TRPG General Chat

2:03 PM

@doppelspooker So, um, do you think I could merge two of these in a reasonable way? like Investigate and Knowledge?

@KorvinStarmast I think it would make more sense if the Player's Handbook and/or the DMG were more up-front about what purpose the system is meant to serve.

KorvinStarmast

@Yuuki It's been in the game since Arneson's Blackmoor before D&D was published. See my answer to @HeyICanChan's question on PvP in early RPG.

@kviiri I don't think they wanted to spend pages and pages on philosophy and moralizing. IMO, the design space was bounded by "this needs to be a table by table thing if it's going to work" strikes me as a good decision, given how clunky Alighment has been since Gygax infamous graph.

kviiri

2:20 PM

@KorvinStarmast They could've saved pages (well, a single page) by leaving it out.

I mean, it doesn't really do anything much in 5e anymore.

KorvinStarmast

@Kviiri We'll need to agree to disagree on that. It figured in our first campaign, and we made good use of it. The game needs to be more than its mechanics.

kviiri

@KorvinStarmast What use did you make of it that was dependent on the system as introduced in the book?

KorvinStarmast

Further that point, there's a powerful literary force in story telling, particularly of the fantasy and swords and sorcery genre, as well as some science fiction, that is tied to the "existential struggle" background of a given story.

kviiri

Sure, but that's a point that's possible to get through without making alignment a "pseudo-mechanic" isn't it?

KorvinStarmast

@kviiri To repeat my point that I just made: this game is more than mechanics. All of us in that group, besides my nephew, have been playing the game since the books in a white box. We are used to alignment having an impact on our characters' story.

eimyr

2:29 PM

@KorvinStarmast I think I disagree on the last statement, namely "game needs to be more than its mechanics". I agree that's the reality in games as of now and foreseeable future, but the ideal to strive for, to me, is a game with mechanics completely encompassing the gaming experience.

KorvinStarmast

@eimyr feel free to disagree. The game was built to be far more than its mechanics.

@Kviiri My cleric (Thor) took our bard to my temple in to get (and pay for) a greater restoration due to his being victim of a night hag. We thought he was "neutral." but when the clerics began to prep for the spell, they simply told me "no amount of money will we accept to heal an evil person."

This got us working on how DM and the bard had been doing some private stuff via dreams due to a magic item we had found and that he was wearing, which had cursed him but which curse he had not yet shaken off.

We ended up with a mini question to find a temple where our money was good enough to cast that spell.

doppelspooker

I am not sure that's meaningful to say -- games are pretty much always built in a way they're more than their mechanics, in any reading of that I can interpret. Myself, I'm happier with dealing with concepts of good & evil in games -- and do so somewhat often, such as in Masters of Umdaar -- but I feel D&D's particular approach to an alignment system would create more of a problem than an assistant to that.

eimyr

@KorvinStarmast I might have missed the fact that you're talking about a specific game, if you are. If so, then I have no comment.

KorvinStarmast

We also had to deal with the evil item which, due to the curse, the bard refused to part with. (He played it to the hilt, it was some fine RP).

doppelspooker

The game could say "so there's good and evil" without also codifying them as objective properties of the universe, and there's a bit of an issue that it did so -- and separately also issues that it got codified as a personality mechanic at the same time.

KorvinStarmast

2:34 PM

@Eimyr yeah, we are discussing D&D. @doppelspooker Yeah, IMO the old Chaos/neutral/Law was enough. I thing Gygax overcomplicated things.

doppelspooker

@KorvinStarmast that's cool.

NautArch

@KorvinStarmast and i guess a remove curse wasn't enough to remove it?

but cool that it wasnt just a "no", but a miniquest.

KorvinStarmast

@doppelspooker in our OD&D campaign, we ran afoul of an order of Paladins who were lawful ... as in Spanish INquisition Lawful! (Now quite Jordan's White Cloaks, but similar). They took a dim view of we adventurers, even though we had a lawful (and really good) Paladin in our midst! A rich campaign with a great DM.

kviiri

@KorvinStarmast But I don't think it's fair to criticize or praise a game based on how your table, my table, or any particular table adapts rules in ways that are not obvious to someone who picks up the book for the first time. That's your success, not DnD's.

KorvinStarmast

@nautarch No, it was not, I discovered. We had removed the item from an enchanted chest that had an abjuration on it. How we got the necklace off of him is another story, but thankfully my nephew's rogue had kept the chest ...

NautArch

2:37 PM

@KorvinStarmast that sounds like a pretty awesome storyline.

KorvinStarmast

@kviiri As I said, the game is and has always been more than its mechanics. That's a feature, not a bug, and I refer you again to my reference to the Arneson interview. You can read it at kobold press' web site.

kviiri

@KorvinStarmast We're speaking of two different games here. The DnD you play != the DnD I play != DnD in general.

KorvinStarmast

@NautArch Yeah, our DM was pretty darned good at that and then RL broke it up. sadness Kids, family, and scheduling problems due to two of our group changing jobs...

doppelspooker

I'm of two minds here: one mind is just going with the flow of the discussion, and happy to talk about whatever, and is going "wow, that's a cool story." (And it's right!) The other mind is stuck about a page-scroll up, going "yeah, but you don't actually need the good/evil objective cosmology mechanics for any of that, and if I was trying to do similar I'd likely find them more an impediment than an assistance"

NautArch

in general, the idea of alignment and morality is very kludgy. It's hard enough understanding it in the real world.

