@BESW I had a friend who was a traffic engineer: the rule of thumb he'd learned was that you set the speed limit at the speed where the 80th percentile drives, you try to ticket the fastest 10%, and the other 10% you let live as scofflaws. Apparently that's the way to prevent the "creep" you're describing.

Interesting.

@nitsua60 we don't even see that 10% of people being pulled over

I hardly ever see one person be pulled over even

@nitsua60 yep -- 80th percentile is about the sensible thing to do -- you want to control speed deviation more than absolute speed even

@trogdor Oh, same here. I don't think planners and police departments even talk, never mind try to suss out reasonable policies to enact. But apparently that's the theoretically-optimal way to run things.

@trogdor True--but the key is to make sure that the people you are pulling over are above the 90th %ile for speed.

@nitsua60 I think I get that, but I think in order for it to have an actual impact on anyone it definitely needs to happen more often too

@trogdor Oh, to be sure. (He says, as if he knows anything about traffic patterns 14000 mi away....)

Google Maps: "Sorry, we could not calculate driving directions from 'Connecticut' to 'Guam'."

Nitsua: "Sure, if that's your attitude!"

I will say that I can't exactly call myself an expert, but I do know that I only saw a single person get pulled over at all this whole year

that is not a very good statistic for deterrence of speeding

and perhaps I don't drive quite as much as the average person here, that could be a factor too

but it still seems like a low number

welp, fixed my audio

turns out I had closed some finiky settings before they were ready, so they decided to mute all volume

thanks Windows

(you mean like that?)

Blaaargh. I need my brain, but my brain is not anywhere to be found.

[pokes pile of raw input text from client, hoping it resolves itself spontaneously into a neat set of articles]

I have inputted starch, coffee, and Mucinex to the BESW system; usually one or more of those will kick-start it.

@Beanluc Hi!

@BESW Mucinex?

I am, as AJ Hall once put it, "an unfortunate martyr to sinus trouble."

We've been having some ridiculous pressure changes the last few weeks, and my brain feels pummeled.

@Miniman are you asking what it is or just why it is needed?

@trogdor I was asking what it was, but I went and looked it up.

ah

I guess they either don't make it or don't advertise it in Australia

advertisements are the only reason I know what it is anyway

Mmm, I'm at a coffee shop with Erratic Internet.

@BESW are these all different ones or the same one usually?

Mostly the same one. Hava Java has great coffee.

ok good enough reason I suppose

And they're one of the few places that has power outlets and relatively comfy chairs, is okay with me working here for hours, and isn't freezing cold.

@BESW Erratic Internet sounds like a good name for... a bookshop, maybe?

if only they had just one more good trait, it would be the perfect place XD

@mxyzplk your comment threw me an inbox-notification, not OP--did you mean that?

can anyone think of an example of a duo who, severally, were mildly problematic but, together, really just fed the worst of each other's habits and spiraled out of control?

@nitsua60 Edward and Bella.

@nitsua60 Hillary and Trump?

Like, if Torville and Dean had each been minor criminals but goaded each other into becoming a serial-killing spree (rather than delighting us with their icy antics).

@JoelHarmon DANGER, WILL ROBINSON! DANGER!

(sorry; just finished five days of backlog here featuring three separate network social conflicts)

@BESW I had to look this up. And now I hate you one iota for making my google-overlords think I care about Twilight.

You could've asked.

I'll attempt redemption by entertaining BESW with a chiasmus : I'd rather have a full bottle in front of me than a full frontal lobotomy

I also have notes on two shaggy dog jokes, and a note to ask nitsua about his DW game

most of the rest of the backlog blurs together

@JoelHarmon If you just caught up on the last three days around here, you probably need a full bottle lobotomy =\

@JoelHarmon Just different ways to kill the pain the same.

more or less on both counts, there

@JoelHarmon One of my favorite lyrics: "Full bottle in front of me/ time to roll up my sleeves and get to work/ and after many glasses of work/ I get paid, in the brain."

ugh. Just wrote a question on dba.se, trying to debug a runaway SSIS package... only to realise it was a cut&paste fail... :/

@Adeptus is your server running?

@nitsua60 Yes, I'd better go and catch it.

Well, go catch it! [hyuk, hyuk!]

[curses! sniped!]

erm, limericks

@nitsua60 Reggie Kray and Ron Kray (as seen in: real history, then a book, then the 2015 movie called Legend. Both had their problems, but together they kinda dragged each other down.

