TRPG General Chat

doppelgreener

00:22

@BESW pathfinder → dungeons-and-dragons-third-and-three-quarters-edition

3

KorvinStarmast

@tuskiomi Good Tabletop foods that don't put on the pounds?...My wife has us on a diet by Isabel De Los Rios that is exactly that. Most excellent, I highly endorse it. (Son has lost 16 lbs, me 8, wife (we don't discuss these things, ya see ...) Called "Beyond Fat" but you can eat some fats.

daze413

00:42

dungeons-and-dragons-basic-expert-master-immortal-rules, dang still too long

nitsua60

dungeons-and-dragons-boxed-sets-from-the-80s-sometimes-called-redbox-no-not-magenta-thats-bx-not-becmi

2

gonna need a bigger tag

daze413

01:01

snacks > food-that-we-put-in-our-mouths-while-gaming

Ofc, I am just being silly :)

nitsua60

@Zachiel I don't generally butter my popcorn. Not when making it as a routine snack, that is. If it's family "movie night" (the one where we watch movies, not the one where we make movies), of course, that might occasion butter.

Miniman

@nitsua60 6What about paprika?

nitsua60

(Though sometimes I'll make a popcorn snack and drop one or two chocolate chips into the bowl and stir it around--that's some good still-low-cal snacking!)

@Miniman Never tried it.

(On popcorn, that is. I've consumed paprika.)

Miniman

@nitsua60 It's worth giving it a go.

Although it works better with some sort of oil for adhesion.

daze413

@nitsua60 being heavier than popcorn, wouldn't they just kinda fall to the bottom?

BESW

01:13

@nitsua60 Garlic salt and curry powder.

Miniman

@daze413 Presumably you do it while the popcorn is still warm.

nitsua60

^^

daze413

Ah, I was imagining you'd make it into a mini-game of "find the chocolate chip in the popcorn stack"

nitsua60

game-design-incl-chocolate-chips

daze413

@nitsua60 meta Q: "Should game-design-incl-chocolate-chips be separated into game-design and chocolate-chips"

nitsua60

01:26

No. Once you've mixed those chips in, there's no getting them separate again.

nitsua60

02:05

@Miniman done

Miniman

02:18

@nitsua60 Impressive as always!

nitsua60

@Miniman Feels a little like re-treading old ground, frankly. It would have been interesting if any of the features of Phandalin were off-average, such that the production multiplier ended up not being the same 0.5 that you ballparked . Heavy forest, or social unrest, for example =)

Miniman

@nitsua60 Whenever adventurers are involved, social unrest isn't far away.

3

Adeptus

07:10

@Ben Cohen the Barbarian! There was a group cosplaying the Silver Horde at the Discworld con on the weekend.

doppelgreener

08:32

@Adeptus brilliant!

(discworld con!? i wanna go!)

@Miniman ... It is now my headcanon that Marthin Luther (of the 1500s) was an adventurer, potentially an OD&D cleric/thief.

eimyr

09:54

@doppelgreener thanks for the suggestions re: moves in AfterA. I wonder what you would say about Night Witches moves, out of curiosity.

doppelgreener

10:09

@eimyr glad to be able to help! I haven't read Night Witches.

eimyr

@doppelgreener It's my primary inspiration for AfterA. Allow me to quote one of the moves:

TEMPT FATE
WHEN YOU TEMPT FATE roll +guts. On a 10+ you do it. On a 7-9
you do it but not without cost - The GM can offer you a worse
outcome, a hard bargain, or an ugly choice.
On a miss you take harm as established and are marked in
addition to failing. Fate is a suka.

@doppelgreener How do you like it?

BESW

10:48

@GuillaumeLefranc Hi!

eimyr

@GuillaumeLefranc Hello! What's up?

The Oracle

0

Q: Should we synonymise [larp-mes-camarilla] -> [minds-eye-society]?

We have a larp-mes-camarilla tag for a LARP organisation devoted to Mind's Eye Theatre (minds-eye-theatre), a World of Darkness LARP game & ruleset. However, the tag's own wiki suggests this name might not be the best name for the tag: The Mind's Eye Society (formerly known as the Camarilla) ...

doppelgreener

12:01

@TheOracle <- @ObliviousSage @Jadasc @Flamma @Kaine @user2754 Hi! I hope things are well for you all. As you're the sole current users of the larp-mes-camarilla tag I'm interested to hear your perspective on that meta about potentially renaming the tag to reflect the Mind's Eye Society name. Could you let me know what you think about the rename if you're comfortable doing so? (Here or in meta, however you'd prefer?)

nwp

I thought you can only ping up to 2 people.

doppelgreener

@nwp In comments you can only ping one, in chat you can ping any number.

As a diamond moderator I also get a super-ping that lets me ping anyone in the network, not just those individuals who have been active in the room recently.

nwp

That's cheating. (time to apply as a moderator)

Ben

MOD ABUSE! MOD ABUSE! :P

nwp

I'm sorry, I didn't mean to abuse doppelgreener with baseless accusations.

doppelgreener

12:09

It's definitely cheating.

@Ben Thank you for your input, friendly citizen! Please report in to the nearest incineration utility to further debrief the staff members on what you know and who told you.

2

Miniman

@doppelgreener I hear there's cake!

Ben

I know nothing and it was personal opinion

doppelgreener

@Ben Very good, citizen.