KorvinStarmast

2:39 PM

@Kviiri If you want a purely mechanics based game, there are CRPG's a plenty to enjoy. :)

@NautArch 100% agree.

kviiri

@KorvinStarmast Oh, I would be happy with a game that would work well when picked up by a total newcomer to the RPG scene. Not just for decades-old veterans who have all the important stuff figured out already.

KorvinStarmast

@doppelspooker It's a useful touch point for narrative structure.

doppelspooker

@KorvinStarmast I do not think Kviiri is suggesting that the game must necessarily be exclusively mechanics. (And I don't think its alignment system is exclusively the only thing that is the difference between it being mechanics, so I'm not sure where this direction of response is coming from.)

NautArch

DOn't know if anyone remembers the story i told when i was DMing where I tried to incorporate more of it in, and my players balked hard. It just isn't worth it - there are other ways (as doppel said) to incorporate those effects or gameplay desires.

KorvinStarmast

@kviiri 5e has gone back to the softer edged alignment approach, which 1e through 3.5e didn't do as well.

kviiri

2:43 PM

@KorvinStarmast Sure, I understand that - but the book itself doesn't say it. It gives the GM and players almost nothing to do with alignment, doesn't set any expectation or so regarding it. Which results in all sorts of wonkiness in tables that try to play the game by the book without having a senior player tell them they don't actually need alignment.

Or telling them how it should be used, I guess.

KorvinStarmast

@nautarch Part of the problem with alignment in 2017 is cultural in nature:more people buy into "it's all grey" thanks to about 50 years of film, theater, and literature that tell stories where good is dirty and bad is clean all at the same time. It makes for trope busting in story telling, and makes for some neat "a ha!" Literary tools.

@kviiri Which results in all sorts of wonkiness in tables that try to play the game by the book Which takes me back to "this game is more than mechanics" .. so have we not come full circle? :)

kviiri

@KorvinStarmast You keep repeating that, and yes, it might work just well for you.

But you might as well claim a blank A4 sheet is the best RPG system ever, based on that justification.

KorvinStarmast

@kviiri You might not be surprised that I find the whole "RAW" approach to D&D to be opposed to how that game was built, and is still built.

NautArch

@KorvinStarmast and alignment is generally very personal. We have ideas of what is good and evil, but there is a lot of grey area. Especially once you start viewing it from the lenses of culture and time.

kviiri

@KorvinStarmast It's not just about RAW, it's about giving new GMs and players guidance.

KorvinStarmast

2:46 PM

@NautArch You nailed that dive. Even got a 9.9 form the Russian judge.

doppelspooker

@Korvin I suspect you may know better what you mean by "the game is more than mecahnics" than we understand it as we read it. By the basic standard of how games are nowadays, it seems like a given that's the case for any game. You may want to explain if you want to circle back there.

kviiri

Guidance you obviously don't need, because if I've understood correctly, you've been playing for decades. Any guidance you may have needed would be decades overdue at this point.

KorvinStarmast

@kviiri Hmm, not everyone needs as much as you seem to desire, and I am not sure they can make a "perfect fit" ...

kviiri

But for fresh parties, "just do what you want, it's your game lol" is not exactly helpful.

doppelspooker

@KorvinStarmast That does create some issues. Nowadays I see a lot of people wanting to explore stories which don't have a classic clean good/evil divide, and doing so -- and when they do so in D&D, they encounter some significant friction from the alignment mechanics. Meanwhile alternately I can play in Masters of Umdaar, which explicitly asks me to dive into a story with classic, typical, black-and-white good vs evil, so I know what I'm going in there for.

KorvinStarmast

2:47 PM

@kviiri :) Ok, blame Dave Arneson. :)

doppelspooker

(MoU doesn't mechanise good vs evil, it just wants us to have two clear sides in the narrative -- one the Masters who are Classic Disney Evil, along with everyone who's on their side; and basically everyone else who is The Good Guys and against the Masters, whether they're consciously acting against them or not.)

KorvinStarmast

@kviiri I see your point on "how do you get this across to beginners" and I suspect that the devs discovered during this latest effort that no amount of words would be enough.

@doppelspooker Yeah, a standard story structure.

doppelspooker

@KorvinStarmast It's not very standard, though! It was rather unusual being asked to go into that kind of structure.

Magician

Isn't that the problem, yet again? D&D is about Knights in Shining Armor fighting Evil Sorcerers, but it's also about thieves and ne'er-do-wells doing mischief.

doppelspooker

So part of the issue with the alignment system may be it being a tool of yesteryear, where gamers nowadays need different narrative structure tools.

3

KorvinStarmast

2:50 PM

@doppelspooker Maybe I was so inundated by Disney films due to my wife getting all those VHS when the kids were growing up?

@Magician I don't see it as a problem.

NautArch

@doppelspooker A different age, a different time. I think that alignment being a tool of yesteryear is hitting it on the head.

kviiri

@KorvinStarmast Judging by other similar issues I see in 5e, I think it's just a part of the larger problem of "let the table decide" design which tries to cater to all playstyles.

NautArch

it's a heavy-handed tool, as well.

