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12:02 AM
hey @Shalvenay
how you doin
alright here, as for you @Skyler?
pretty decent, kinda floatin around a bit today more than anything else
had an interesting talk with BESW earlier about a few ideas for a system I've been playing around with in my head
mainly just curious to hear opinions on it. Do you feel like it messes with players for you to roll lower numbers to do better
Can you articulate why you feel people might have trouble with that? Or describe the situation in which you've seen people have trouble with it?
Not really, just everybody I play with has basically only ever done DnD and when I tried describing this idea to a friend they acted a bit weird
so it may just be a symptom of being around noobs
and purely psychological
@Skyler Having played for months in a system where rolling low is desirable, no.
12:15 AM
@Skyler The most widespread German system, The Dark Eye, has all rolls (except damage rolls) follow the rule of "lower is better". I have not had any problems playing systems with "higher is better" with players accustomed to that, so I don't think there's any problem with it in the other direction, either.
If your friends have trouble with it, you might try hooking up to existing schema--remind them of other games where low scores are better, like golf.
(Also, look up "THAC0" some time.)
THAC0. Since I never played D&D, the only thing that reminds me of is the Baldur's Gate series of video games :)
@BESW Gah.
Generally I just think it'd be interesting to make an expert reliable, and make an amatuer at something still conceivable of doing it, but with added potential risks to themselves.
Hmm. There are a lot of ways to do that.
12:19 AM
Yea, theives in DnD are an ok example
I'm fond of success-at-cost and gated levels of success.
@Skyler Has that something to do with lower numbers vs. higher numbers or did you just switch topics? ;)
@ACuriousMind He's thinking that with high-number-better systems, an untrained character is literally unable to hit high difficulty targets, while with low-number-better systems anyone can potentially roll low enough to do a thing.
Uh, doesn't that entirely depend on how the skill/training influences the roll?
12:22 AM
'kay then
@BESW what's your favorite success at cost
Fate's probably got the best success-at-cost toolkit I've seen.
Cthulhu Dark is pretty great at it too, in a much smaller package, but with a very tight thematic scope.
Yea I am not sure how just switching the high low roll dichotomy would do that better than just restructuring the system
@BESW everything I've heard about that game makes it sound very open in form, any chance for a quick rundown of what you mean
In Fate, a roll for an action isn't a binary pass/fail outcome. It can result in failure at cost (3 or more under the target); failure (2 or less under the target); tie (hitting the target); success (2 or less over the target); and success with style (3 or more over the target).
And there are a number of ways to negotiate your way up the scale if you roll poorly or don't have the raw modifiers to accomplish your goal.
At its simplest, if you fail a roll you can suggest to the party that you succeed anyway, but a Bad Thing also happens.
12:28 AM
Also, the table is generally encouraged to argue collectively about what counts as "with style" or "at cost" instead of the GM deciding it. I think that's maybe an even larger difference to D&D style tests than the non-binariness of the outcomes
hey there @ACuriousMind
@Shalvenay Hey there :)
@ACuriousMind Especially given that the binariness of the DnD outcomes comes completely from the DM, not the system. There is nothing stopping a DM from using the various levels of success.
@GreySage yeah
For instance, PbtA games also implement "success at cost", but it feels very different to Fate because there it's explicitly the GM who is supposed to offer the player a hard choice between several outcomes with "cost", and sometimes the moves themselves already contain a rather strict list of what outcomes you can choose from.
12:30 AM
@GreySage Well, let's not act like being able to add extra stuff to a system is a feature of the system, especially in a system that already tries to present itself as exhaustive.
hmm, interesting
so basically the players collectively convince the DM something is a sufficient cost
@Skyler No, in Fate the GM is more of a facilitator for the group's collaboration.
A player trying to negotiate success at cost is entering into a discussion with the whole group about what would be cool and reasonable.
(Usually "cool" is more important than "reasonable.")
@BESW so basically the DM's role becomes setting up the scenario and just keeping the party engaged
@GreySage Well, the binariness does come from the system, but it feels less like a violation of its design principles to introduce levels of success than it would be to allow the group to negotiate as equals what the outcome of an action is.
