@Skyler The most widespread German system, The Dark Eye, has all rolls (except damage rolls) follow the rule of "lower is better". I have not had any problems playing systems with "higher is better" with players accustomed to that, so I don't think there's any problem with it in the other direction, either.
Generally I just think it'd be interesting to make an expert reliable, and make an amatuer at something still conceivable of doing it, but with added potential risks to themselves.
@ACuriousMind He's thinking that with high-number-better systems, an untrained character is literally unable to hit high difficulty targets, while with low-number-better systems anyone can potentially roll low enough to do a thing.
In Fate, a roll for an action isn't a binary pass/fail outcome. It can result in failure at cost (3 or more under the target); failure (2 or less under the target); tie (hitting the target); success (2 or less over the target); and success with style (3 or more over the target).
And there are a number of ways to negotiate your way up the scale if you roll poorly or don't have the raw modifiers to accomplish your goal.
At its simplest, if you fail a roll you can suggest to the party that you succeed anyway, but a Bad Thing also happens.
Also, the table is generally encouraged to argue collectively about what counts as "with style" or "at cost" instead of the GM deciding it. I think that's maybe an even larger difference to D&D style tests than the non-binariness of the outcomes
@ACuriousMind Especially given that the binariness of the DnD outcomes comes completely from the DM, not the system. There is nothing stopping a DM from using the various levels of success.
For instance, PbtA games also implement "success at cost", but it feels very different to Fate because there it's explicitly the GM who is supposed to offer the player a hard choice between several outcomes with "cost", and sometimes the moves themselves already contain a rather strict list of what outcomes you can choose from.
@GreySage Well, let's not act like being able to add extra stuff to a system is a feature of the system, especially in a system that already tries to present itself as exhaustive.
@GreySage Well, the binariness does come from the system, but it feels less like a violation of its design principles to introduce levels of success than it would be to allow the group to negotiate as equals what the outcome of an action is.
@ACuriousMind that being said failure at a cost is really dangerous in DnD at the lower levels in particular, since that's almost always felt a lot more than success with style and it's easy to get low rolls
@Skyler The GM (Game Master; "Dungeon Master" is a D&D-specific term of art) is responsible for flow and coherency, and representing the setting. Often in Fate the scenarios are also determined with a high level of collaboration, though that's not necessary.
@ACuriousMind I think 13th Age came closest.
@trogdor Going by the "if it says it's a dragon, do you argue?" metric, this is definitely a dragon:
Long-lost alligator snapping turtle rediscovered 30 years after it was thought extinct in Illinois http://bit.ly/2htpXY6
Or, well, have a discussion about what sort of game you're running. At some tables (and in some systems), it is the general expectation that failure will result in character death
@BESW I'll grant that loss of hit points is not a very fun or narratively interesting consequence, but it is a "consequence without crippling/debilitating/killing players".
@BESW Sure, but what sort of consequence that does not debilitate the character in some way wouldn't be a mere countdown to a consequence that does debilitate them? I guess I was trying to get a feeling what @Skyler was actually asking for, maybe I'm parsing things too literally here
@ACuriousMind A bloody nose, a blinding need to prove oneself, a fear of robots, needing to load a new clip of bullets, losing faith in one's friend... there's a LOT of space between "I'm fine until I run out of hit points completely" and "anything that happens to me is debilitating."
In our last Fate game, @doppelspooker spent the last third of a firefight with his leg trapped under rubble, but he was still able to shoot enemies and help strategize.
Cthulhu Confidential, being a system designed for one-on-one play for cynical noir storytelling, makes an art out of having awful things happen to the PC without removing their agency (because then there's nobody to continue the story).
btw, in fate what are biggest numbers you tend to see. Like in DnD after everything is said and done seeing 35s is quite a rarity until maybe really late game (i'd presume)
@Skyler Fate's dice provide a bell curve from -4 to +4, with a very strong tendency toward the middle of the curve. Skill modifiers are usually between +0 and +3, up to +5 in really pulpy adventure games.