Magician

@KorvinStarmast Alignments: good for clean and simple good vs evil stories, not so good for murky shades of grey, or even just complex.

KorvinStarmast

@doppelspooker IMO, you have touched on part of it that I think would be better served by reverting to the Law/Neu/Chaos model since it is far less rigid to start with.

@Magician Respectfully disagree, see my point on our OD&D campaign with the "Spanish inquisition" paladins against us.

I'd say the two axis model got too rulesy, if that's a term.

Magician

2:52 PM

@KorvinStarmast ...this was your argument a moment ago.

KorvinStarmast

Then why would I change it.

Magician

> Part of the problem with alignment in 2017 is cultural in nature:more people buy into "it's all grey" thanks to about 50 years of ...

Shades of grey, alignment, problem. What, exactly, are you disagreeing with?

KorvinStarmast

That was in response to a complaint that beginners can't handle nuance and complexity, by kviiri, that they need more guidance.

NautArch

@KorvinStarmast i think that both of you are right on that. It's easier to simplify the interactions for beginners, but it's also harder because they don't think in terms of black and white, either.

KorvinStarmast

It is my opinion that the devs saw what had been going on in that regard and backed off in 5e, having seen the hot mess overly "rulesy" alignment had gotten to be mechanically.

doppelspooker

2:55 PM

@KorvinStarmast that was not the nature of kviiri's complaint

NautArch

It really is hard enough for us to look at historical actions as good/bad, doing it in a fantasy realm? Even harder.

KorvinStarmast

@doppelspooker Really? The ask for more rules, which I apparently don't need since I am experienced, for the beginning player? D&D isn't a simple game, it's complex.

kviiri

@KorvinStarmast I never said that.

@KorvinStarmast Can you stop misrepresenting things I've said?

KorvinStarmast

@kviiri Then what is your purpose for asking for more rules when I say we don't need more rules?

doppelspooker

@KorvinStarmast Kviiri was suggesting, as I understand it, that players run into difficulties trying to resolve friction with the alignment system (the friction you acknowledged here being a major component of it) because the game doesn't provide them adequate guidance or set expectations on how to use those systems.

kviiri

2:58 PM

@KorvinStarmast When exactly did I ask for more rules?

KorvinStarmast

Your objection seemed to be that my experience isn't shared by beginners.

kviiri

@doppelspooker Yes, this is what I mean.

KorvinStarmast

Which is true enough ...

doppelspooker

An example of setting expectations includes what I mentioned about Masters of Umdaar: it tells us we're going into a story about clearly divided Good & Evil, and asks us to run with that, and then gives us guidance if we want to modify it.

A game giving us advice on how to use itself effectively, and authors giving us guidance and setting expectations, especially with a system as tricky to employ as alignments, can be extremely valuable.

KorvinStarmast

Learning by doing is a thing.

doppelspooker

3:00 PM

So is providing useful advice to your players so they can learn by reading a couple of paragraphs.

3

KorvinStarmast

Look at this site. There is an immense amount of stuff written for many games. And people still have to ask questions about all of them. Not just D&D. I question your assertion that "more rules text" is the answer.

doppelspooker

I'm not asking for rules text.

kviiri

@KorvinStarmast Guidance is not the same as rules.

KorvinStarmast

@Kviiri Agreed.

How much more guidance is needed? I am not sure what's been left out that would be as constraining as what they tried to fix it from

Tell you what. This may take me a few days, but I'll go over all the DMG has on alignment, again, and the pHB, and see where I think the holes might be that need more filler for the cracks. I check back with you in about a week, OK?

kviiri

@KorvinStarmast They could start by explaining what is the intent of the alignment system, examples of ways it could be used, and examples of ways it shouldn't be used.

NautArch

3:05 PM

@kviiri is that too prescriptive,though? Or is it necessary?

doppelspooker

That's probably not entirely necessary, but I'd be interested to hear what you spot.

Magician

@kviiri I'm not sure I can recall a single instance of a D&D book explaining the intent of its rules. Not prone to self-reflection. Neither are most other games, really.

kviiri

@NautArch Too prescriptive for what?

KorvinStarmast

@Kviiri They do the former (maybe not well?) but the latter looks like a non starter from a marketing perpective. (From an experienced gamer perspective, I am not sure I disagree with you, in terms of for the DMG "common ways to screw up/avoid" tips. Is that what you are getting at?

NautArch

@kviiri is it too prescriptive to give those examples (intent, ways it can be used, ways it can't be used)

doppelspooker

3:07 PM

From my POV, a lot of newbie struggles would be resolved by two parts:
- explaining the kind of stories the alignment system is meant to create, and guide players that if(!) they use the alignment system, they should be aiming to create those kinds of stories. suggest how they should resolve the numerous conflicts and confusions people run into when trying to resolve different descriptions of alignments. (such as by suggesting: "hey, this was just for that kind of story, so you might not be actually telling that story, and if not, the alignment system is not for your story.") if they do not…

kviiri

@KorvinStarmast Yeah, not covering major pitfalls of possible GM choices is one of the big deficiencies of DMG and PHB.

KorvinStarmast

Moral choices and dilemmas I think are supposed to be open to make for narrative tension. Analog world, not digital.

kviiri

Or possible player choices, for that matter.

KorvinStarmast

Ok, I'll take another look at the DMG and get back to you.