Oh, if we're doing limericks.

@Magician The fact that there is a typo in this announcement is completely appropriate

(I'd actually misread what nitsua said initially there with 'lyrics')

So, in strange artifacts of visual processing: I've been using the "nitsua" username for over two decades now. And it still looks weird whenever I see someone else use it.

I can verify that my gaming nick looks weird sometimes when other people say it

@doppelgreener also 90s movie The Krays

@Simanos It seems like you're advocating trying to "sneak by" best practices in this comment; please don't. Presumably the reason you come here is drawn by quality Q&A. We've learned that arises when people ask the questions they actually have, which sometimes aren't actually a good fit. And that needs to be okay.

@doppelgreener Wasn't aware of them.

@BESW I once worked at a place on Nantucket.

[That's all--just wanted to share. True story.]

@Adeptus i prefer Legend, because we get to see Tom Hardy and Tom Hardy play as Tom Hardy and Tom Hardy in the 1950s-60s

Ursula Vernon has discovered Instagram's suggestion that putting text on pictures is the key to popularity.

@nitsua60 It's not exactly a limerick, but I've always liked:

Doggerel is fun.

@doppelgreener and Tim Curry as the devil... wait, wrong Legend

@Adeptus well let's not get too hasty with dismissing that casting possibility

How do I go about asking for a system recommendation question here? Should I ask a question or ask here in chat?

@nitsua60 did your DW game happen already?

@Axoren we don't do system recs at all nowadays

@Axoren system rec is off topic on the main site, I'm told

(so, in chat)

@doppelgreener @JoelHarmon That was my expectation, that it wasn't exactly appropriate on the main site.

Just wanted to check.

I'm not sure if it's germane here, but you'd be hard-pressed to have it be problematic in the Not A Bar room

yeah, you can ask us in chat tho

I'm looking for a non-Shadowrun system that centers itself well around Hacking and Hack ad Slash gameplay

Something preferably not balanced around Magic/ESP existing in the setting

My first thought is Aeon Wave.

also Eclipse Phase

I recently saw a bit about Eclipse Phase, but it seemed to be more of the Space angle than the modern type of thing I was looking for.

Remote Controlled Mercenaries and such.

you could probably make Roll For Shoes grow in that direction, but that's basically cheating at game rec

@Axoren yeah, eclipse phase is space age posthumanity

@JoelHarmon Standing Monday night game has gone over to DW from 5e. Three-session DW game for a group of new people will kick off next week. Not sure which one you're thinking of?

(also, I've never actually played it, but I've read the rules multiple times. All 7 of them)

Aaand... gah, what's it called? The game where you share personalities with your teammates.

@JoelHarmon That's interesting in and of itself. I'll look into that for something else.

Everyone Is John?

@BESW ^

Everyone is John is a horrible game to play with strangers.

No, that's where each of the players is a personality.

then I'm not sure what you meant, @BESW

Ended up with a Cat Murderer who's trigger was "seeing an animal being saved"

This is a cyberhacking game where you can share skills with your teammates, but your personalities dribble through the connection too.

oh, something based on the show Sense 8, I recall being told

but you start with 7

and I've got no idea on the name

We ended up having to cover our eyes to prevent him from surfacing, but we walked into the road and were hit with oncoming traffic.

That Multiple Personality Hacking game sounds fun

@nitsua60 you'd pinged me and some people (apparently, you have a post-it note somewhere with my name on it; not sure how I feel about that...) about a 5e -> DW conversion, and you had pacing questions

@JoelHarmon That's the three-session thing I have coming up, then.

@Axoren GURPS has books for every genre, including cyberpunk. We played a little D&D-style fantasy (ie, hack & slash) with it, years ago. I haven't played its cyberpunk rules.

@Adeptus With GURPs, I have trouble balancing things THE MOST

Because I have to pick and choose what to allow players to include in their character creation

I do really like the fact of bell curve prowess on everything you do.

hey there @JoelHarmon

If you suck, you tend to suck. If you're good, you tend to succeed. Very good system in that regard.

hey @Shalvenay, how is it going?

@JoelHarmon My AL group's just finished Curse of Strahd, and we've a couple of weeks until Storm King's Thunder drops. At the end of the last session a few people were like "hey, can we try to get a little more descriptive in combat, do some more roleplaying?" To which I said "hey, let me tell you about a game designed to scratch your itch."

sounds about right, nitsua

There's also Cyberpunk 2020.