@ACuriousMind that being said failure at a cost is really dangerous in DnD at the lower levels in particular, since that's almost always felt a lot more than success with style and it's easy to get low rolls
12:36 AM
@Skyler Well, you don't have to kill your players every time they botch a roll :)
One caveat is that it would probably be quite hard to modify the D&D combat system to have non-binary success levels
@ACuriousMind I agree, I've just found that the DMs I've played with are still to green to get that
@Skyler The GM (Game Master; "Dungeon Master" is a D&D-specific term of art) is responsible for flow and coherency, and representing the setting. Often in Fate the scenarios are also determined with a high level of collaboration, though that's not necessary.
@ACuriousMind I think 13th Age came closest.
@trogdor Going by the "if it says it's a dragon, do you argue?" metric, this is definitely a dragon:
Long-lost alligator snapping turtle rediscovered 30 years after it was thought extinct in Illinois http://bit.ly/2htpXY6
@Skyler Eh, then teach them
@ACuriousMind I'm workin on it =)
Or, well, have a discussion about what sort of game you're running. At some tables (and in some systems), it is the general expectation that failure will result in character death
12:42 AM
Btw guys, what are you favorite ways to add harms, costs, and consequences to a game without crippling/debilitating/killing players
@BESW yeah, I think there are even some turtles called dragon turtles, though I forgot what species
@Skyler Well, I generally just have that kind of thing happen to their characters.
@Skyler What do you mean by "adding"? Are there games without harms, costs and consequences?
Instead of abstract hit points, consequences are the lasting drawbacks you're willing to suffer in order to stay relephant in a conflict.
12:44 AM
For example I've been treating player crit fails more like success with style on the enemies part when I'm playing.
which is good for the short term
@ACuriousMind Yeah, D&D's hit point system tends to do that.
@Skyler that's an interesting way of treating crit fails
person crit failed fighting a person in the town, his attack was redirected into a stall and he fell over the table
@Shalvenay It's pretty much how Fate does it, actually: an attack that fails by 3 or more is actually a defense that succeeded with style.
@BESW I'll grant that loss of hit points is not a very fun or narratively interesting consequence, but it is a "consequence without crippling/debilitating/killing players".
12:46 AM
@Skyler How is that success with style by the enemy? Isn't that just slapstick-level failure by the PC?
@Miniman Sometimes it's more, but I was thinking of a generic setting
@ACuriousMind I mean, technically? But in most cases it's not a consequence so much as a countdown to consequences.
@Miniman I think it just depends how you look at it
something to fit in a tweet length
more often I'd like to put the enemy in a favorable position, have an enemies trap pay off, etc
at least that's my inclination as its been
@BESW Sure, but what sort of consequence that does not debilitate the character in some way wouldn't be a mere countdown to a consequence that does debilitate them? I guess I was trying to get a feeling what @Skyler was actually asking for, maybe I'm parsing things too literally here
12:49 AM
reading consequences now
@Skyler Caveat: The notion of consequences might not entirely make sense if you haven't read about Fate's aspects before
@ACuriousMind A bloody nose, a blinding need to prove oneself, a fear of robots, needing to load a new clip of bullets, losing faith in one's friend... there's a LOT of space between "I'm fine until I run out of hit points completely" and "anything that happens to me is debilitating."
@ACuriousMind well in fate there are intermediate options like an opponent getting a boost or aspect with free invokes
@Miniman I did once actually have a chandelier ride by an enemy on a players crit fail
In our last Fate game, @doppelspooker spent the last third of a firefight with his leg trapped under rubble, but he was still able to shoot enemies and help strategize.
12:53 AM
Those don't last as long or do as much as getting a consequence but they still do something other than just make a number go down
@BESW Ah, I think I misinterpreted what degree of severity "debilitating" denotes. Sometimes English not being my native language shows ;)
Cthulhu Confidential, being a system designed for one-on-one play for cynical noir storytelling, makes an art out of having awful things happen to the PC without removing their agency (because then there's nobody to continue the story).
btw, in fate what are biggest numbers you tend to see. Like in DnD after everything is said and done seeing 35s is quite a rarity until maybe really late game (i'd presume)
@Skyler Fate's dice provide a bell curve from -4 to +4, with a very strong tendency toward the middle of the curve. Skill modifiers are usually between +0 and +3, up to +5 in really pulpy adventure games.
