magic" for villains. I see an unsolved problem there!

I'm also quite sure that the NPC monsters in Volo's aren't built according to the PC rules to the classes they represent.

NautArch

@kviiri Right, but then that's a question of homerules vs raw (unless you're counting creature abilities, but I don't think we are.)

@kviiri they may not be built as a class-level, but the mechanics are those of them I believe.

kviiri

@NautArch Nah, I'm just checking. There's similarities but also differences.

NautArch

@kviiri In terms of spellcasting (other than how many spells/level, etc.) is there a mechanical difference in the way they function?

kviiri

@NautArch Not in spellcasting that I see, at least yet, but we were discussing in broader terms weren't we?

Eg. the NPC bard has a taunt ability

Interestingly, they seem to have remembered to account for expertise!

Mostly they're pretty similar though.

NautArch

@kviiri Hmm, maybe? I was mainly talking about mechanics. If it's a Wizard, i'd expect them to be casting spells like everyone else. What spells, abilities, etc. could be more fluid, but I see your point :)

@kviiri does it work like Cutting WOrds?

kviiri

16:12

@NautArch Naa, it's a bonus action to create disadvantage on ~everything temporarily.

NautArch

@kviiri wow. that's pretty cool. Id like my bard to have that :)

kviiri

Warlord NPC has legendary actions!

NautArch

@kviiri there is no warlord PC

Yuuki

If you up-cast Cutting Words at a 9th-level spell, does it turn into a world-breaking spell?

kviiri

@NautArch Isn't it a Fighter subclass?

NautArch

16:13

@Yuuki it's not a spell.

Yuuki

@NautArch But if you could, you could invert it on itself and turn it from Cutting Words into Cutting Worlds.

NautArch

@kviiri UA maybe? Not standard.

kviiri

@NautArch Huh, I must've confused this with 4e.

It's its own class in 4e though.

A rather cool one, too.

NautArch

@nitsua60 I didn't even think that this was a shopping question. But it definitely is as-written.

kviiri

I sort of wish I had played more 4e back in the day

Frezak

16:22

I'm a big 4E fan. I wish WOTC hadn't abandoned support for the offline tools.

kviiri

I've been drafting a replacement 4e for myself, with a tactical wire-fu feel. Lots of fast-paced combat with minimal bookkeeping.

Frezak

I'm far from exhausting all use from what they left.

I especially like the fact that it's so easy to improv for. Making monsters and picking task DCs is really easy.

kviiri

My friends don't really like DnD 4e though. I think it's in large part because our game with it was otherwise not very good

We started playing a published 5e adventure yesterday, something I haven't tried before, but so far I'm a bit skeptical. We did a lot of this meta stuff (character creation and all) very well so I'm a bit disappointed that the actual gameplay seems a bit unpalatable to me. I hope it'll change.

Frezak

I'm part-Dming, Part-playing a Pathfinder Adventure Path, and we're all very surprised how much the modules expect us to be... sociopathic murderhobos. As if talking was never a viable solution.

kviiri

We've mostly been poking our noses at secret cabins and drawers and trying to make choices about whether the author of the scenario intended the stuff there to be looted.

It's the worst kind of metagaming to me... having to think about whether something's intended to be done or not. Feels so opaque.

Yuuki

16:40

@Frezak Pathfinder does derive from 3.5e.

@kviiri Judging from community sentiment regarding 3(.5)e, 4e, and 5e, it seems like 4e is the one that would benefit most from being run as a part of a hybrid/gestalt system.

Like leaving 4e for combat and something else for non-combat.

Although having never played 4e, I can't really say that with any certainty.

kviiri

Yeah, that's one option for sure

I think it's fine on its own as long as there's the consensus that the game's about combat.

4e does have the skill challenge mechanic too, but IIRC that is one of those "GM eyes only" mechanics that the players shouldn't know about. To preserve immersion or somesuch.