@JoelHarmon alright here, wondering if you'll be available tomorrow/Friday night and/or Sat. during the day to do the martial side of what we were exploring earlier, or bring a setup of your own to the table for that matter

@JoelHarmon But it means I'm running a three-session DW adventure for newbies, and I've never had to end a DW adventure before. Or think abot pacing one, or really about structure at all.

www.talsorian.com’s server DNS address could not be found.

:(

Wikipedia citations failed me on that, I'll keep looking.

Was wondering if I should worry, and consensus seems to be "eh, no worries."

@Shalvenay I'm certainly busy Friday/Saturday/Sunday, and not sure how much time I'll have tomorrow

@nitsua60 I recall someone saying to end on a cliffhanger; seems like a reasonable thing to do. Alternately, depending on what your opener is and your front(s), just call the game at a reasonable point

to be fair, and to my frustration/embarrassment, I haven't actually managed to arrange a multi-session DW game. It's been strictly one-shots as both a player and a DM.

I think I know what my issue is with balancing these systems. The experience-level system is what makes a good cyberpunk game difficult to run.

@JoelHarmon Interesting. My 3.5->5->DW players are completely hooked. Six sessions in, and each week when we've packed up it's still all "man, I love this system. It feels so much more fun and interesting."

Characters improving gradually across multiple sessions penalizes players who know exactly how they want to play from the beginning.

Think I may even get two of them to take tries at GMing--they were totally intimidated by running 3.5, and even 5e. But this looks so easy to them... and I gotta admit, I'm not finding it very hard in any sense.

There's no system that you can just hop in and be a group of hackers and street thugs without there being a prospect of being a stronger street thug or being a better hacker over the horizon.

@nitsua60 everyone I've played DW with seems to like or love the system, but they also need jobs for things like food and houses, which makes it harder to play

Being a better character should be the player's responsibility.

I've got to find a way to make that possible.

@Axoren it seems that DriveThruRPG has some cyberpunk flavors of Fate. Haven't tried any of them, but Fate itself is a great RP-centered system

I've tried to sell my group on Fate but all the upsides to FATE, they counter with "Why not GURPs?"

It seems there's some unnecessary dislike of FATE and some intrigue towards GURPs

@nitsua60 I'm close to getting my wife to try DM-ing in DW (she's terrified of running a game with complex rules when some/many of the players know them much better than she does)

I personally like the idea of just saying I'm doing a thing and having it happen

the hard part for me is keeping up with my friends; they're just collectively much more creative than I am alone

@JoelHarmon I'm jealous: I can barely get mine to play "Little Adventures" with me and the kids while trapped in a a car with no other viable alternatives =\

I remember one time, I was playing a test-tabletop made by an indie game developer I was a huge fan of.

Infini-something, by Zachtronics

And my friend and I went one-on-one

He built an entire army of fishermen turning the entire battlefield into a lake.

(btw @eimyr: did I tell you "Little Adventures" is what we're calling your friend's game?)

@nitsua60 my wife is the kind of player who finds those 300+ question online personality quizzes and answers them from her character's POV

@JoelHarmon wowza

she's something else :)

Creativity-based gameplay favors the cheese, sometimes.

@JoelHarmon You've done very well to meet and wed this woman.

pure luck on my part, really

@Axoren So, here's the fundamental difference between Fate and GURPS, and the answer to "why not GURPS?" In GURPS, you can always find the unique set of mechanics someone has already made for each of hundreds or thousands of unusual circumstances or edge cases; in Fate, there are a tiny handful of general mechanics which can be quickly applied to anything you might think of on the fly.

I can't even get a player to tell me why he wants to be a Magus when all he does is use his crossbow and run

anyway, I need to head out; hopefully I'll be able to actually be in chat at any point in the next few days.

@JoelHarmon ttfn

@JoelHarmon Peace

Which is preferable depends on the group, of course, but GURPS requires more up-front investment and more reliance on developers to have anticipated your needs.

@BESW I like that response and I'll keep that in my pocket for the next chance.

Fate instead gives your group the tools to quickly adapt to whatever you think up.

I personally like the example they gave in the PDF

Of the bar battle

It doesn't require less system mastery, but it requires a different kind of system mastery that's more flexible but also more improvisationally demanding.