I think the highest difficulty target I've ever seen was about +15, and that was RIDICULOUS.
about the most difficult fights I've made for players were other shades of other PCs
even with softened stats you'd need like something like a 5 on 3 ratio for an engagement like that be possible
The first time I tested it out I actually used a shade based on my character and with just my standard 1 action vs 4 other players 3 of them got down to like 10-15 health
1:02 AM
@Skyler That can't possibly be true. It must be possible to win 5v5, or the shades couldn't possibly win either.
@Miniman I shaved off like 20% and gave the shades one other ability, double movement in shadows and the ability to hide for up to a turn in the shadows
@Skyler No, I mean, if they were exact copies, 5v5, logically, must be winnable. Because if it wasn't, it wouldn't be for either side, which doesn't make any sense.
@Miniman yea, but the issue i think arises from 5 players working together vs 1 dm controlling 5 pcs basically
@Skyler Oh, for sure. We talked about it a lot when you raised it here initially. I'm just saying, it is possible.
@Miniman yea, like my character had a decently nova build and a lot of retaliatory damage built in so ironically enough he would have excelled at those encounters
(though he wasn't there)
1:11 AM
@Shalvenay Hi Shalveney sorry I was afk for your greeting
@KorvinStarmast no problem, how're things going?
Just got home, checking in, but am about to have a game of hearthstone with my son. Hope all is well with you.
things are alright over here
Ok. off I go to try not to get whooped. :)
2 hours later…
2:51 AM
hey there @Nyoze
Hello chat room o/
Greetings and salutations
hey as well @HadesHerald, how're things going?
Pretty good, watching some gate, enjoyed running a game of Call of Cathlhu last night, etc.
Standard Nerd stuff
"watching some gate" - The gates of hell? The gates of Eden? Stargate? The gate to your garden? ;)
3:06 AM
@ACuriousMind Overseeing people taking a Graduate Aptitude Test in Engineering?
alright here
Nope an anime just named "Gate"
3:52 AM
@KorvinStarmast Anbd has the votes to prove it =D
@inthemanual excellent fight atop Firefinger tonight.
Here are some rules we agreed to before the fight started.
4:11 AM
Nice. My group didn't get close to the edge
Just seemed to happen that way, but I do think I dumbed down the fight a little too much. Although they were only level 2, their guide is pretty strong.
@inthemanual I had four or five people dragged over the edge.
@inthemanual [redacted]?
I was trying not to spoil names for those who might not know.
Since this is the general channel
But yes
Good point.
None died, though. All rescued in suitably-heroic fashion.
E.g. a druid-cum-panther was dragged off the edge and plummetted. Unbeknownst to the rest of the party he quickly activated a charm (gift from elsewhere) that feather falled him. On his next turn everyone else bemoaned his death... until--with his climb speed--he came racing right back up the side of the tower and burst back into the fight =)
I only had 4 people in that session. How big is your group?
4:25 AM
@inthemanual 7PCs plus guide.
I bumped it up to 15 enemies in five three-body flights.
(I'd seen them take out a Tyrannosaurus (CR8) the previous week, at APL 4, so I knew I needed to beef things up a bit.)
@nitsua60 Seems I missed a message from you a day or two ago about polling some AL DMs about runtime on an adventure. Sounds like "these 10 guys did this" would be an improvement on the current accepted answer of "this one guy (me) did this" and the runner-up "we did this previously, and are on track for X now"
(I suddenly have zero free time since Oathbringer came out)
@JoelHarmon Yeah, I've got eight responses now, giving it another day or two and I'll post.
@nitsua60 Unofficially, I assume I'm still looking at 25-30?
hey there @inthemanual
@JoelHarmon 6 saying 40-49, 1 saying 50-59, 1 saying 100+.
4:34 AM
hey @Shalvenay
@nitsua60 Well then.
@JoelHarmon how're things going?
I didn't think to ask for table-size--feel like that could be a big factor?
@Shalvenay Busy. All my free time is going into the new Sanderson book.
@nitsua60 Table size, group personality, individual personalities, DM style, online/meatspace/mixed, etc would all change the numbers, I'm sure.
I think "my group did X sessions of Y hours each" is a good enough answer to the question; the rest is gravy.