@Miniman There is!

CM_Dayton

The cake is a lie! (Seriously. It was carrot cake. And stale. Sigh.)

jwacalex

good day

trogdor

12:20

the cake isn't a lie, a robot had it is all

CM_Dayton

In college, one night I was talking RPG stuff with my roommate. In the midst of the conversation, he cut himself a slice of homemade chocolate cake. Took a BIIIG bite. And then realized it was moldy. He said it tasted sort of like broccoli. That cake truly was a lie.

Jadasc

@doppelgreener Hi, there. The MES in the tag is meant to represent "Mind's Eye Society," but the most common name for that organization is still "The Camarilla." In fact, at the national meeting a few weeks ago, the Board of Directors said they were in negotiations with the new White Wolf to regain access to that name. I'd hold off for now.

doppelgreener

12:39

@Jadasc Thanks very much! And for the meta reply. :)

eimyr

@doppelgreener Complaint and grievance procedure is a very easy, single-lane process. Users fill a form and take a number. User entrance is there and ground beef(1) comes out over there. (1) Beef contents vary.

doppelgreener

12:57

@eimyr Information on where nutrition comes from in the bunker is high clearance. Knowing that nutrition comes from somewhere is also high clearance.

Adam

@CM_Dayton I had a similar experience with a croissant that I had lying around. To me, it was quite metallic. Not quite as strong as, say, blood, but definitely not right.

eimyr

@doppelgreener Is existence of nutrition secret?

doppelgreener

@eimyr Please check in with yellow clearance disposal squads for whether you have clearance to ask that question.

eimyr

@doppelgreener Have you seen the NW move?

doppelgreener

Oh! Right!

[scrolls]

@eimyr sounds workable in its constructs.

eimyr

13:01

@doppelgreener It's incredibly pithy and tehre are some moves which you could argue have overlap.

doppelgreener

@eimyr inside of the war story genre I know for sure what kinds of things are "tempting fate" though.

that saying is a well-known construct with some pretty solid ideas attached, so i can rely on people knowing what it means when i use it, and knowing what isn't tempting fate.

eimyr

@doppelgreener Yes, but it was also used when I tried to beat up another (larger, stronger) soldier.

I didn't post it as a rebuttal to your call for clarity, but more as a commentary on how clarity can be emergent if the setting is well understood.

doppelgreener

Yeah, it definitely can be.

Having well-understood narrative conventions means we can understand what is meant by a thing.

eimyr

Anyway, I think I'm going to scrap Act Like a Hero completely.

and Defy Authority should be defined by dismissing a reasonable request, while Stand Tall is acting above your station while not being defiant. I'm using your "no, I can't pay this tax, let's renegotiate" as a litmus test

KorvinStarmast

@Miniman Whenever adventurers are involved, social unrest isn't far away Old Monty Python line "It's people like you what cause unrest" ... maybe the writer for that sketch had D&D adventurers in mind.

doppelgreener

13:11

@eimyr Break Deals, Defy Demands still resonates with me as a concrete sort of way to get at what Defy Authority was getting at. It also sounds like the kind of thing I'd first use to respond to someone making unreasonable demands of me, if I don't want to do it and want to say so.

eimyr

@doppelgreener Yeah, that is definitely a good way to express it. I think Standing Tall is a bit more slippery, as the intention is to use it when a PC acts in a way that would be acceptable for someone of a higher social status but not them.

doppelgreener

To me the two-part name is useful because it equally applies to "No, I'm not going to do that" and "sure, I'll do that" (and then not doing that)

eimyr

the name needs not to be the definition

doppelgreener

But it's also sorta tricky to connect a move to something you decide not to do, maybe. Like, if I agree to pay someone a dollar tomorrow, and I spend all day tomorrow doing stuff but not paying them the dollar, at what point does that become a broken deal? Like, at the end of the day..? Maybe you'd have a GM soft move that suggests potential consequences brewing for a broken deal, and a hard move that has them happen, instead of having it be an active thin the player does.

eimyr

@doppelgreener Yeah, it could backfire in a very non-PbtA way

CM_Dayton

14:02

That moment when you see a question that you could answer, technically, but you just don't want to think that hard and so you skip it.

(Not RPG, different SE)

nwp

You just say that to deter nerd snipers.

CM_Dayton

Look both ways before answering hard questions. Yep, I know that rule.

He says "for reasons." rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/104980/…

doppelgreener

14:24

@CM_Dayton i do that sometimes on rpg.se as well [sheds a tear]

@CM_Dayton Business opportunities! The plane of fire's ice-cream market is completely untapped.

nwp

I wonder if fire elementals on the plane of fire would enjoy ice-cream as something cool (heh) or just hate it.

nitsua60

@eimyr Why not just put it that way then? Overstep Your Bounds or Above Your Station rather than Stand Tall? (Also, at least for me "stand tall" doesn't so much connote acting above one's station as much as it does standing up the right amount. It's the sort of thing I say to my students if they're going before the discipline board sometimes: "stand tall, own up to what you've done wrong, defend where you think you did right...")

doppelgreener

@nitsua60 that's the same for me. standing tall involves having dignity, being proud and confident. nothing to do with boundaries, let alone overstepping them.

eimyr

@nitsua60 I'm a sucker for naming things. That's just about the only reason.