Is it a date? :)

kviiri

@NautArch Depends on the scope of those examples I guess

doppelspooker

3:08 PM

Moral dilemmas are a bit of a problem though in a universe where you can objectively divine the correct course of action, because there is a set of objectively correct courses of action.

We get moral dilemmas in real life because morality is up to us to define and weigh.

NautArch

@kviiri It may be my own thoughts on morality bleeding in, but it's such a difficult subject that it's hard to give direction on it for any individual or group.

KorvinStarmast

@doppelspooker We used to read up on stuff like that in Dragon ... but I am getting off topic

doppelspooker

But in D&D, "would you kill one to save the many?" can be divined with a correct Good answer, including case by case.

kviiri

@NautArch they can be as broad as "The GM can request player characters to stick to a certain subset of the alignments" and "do not use your Evil alignment as an excuse to be a jerk to the other players".

doppelspooker

That's a bit of an issue in the face of the fantasy stories players see nowadays.

KorvinStarmast

3:10 PM

you can objectively divine the correct course of action, because there is a set of objectively correct courses of action Uh, I don't think so. That sounds a little too mechanical; narrative tension is good for story.

NautArch

@kviiri What i've been learning is that alignment isn't the judge/jury/executioner - it's how the actions are interpreted and reacted to in the world you're in.

unless it's glaring obvious (likey ou're a lawful good cleric to a lawful good god and you kill people out of spite)

KorvinStarmast

@doppelspooker We are back to "it depends on the situation" and DM as guiding/facilitating the collective story telling effort.

kviiri

@NautArch Well, the book isn't too verbose on that either

NautArch

@kviiri right, and i don't think the DMG is either- and that's where it should be.

doppelspooker

@KorvinStarmast Whilst I agree on all counts, it's a thing the D&D universe makes available by the nature of how alignment is codified into the objective fabric of the cosmos.

kviiri

3:12 PM

@NautArch I think it's fair to cover in PHB too that it's common and okay for the GM to ignore alignment completely or to restrict the alignment choice.

doppelspooker

(I'm of the thought that if I ran into an actual in-universe figure from D&D, in my universe, they would have some really weird ideas around morality compared to mine -- many which are almost-but-not-quite-right compared to how we frequently handle things in our universe.)

KorvinStarmast

@doppelspooker Such as demons being formed of evil, in the MM description in 5e?

doppelspooker

@KorvinStarmast such as a host of acts or magic being Objectively Good or Objectively Evil.

NautArch

@kviiri yeah, and i guess it' would be more about what alignment means in terms of attitudes, but also that your actions may also have a popular reaction that is not necessarily directly related to alignments.

KorvinStarmast

Descriptive has always seemed to me a better way ...

@doppelspooker The cultural assumption of necromancy being evil seems to me to be something you'd agree to with a D&D universe denizen. Am I following you?

doppelspooker

3:16 PM

@KorvinStarmast I wouldn't go with that necessarily -- heck, I play Magic, where Liliana the Necromancer is frequently one of the Good Guys -- but D&D itself codifies raising dead as Objectively Evil.

KorvinStarmast

Those "objective acts as evil' Looks to me to be the kind of guidance you or kviiri are looking for. Touchpoints within the system.

Not just evil, unnatural. See the Druid class description, 5e.

doppelspooker

@KorvinStarmast It isn't something I'm looking for, no.

KorvinStarmast

That's a stakein the ground.

I guess that those are not sufficient in terms of DMG level guidance, right?

Desired, per this discussion.

doppelspooker

Well, the mechanical touchstones like those are the ones that often create problems with the shades-of-grey stuff. "I'll raise some zombies to protect the villagers!" says the party wizard, shocking everyone because everyone knows that's horribly evil no matter what.

KorvinStarmast

Just a note on alignment, from its creator: Arneson shared that his favorite class to play was a Paladin, and that is because of how hard it was with all of the restrictions.

doppelspooker

3:19 PM

@KorvinStarmast Oh, does D&D 5e not codify Animate Dead as Evil? I thought it did.

KorvinStarmast

No, they say it's generally evil. They put a lot of soft edges on stuff like that.

The spell has no alignment; it is "the use it is put to' that might be evil, Descriptive, after the fact, rather than prescriptive.

That "generally evil' is in the WIzard Necromancer section, class descriptions.

shocking everyone because everyone knows that's horribly evil no matter what I think you are thinking of both a different edition, and an overly mechanical way of playing the game. Particularly the "no matter what" part.

doppelspooker

@KorvinStarmast That's helpful.

@KorvinStarmast Yes, I'm thinking of the way D&D 3.5e codified it. (And, I think, previous editions.)

KorvinStarmast

What I would expect to see in the village is some people utterly repulsed by the means, though some would accept the means as necessary for the end: save the village. And no, the mayor won't let you date his daughter/son. :)

hey, "a necessary evil" just like poltics. :p

@Magician Alignments: good for clean and simple good vs evil stories Uh, no. See Michael Moorcock, Elric series, and for that matter, the whole "eternal champion" cycle. Alignment alive and well in that narrative structure, and it's messy.

@doppelspooker Hmm, an alignment discussion that almost went well. What will happen next, lions laying down with lambs?

doppelspooker

@KorvinStarmast Yeah, this went ok-ish. I'm impressed.