@nitsua60 I'll have 6 next week so that's not too far off. My group is taking out larger than expected threats too
4:51 AM
@inthemanual Cool. And I tend to favor putting more on the table than less. I feel like it's easier to take one's foot off the gas a bit without being toooo obvious about it than it is to step things up mid-fight without appearing to unfairly tilt the table.
5:22 AM
Things can flee if they're "losing" but it's a lot harder to add in reinforcements convincingly, yeah.
My group chases down and kills most things that flee though.
2 hours later…
7:25 AM
Remember, YOU ALL have a role to play in making gaming better. More colorful. More diverse. More interesting. Safer. Welcoming. Fun. Your words & actions are choices - intentional or not.
3 hours later…
10:52 AM
@eimyr I can't remember, have you seen my newest draft of Long Live the King of Monsters?
Would that be a new name for your monster-building game?
@BESW It looks a little bit King of Tokyo: the RPG
@eimyr I only know of that because people mention it to me when I show them my game, but they're definitely drawing on the same primal impetus.
@BESW Also, both games seem to be embracing randomness as a major gameplay factor
11:17 AM
I'm gonna move this whole thing to the Not A Bar.
In other news, @BESW I decided to use Conditions in my conversion.
@Skyler Continue this in the Not A Bar, or continue it nowhere.
yea, that was just input delay between both of us
11:20 AM
@eimyr Ooer. I wanna use conditions some time.
How's it working for you?
It solved all of my problems in one fell swoop
Ooh, I like swell foops.
My biggest complain about Fate's resource system is that you either have Stress tracks which are narratively dull and reset very often and Consequences which are narratively juicy, but bulky, difficult to remove and generally something that you want to avoid.
Cue Sticky Conditions, which are semi-narrative "ticks", reset painlessly when a specific action is taken and generally feel like making effort rather than suffering damage.
This is exactly why I want to try conditions, yes.
[waves foam finger that says "I'm with the choir"]
There's one thing I'm missing still.
something that could say "You have this X thing which doesn't bother you now, but spells certain doom later".
11:36 AM
So, as I understand it, conditions can have customized and explicitly implications, right?
[goes digging in photos]
I'll give you an example.
So let's say I'm a mage and I messed up. I'm getting hit with a Paradox hit (to the value of 2 shifts).
That's how Cthulhu Confidential handles impending doom.
I can choose to take a 2-consequence and be sucky for a bit OR I can choose to put it into a Paradox box, but the next time I get Paradox and it overflows the box, I get a Consequence for the entire the value of the box.
so like a choice of "take bad now or delay to quite likely get something worse"
In ShadowCraft when you fail a roll to control magic, the magic still happens exactly as you like it--but you gain an aspect representing some way channeling the magic has transformed you. This can be beneficial, like gaining armor-tough skin or the ability to walk through walls.
But if you collect five of these magic aspects, the magic consumes you and you become an NPC controlled by the source of your power.
@BESW that kind of stress actually is interesting...
11:44 AM
@Trish Yeah, I really like CC's problem/edge mechanic.
@BESW Dislike. I thoroughly surveyed the Fate magic options and there isn't a single bit there I'd like to reuse
What's the narrative you're trying to depict?
What does "Paradox for later" look or feel like?
So the narrative is that doing magic that produces an effect that is impossible to achieve non-magically (say, stop time or bounce bullets off your skin) makes all sorts of random backlash effects, such as turning your hair to aluminium or teleporting your fingernails to Mars.
the more grandiose the magic you do, the worse the backlash is
but, in the original system, not all Paradox backlashes get resolved immediately - some of it accumulates.
if you accumulate lots of Paradox, gaining more makes you prone to a backlash that will leave your smoking shoes in the middle of a crater
but, if you're really careful, the accumulated PAradox will dissipate over a time
So, the immediate impact of Paradox doesn't get rid of all the Paradox, there's residuals that only dissipate over time?
there is nothing you can do to hasten this process or to remove the Paradox from the accumulated pile, other than sitting and waiting and being super careful about not doing any magic
11:57 AM
@BESW Paradox is basically "reality kicking oyu in the butt for enforcing your will through Magick." It can range from "Milk gets sour around me" (1 point) to "Godbyeandthanksforallthefish" from the mage (when he gets tossed into a paradox realm)
I know the broad concept of Paradox, yes. I played a Prime mage 12 years ago.