Where so many different things happened and all the players utilized so many different things at their disposal, like tables, chairs, fireplace, liquor, etc.

And it was all covered in the basic mechanics.

In GURPs, we'd be reading the book nonstop.

The first time I ran a Fate scene, we had a Gunslinging Clown use a water gun filled with bleach to ruin the tailor-made suit of a Mafia Hitman.

I like everything about that sentence.

(This was after he'd used Create Advantage to "discover" the Hitman's aspect The clothes make the made man.)

@BESW sounds like GURPS is one of those games people have described where you spend half the game flipping through the rulebook for just the right chart or rule

@doppelgreener Right, except for the bit where you say "rulebook" like there's only one.

rulebooks.

@doppelgreener Only if you want to be a Esper Super Mario with Fire Magic and a Sunlight-based Werehulk.

Mario Kart was rather fun.

tbh i'm not keen on gurps because i've played a lot of games now which are exceptionally good at running certain styles of games, and "generic universal roleplaying system" says to me "we don't do any one thing particularly well, or we do in fact do some things particularly well but we're not up front about how our system works"

GURPs is also the kind of game where a player focusing on raw attributes can throw balance out the window for an unprepared DM.

The awesome and terrible thing about GURPS is that, like 3.5, it's built on the assumption that all expansion material is available for play unless/until a group agrees to ban it for that particular game--and it's got a much MUCH longer list of books than 3.5.

For example, having more DR and HP than the rest of your party combined with 17 in a weapon skill and 18 STR makes you an asshole.

Because everyone else is spending points on all the other books to get special powers

And you're just beefing through encounters

That's another thing I like about Fate and similar abstract-mechanic games; they tend to be a lot harder to game by focusing on a particular mechanic.

I think I've figured out a way to make a system non-progress-based.

Equipment-based Mission-style gameplay.

That works.

All players have access to a certain amount of money at mission loadout. They rent equipment for a job and this dictates their capabilities.

Meaning you don't have to be a 10 in Hacking to use the best equipment to hack the hardest servers.

You just need to be prepared to do it

There's also the low-end milestone effect in Fate, where you get to change your character at the end of each session/mission, but you don't get more resources total for your build.

The thing I think really turned off my group from it is the fact that all the cool stuff you can do is intangible.

In GURPs, your sheet has all your toys down to their accessories and favorite colors.

In Fate, you're responsible for showing off your toys.

They may like a toy-focused version of Fate, then.

How would that work?

More aspects with fewer applications?

Or is there a gear system separate from aspects and stunts that can work that stuff into it.

Check out concepts like personal hardware or full hardware extras.

[digs up some examples from own games]

Oh, from the Robo ruleset

Robo's really good for tool-based play.

The character sheet for Field Director Amanda Parrish is stuffed with toys.

I'll keep this in mind. I kind of want to futz about with the idea I've got now for a custom system.

@Axoren drivethrurpg.com/product/50354/…

@Adeptus Thanks. I got preoccupied and forgot to keep looking for that one. I'll give it a good read.

@Axoren Infinifactory?

thesiteformerlyknownas.zachtronicsindustries.com/infinitron

A better link: thesiteformerlyknownas.zachtronicsindustries.com/images/…

Essentially, imagine one of those kids' game anime where every villain has a different theme but the game they're playing just happens to have cards/gamepieces in that theme specifically for that character.

That's Infinitron.

sounds interesting

> While Infinitron is somewhat playable, the rules aren’t necessarily balanced, or that fun. I’ve played one game of Infinitron, with two friends – it lasted 8 hours, and I’m pretty sure everyone was unhappy by the end. But, that doesn’t mean you won’t necessarily enjoy it! -- thesiteformerlyknownas.zachtronicsindustries.com/infinitron

handle with care :P

That game is one for Cheesemancy.

@Adeptus Yes!

@Anaphory Grab the comment's link through the "permanlink" option; it'll look like this: http://chat.stackexchange.com/transcript/message/31613668#31613668

Then paste that into a line all by itself, like so:

http://chat.stackexchange.com/transcript/message/31613668#31613668

And it'll turn into this:

Ah! Just one-boxing the chat permalink then. Well, that's far easier and better than anything else.

It's the same technology that lets us one-box any mainsite or meta post or comment, Wikipedia links, image links, xkcd comics, Stack site home addresses, Twitter posts/users, Stack users...

Mostly xkcd comics.

I knew some of the other things. I just never thought about doing it to a chat permalink.