NautArch

@nwp depends on how quickly they ate it? Too fast and receive cold damage?

nitsua60

14:43

→ 13 messages about missile ranges moved to Not a bar, but plays one on TV

Ryan

15:59

good day all, how is everyone?

NautArch

@Ryan howdy! just counting the days to my holiday (2)!

Ryan

@NautArch which holiday is that? Or are you non-American and use Holiday to mean Vacation?

NautArch

@Ryan American using non-american terminoloy :)

Ryan

tricky!

Adam

@NautArch I do that I lot when I tell people that about things I did when I was "at university" instead of "in school" or "in college"

Ryan

16:10

think I need to post a question about how to deal with an overzealous DM. Dude is driving me crazy

maybe there's already a question on that

nitsua60

browse problem-gm

NautArch

@Ryan Communication...But what's he overzealous with?

nwp

@Ryan There are many. The answer is usually "talk to each other, use the same page tool, have a session zero".

And if it still doesn't work out leave the table.

NautArch

@nwp @Ryan Or just accept the situation and try to enjoy what you do enjoy at the table.

Ryan

We had a session 0

our first game is on Saturday... he's now sent me roughly 120 pages of information and seems to think I've got the time or desire to read it all

he just keeps sending me more and more info

he also took our character sheets and put them in really complicated spreadsheets and sent them to us. I have no desire to use this

NautArch

16:16

Is it for background on the campaign?

Ryan

I think so

NautArch

I'd just chat with him about why he's doing that and while you appreciate the work he's putting in, it's not fair to assume you have the same time to devote.

nwp

@Ryan You should probably ask if you are supposed to read that or if it is more like a reference manual in case you wonder how something specific works in the game.

Ryan

Even this character sheet, spreadsheet thing is overwhelming to me. Like the 1st Edition paper is not that complicated

nwp

@Ryan I think that is the one that Matthew Colville linked in one of the early videos. I didn't find it particularly useful, but in theory it allows you to just put in some numbers and have everything automatically calculated.

nitsua60

16:22

HE'S USING COMELINESS!?!?!?
Run for the hills, man.

2

Ryan

@nitsua60 I dont know what this means. Since I dont know what it means I also have no idea if you're being serious or sarcastic

nitsua60

Sericastic?

Adam

@Ryan It's a stat representing how good you look

nitsua60

Comeliness was a seventh stat added in Unearthed Arcana (the book) that tried to tease out looks from Charisma.

nwp

I thought Charisma was strength of personality, not prettiness.

Although those stats don't really make sense if you look at them too closely.

nitsua60

16:27

Its rules included such gems as "7 to 9: the homeliness of the individual will be such that initial contact will be of a negative sort" and "18 to 21: the beauty of the character will cause heads to turn and hearts to race. Reaction for initial contact is at a percent equal to 150% of the comeliness score. Individuals of the opposite sex will be affected as if under a fascinate spell unless their wisdom exceeds two-thirds of the character's comeliness score."

GreySage

@Ryan This just looks way too cluttered for my liking

Ryan

@GreySage mine too

nitsua60

It added to the game a whole bunch of social bookkeeping and RL-prejudices that just didn't need to be there, IMO.

NautArch

@nwp I think that's 5e charisma...maybe not in prior editions.

Ryan

hmm interesting. He didn't really ask us about our character's appearance at all or age or anything like that

GreySage

16:33

Charisma
Measures: Confidence, eloquence, leadership
In 5e anyway

NautArch

@Ryan have you talked to the other players?

Ryan

@NautArch nope. dont know them well. we just met at session 0 for the first time

NautArch

@Ryan ah, I'd say talk to them first, but i think just approaching the DM with your concerns is entirely valid. He's not being bad, he's just not realizing the commitment level for his players may not be the same as his own in terms of time.

Ryan

I'm just going to ignore his article messages and see how it goes at the first session. If its clear he's expecting a lot more than I can do I'll talk to him about it after

NautArch

@Ryan wait and see isn't a bad approach. As you say, it may not be as big of a deal as you think. And in the meantime, you can peruse the materials at your leisure.

nitsua60

16:41

1e PHB: "Charisma is the measure of the character's combined physical attractiveness, persuasiveness, and personal magnetism. A generally non-beautiful character can have a very high charisma due to strong measures of the other two aspects of charisma."
1.5 (UA): establishes Comeliness as separate stat, implicitly drawing appearance away from Cha.
2e PHB: "The Charisma (Cha) score measures a character's persuasiveness, personal magnetism, and ability to lead. It is not a reflection of physical attractiveness, although attractiveness certainly plays a role." So you can see they're trying rea…

Ryan

I am going to message him ahead of time and ask him to bring my regular character sheet though. I dont want to use this spreadsheet at all

NautArch

@Ryan that's very fair. If you odn't enjoy looking at the sheet about your own character, you should be allowed to use what you want.

CM_Dayton

@NautArch ask for a shorter, 1-3 page executive summary. As the campaign progresses, you can promise to read more.

NautArch

@CM_Dayton think you meant @Ryan

CM_Dayton

@nitsua60 am I misremembering, or didn't Comeliness allow negative scores? Ah, the joys of AD&D 1e...

@NautArch oops. right.

nitsua60

16:53

@CM_Dayton Oh, yeah. The descriptors get particularly delightful</sarc> down there.