Frezak

I never liked the Skill Challenge rules. Maybe because I never learnt how to use it seamlessly, but it always felt clunky and awkward.

kviiri

I don't have enough experience to say, really.

I am, in principle, fond of the idea of there being rules for non-combat situations too, but it's just too big of a deal to stuff into a single rule.

Frezak

A skill Challenge seems like a weird way to try to force players into some kind of montage?

kviiri

I don't really recall the specifics

Yesterday I felt DnD 5e really needs a mechanic for time.

Rubiksmoose

16:46

@kviiri I didn't say it was complex. But a very different approach than I am used to so it is difficult for me to imagine how it works at the moment.

Yuuki

@kviiri I wonder where's the line between "the rules should cover this" and "the DM should have some creative freedom".

kviiri

@Rubiksmoose Have you ever played Dungeon World or some other Apocalypse World derivative? It might help to understand something more about the paradigm of the systems in question.

@Yuuki Well, I've played tabletop RPGs with varying intensity for years, and I don't recall a single time where the GM's creative freedom has worked for enforcing a sense of urgency in DnD. So I think something should change.

Rubiksmoose

@kviiri Nope. That was kind of my point. I wasn't knocking the system or anything, I'm just saying that it is very different from what I am used to and thus hard for me to fully comprehend right now.

kviiri

@Rubiksmoose Yeah, then I understand better what you mean. One of the big things in Apocalypse World and many of its derivatives is exactly doing away with the "symmetry" between PCs and NPCs, and I guess it can feel foreign if one's not used to it.

Rubiksmoose

@kviiri I'm actually pretty interested in AW and I really hope I get a chance to play it soon.

kviiri

16:54

@Rubiksmoose Oooh! It's a great system :)

I hope you have as much fun with it as I have!

Anyway, regarding the passage of time, the problem isn't exactly simple. One has to convey to the players the passage of time, the Bad Stuff happening as the result of passing time, some idea on how much time they can spend without Bad Stuff happening so they can make informed choices... too much freedom for the GM here will feel arbitrary to the players.

Yuuki

@kviiri "Your party hears drums sounding... in the deep..."

kviiri

@Yuuki Yea, that's one way to do it

But it's really hard to convey all the needed information to the players about the scene for them to make good choices

Yuuki

That single sentence actually works really well. "Drums sounding" obviously means bad guys are coming but also so many bad guys that drums are needed to muster them and thus you should run and not fight. "In the deep" means they're really far away so you have time to escape.

I never really felt that Tolkien was a good writer, but that line's pretty good.

kviiri

It doesn't convey how much time I'd have left. Do I have time to search the cabinets one more time? Or look for a secret door? (especially since I don't really have a good approximation on how long does it take to ransack some drawers)

I did try the time pool thing proposed by AngryGM in one of my DnD 5e games, it worked almost too well. My players were so scared of having to fight bugbear guards that were supposed to return to the house they were looting in an hour that they left many places without a proper search, which is sort of what I intended.

The bugbears wouldn't have been that bad for them, tho.

Yuuki

17:09

@kviiri But they're bugs that are also bears that are also bugs.

That's terrifying.

kviiri

A thorough search of a room or a couple of small ones was ten minutes, and they knew the bugbears were expected to be back after an hour, so they had to choose which places to check and which not, if they wanted to avoid the bugbears. They were out in half an hour, with the cult in the basement dead.

They found about a half of the secrets too!

@Yuuki But they're also goblins, which makes them instantly less horrible :)

Yuuki

Trying to make a goblin-Linsanity joke here and I'm not making much headway.

Something about adventurer's guilds hyping up a goblin?

I dunno.

kviiri

17:31

Goblins are the best tho.

The Oracle

18:10

0

Q: What do to with semi-opinion questions in dnd-5e?

I am a little uncomfortable with some dnd-5e questions. I would guess what I am going to address in this question might be an issue with any other RPG which is still in the process of being updated/improved, but I will restrict myself only to dnd-5e; as it is the most obvious example on the site ...

discussion dnd-5e

kviiri

18:45

Another day wasted away mostly coping with poor software design decisions made by others...