....Also chat rooms as a whole.

@BESW I would have tried that before the single post, for some reason. I just never needed to link to another chat room yet.

The Stack chat engine has a shocking number of bells and whistles, it's pretty sweet.

'tis true!

Oh, and I made the links appear as text without oneboxing or doing anything else untoward by bracketing them with backticks (grave accents).

@BESW It was monospaced, so that's what I assumed.

@AnneAunyme Hi!

@nitsua60 Yes, you did. You also said other nice things about the game. I haven't heard anything from you, the author or the mutual friend since.

Tonight I'm experimenting with adding sautéed bell peppers to my falafel mix.

The big experiment is, I'm adding them hot and oily out of the pan into the mix along with the cold water, so they set into the mix.

Livin' on the edge.

Also I put some fresh hot pepper in with the bell pepper while I was cooking 'em.

I'm still not really able to figure out how much kick that stuff'll add to a dish.

Well, in this country it's hit and miss.

I'm still not sure exactly which pepper donne' sali is in Western terms.

You buy a chilli pepper, slice it up nicely, add to your dish and it can give it no extra taste at all or turn it into a face melting conflagration of infernal dragonfire.

you can even buy two of those "hot" peppers from the same place, same batch and the results will vary widely.

..I think there was too much oil in with the peppers I added to the falafel. It's not really setting.

I have invented falafel pancakes.

hah

...nope, I can't get it to cook through properly. Ugh.

#whenyourinternetfriendscomplainaboutcookingdifficultyandallyoucandoisboilwatera‌​ndwriteunintelligiblehashtags

#andyoucantevendothatrightbecauseitstotallylegible

#shouldhaveusedevenlessspaces

#CamelCaseIsYourFriend #raNdoMCapISnoTthoUgh

#hashtagsseriousbusiness

Seriously though cooking is about ruining a lot of food and seeing what was still edible.

#aDRaNNdoMistAkeStOmaKeEiTmOrEcryPTic

I've set things on fire, served half-cooked beans, made meals that were too salty to eat, and the like--and I've always been pretty conservative about my adventures in the kitchen.

but you use exotic ingredients and fancy names

I started with pancakes from a just-add-water mix.

that's how you get points for magical cooking legend

And I've ruined that too.

@Matt Hi!

only when you here stuff like that you realise "crepes suzette" are pancakes with a fried snail on it and "calamansi marinaded taro pepper melange" is "end-of-the-week leftovers fried together for a bit"

(also I know they are not)

Calamansi marinated taro pepper melange sounds exactly like something I'd do with end of the week leftovers, if my mother would ever leave any taro by the end of the week.

Is taro unlikely to be there on a Friday?

@BESW Hello ^_^

Hi @Matt

Sheffield, huh.

Doing any roleplaying there?

@eimyr Rotherham technically, but Sheffield is more well known and sounds better :L Not at home, but I'm going to be DM'ing for some friends when I get back to uni in September

@eimyr Any leftovers will probably get taken to share as lunch at work.

Shame. Chesterfield here, with a very nice group of regular RP opportunities.

@Matt Cool. What game(s) do you tend to play?

@BESW I imagined leftovers as "stuff that I thought I'd use to cook some dinners but somehow wound up uncooked in the fridge/pantry and don't fit any particular recipe I can think of"

@eimyr Pretty close by then, I might start looking for some more opportunities once I get some more experience

@Matt perhaps you'd like to check it out: facebook.com/refugeesfromreality/?fref=ts

@eimyr Ah. I tend to think of leftovers as "the bits of dinners that didn't get eaten that night." But end of the week cooking also has to incorporate the stuff that's about to go bad because it wasn't cooked earlier.

@BESW Very little, I played 4e D&D with some friends for about half a year and then some Pathfinder with some different friends for about the same amount of time, I've been quiet for at least 2 years now though so I'm pretty rusty

@eimyr Nice, cheers

We have some people commuting weekly from Sheffield. Rotherham is a bit further away, maybe outside of our usual catchment area. Nevertheless, we accept veterans and newbies alike.

I'm actually running the Mage game there right now (I mean, this Friday, not RIGHT now)

@eimyr It's been known to happen. I once live-chatted a Roll For Shoes session.

Sounds good, I'll probably head over if I get the chance, Chesterfield isn't too far of a drive

I'll probably try and get through this session with my friends first though, see if I can remind myself at least a bit about how to play

You'll find that the games @eimyr's group plays don't all use the same playstyle skills as D&D-likes.