CM_Dayton

@nitsua60 I've gamed with players who took pride in their negative COM scores. Yeah. I'm sure this will surprise you greatly to know those events were back in high school and not later in life, when maturity was an actual thing.

nitsua60

And don't forget the "Racial Preferences Table" twelve pages in. (Results range through {preference, goodwill, tolerance, neutrality, antipathy, hatred}.)

NautArch

@nitsua60 jiminy christmas. That's...kind of crazy?

nitsua60

But this is also the work that gave us "Appendix T: Pole Arms" which illustrates and describes [lemme count a sec] no less than seventy-one different polearms. I'll never leave you, Unearthed Arcana.

CM_Dayton

You know, I really don't miss AD&D 1e much at all. The Oriental Adventures book was kind of fun. And the Dungeoneers Survival Guide and Wilderness survival guide were useful. But overall, don't miss it much. Unearthed Arcana gave us the Paladin's less religious cousin, the Cavalier. And a 1,001 pole arms. And not a lot else of value. :)

nitsua60

16:59

CM_Dayton

Always good to see a new take on an old Monty Python sketch.

nitsua60

@CM_Dayton I'm definitely with you on those three books (OA, Wilderness, Dungeoneer). I'm not quite sure where I shake out on it, since what we played as kids was such a hodgepodge of BECMI, 1e, and eventually 2e material.

Ryan

@CM_Dayton what dont you like?

godskook

@CM_Dayton I'd hardly call that OotS strip "new" :P

CM_Dayton

I liked 2e. I liked how in 2e, the to-hit system didn't require a table hidden in the DMG. And how Bards were a class and not a weird prestige class. And I never figured out psionics in 1e. Ever. And yeah, COM wasn't a great idea.

Ryan

17:06

@CM_Dayton seems odd the way you word it. You don't like 1st Edition because it doesnt have the newer features

CM_Dayton

Okay, that came across as lest joking/sarcasm/snark than I intended then. I don't hate 1e. I have a great deal of nostalgia for it, as that was my first RPG engine, back when 1e was the only e.

But I don't really want to play that edition now, either. The RPG industry has found better concepts and I tend to prefer those newer ways.

Ryan

ah so its not so much that you dislike 1E, just that you prefer the newer editions

5E is your favorite?

CM_Dayton

Sadly, haven't played 4 or 5 yet. :( I own the 4e PHB, MM, and DMG, but haven't really read them in depth. My brief skims didn't impress me; I'm not a fan of some the things that seem more "computer-game-y", but that's from skimming, not playing. Don't own the 5e books. Our group switched from D&D to GURPS when they announced 4e was coming / Dragon magazine was killed. Then our gaming group moved off to different cities and I haven't really gamed much since.

Ryan

I'd like to play 3.5 at some point but no groups around that Im aware of for it. I've only played 5E and 1E. Between the two I like 1E a bit better

godskook

@Ryan You're welcome at my table?

CM_Dayton

17:20

I liked 3.0 and 3.5 both. I had a bit of nerd-rage when 3.5 came out so soon after 3.0, and changed as much as it did. But I liked it well enough.

Ryan

@godskook hmm? Roll20?

godskook

@Ryan Upper Penninsula, Michigan :(

Ryan

if I'm ever in the area Ill keep it in mind lol

BanjoFox

@nitsua60 -- Having not finished reading yet, the first 4 panels look like a re-hash of "Cheese Shop"

godskook

17:43

@CM_Dayton What did 3.5 even change that was contentious? I started 3.5 at a point where everyone I could find agreed that 3.5 was unambiguously better than 3.0 AND a direct replacement.(True or not)

CM_Dayton

It wasn't WHAT they changed. It was HOW MUCH they changed. It broke many of the splat-books from 3.0

It wasn't nerd-rage over the rules. But over the books I couldn't use in the newest, latest, greatest.

godskook

What broke in the splatbooks? The 3.0 Splats I've read are reasonably easy for me to port-forward, mostly, but that might be hubris of experience....

CM_Dayton

IIRC, spells sometimes changed spell levels, and the classes got shifted around in various ways. Those shifts to classes made the splatbooks tricky. Primarily the class-based books. Which I loved.

godskook

I mean, I can appreciate the "my books are outdated" frustration, admittedly.

Ryan

Just received another message from the GM...

Welcome to the World of Greyhawk campaign, hosted by yours truly. Each of you should have received a few links to help get you started, which might have included a link to the world map, links to various wikis, and, most importantly, a player primer.

The primer is your guide to the city, for the most part. It highlights some of the more well-known places and people. Additionally, it provides you some context from a world point of view. For example, some of the most reknown wizards in the world began in the World of Greyhawk. names such as Tenser, Bigby, Otiluke and Mordenkainen. The city h…

>.< dude needs another hobby

Adam

17:51

@Ryan No he doesn't, unless he wants to. He's allowed to be as into building his own world as he wants.

NautArch

@Ryan I dunno - I'd be pretty excited to get something like that from my DM.

CM_Dayton

@Ryan "Please write a 45 - 50 page thesis on how your PC fits into this subregion of this city on page 37 of the source material. Must reference 3 - 5 named NPCs and 3 to 7 locations in that city. Be specific. Please use AMA style references. Due by Friday at midnight."