Yuuki

19:10

@kviiri Is there any other kind of software development?

I am, of course, including "past me" as part of "others".

kviiri

19:26

@Yuuki Past me would make a great villain.

"I may be gone, but my memory lives on..."

Yuuki

@kviiri I don't know, Past Me is a naive idiot while Future Me is a condescending jerk.

Peter Cooper Jr.

There's nothing quite like the feeling of thinking "Who wrote this garbage?", and upon scrolling to the top thinking "And who wrote my name at the top as the author?"

Adam

@kviiri Sounds a bit like inFamous

kviiri

@Yuuki Past Me screams at Current Me dramatically. "I made you! WHY DO YOU REBEL?"

@Adam Ah yes!

Yuuki

@Adam Isn't that more Future Me?

kviiri

19:28

@Yuuki Future Me will not remember me kindly.

Yuuki

Although I guess from Future Me's point of view in inFamous, Past Me is the villain?

Adam

I think Future Me's POV is that "Past Me is a naive idiot"

kviiri

More like Hero Antagonist? He was trying to spar Past Me into fighting shape or somesuch.

Surprisingly, I think Drunk Me occasionally makes really good calls.

NautArch

my god, @nitsua60, I'm giving your argument on JC tweet validity

kviiri

He's like a wild but well-intentioned child who knows when stuff's serious.

doppelgreener

19:37

3

Q: How do I decide how many hit dice a custom creature has?

I am planning to create some custom monsters for my games. I know how to determine a monster's average hit points, however I don't know how you determine the decomposition in hit dice. For example if I create something similar to a Goblin I am able to tell it should have 7 hit points but I don't...

dnd-5e monster-design

IIRC the DMG has a section regarding this. — Rob Rose 2 hours ago

@RobRose Would you mind posting an answer recommending that section, and perhaps summarising the gist of what it means for the goblins? People are meant to provide solutions in answers and not comments on this stack, so that's answer material. — doppelgreener ♦ 1 min ago

^ the above is an open invitation to anyone.

(I am a grump at people who provide the solution in comments, and if there is a canonical answer it should be in answers)

Rubiksmoose

@doppelgreener @Icyfire looks like he already references the appropriate section though?

doppelgreener

@Rubiksmoose He references TheAngryGM referencing that article, but we could also have an answer that cuts out the middleman.

... on that note though I guess I'll delete the comment.

Rubiksmoose

@doppelgreener OK. He does reference the DMG a bit, but I agree it looks like a bit too much leaning on another source.

doppelgreener

It's fair to say since the quote itself in turn clearly references the DMG, so I guess I will refine that offer: if anyone thinks there could be a better answer provided by going directly to the DMG, I invite them to go for that.

Rubiksmoose

20:05

0

A: How do I decide how many hit dice a custom creature has?

The DMG outlines the process for creating monsters as a DM. There are two ways to decide how much HP your monster has: Method 1: The CR Table You can start with the monster's expected challenge rating and use the Monster Statistics by Challenge Rating table to determine an appropriate n...

Well I added mine. The value added here is that there are actually two methods called out in the DMG whereas IcyFire's only really covers one of them.

nitsua60

20:16

@NautArch the thing is, if it could be explained in a dozen or two words you'd have done so on the first instance. Anything tweeted at JC and worth answering is extremely likely to be inappropriate to answer on Twitter, by construction.

Also, no need to deify me. I've got enough self-image problems without that: I'm a last child.

Rubiksmoose

@nitsua60 Devil's advocate here: but even the best designers are not perfect. It is entirely possible that things were overlooked and/or not considered that can be fixed with only a short point of clarification

NautArch

@nitsua60 I was going to make a JC joke, but decided against.