2 effects ged rid of paradox instantly: feeding it to a familiar, or getting thrown into a paradox realm. All other stuff... has to wane off. Like Milk gets sour around you for a week, then the point is gone.
so, you get paradox, any amount, one of the three things happen: 1) you don't get a backlash, it goes to the pile, 2) you get a backlash and some (possibly all) of the paradox in the pile joins for extra nastiness, 3) you don't get a backlash and are super careful for the next /period/, the pile slowly dissipates without any adverse effects.
(well, there is a way 3 be a marauder, but then you are a dillusional being that uses paradox to mess with others)
@Trish I don't think we want to get that deep into lore, this is a convo to try and mechanise a gameplay effect of Paradox, rather than discuss its in-universe lore
12:01 PM
Okay, I've got an idea but it'll take a bit to verbalize it coherently.
I'm patient
You've got a Paradox Debt condition with two or three boxes.
When you take Paradox, you can choose to use those boxes like a stress track to absorb some or all of it. Any Paradox you don't absorb with the Debt track causes an immediate effect.
You can clear one box from the track at each [pick an appropriate milestone].
If you take Paradox when you can't absorb it with your Debt track (whether you want to or not), maybe someone will turn your smoking crater into a nice car park.
So it's a very short Paradox-only stress track that triggers Bad Things when it's full whether you try to stuff more into it or not, and is very slow to empty.
So, taking yours as the basis, I'd see it like this:
[][][] Paradox Debt - three slotted Sticky track, each tick is worth 2 shifts, clears at a rate of 1 box per session.
When you take any amount of Paradox you can absorb it into this Track or have it immediately result in a backlash equal to it's shift amount.
If you cannot contain the Paradox in the Debt track, increase the Paradox shifts by everything you have in the track and then clear it.
I think I'll need to add some consequence slots, perhaps another mild/moderate/severe to contain the effects of Paradox because otherwise my characters will fill their regular slots extremely quickly.
12:19 PM
I was thinking that Paradox would often be manifested as situational costs rather than consequences.
Quite the opposite.
Unless I misunderstand the situational cost.
In Mage, Paradox doesn't really say "you've cast a Fireball successfully, but it also exploded your car", it rather says "you've cast a Fireball successfully, but it also made you see upside down for a week"
Okay, I was exposed to Paradox as more of a catastrophic one-and-done.
12:35 PM
I see.
In the book I think there are four or five Paradox backlash types in order of increasing severity. Let me think, there's straight up damage, then a Flaw, which is like a lasting inconvenience up to a serious problem, then you can be visited by a malevolent Paradox spirit which dukes it out on you, you can be teleported into your own personal Paradox hell for punishment, you can summon a devastating Paradox Storm which randomizes your immediate surroundings...
and finally, if you accumulate lots of Paradox very slowly you can fall into a Quiet, which is a state where you can't consciously use magic, but you do it subconsciously, manifesting your beliefs and delusions as real world ephemera.
Ooh, interesting. That... makes me re-think the Debt track.
Assign each box a different effect, and when you take Paradox you suffer the effect in the highest marked box.
in Fate I'd like the choice to be "do I take a Flaw now or do I risk summoning a Spirit later?"
@BESW Now you're thinking PbtA
@eimyr Yes, I think what I just said will do exactly that.
You've got a Debt track that can absorb Paradox stress, and empties, as above. But when you take stress, you suffer the effect of the highest-marked box on the Debt track.
@BESW OK, why would anyone put anything in that track then?
Because if you don't have any boxes there's still a "you took stress from Paradox" effect that's overriden by marking boxes.
12:46 PM
yes, but it seems awfully better to never put anything in the track
Probably "Mark a condition box to absorb the stress."
Then the first box is Flaw, the second is Paradox Spirit, and so on. So if you think you can manage your paradox well enough and you've got enough conditions already marked....
So, for none boxed checked, it's "check boxes to absorb or gain Damage (regular Stress or Consequences)" and then "when you can't absorb, gain Damage normally AND suffer additional backlash according to the highest ticked box"
1:04 PM
I'd probably say that stress from Paradox can't be absorbed by normal stress tracks, only conditions/consequences and the Debt track.