KorvinStarmast

:) I owe @kviiri a review of DMG alignment stuff and some feedback next week.

NautArch

3:36 PM

@doppelspooker you're wrong, you're wrong, you're wrong. And I don't wanna talk about it.

doppelspooker

@NautArch noooooo!

NautArch

now, if someone can just explain to my wife to not put thick vegetable matter (the tops of peppers) down the dispos-all.

doppelspooker

@KorvinStarmast mostly the holes i'd look for are: where could the DMG guide players so they don't run into the confusion they experience abundantly, or run into DMs using alignment as a cudgel, or being worried it's being used as a cudgel when their alignment might be changing?

also, how can we guide players to play the kinds of stories that work with the alignment system, and avoid accidentally playing the kinds of stories the alignment system fights against?

SPavel

ooh ooh an alignment argument!

doppelspooker

@SPavel sorry it's over already :P

and surprisingly un-argument-ish

SPavel

3:42 PM

@doppelspooker Alignment arguments are never over

Also re: alignment, I'm still sad they didn't do law/chaos properly, ever.

To me it's a much more interesting kind of conflict, and could be the answer to the more nuanced gray-and-gray morality that people like these days

doppelspooker

Certainly a conflict exclusively between law vs chaos enables us to have tons of moral grey area.

because, well, the morality is in good & evil, and we can have all that discussion without contravening the conflict we're engaged in.

SPavel

More like - Lawful Evil is the same distance away from Lawful Good as Chaotic Good is. Logically, LG creatures should consider LE and CG creatures equally misguided.

When will angels and demons band together against eladrin?

Yuuki

NautArch

@Yuuki i think someone doesn't understand the physical limitations of a bag of holding

SPavel

Hell, LN is closer to LG than CG is, should LGs like LNs better?

doppelspooker

3:52 PM

@Yuuki this is pretty funny

SPavel

I like to explore that kind of thing in my settings - for example, in my monstrous settings, Lawful beings defend the status quo of cosmic law, and Chaotic beings want to overturn it, so CE and CG work together to fight against Lawfuls just as often as they fight among themselves.

Adam

Hey guys! I'm running a 5e adventure where the PCs pained the BBEG so much that he's going to send a hit squad after them. The PCs also have some magic items that would seriously aid BBEG's plan. I don't want my players thinking that I'm trying to take their stuff because "DMs are jerks." BBEG really does want them dead and to own their stuff. Are there any pitfalls I should avoid to keep this a "bad guys are coming after us" encounter instead of a "DM is trying to screw us" encounter?

kviiri

My approach would just to be open about that and introduce a transparent rule on how/when item theft happens, but I understand that's not the option for all parties.

nitsua60

@SPavel I have multiple players with children who now play at the same table... that count?

SPavel

@Adam Give them warning. The BBEG has other enemies, and they have magic items (or had, anyway). You could introduce the PCs to some NPCs who seek revenge on the BBEG because he boosted their gear. At the same time, if the PCs have good perception skills, they might see suspicious people following them...

NautArch

4:05 PM

@Adam I like @SPavel idea. As long as you have a good narrative (and you do), and make it clear to the players the risks of what might happen, they can defend themselves and not be surprised if something happens.

nitsua60

@KorvinStarmast Well, the rules barely acknowledge it, so that's generally how I treat it when GMing AL. Personally, I've only liked it when hewing to the oooold notions of Law-Chaos. Like Poul Anderson/Holger Carlsen notions =)

SPavel

@Adam Also, stick with the classic RPG tenet of escalation. The BBEG has lots of things that need doing, he can't send his best guys just to rob some losers. He'll send whoever is available locally, and the PCs are likely to be more than a match.

KorvinStarmast

@Adam This is where you use third parties, friends in town, bartenders, temple bound clerics, smugglers, someone who "heard it through the grape vine" that the BBEG's minions have it in for the PC's and here's why.

@SPavel I'd offer that you take that up with Dave Arneson, but he's dead. See the reminiscing he did that I used in the answer to HeyICanChan question to early RPG era PvP play. I'd rather go back to law/chaos for the reasons nits, doppel, and others promote. It makes for more latitude in the grey area that makes for good narrative tension and surprises...

SPavel

@Adam Also depending on how principled the BBEG is, he might just warn the PCs himself to desist and hand over their items, or else...

KorvinStarmast

@Yuuki That's funny, thanks. :) @Adam Notes written in blood, on a piece of parchment, with a non ambiguous warning "deliver X or else' is another way: if the note is pinned to the door with a dagger, or some such ...

SPavel

4:12 PM

Imagine your party's reaction when the BBEG's lawyers demand to meet with their legal counsel to work out a settlement re: their interference in the BBEG's legal and rightful conduct.

nitsua60

you rang?
=D

SPavel

"If the party of the first part shall not immediately cease their injurious and obstructionist activities, and shall refuse to compensate the party of the second part for prior such activity through surrender of the items listed in Appendix XVIII...

... the party of the second part shall seek compensation through appropriate legal channels, which in the current jurisdiction may include but are not limited to repossession via contractor (hereafter referred to as "Thieves Guild"), compulsion via geas and similar mind-affecting sorcery, or wanton and brutal slaughter of the party of the first part with enormous axes."