@Rubiksmoose the problem is when there are conflicting responses - which there are. When you're giving off-the-cuff answers, it doesn't matter that you are the #1 guy. What matters is that you aren't necessarily thinking it through in comparison to the other off-the-cuff answers you've given.

BESW

@Yuuki Somebody here in chat has talked about using Fate for non-combat play in a 4e-for-combat campaign.

Rubiksmoose

@NautArch I'm definitely aware of conflicts and such. I'm not going to get into the full argument. There are plenty of valid complaints about his rulings. I just don't think the argument that "most questions asked on Twitter are too complicated/involved to be answered there" is a valid one

BESW

@Frezak I used a player-made hack by some forum person called Slayer0, and it worked MUCH better. The default 4e skill challenge design is actively self-sabotaging. Like, they say "Increase this number to increase the difficulty" and it actually reduces the difficulty.

NautArch

20:27

@Rubiksmoose Ah. Yeah, that's a different concern.

I cite JC in a lot of my answers here, he's still 'resolved' a lot of issues.

with regard to natural weapon reach, I'm totally fine with his answer.

Frezak

@BESW Yeah? I'll have a look for it, then.

Rubiksmoose

@NautArch Yeah I think actually a good majority of his answers are answered quite well even on Twitter. Certainly there are those that could and should get full length responses and official errata (it would be nice to see the latter for all of them but I digress), but most that I see are very helpful and good.

BESW

Please do not play devil's advocate unless you have passed the bar and are currently representing Satan in a court of law.

Rubiksmoose

@BESW :)

Yuuki

@BESW I think calling Crawford the Devil might be considered slander.

nitsua60

20:33

@Rubiksmoose I didn't quite say that. I said most that are "worth answering" need something more substantive and thought-out than his tweets tend to be. From what I've seen the majority of the questions tweeted at him could be answered be "please see p.X" or "please see errata" or "please see Sage Advice." Take those out and you're looking at things that need actual explaining, which he's not seemed to be great at using Twitter to do.

Rubiksmoose

@nitsua60 eh. I didn't mean to misrepresent your argument, but that is in fact what I disagree with. But whatever, I am less anti-crawford than most on here. But I am certainly not blind to his flaws.

nitsua60

(Of course, there are so many subjective lines being drawn there that it's nigh-impossible to say it's not true for me, and probably a waste of space.)

Rubiksmoose

@nitsua60 The Crawford War will last for as long as he is at WotC lol

nitsua60

And I try not to come off as anti-Crawford, but rather anti-Crawford-tweeting-clarifications. Grognard out!

(Gotta run for a bit.)

NautArch

@nitsua60 club drop.

Adam

20:48

I'm sure people would've asked help from Gygax and Arneson over twitter had that been around at the time too.

BESW

21:39

Character art: Sada, armless rogue.

I assume she stabs you if you make a "mostly 'armless" joke.

Mike Q

It's just a flesh wound, no need to feel Sada 'bout it.

Yuuki

One wonders how she manages to scarf down food with no arms.

Mike Q

Is she immune to being disarmed? Is she proficient in unarmed combat?

And I hope she doesn't stab me. No need to get up in arms over an armless joke.

Yuuki

@MikeQ Well, she’s clearly not immune to being disarmed.

In fact, she might be more vulnerable to being disarmed than the average rogue considering she’s still disarmed to this day.

BESW

If I were running a D&D-like game and someone wanted to play her, I might just let them describe it as flavor except in extreme circumstances.

Mike Q

21:56

@Yuuki But how can you disarm that which has no arms?

Yuuki

@MikeQ But rises again, harder and stronger?

trogdor

22:45

@BESW lol

The Oracle

23:45

1

Q: Why does the "question edited" notification redirects to he Desktop website even when on mobile?

(As this is my first question on meta, feel free to advise if it is not appropriate here) I have recently noticed that, on the mobile version of rpg.stackexchange, all notifications (red or green) redirect to the appropriate mobile page... except for the "question edited" notification (which, wh...

bug editing notifications

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