~GM

godskook

@Ryan I agree, he should pick up a hobby that more better suits his interests in world-building, character-management, and complex storytelling

2

NautArch

ugh. I hate bad customer service. Submitted a ticket with a company and the autoreply said next business day. NO response next day, so I follow up the next day. No response. They tehn tell me that Zendesk creates new tickets when you 'follow' up on an existing one.

called them out on that (I use zendesk and know that isn't how it works)

CM_Dayton

So every 24 hours they don't respond, you generate a ticket asking for status on the old ticket. Managing their queue is not your problem. Maybe it'll "encourage" them to fix their process.
/passive aggressive

Adam

17:54

@CM_Dayton or "try to flesh out the basics", in a not essay "This is why I'm here" kind of way.

CM_Dayton

Yeah. I like to have a world that's more than just "map to dungeon. Map of dungeon. List of encounters"

NautArch

@CM_Dayton Basically got what I needed (sort of), but I'll take it. Having me buy a new one off amazon with prime shipping so I get it in time and they'll send me ar eturn label for the original (Which they'll credit me for once i get it).

CM_Dayton

But I also don't want the GM to spend 100s of hours on a world that we'll explore 10% or less of...

BanjoFox

@NautArch :D

NautArch

and if not...I used my Amex, so phooey on yoooey.

BanjoFox

17:55

lol

CM_Dayton

Now the real challenge is getting Players to write backstories that are more than 2 sentences long.

Delioth

@CM_Dayton When in doubt, always remember: unused prep is reusable prep.

7

BanjoFox

@CM_Dayton -- I've had the opposite problem. Players writing short novels ;)

CM_Dayton

...or worse, a backstory that reads like an obviously spam post on Craigslist

BanjoFox

BRB Rage...

Delioth

17:57

Also it's considerably easier to prep more when you have a good foundation for what the world is (also easier to improvise and screw the prep work)

Mike Q

@CM_Dayton One strategy is to structure "un-painted" environments and dungeons. Then put them where the players go, and color them in appropriately according to the lore and context.

CM_Dayton

Oooh. I now can cast close/reopen votes. MWAHAHAHAHAHAH! <rubs hands in glee>

GreySage

@CM_Dayton If the GM wants to, it is his time to spend. Don't worry about it

CM_Dayton

I don't worry about. I just sometimes feel bad that we don't get to see more of it.

2EZ 4RTZ

Yeah i always feel bad when you don't get to see more of me :D

Adam

18:04

@CM_Dayton Is that because you want to see more of the world, or because the DM put all that work into it, so you feel obliged to look at it?

CM_Dayton

@2EZ4RTZ "see more" PUT ON CLOTHES! OMG MY EYES! I need brain bleach!

2

@Adam Yes. :)

2EZ 4RTZ

@CM_Dayton AHHHH SORRY.

HERE

CM_Dayton

:)

godskook

@CM_Dayton I once made a player do a 15-minute backstory quiz. He ended up being wanted for murder in a town that was the most logical next stop for the PCs on the journey to their next quest.

CM_Dayton

those murder hobos always on the run from the law.

Mike Q

18:12

@CM_Dayton Is there a minimum sentence length? Or could I get away with a backstory like "Me Smashor. Me barbarian. Me like to smash." Technically more than 2 sentences.

CM_Dayton

LOL

We had one campaign where the GM said that for each session, if we wrote up an in-character, 1st person, journal entry about the game, we'd earn like 10% of the session's XP as a bonus. So we all did. The barbarian? Player totally drew pictures in crayon. It was hilarous.

godskook

@CM_Dayton Technically, the PCs are the law. They work for the most powerful nation/guild in my setting, and are, loosely, peace-keepers meant to spread good-will the surrounding nations.

Mike Q

@godskook Emphasis on "loosely" and "meant to"?

CM_Dayton

@godskook "PCs meant to spread good-will." You will be glad to see us! you will welcome us happily! Or else the beatings will continue!

godskook

@MikeQ No, actually. I think the most criminal thing I've seen PCs in this group do, after character creation, is interrupt a Gladitorial Fight fed by slaves and criminals, in an attempt to rescue a guild-mate.

CM_Dayton

18:21

Gasp. no murder-death-kills?!? Amateurs.

godskook

Hell, they were charged with arresting an arrogant Druid/Totemist who was fooling around with something FAR too necromantic for most Clerics' sensibilities, and despite my best efforts, they got her to surrender.

After visiting with her twice, and then going to get permission from their superiors to arrest her.

Mike Q

@godskook I'm impressed, considering plenty of experience dealing with murderhobo parties who somehow slide by as CG because they're the players

CM_Dayton

@godskook "Get permission" What is this dark magic spell of which you speak? PCs do not explore such fell powers. Therein lies MADNESS! Cthulhu Ftagn!!

2

godskook

@MikeQ Session-0s are a hell-of-a-drug :P

Mike Q

@godskook Not sure what you mean. Could you elaborate?

godskook

18:26

Session-0 is the idea of setting up an explicit social contract of what kinds of things your game is going to have and not have.