@Matt we meet every Friday and have cycles with games that run for a predefined number of weeks. If you arrive in the middle of a cycle most of the times people are fine with having a one-shot instead or grabbing you as an ad-hoc player.

@BESW We do have DnD and other trad games on the roster though. The games are selected on the "best overall fit" principle and while we do have some weird games there, usually we have one trad and one modern game in long cycles and one modern one indie in short ones.

Let me know if/when Dog Eat Dog or Lovecraftesque hit your tables. I'd love to hear about it.

(And if you're ever looking for a one-shot, might I suggest Colonypunk or Surgadores?)

@eimyr Sounds good, I'll see what I can do - I've got work for another couple of weeks yet, then my girlfriend is visiting, and then I'm back at uni (which is not nearly as close by), so I don't reckon I'll be making it in the short term, I'll definitely keep an eye out when I'm on holiday though!

@BESW A bit of variety is always fun

We could try the last two. I'm not sure if LVC or DED will be played any time soon - maybe at Christmas time

If we have time after BGS this weekend I'm going to try one or two variants on the Surgadores escalation mechanic and see what effect they have.

Thing is, people prefer to do boardgames between the cycles and while it's possible to grab a one-shot then, it's unlikely. They are mostly fillers for times when a cycle can't start for whatever reason or in 4-week oneshot groups

Fair enough, I'm not holding my breath.

But, you know, any chance to push for more beta testers.

Since my session with my friends will be my first time DM'ing, do you guys have any tips? We're going to keep it fairly informal, but any important rules to keep handy or anything? It's 5e D&D

I really want to say "expect failure" but that would not sound very encouraging, will it?

Instead I'll say that the game will probably not turn out as satisfying as you'd like and it's a process of learning.

There will be much failure, I've already prepared myself for how badly it's going to go :')

It happens to veteran GMs too when playing a new game or with a new group.

There is always a period of adjustment.

And also, remember: this is about fun. You're supposed to figure out together what kind of fun you'd like to have and then do it. It's OK if you make mistakes, but I strongly discourage taking an authoritative stance as a GM. Communication between players and the GM is key to having fun. Be open, honest, treat players as partners.

Thank you ^_^ I'd have searched myself but work blocks the main site >_>

You're playing a game with your friends. Following the rules, telling a good story, all of that stuff is awesome--but secondary.

Cheers guys

And on a lighter note, expect your players to come up with awesome things you'd never have thought of. It'll wreck your plans and it'll be glorious. Roll with the punches.

oh yes

It's nigh impossible to plan for outcome, but you can plan for what the adventure is broadly about though.

mm, I've been reading some of the 'tales' on tabletitans.com and some of the times the players "ruined" the plans are fantastic

It's usually a good idea to talk about what the game is going to be like before you start.

so you might talk about whether you want heroic exploits or gritty violence.

Or whether the players are supposed to be contributing to the narration or not.

Or whether players are supposed to fight to win or fight to see how much they win

Will do, the one thing I want them to know for sure is that they can suggest anything, with them all being first-timers I'm worried they'll stick to a linear path I set

There will be assumptions everyone brings to the table. As facilitator you would do well to talk about those assumptions a priori, to make sure they are as best aligned as possible.

This sounds as great advice too :D

Hello everyone (:

[grin] Out of context quote is out context.

Also hi.

Yep.

@RollingFeles hahaha, of course

There is a tool called The Same Page Tool, which is great because it illustrates these differences, but also some people take it too literally and it becomes part of the problem.

It's nice to see this topic here, because I'm finally gathering group for my game.

yay @RollingFeles

@Matt linearity is not a problem. I love good linear games.

also remember that you can only lead the horse to water

I'm dipping my toes into a game that expects linear planning, for the first time in years.

I've prepared 6 subplots for my current game. My players simply did not want to explore them.

It helps a lot if the players view the GM as a fellow collaborator rather than an adversary.

@BESW Gain their trust then stab them in the back, nice plan

Nah, ten foot pole paranoia is awful and bogs down everything.

I think to print myself a piece of paper with some advice. Most importantly for me is attitude to my players. I've read many advices about being fan of my players and letting them be heroes, but in my first session I stupidly showed NPCs strength and railroaded my heroes. But session still went pretty good and players were happy.