Adam

Not terrible ideas, and I'll definitely keep them in mind. The party has progressed past the "rat catchers getting in over their heads" stage, so I may have to adjust things around a bit to compensate for that. The PCs are active and very powerful members of the resistance against an army of invading goblinoids. At this point, war has broken out and the PCs are valuable targets, both for their loot and their status as heroes.

GreySage

It constantly surprises me how my most offhand and dismissive answers get upvoted the most. I woke up to a nice +200 rep in my inbox today.

SPavel

@Adam Has the invading army proven to have a special forces/infiltration component?

Adam

4:21 PM

@SPavel Yup. The PCs already dealt with some of them before.

SPavel

Then it should not come as a surprise when they show up, but perhaps have them steal from a lower-ranked person first

Adam

I suppose that brings up another detail that I'll have to get across. The goal isn't "steal from the heroes" the goal is "kill them all, rip their weapons from their cold, dead hands, and bring those weapons to me"

KorvinStarmast

@GreySage Do we need to down vote a few to bring you back to earth? 8^D (kidding)

Adam

The goal will be to make an encounter that's really hard, but not a guaranteed TPK.

KorvinStarmast

@Adam NPC diviner, or dreamer, has vivid dream of the BBEG's minions "killing them all, ripping their weapons ..." and comes running to the party in fear, like Cassandra in Troy ... will they believe her?

nitsua60

4:25 PM

@GreySage To be fair, your answer's (a) completely correct, and (b) more than that question required. (I'm not saying that's a knock against you: I'm saying you were much kinder/more thorough in answering than I can imagine being, myself. So I wouldn't really call yours "dismissive.")

SPavel

Which question?

kviiri

I also recently got to make a rather unexpectedly very popular answer: rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/109837/…

It's my highest score answer to date, and yet one I'm not particularly proud of :P it's just simple mechanics !

GreySage

21

A: Can I repeatedly cast (spam) concentration spells?

Yes, you can cast "Create Bonfire" as your action each turn. The effect of the previous casting will end, as you are casting another spell requiring concentration, but you can keep casting new spells and forcing Dex saving throws (and lighting the forest on fire). The only requirement for castin...

SPavel

@kviiri "simple mechanics" are what D&D is all about, people love exploits and the threshold for an exploit is pretty low for people who are not mechanics-savvy.

I'm guessing that 90% of people don't even remember that multiclassing is a thing.

kviiri

@SPavel Well, yeah... it's also a part I'm not really fond of, but I'm still really good at memorizing it ;)

SPavel

4:30 PM

It's the part that I'm most fond of, which is why I loved 3.5 so much - you can go book-diving and slap together a hideous monster of a build that bends into a pretzel to do exciting things

kviiri

Anyway, I must go now, my people are waiting for me. See y'all

SPavel

And then people go "but why not just write a homebrew" and that makes me sad

Adam

@KorvinStarmast I like this. I've done a dream sequence with the PCs once before, and it worked pretty well. I've been looking for a reason to do it again.

SPavel

@Adam The PCs dream that the BBEG kills them all and also they aren't wearing pants

nitsua60

@SPavel Yeah, if grabbing one level of rogue to pick up expertise or one level of fighter to grab a style and a bunch of weapon/armor proficiencies counts as as an "exploit," then there're a lot of exploits to be had =)

Adam

4:32 PM

@nitsua60 Hey man! I'm going to take two levels of fighter for action surge, thank you very much ;)

KorvinStarmast

@Adam A pleasure to be of service, Adam, and I hope it all goes well (and by well I mean Dangerously!) :)

nitsua60

@Adam I'll see that and take two levels of rogue for Cunning Action!!!

=D

KorvinStarmast

My Nephew has a Monk/Cleric MC that dipped one lvl Monk for AC and Martial arts, rest cleric, water domain. Really neat, he and DM brewed up a variation on Thorn Whip called water whip that fit very nicely into the theme, and our story.

SPavel

Careful or you'll end up taking all 20 levels in rogue

KorvinStarmast

@SPavel That's not a bad thing. :)

nitsua60

4:34 PM

@SPavel Rogue is a particularly tough one for me--there are few levels where there isn't something just a little-bit nice just one more level away....

SPavel

Yeah but if you started out wanting to play a cleric..

Adam

If you started out wanting to play a cleric, but enjoyed Rogue so much that you took all 20 levels in it, I think that's a win.

SPavel

Or you wanted to do rogue 3/cleric 17 and the game ended at level 3 :(

Adam

That would be sad

NautArch

5:42 PM

@SevenSidedDie on this question, I may be nitpicking (and you removed my edit to your answer) that the DM also bypassed the saving throw for the damage. Should that be clarified?

SevenSidedDie

6:00 PM

@NautArch Oh, I missed that clarification! I didn't want to give it away in discussing the item itself if it wasn't already brought up in the Q, but since that's been clarified I added a whole section. (I see possible nuances there.) Thanks for the prod!

NautArch

@SevenSidedDie no problem :) I like the idea of hiding magic item spoilers and will try to incoprorate in my answers, but the missed saving throw seems like the DM just made a mistake.

I'd probably have ruled the same way though that the mage hand has a link back to the caster and the psychic damage flows through it.

nitsua60

@NautArch or they could have rolled secretly?

NautArch

@nitsua60 how'd they roll the save for the PC secretly?

nitsua60

Hey, what're you doing Saturday?