I mandate that my PCs are "Paladin-compatible" AND "want to work for this guild"

Wibbs

@godskook I also always incorporate character creation into this, which is done as a group

Delioth

It's also good for murder hobo parties, because it also lets them all agree that they're gonna murder hobo so they don't try to masquerade as "CG"; they all know they're gonna be NE/N/CN

Mike Q

Okay, you have my attention because I should do that soon for an eventually upcoming campaign. Open question to the chat: What are your essential checklists when you run a session 0?

godskook

@Wibbs That'd be hard for me, I run 1 continuous setting in a 3.5 E6 environment, so PCs are coming and going asynchronously.

CM_Dayton

"No bob. You dont get to constantly stab us in the back and claim it's because you're neutral. Either be evil or be good, but be honest about it either way."

godskook

18:29

@MikeQ:

1. Party compatibility

2. Story compatibility

Delioth

@MikeQ Definitely. The Same-Page tool (I don't have a link immediately handy) is great- it helps make sure everyone has similar expectations - are we being serious/silly? Alignment goal? Heroic/Grimdark? Etc.

nwp

@MikeQ This is rather complete than essential, but you can go over it and pick the points you think are most relevant for your group.

CM_Dayton

The house rule that always gets me in trouble: No quoting Monty Python or Princess Bride. Ever.

godskook

@MikeQ you need your PCs all on the same page about the expected level of PC compatibility. Are you running a Paranoia game or classic D&D? And then you need them on page with the DM about, roughly, what story is going to be told and how. For my game, the story is, simply, "people from this guild given missions by this guild".

Wibbs

Character concepts/options that are not allowed. Concepts that would work particularly well. The level of intra-party conflict.

godskook

18:32

@CM_Dayton Yeah, nobody expects that houserule.

Delioth

@CM_Dayton Welp, I'd be kicked in... a few minutes? "Miracle Max" isn't exactly a common name... It'd take a miracle to stay in.

Wibbs

How to handle player absence

The importance of having PCs who want to engage in the campaign

Any planned mature content

CM_Dayton

Yeah. Being on the same page makes a huge difference. Prevents so many issues before they ever start.

Wibbs

(if the setting is particularly mature, then I do veils and lines prior to session 0)

godskook

"veils"?

Wibbs

18:35

48

Q: What do the terms "lines" and "veils" mean?

I have seen the terms "lines" and "veils" used on this SE (including on the chat) a number of times, especially in terms of social contracts between players. What do these terms mean? What is their origin? How are they frequently used (best practices)? What are some suggestions for introd...

terminology social-contract

godskook

@Delioth Unless you got better?

Delioth

@godskook Made sure to buy my Bead of Newt Prevention :D

godskook

@Delioth Is....is that African or European?

nitsua60

* Timing of sessions/expectations around commitment/regularity
* Topics/theme of campaign; I introduce X-card at this point
* worldbuilding details (I like to involve players in WB, to the extent they care to)
* playing as a party
* lay out areas of growth where we're looking for help/prodding
* houserule policy

Wibbs

Oh yeah, forgot about house rules

Delioth

18:41

@godskook It's strung between two, just so that the swallows can carry it regardless of origin

CM_Dayton

Right. Too silly.

Delioth

Like a coconut

nitsua60

@Wibbs I don't go through any house rules in a session 0, but rather I want to talk with players about when/how we'll (collectively) decide to adopt a houserule.

Wibbs

@nitsua60 I guess I mean more 'setting specific rules'. They're quite a big thing in Savage Worlds, and can change things considerably

godskook

@Delioth Don't you mean horse hooves?

CM_Dayton

18:43

Yes, I've been with some groups that, as a group, had a sort of collective set of pre-approved house rules.

Mike Q

@nitsua60 That is generally been my policy. I have a few houserules to begin with, but I expect things to pop up during the campaign that will also prompt new rules.

Delioth

@godskook Horse hooves are made from coconuts, didn't you know? They make nearly the same sound

Wibbs

@MikeQ I'm used to playing with a system where that generally isn't necessary

nitsua60

@Wibbs ah... makes sense.

Mike Q

@Wibbs Which system?

Wibbs

18:52

Savage Worlds

godskook

@Delioth Yeah, I had to do a paper on that for the Ministry.

Delioth

@godskook What, the Ministry of Reverberations of Unusual Sounds?

AKA The Ministry of ROUS's

GreySage

@Delioth Don't be silly, that doesn't exist

godskook

@Delioth Nah, the Ministry of Really Obnoxious and Unusual Saunters. Although we attempted a subsidiary to research how one would go in against a Sicilian when death was on the line.

CM_Dayton

Just downstairs from the Ministry of Silly Walks? (And yes, they DO hate being downstairs from that bunch, let me tell you)

Mike Q

18:57

@CM_Dayton Gasp. Why not?

CM_Dayton

@MikeQ Abuse of the privilege, I'm sorry to say. <hangs head in shame>

Delioth

@MikeQ See: the last 20 minutes of chat between godskook & I

Mike Q

I'm referring to the "No quoting Monty Python or Princess Bride" rule

godskook

@CM_Dayton The only way to fix it, is to come at it with a Banana.

CM_Dayton

Ah. See, that's the problem. I tried to blow it up, like someone trying not to be seen.

godskook

19:02

@CM_Dayton The trick is to have a pointed stick.

CM_Dayton

19:25

Or to have a good, heavy, fighting wine.

...that moment when you answer a question. Then the OP says, "Yes but then how do I..." So I add more to my answer. Then more "Yes but.." to the point that my answer ends up 5x longer than the original answer. No good dead goes unpunished.