I think the highest difficulty target I've ever seen was about +15, and that was RIDICULOUS.
about the most difficult fights I've made for players were other shades of other PCs
even with softened stats you'd need like something like a 5 on 3 ratio for an engagement like that be possible
The first time I tested it out I actually used a shade based on my character and with just my standard 1 action vs 4 other players 3 of them got down to like 10-15 health
@Miniman I shaved off like 20% and gave the shades one other ability, double movement in shadows and the ability to hide for up to a turn in the shadows
@Skyler No, I mean, if they were exact copies, 5v5, logically, must be winnable. Because if it wasn't, it wouldn't be for either side, which doesn't make any sense.
@Miniman yea, like my character had a decently nova build and a lot of retaliatory damage built in so ironically enough he would have excelled at those encounters
Just seemed to happen that way, but I do think I dumbed down the fight a little too much. Although they were only level 2, their guide is pretty strong.
None died, though. All rescued in suitably-heroic fashion.
E.g. a druid-cum-panther was dragged off the edge and plummetted. Unbeknownst to the rest of the party he quickly activated a charm (gift from elsewhere) that feather falled him. On his next turn everyone else bemoaned his death... until--with his climb speed--he came racing right back up the side of the tower and burst back into the fight =)
@nitsua60 Seems I missed a message from you a day or two ago about polling some AL DMs about runtime on an adventure. Sounds like "these 10 guys did this" would be an improvement on the current accepted answer of "this one guy (me) did this" and the runner-up "we did this previously, and are on track for X now"
(I suddenly have zero free time since Oathbringer came out)
@inthemanual Cool. And I tend to favor putting more on the table than less. I feel like it's easier to take one's foot off the gas a bit without being toooo obvious about it than it is to step things up mid-fight without appearing to unfairly tilt the table.
Remember, YOU ALL have a role to play in making gaming better. More colorful. More diverse. More interesting. Safer. Welcoming. Fun. Your words & actions are choices - intentional or not.
My biggest complain about Fate's resource system is that you either have Stress tracks which are narratively dull and reset very often and Consequences which are narratively juicy, but bulky, difficult to remove and generally something that you want to avoid.
Cue Sticky Conditions, which are semi-narrative "ticks", reset painlessly when a specific action is taken and generally feel like making effort rather than suffering damage.
I can choose to take a 2-consequence and be sucky for a bit OR I can choose to put it into a Paradox box, but the next time I get Paradox and it overflows the box, I get a Consequence for the entire the value of the box.
so like a choice of "take bad now or delay to quite likely get something worse"
In ShadowCraft when you fail a roll to control magic, the magic still happens exactly as you like it--but you gain an aspect representing some way channeling the magic has transformed you. This can be beneficial, like gaining armor-tough skin or the ability to walk through walls.
But if you collect five of these magic aspects, the magic consumes you and you become an NPC controlled by the source of your power.
So the narrative is that doing magic that produces an effect that is impossible to achieve non-magically (say, stop time or bounce bullets off your skin) makes all sorts of random backlash effects, such as turning your hair to aluminium or teleporting your fingernails to Mars.
the more grandiose the magic you do, the worse the backlash is
but, in the original system, not all Paradox backlashes get resolved immediately - some of it accumulates.
if you accumulate lots of Paradox, gaining more makes you prone to a backlash that will leave your smoking shoes in the middle of a crater
but, if you're really careful, the accumulated PAradox will dissipate over a time
there is nothing you can do to hasten this process or to remove the Paradox from the accumulated pile, other than sitting and waiting and being super careful about not doing any magic
@BESW Paradox is basically "reality kicking oyu in the butt for enforcing your will through Magick." It can range from "Milk gets sour around me" (1 point) to "Godbyeandthanksforallthefish" from the mage (when he gets tossed into a paradox realm)
2 effects ged rid of paradox instantly: feeding it to a familiar, or getting thrown into a paradox realm. All other stuff... has to wane off. Like Milk gets sour around you for a week, then the point is gone.
so, you get paradox, any amount, one of the three things happen: 1) you don't get a backlash, it goes to the pile, 2) you get a backlash and some (possibly all) of the paradox in the pile joins for extra nastiness, 3) you don't get a backlash and are super careful for the next /period/, the pile slowly dissipates without any adverse effects.