I think the regular number of Consequences is still a bit too few for my liking
How important do you want Paradox to be for your game?
Is it something that happens a lot, and/or is it something that gets a lot of table time devoted to dealing with when it does happen?
it happens a lot AND sometimes it happens so much it becomes the #1 problem present at the table
I want the players to not be afraid to take little paradox hits
but at the same time I want them to be mercilessly punished by taking big hits
but for every hit to have a juicy narrative consequence (right now or piling up for later)
Okay, so. Going back to narrative.
Paradox debt is basically a gamble that you can control your Paradox gain in the near future better than you're controlling it right now, right?
yes, and it's a way to say "oh, it will be fine, I'll be careful in the future"
one of the staples of playing Mage is to have every character be a ticking bomb of Paradox
1:13 PM
How about... a Paradox stress track. When you take Paradox, give it weapon:X where X is the value of the highest box currently checked.
Go ahead, absorb a shift of Paradox. It's just going to add 1 extra shift to every other Paradox hit you take for the rest of the session and then it'll go away.
Whoops, need to absorb another shift of Paradox this session? Now it's up to +2 shifts per hit going forward. But it's fine, you can be careful.
I think I like the previous version better
I just feel that a few more consequence slots will help balance the equation of constantly having to deal with Paradox hits
1:42 PM
howdy howdy
had an epic game last night. DM pulled out Power Word: kill
Power Point: Slide.
@kviiri Having recently taught several PowerPoint classes, I can attest that there's little difference.
1:46 PM
@BESW I'm not too big on computer slides myself (I find that they often become the thing in a prez, where they're supposed to be a supporting thing) and I still feel filthy about having wall of text slides in my Monday prez :S
@NautArch But back to the topic, who got the worst of it?
@kviiri Our cleric. Had 90 HP..
Ooh, sudden jerk.
@NautArch RIP
Good thing our trusty paladin (me!) had Revivify prepared :)
DM thought it had a save and then showed me the spell as he cast it and asked if I had any words for the cleric.
"See you soon"
I didn't get much big hitting in, but I came up huge in my support spells. Our sorcerer was paralyzed, but I was able to come in to cast lesser restoration.
2:01 PM
I had a really good game yesterday too
Introduced friends to AW
@BESW heehee. this is lovely.
@doppelspooker It may not work for Paradox, but I'd like to find another application for the concept.
Maybe with an additional "And it gives you weapon:X on your own attacks" to really bribe folks to walk the edge.
@BESW That sounds like a pyromancer thing! I don't remember which game it was, but there was a multiplayer video game that came out with a character who could wield fire. As they used pyromancy, they would increase a "burn" stat which meant they themselves were on fire. They took damage from it, but it made all their pyromancy more powerful at the same time.
Then there were some powerful abilities that could "use up" their burn, by resetting it to 0 but doing something one-off that was more powerful the more burn they had on them.
I was thinking more saidin, but that works too!
@kviiri how did it go?
2:16 PM
@NautArch Well!
Taking damage every turn would be problematic for Fate to handle -- it'd be more fun to have powerful abilities you could make more powerful in exchange for taking some harm -- but pyromancers getting extra damage from something proportionate to their heat/burn/whatever would be nice.
nice! sounds very interesting
It was fun. They asked if we could continue the game later, which is a good sign.
> Friendly fire. You can't be compelled because you're on fire, because you're just used to that. You don't take stress from fire, either. If you are on fire, add the value of your highest checked stress box as a weapon rating to fire attacks made by you, and to all physical attacks targeting you.
2:22 PM
@BESW Lovely XD
Nice name.
> Fire works. Whenever you gain an aspect representing being on fire, you get a free invoke on that aspect regardless of how you acquired it.
When you are on fire, roll+cool. On a 10+, it's ok. You've been on fire before, haven't you? On a 7-9, stop, drop and roll, or take 1-harm (ap), your choice. On a 6-, you're like, actually on fire.
> Hot-tempered. When you fail a social action by 3 or more, gain the boost On fire.
What is this fire-based campaign and why is it?
> Fire fighter. You can extinguish any fire by physically attacking it.