NautArch

@godskook Oooh! I once took a self-defense class on how to defend against someone armed with a banana!

CM_Dayton

banana fights. They always devolve into banana peels on the floor, which devolves into trip hazards and grapple checks. And I HATES grapple checks.

No, what you want is NOT a banana fight. What you want is a good argument.

NautArch

I'm still pretty disappointed in the 5e grapple system. When the best you can do is restrain yourself along with your target, that's a pretty rough trade.

CM_Dayton

Oh look. They are wrestling. SHOOT THEM BOTH.

Adam

@NautArch Only if you have a feat no less.

GreySage

19:40

@NautArch What do you want it to do?

CM_Dayton

Ok, but seriously. Has ANY version of (A)D&D wrestling/grappling not sucked?

I'd ask that, but the question would get closed.

Delioth

@CM_Dayton Pathfinder's version is... less bad? It almost requires a flowchart (there are several), but it feels like it gives good enough rewards for success. Grappled>Pinned, damage, and a ton of feats to build around grappling.

Though I guess that's contingent on considering Pathfinder in the same group as "D&D" (It's similar, but different publishers et al.)

GreySage

@Delioth Pathfinder's version is much more complicated (but not THAT bad, you just go from pinned->even->pinning and back again), but you can do damage. 5e's version is much simpler (2 checks, max), but all you can do is set speed = 0 or restrain

NautArch

@GreySage Honestly, I'm not really sure. But it's a big action economy expenditure that nothing else has. It works like a Hold spell, but instead of a concentration mechanic, it's your entire action mechanic. Maybe treat it more like a concentration?

CM_Dayton

When I first started playing GURPS, I found this huge, complex, text-based flow-chart for all the possible combat options given like 5 main rule books. It was over 15 pages. At the time my job was pretty slow (nothing like right now at all), so I redid that in Visio. The flowchart graphed out to a 20-page chart of all the things you might could do during your round.

It was insane.

godskook

19:48

@NautArch The first lesson: Don't stand up!

GreySage

@NautArch As someone with MMA training, there are pretty much 3 things you can do while grappling someone. Pin them, hit them, or break something (like an arm or leg)

godskook

@CM_Dayton Did you include all "internal" paths in the main flowchart?

Cause down that road lies madness.

NautArch

@GreySage and I thnk that'd be reasonable. But Restrained means no Actions. Including verbal only spells.

GreySage

@NautArch No it doesn't

A restrained creature's speed becomes 0, and it can't
benefit from any bonus to its speed.
Attack rolls against the creature have advantage,
and the creature's attack rolls have disadvantage.
The creature has disadvantage on Dexterity
saving throws.

BanjoFox

Ooo SNAP

Adam

19:50

@NautArch But it's also not even close to a paralyze spell in terms of raw power. Paralysis gives advantage on attacks, failure on dex and strength checks, and automatic critical hits from attacks within 5 feet, as well as preventing the creature from taking any actions

GreySage

You can attack, cast spells, whatever as restrained, you just have disadvantage on attacks

NautArch

@GreySage d'oh. You're right - thinking incapacitated.

GreySage

I agree grappling is underwhelming unless you outnumber your opponents, but I think just adding in a damage option would make it work

Full disclosure: I have a text document with all the conditions on it on my computer

NautArch

@GreySage like the Expert Grappler homebrew feat

CM_Dayton

It had lots of paths. The only short path was "do nothing."

It looked like one of those 10000x enlarged pics of a computer CPU

NautArch

20:10

@GreySage I guess I'd like to be able to shut an opponent down with it - much like the paralyzed or incapacitated conditions. Maybe you give the incapacitated condition and you take the restrained condition.

and they get a "save" in an attempt to break the grapple only

Adam

@NautArch I dunno, I'm having a hard time visualizing how you could completely paralyze somebody to that degree just with grapples.

NautArch

@Adam yeah, me too :) but that's why I think there's an issue. One side is too much, the other too little.

i'm interested because I'd like this to be an option for my bard, but I just can't make sense to pursue it.

getting up in front of someone's face is just too risky

BanjoFox

Combat Bard? I'd like to see that :D

NautArch

@BanjoFox it's sort of the Valor Bard if you want to go that route. But this is my Lore Bard. Double expertise in athletics could easily happen.

My strength mod is only +1, but at level 14 I'd have 2d10 proficiency to add to it (using proficiency die variant rule)

BanjoFox

.... I honestly did not know that there were sub-classes of Bard o.o

Delioth

20:20

@BanjoFox 5e has sub-classes integrated into most [every?] class; Bards choose their college, barbarians choose their totem, warlocks choose their pact, etc.

GreySage

@Adam If you get someone in an armbar or some other hold you can totally paralyze an opponent, but it usually requires most if not all of your body to do it.

Adam

@Delioth Every class has some sub-class options to choose from. Some more than others

Delioth

Actually there might be 2 choices for a bunch of classes too; I know warlocks also get to choose patron & barbarians have archetypes

BanjoFox

weird.

Adam

@GreySage I mean "totally paralyze" in the sense of hold person or the like. Not "totally paralyze" in the sense that they can't fight back against you.

BanjoFox

20:22

anyways.. IM OUT!

/me ragequit

Adam

For example, an eldritch knight in an armbar could misty step out of it. But they can do no such thing if they are affected by hold person.