@NautArch roll a d20, add the right modifier? =)

Adam

I've done that plenty of times. Usually when somebody is trying to scry the PCs

Often I'll roll perception checks for the PCs too.

NautArch

6:15 PM

@nitsua60 not sure yet, you setting up a game?

@nitsua60 sneaky sneaky. But I guess it makes sense in some ways (like @Adam's scry or if, let's say, a mage hand was doing something and you didn't realize there was a problem)

Yuuki

Oh, there's been something I've been meaning to ask. Could someone be levitated (via Levitate) up and down over a horde of monsters and make swipes at them before being lifted safely out of range?

NautArch

@Adam ut overall, I personally don't like the idea of not allowing my PCs to make a save themselves. You don't need to tell them what it's for, but not allowing them tod o it seems like it's kind of taking away agency.

@Yuuki Are you asking if being levitated avoids OA?

Yuuki

@NautArch More whether the maneuver is legal.

NautArch

@Yuuki so, levitate up so that they're within range vertically rather than horizontally? But you're forcing their movement so no OA?

I think that's a legitimate RAW move, but I'd be hesitant to make it legal because it's a workaround to OA.

Yuuki

Hmm, lemme try to explain.

As a preface, I am not trying to avoid OA. Rather, OAs didn't really factor into this strategy.

GreySage

6:22 PM

@NautArch A saving throw isn't agency, it is a random outcome that your players don't control. Whether they roll the die or you, the outcome is the same.

NautArch

I may be misinterpreting :) The "lifted safely out of range" bit is what made me think of OA.

@GreySage You could say the same thing about an attack. Whether they roll the die or the DM, the outcome is the same.

Adam

@NautArch In most circumstances, I agree. But there are some situations where the ends justify the means. Some circumstances, at least with my group, are in my opinion actively harmed by alerting the player to a situation that their character could not perceive. This is hardly a common thing, and very much depends on context.

Yuuki

Mr. Fighter is good at melee but he has no ranged options. The party is on the roof of a building with a group of monsters below. Mr. Wizard had earlier Levitated Mr. Fighter to get him on the roof and the spell is still active.

NautArch

@Adam I could definitely see that, especially with savvy players. But just asking someone to roll a save without explaining anything doesn't really tip a hat. I think there are likely some narrative needs to do it, but in general it just doesn't sit well with me.

but I also don't roll anything behind screens

Yuuki

Can Mr. Fighter jump off the roof, fall within range for a melee attack, and then get Levitated back by Mr. Wizard?

Rinse and repeat. Mr. Fighter might need to eat OAs, but he'll never be in range of the monsters on their turn.

NautArch

6:25 PM

@Yuuki Ah! Yes, you could - as long as the wizard had Readied action to do so upon completion of Mr. Fighter's melee attack (and after Mr. Fighter takes falling damage)

GreySage

@NautArch You're right, an attack isn't agency either. Choosing to make that attack is your player exercising their agency. Unless your player can choose to fail that saving throw or do something else about it, it is not a question of agency. Unrelated, rolling dice is fun, so that might be a factor.

NautArch

Mr Figher could also action surge to dodge

Yuuki

Well, you can't fall while Levitating so Mr. Wizard would have to lower Mr. Fighter close enough to the ground to attack and then Levitate him back after the attack completes.

Adam

@NautArch On the contrary, I find that asking players to make a save without telling them why makes them paranoid to figure out the source of the save is. That can lead them to draw incorrect assumptions about something that their character shouldn't even have noticed.

NautArch

@Yuuki yes, true - the wizard would have to lower them as an action and raise them as another ation.

Yuuki

6:27 PM

Levitate doesn't specify whether you can only be moved in one direction per round.

Just 30 ft. in a turn, I think.

NautArch

@Yuuki yes, but "If you are the target, you can move up or down as part of your move."

so the wizard wouldn't have to drop them down, they can do it on their own

Adam

For example, I had a player roll their save against a scrying spell once, and they aced it. But the players immediately assumed that the save was because an item they found was cursed, even though it wasn't. They changed the way they played as a result of that, despite the fact that their characters would never have noticed. And based on the game I like to run and that we've been playing, I think that is harm done to the game.

NautArch

@Yuuki 20'

Yuuki

So it is legal then?

nitsua60

@NautArch I am. We're doing something like a 1pm-9pm, hang out, grab dinner, play-all-day-like-we're-teenagers-again thing.

NautArch

6:29 PM

@Adam hmm, i agree that there are edge cases for when to not let someone roll, but those are just that: edge cases.

@Yuuki yeah, I'd say that's a go.

Adam

@NautArch It also confusingly says "The target can move only by pushing or pulling against a fixed object or surface within reach (such as a wall or a ceiling), which allows it to move as if it were climbing."

GreySage

@Yuuki "You can change the target's altitude by up to 20 feet in either direction on Your Turn"

Yuuki

Well, then that's the story of how my party defeated a pack of big wolves from the roof of a barn.

NautArch

@nitsua60 That sounds awesome, but i've got my gameday scheduled for the following wed. Don't think I can split from the wife and kids twice/week.

especially with my son's broken arm requiring more attention for him

nitsua60

@NautArch ooh =(

What happened?