@Trish I don't think we want to get that deep into lore, this is a convo to try and mechanise a gameplay effect of Paradox, rather than discuss its in-universe lore
You've got a Paradox Debt condition with two or three boxes.
When you take Paradox, you can choose to use those boxes like a stress track to absorb some or all of it. Any Paradox you don't absorb with the Debt track causes an immediate effect.
You can clear one box from the track at each [pick an appropriate milestone].
If you take Paradox when you can't absorb it with your Debt track (whether you want to or not), maybe someone will turn your smoking crater into a nice car park.
So it's a very short Paradox-only stress track that triggers Bad Things when it's full whether you try to stuff more into it or not, and is very slow to empty.
So, taking yours as the basis, I'd see it like this:
[][][] Paradox Debt - three slotted Sticky track, each tick is worth 2 shifts, clears at a rate of 1 box per session.
When you take any amount of Paradox you can absorb it into this Track or have it immediately result in a backlash equal to it's shift amount.
If you cannot contain the Paradox in the Debt track, increase the Paradox shifts by everything you have in the track and then clear it.
I think I'll need to add some consequence slots, perhaps another mild/moderate/severe to contain the effects of Paradox because otherwise my characters will fill their regular slots extremely quickly.
In Mage, Paradox doesn't really say "you've cast a Fireball successfully, but it also exploded your car", it rather says "you've cast a Fireball successfully, but it also made you see upside down for a week"
In the book I think there are four or five Paradox backlash types in order of increasing severity. Let me think, there's straight up damage, then a Flaw, which is like a lasting inconvenience up to a serious problem, then you can be visited by a malevolent Paradox spirit which dukes it out on you, you can be teleported into your own personal Paradox hell for punishment, you can summon a devastating Paradox Storm which randomizes your immediate surroundings...
and finally, if you accumulate lots of Paradox very slowly you can fall into a Quiet, which is a state where you can't consciously use magic, but you do it subconsciously, manifesting your beliefs and delusions as real world ephemera.
@eimyr Yes, I think what I just said will do exactly that.
You've got a Debt track that can absorb Paradox stress, and empties, as above. But when you take stress, you suffer the effect of the highest-marked box on the Debt track.
Probably "Mark a condition box to absorb the stress."
Then the first box is Flaw, the second is Paradox Spirit, and so on. So if you think you can manage your paradox well enough and you've got enough conditions already marked....
So, for none boxed checked, it's "check boxes to absorb or gain Damage (regular Stress or Consequences)" and then "when you can't absorb, gain Damage normally AND suffer additional backlash according to the highest ticked box"
How about... a Paradox stress track. When you take Paradox, give it weapon:X where X is the value of the highest box currently checked.
Go ahead, absorb a shift of Paradox. It's just going to add 1 extra shift to every other Paradox hit you take for the rest of the session and then it'll go away.
Whoops, need to absorb another shift of Paradox this session? Now it's up to +2 shifts per hit going forward. But it's fine, you can be careful.
@BESW I'm not too big on computer slides myself (I find that they often become the thing in a prez, where they're supposed to be a supporting thing) and I still feel filthy about having wall of text slides in my Monday prez :S
@NautArch But back to the topic, who got the worst of it?
Good thing our trusty paladin (me!) had Revivify prepared :)
DM thought it had a save and then showed me the spell as he cast it and asked if I had any words for the cleric.
"See you soon"
I didn't get much big hitting in, but I came up huge in my support spells. Our sorcerer was paralyzed, but I was able to come in to cast lesser restoration.
@BESW That sounds like a pyromancer thing! I don't remember which game it was, but there was a multiplayer video game that came out with a character who could wield fire. As they used pyromancy, they would increase a "burn" stat which meant they themselves were on fire. They took damage from it, but it made all their pyromancy more powerful at the same time.
Then there were some powerful abilities that could "use up" their burn, by resetting it to 0 but doing something one-off that was more powerful the more burn they had on them.
Taking damage every turn would be problematic for Fate to handle -- it'd be more fun to have powerful abilities you could make more powerful in exchange for taking some harm -- but pyromancers getting extra damage from something proportionate to their heat/burn/whatever would be nice.