@Magician I was brainstorming Fate-style paradox mechanics with Eimyr, and then Doppel and I decided one of them was better suited for a self-immolating pyromancer.
2:28 PM
> Firewatch. Once per game session you can gain a Fate Point by watching something that's On Fire.
> Fire warden. You can use Provoke and Rapport to control existing fires.
> The fire within. When you take physical damage for the first time in a scene, gain the boost On fire. If you spend a fate point, it's an aspect with one free invocation instead.
> Fire hose. If you are on fire, your fire spells can reach an extra zone further than normal.
> Fire away. You can extinguish any fire with a successful social check.
> Fire Hose 2. You may sacrifice an item in your possession in order to put an On Fire aspect on yourself.
2:33 PM
> Baptism by fire. You can spend a fate point to share the effects of a stunt that requires you to be on fire with a nearby ally who is also on fire.
> Fire at will. You can spend a fate point to cause any individual named Will within your line of sight to spontaneously combust.
> Fire when ready. If you choose to go last in initiative, you can set one creature, object, or zone within your line of sight on fire at the start of your first turn.
> Fire at will 2. You can choose to have opponents defend using Will when you attack them with fire. It still deals physical stress, though.
> Bavarian fire drill. You can spend a fate point to convince any number of individuals within your immediate vicinity that they are on fire.
> Hold Fire You may move an On Fire aspect with all its free invokes from one character to another.
2:37 PM
> Flame wreath. If you give up your turn in a conflict, anyone in your line of sight who is on fire must defend against a +4 fire attack if they move before the start of your next turn.
(That's an old reference, that.)
> Heat Gun. When you succeed with style on an Attack using Shoot, you may set the target On Fire.
Fire, walk with me.
@BESW I will not move when Flame Wreath is cast or the raid... blows... uuuuuup.
Firewatch. Once per game session you can gain a Fate Point by walking around a heck of a lot.
> Everything burns. You can use fire to Overcome any aspect.
2:47 PM
> Fire, walk with me. When you change zones, you can move any on fire type zone aspects from the zone you leave to the zone you enter.
> Sick Burn. Once per storyline you can turn any Consequence into an On Fire aspect with as many free invokes as the consequence rating. The Consequence is then removed.
> Fire, walk with me 2. You can use your turn to change one on fire aspect into a Fireling creature. Its number of stress boxes and its approach ratings are all equal to the number of free invokes the aspect had.
@BESW I discovered my spirit meme
me: just start a new sentence me to me: use another em dash
@doppelspooker That's me in the hood.
@eimyr so it's you wreaking havoc on my writing!!
get outta my mind!
2:54 PM
@doppelspooker [snerk]
@doppelspooker you meant: so it's you — wreaking havoc on my writing!!
@eimyr [scream]
> A song of ice and fire. When invoked, all characters (yourself included) must spend a fate point or die in an incredibly gruesome way within a day.
@Magician this and others would be great for a supers game.
@Yuuki haaaa
> Burn it down. When you concede you can choose to inflict, on everyone in your zone, stress equal to the number of fate points you gain by conceding.
2:59 PM
@doppelspooker It's actually a set up for my next one.
okay, maybe spoilers, look at post history if you're interested.
@Yuuki (spoilers for what?)
I feel like telling you what it's spoilers for is by definition also a spoiler.
@BESW plus "You can choose to take one fewer fate point to force them to be unable to absorb that harm with stress boxes."
> Fireflight. While you are on fire you can fly. You must succeed on an Overcome check with Athletics to avoid setting any zone you fly over on fire (difficulty determined by flammability of the zone's contents).
@BESW this is cute. (and so many of these stunts are making me keen on actually having a pyromancer character.)
3:06 PM
> Combustion engine. You can set any vehicle you use on fire. This doesn't compromise the vehicle's integrity until you stop using it.
@BESW [lights vehicle on fire] [drives for twelve hours straight] [gets out, vehicle collapses into a pile of parts virtually immediately]
> Hotfoot. You can move through any number of unobstructed zones you want for free on your turn (instead of just one), provided every zone is on fire.
>Thunderbird. You can fly, as long as you are charged. Contact with any grounded bject needs a concentration check to not loose your charged status.