NautArch

6:30 PM

@Yuuki hahahahaha, nice!

@nitsua60 monkey bars. Broke his elbow and required 3 pins into a growth plate :/. non-dominant arm and hopefully worst case is just a slightly different bend in the arm.

nitsua60

@NautArch Oh, that stinks. How old? (The child, not the injury.)

6?

GreySage

@Yuuki This kind of goes against how combat is layed out. Since the wizard is casting on the fighter, the fighter can only be moved on the wizards turn, and the fighter can only attack on his own turn, so it doesn't really work.

Yuuki

@NautArch Notably, I spent half of combat maneuvering around like I was in zero-G, pushing off walls and tying a rope to myself and pulling myself around.

NautArch

@nitsua60 5.75 :) Since he can't do anything that may get him sweating, we've spent a small fortune on legos the past 3 weeks. Built a Y-wing, Crennick's Shuttle, and some smaller stuff.

and...I introduced him to video games (much earlier than I wanted...but goddamn, playing lego star wars with him is a LOT of fun)

nitsua60

@Adam "the characters never would have" depends on what you think a saving throw means. By RAW it's "an attempt to resist," which means that the character is actually noticing something magically trying to impinge... so the character might just suspect something cursed in the area?

NautArch

6:33 PM

@Yuuki that's awesome. My paladin has that no-range option problem. but looks like Find Greater Steed may resolve that.

nitsua60

@NautArch That's around when mine picked up Plants vs. Zombies. For a similar reason =)

NautArch

although, I'll take a hit on my damage output.

Yuuki

@NautArch I had two javelins but I had already thrown them at a dire wolf.

NautArch

@nitsua60 ooh, may have to pick that up on Steam. I just like the co-op action of Lego star wars.

Yuuki

I might solve my range problem with a Hexblade multiclassing.

nitsua60

6:34 PM

@NautArch We played it totally co-op, in classic boy-way. We'd take turns playing and kibitzing =)

NautArch

@Yuuki yeah, io've got a couple of those, but it's limiting. I spent one battle tossing a trident, picking it up, tossing it again.

@Yuuki our DM very strangely gave us a chance to try and do some magical shopping. I don't trust him and his prices are usually way high, so I went with mostly uncommon items - including a wand of magic missiles.

asked for: cloak of monta ray, elemental gem, saddle of the cavalier, sending stones(for story purposes, we need to stay in touch with someone), stone of controlling earth elementals

find out wed what's available

@Yuuki we're also nearing end-game, and I'd rather hit 15 and get my reaction attack when I'm attacked. I already have sentinel, so now I can use my reaction to attack if I'm attacked or if an ally with 5' of the monster is attacked.

Adam

@nitsua60 True, but it's been established in 5e that you don't necessarily know that anybody is casting a spell that targets you unless you can perceive the effect or the caster

That's what we've used for the last few months, so that's what I'm sticking with

NautArch

@Adam definitely shouldn't switch anything at this point :)

NautArch

7:18 PM

so is the main difference in 5e between a griffin and pegasus is that the pegasus has better stats for saves, while the griffon has multiattack?

Adam

Griffon also has advantage on sight based perception, while the Pegasus is significantly faster

NautArch

ah, i missed the speed. I guess pegasus is going to be my choice

gotta pick up a shield since I can't use my two handed weapon whilst riding..

Yuuki

7:35 PM

Pegasus Knight? Will you be able to triangle attack?

NautArch

@Yuuki ?

Yuuki

It's a Fire Emblem thing.

SPavel

Triangle attack is only usable if you, like a fool, give XP to anyone but Florina

Level 40 Florina wins the entire game by herself

NautArch

ah. yah, no :)

Mike Q

Hello internet friends, how have yall been?

NautArch

7:45 PM

howdy @MikeQ. just getting ready to head out and start some turkey day prep.

SPavel

Are you doing the entire turkey?

Ryan

hi all, how is everyone?

SPavel

Slacking off at work

Ryan

always a good plan

NautArch

@SPavel I usually do, but last year i gave the instructions to my wife and she rocked it. So I sous-chef for i. Cut up all the veggie for inside it and do the brining.

I'm making the spiral ham (which is just putting it in the smoker to add more smoke while it warms up and also making a pineapple/honey/rootbeer glaze)

Ryan

7:52 PM

pineapple honey rootbeer glaze sounds delicious. don't eat ham but I could see that being good on poultry too

gotta make a decision about Bard College. Torn between Valor, Glamour, or Swords.

NautArch

@Ryan I'm lore...hard to wantsomething else :)

Ryan

I wish College of Valor's Combat Inspiration would let the Bard do it on the other player's turn and be the one to role

like "Look at that mighty swing!" and it adds +d6 (or whatever lvl inspiration you're at) to the attack immediately

College of Lore seems weak to me. Do you use it for Eldrith Blast or something else @NautArch

Would be so much stronger if something in it gave you more spell slots rather than spells known but I guess thats too similar to Sorceror

Mike Q

@Ryan You use it to get mid-level spells from the cleric, druid, and/or wizard lists

NautArch

@Ryan I dipped warlock for blast, but I used it for more magical secrets. Being able to dip and grab other class spells is HUGE.

@MikeQ or paladin, warlock and the other casters.

Ryan

@NautArch like which spells exactly though do you find yourself using from other lists a lot?

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