> Friendly fire. You can't be compelled because you're on fire, because you're just used to that. You don't take stress from fire, either. If you are on fire, add the value of your highest checked stress box as a weapon rating to fire attacks made by you, and to all physical attacks targeting you.
When you are on fire, roll+cool. On a 10+, it's ok. You've been on fire before, haven't you? On a 7-9, stop, drop and roll, or take 1-harm (ap), your choice. On a 6-, you're like, actually on fire.
@Magician I was brainstorming Fate-style paradox mechanics with Eimyr, and then Doppel and I decided one of them was better suited for a self-immolating pyromancer.
> The fire within. When you take physical damage for the first time in a scene, gain the boost On fire. If you spend a fate point, it's an aspect with one free invocation instead.
> Fire when ready. If you choose to go last in initiative, you can set one creature, object, or zone within your line of sight on fire at the start of your first turn.
> Flame wreath. If you give up your turn in a conflict, anyone in your line of sight who is on fire must defend against a +4 fire attack if they move before the start of your next turn.
> Sick Burn. Once per storyline you can turn any Consequence into an On Fire aspect with as many free invokes as the consequence rating. The Consequence is then removed.
> Fire, walk with me 2. You can use your turn to change one on fire aspect into a Fireling creature. Its number of stress boxes and its approach ratings are all equal to the number of free invokes the aspect had.
> Fireflight. While you are on fire you can fly. You must succeed on an Overcome check with Athletics to avoid setting any zone you fly over on fire (difficulty determined by flammability of the zone's contents).
> Feeling Hot, Hot, Hot. You can have more than one On Fire Aspect. When you gain a third remove them all, clear all your Stress Tracks and gain a Feeling Hot, Hot, Hot Aspect with two free invokes.
@BESW Before there was Powerpoint, we used to suffer "death by acetate" during overly long briefings. Now, it is death by Powerpoint. (re your Having recently taught several PowerPoint classes, I can attest that there's little difference)
@eimyr that's something i struggle with too, but i've found that it's easier to determine difficulties when i have a strong, strong understanding of the tropes involved.
in a stargate game i find it easier to come to grips with what's difficult and what's difficult-er.
@BESW one problem I have with Fate Magic now is that there is a discrepancy between an enabling Overcome action and a helping Create an Advantage. Let's say you're trying to repair a broken engine, but you have zero tools etc. You can use Matter magic to make whatever you need on the spot - cool. If I treat it as an Overcome, then I could say that once you're able to manufacture literally anything on the spot, the difficulty of the subsequent Repair roll is trivial or not even needed.
OTOH i've been thinking about this for a while and stuff like armor values in D&D is GM fiat too, just made ahead of time, or made by the rules authors.
there's games like Dungeon World which don't have fiat-ed difficulty though
And it's the kind of thing that's probably not interesting to have them roll for (because failure wouldn't be interesting), so I'd just have them automatically succeed.
so, a starting mage specialising in Matter can transmute just about anything into something similar (say, metal to metal) and have something take any shape they want - it's only up to their engineering knowledge to literally manufacture a perfect crankshaft from a pile of scrap, and it's not even that difficult.
@doppelspooker PbtA's lack of anything resembling a DC doesn't mean there isn't a sort of fiated difficulty: The enemies, which are completely up to the DM, are very relevant for the difficulty of fights, and the DM can also adjust how many soft vs. hard moves they make.
that's an unresolved problem from the original game as well - you could basically say that you can "overcome" to teleport enemy's heart to your hand.
and avoid making it a by-the-numbers Attack
@ACuriousMind there are specific rules for making soft and hard moves, so if you want to spam hard moves you need to establish this in the narrative first by foreshadowing or describing narrative resistance
I'd also say not all PbtA games are the same in that regard and some definitely give the GM greater freedom in making moves than others
@BESW especially, but also anyone else that plays Fate: Do you have any game transcripts I could look over? There's some things I see used a lot in stunts that didn't come up in my attempts to play, and I want to see how they play out in a game run by an expert
I'm mostly concerned about zones. They never came up. Any conflict ended up being players grouping up around a bad guy and beating the snot out of him.
I am incapable of typing "committed" correctly. I have to use auto-correct/spell-check every time. Something about the double t after the double m doesn't gel in my brain.