3:25 PM
> Feeling Hot, Hot, Hot. You can have more than one On Fire Aspect. When you gain a third remove them all, clear all your Stress Tracks and gain a Feeling Hot, Hot, Hot Aspect with two free invokes.
While on fire, you will be warm for the rest of your life.
4:05 PM
@BESW Before there was Powerpoint, we used to suffer "death by acetate" during overly long briefings. Now, it is death by Powerpoint. (re your Having recently taught several PowerPoint classes, I can attest that there's little difference)
Acetate. You mean transparencies on an overhead projector?
i'd forgotten about those
5:03 PM
@Maximillian Yes. Death by acetate. It burns .....
5:27 PM
@BESW @doppelspooker Urgh, one thing I now HATE in Fate is that it still has difficulty ratings entirely dependent on GM fiat.
@eimyr that's something i struggle with too, but i've found that it's easier to determine difficulties when i have a strong, strong understanding of the tropes involved.
in a stargate game i find it easier to come to grips with what's difficult and what's difficult-er.
@BESW one problem I have with Fate Magic now is that there is a discrepancy between an enabling Overcome action and a helping Create an Advantage. Let's say you're trying to repair a broken engine, but you have zero tools etc. You can use Matter magic to make whatever you need on the spot - cool. If I treat it as an Overcome, then I could say that once you're able to manufacture literally anything on the spot, the difficulty of the subsequent Repair roll is trivial or not even needed.
OTOH i've been thinking about this for a while and stuff like armor values in D&D is GM fiat too, just made ahead of time, or made by the rules authors.
there's games like Dungeon World which don't have fiat-ed difficulty though
But if I treat it as Creating an Advantage... then all I can say is that it gives you one or two free invokes for a subsequent roll.
@doppelspooker PbtA generally doesn't have difficulty at all, same with some other indie games.
@eimyr that's definitely a Create Advantage action to create a Spanner aspect.
Because you're not moving past an obstacle, you're trying to create advantage that will help you move past an obstacle.
5:34 PM
@doppelspooker Why Spanner? Why not: A Portable Factory Of Any Necessary Tools And Parts?
And it's the kind of thing that's probably not interesting to have them roll for (because failure wouldn't be interesting), so I'd just have them automatically succeed.
@eimyr Can mages actually do that?
@doppelspooker routinely
I dunno then, not familiar with that part of the fiction.
so, a starting mage specialising in Matter can transmute just about anything into something similar (say, metal to metal) and have something take any shape they want - it's only up to their engineering knowledge to literally manufacture a perfect crankshaft from a pile of scrap, and it's not even that difficult.
@doppelspooker PbtA's lack of anything resembling a DC doesn't mean there isn't a sort of fiated difficulty: The enemies, which are completely up to the DM, are very relevant for the difficulty of fights, and the DM can also adjust how many soft vs. hard moves they make.
5:38 PM
@ACuriousMind that's true o:
It's still fiat, just fiat that determines fiction, not numbers
that's an unresolved problem from the original game as well - you could basically say that you can "overcome" to teleport enemy's heart to your hand.
and avoid making it a by-the-numbers Attack
@ACuriousMind there are specific rules for making soft and hard moves, so if you want to spam hard moves you need to establish this in the narrative first by foreshadowing or describing narrative resistance
I'd also say not all PbtA games are the same in that regard and some definitely give the GM greater freedom in making moves than others
@eimyr Sure - I didn't want to suggest you're allowed to make hard moves without having the threat established beforehand
Maybe it's less about the amount of soft vs. hard moves but more about how hard the hard ones actually are
@BESW especially, but also anyone else that plays Fate: Do you have any game transcripts I could look over? There's some things I see used a lot in stunts that didn't come up in my attempts to play, and I want to see how they play out in a game run by an expert
@inthemanual so it's definitely not by an expert but you can scroll to the bottom of BESW's bookmarked conversations to see the EF### games we played when Fate Core had just come out.
that was four years ago though, we've learned a lot since then.
You might also be interested in watching some Geeks & Sundry:
5:49 PM
I'm mostly concerned about zones. They never came up. Any conflict ended up being players grouping up around a bad guy and beating the snot out of him.
I am incapable of typing "committed" correctly. I have to use auto-correct/spell-check every time. Something about the double t after the double m doesn't gel in my brain.
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