@Delioth The totem barbarian is actually part of its primal path archetype. Not every barbarian gets a totem

Delioth

@Adam Right. It's been too long since my 5e group has met (I think we're at 5 months of hiatus right now).

GreySage

@Adam Is there a notion of verbal only actions in 5e?

NautArch

@GreySage just verbal only spells. Some DMs could allow an intimidate/persuade or possibly something like the Swashbuckler Panache.

GreySage

@NautArch I'm thinking that a successfully pinned character would be restrained and maybe can't take attack actions except to escape? Or can only cast verbal spells?

Something between restrained and incapacitated

NautArch

20:31

@GreySage that sounds reasonable. What does the grappler get? Restrained?

can't move, but can take actions?

or something similar in that they can't take attack actions or anything requiring somatic or material components?

GreySage

@NautArch I have two ideas on that: either restrained, or the same limiting condition. Restrained would allow attacks and spells, but they would be at disadvantage or at best wouldn't have advantage, which means you personally gain something from pinning an opponent (you can hit them, they can't hit you).

At the same time, that might be too strong in a group, which leads me to think that the same restrictions might be good, you personally can't do much beyond maintain the condition, but your allies can hit the target and you keep them from acting.

NautArch

@GreySage Hmm, it also seems to be grappling with a caster vs grappling with a melee. We seem to be tuning for caster grappling more than melee.

GreySage

@NautArch I'm worried about going too far into details, requiring people to be explicit about what hand they hold things in, how many hands it takes to activate abilities etc.

Adam

Could this be one of those things that's better suited to the DM making calls on the fly based on what the player is describing they do, rather than trying to come up with a system for every possibility?

NautArch

20:55

@Adam maybe, but then I think the risk is big for abuse by DM or players. Or we just avoid grappling and do our regular actions :)

BESW

21:16

I forgot how well Fate Core ideas work in other RPGs. I'm using all sorts of Fate unconsciously in my #dnd game. Th… https://twitter.com/i/web/status/895372345656954880

Tweeted by SlyFlourish on August 9, 2017 at 7:52 PM

I see you're invoking your Aspect of The Lazy DM. Do you want to take a +2 or re-roll all your dice? https://twitter.com/SlyFlourish/status/895372345656954880

Tweeted by EvilHatOfficial on August 9, 2017 at 8:06 PM

BESW

21:39

@CM_Dayton Katanas & Trenchcoats gives mechanical bonuses at the start of play based on how much backstory each player has written.

> Your initial Grandeur Rank depends on how much detail you spouted forth in your Saga: 1 for a phrase in each category, 2 for paragraphs, 3 for pages, 4 for epic poems.

Mike Q

I imagine that Old Man Henderson would fare especially well in that system.

BESW

Nah, it's more of a "White Wolf done in New Narrative style" game, and much MUCH too silly for OMH to work by counterpointing the general tone.

(K&T started as a playable April Fool's joke for charity, and is "Highlander" style action drama.)

Mike Q

22:06

How are things going @BESW ?

BESW

No sleep, no time to sleep.

Running low on coffee.

Caregiver was an hour late.

On the bright side, I can make fizzy cranberry-ginger drink.

user15026

@BESW That sounds tasty.

BESW

It'd be better if the cranberry juice weren't sweetened with apple.

Because then I could add lemon juice.

eimyr

22:31

Yo

Is anyone on the chat from Toronto?

user15026

I'm from close to Toronto.

user15026

(Kitchener, if that helps)

Mike Q

I live on the same planet as Toronto. Is that close enough?

eimyr

@Ash I'm spending next week in Toronto. Wondering if there's some advice from a local I should hear.

user15026

@eimyr What sort of advice are you looking for? :) I spend some time there, and also know a fair number of people who live there, so I might be able to help :)

eimyr

22:34

well, I don't really know much about Toronto at all, but it's a week long business trip, I get to do nothing on Sunday or the evenings so I might just as well make the most of it

I think I'll visit some local sights because why not, but are there any hidden gems I ABSOLUTELY TOTALLY SHOULD BE AWARE OF?

user15026

Not sure. I can poke those in the know, as it were, and get back to you, if you'd like.

eimyr

Only as long as it's not too much effort.

but that would indeed be lovely :)

user15026

Not at all. :) I will ask, and let you know if I come up with anything :)

eimyr

thank you!

I wonder if there's anything worth doing RPG-wise

BESW

...I know someone who was just in Toronto for the World Indigenous Peoples Conference on Education.

eimyr

22:51

Interesting. It's not why I'm going though

Miniman

@eimyr Do you mean Toronto, Canada? Because there's actually Torontos all over the place.

eimyr

@Miniman that's the one

Miniman

@eimyr Then I know nothing :P

The Oracle

23:24

0

Q: Moderation-related comments seem frendlier recently!

(This is related to one of my previous posts on moderation, but I didn't think it would be appropriate to add another answer there.) Recently I've noticed that when comments are deleted, questions (particularly questions from new users) are closed, etc., the mods (diamond mods and everyone else)...

discussion comments moderation

Ben

23:40

Morning all

Today's workday is a little different... currently pinned down by a sleeping infant while the others try and figure out how to use my DMS

BESW

23:55

I, too, find it difficult to use someone else's Dark Magic Schnauzer.

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