@eimyr Yeah, I can imagine that's an issue, I'm going to err my subplots more towards improvisation in case that happens

@Matt "Gain their trust and stab them in the back" is how good GMing was defined in the 90's

I'll try to be fairly kind, it's their first game too, I don't want them to be put off by instant perma-death

@Matt now it's "Gain their trust and tell them it would be cool if they got stabbed in the back. together figure out the coolest way they can get stabbed and the best knife and the most vicious backstabber. Then watch them stab in themselves in the back, providing exciting details"

Yay, they will love that.

10 knives out of 10 will be stabbed again.

@Matt one thing you might want to remember as well is that the game is about players being awesome.

@eimyr Like this kind of thing: tabletitans.com/tales/post/a-mansion-mishap ?

Actually, when trust is established, players are ready to accept characters deaths and loses.

@eimyr Yeah, I want them to be the stars, I'll work in some kind of inspiration point system to hopefully get them thinking and acting in character more

Our group trust our GM and when someone dies no one hold the grudge.

There is a famous story about a player who created a halfling nobody character but that character had a donkey with a cart filled with all manner of useful stuff. He had a list of items with exact placement on the cart and contingencies for contingencies when cart stuff was not working. He had appropriate gear for any situation and wanted to be a Batman-like gear expert. GM's first plot? Cart gets stolen. Halfling was now truly useless and the player unhappy. You can't fail harder than this.

@eimyr @BESW How long do you play rpgs as players and as masters?

I've been playing RPGs for about 11 years, mostly as the GM but intermittently as a player. These days we've reached the point where almost everyone in the group has run at least one session, and anyone who feels like it does.

@RollingFeles Hard question. I started in 2001or 2002 as a player and continued as rotating player/GM for about 5 years with two different groups. Then I transitioned to online MMO roleplay where I was a sorta-player for 4 years. After taht was done I played some PBFs for about 2 years and had a small break. I'm actively playing and GMing a wider variety of indie and modern games since last year.

I'm kinda the "primary" GM, but somebody else might run a one-shot, or run an adventure in a longer campaign.

@eimyr PBFs?

play by forum

I see.

You may find this interesting/useful on the subject.

twosie? =)

One player, one GM.

Or two players, for GMless systems.

See also one-on-one.

@BESW thanks! Really interesting! And somehow related to me, because my current GM will be my player. He was in my first try and it were great, because he wanted to be player and he gave great feedback.

@RollingFeles Thing is, you can't really measure a GM in years. While experience is crucial, there are other factors such as the breadth of systems played, openness to new ideas, ability to facilitate social situations, writing and acting skills, in-depth system mastery etc.

e.g. I think my GMing has been sh*t a couple years back. Now I'm more conscious about my role but also more aware of my shortcomings.

@eimyr I understand that. I asked from pure curiosity, but it generated good amount of food for thoughts :)

Yeah. My GMing skills rose very slowly over the first 7 or so years of running D&D 3.5, then took a sharp jump when I started 4e before plateauing again. When I started studying lots of different systems and trying all sorts of new games about three years ago, I feel like my abilities got much better much faster, and continue to rise in proportion to my exposure to new things.

it seems that exposure does that

also discussing ideas (good and bad) with open people

Yes!

My interest in trying new/different stuff, and my awareness of it, correlates directly to my interaction with this Stack.

I find that a passing or utilitarian knowledge of many different things advances you more as a GM than (even extreme) in-depth knowledge of one thing

I realised that I learn more talking about games with people who played 100s of different kinds than with "grognards" who claim ultimate mastery of one chosen system.

Aye.

(or one chosen group)

When I was designing Colonypunk, I got a lot more help from folks with experience with many different kinds of systems than from folks with deep understanding of the specific systems I was riffing on.

@eimyr I'm sure that's the way how things work in general. Not only with being GM. New expirience inspires new ideas and new views and builds basis for effective and great solutions.

To illustrate the point, which one rigns more true: "I know everything about RPGs and GMing, I've read D&D 3.5e Player's Handbook a 1000 times." or "I can off the top of my head run about 10 different systems in maybe 15 different settings and with some preparation perhaps another 20 or so. I'm by no means an expert though."

Oh, man. I was the first guy for a while.

@eimyr The more you know, the more you understand how little you really know :)

That's a pleasure to talk with you, guys. But I must get back to work. Thanks for great conversation! :)

ttfn

Hmm. I should update my profile.