TRPG General Chat

nitsua60

00:08

I guess I was responding to the idea of comparing and finding oneself lacking... quick answers to simple rules questions are where I've made my bread and butter, too.
I have, by way of confession, found myself typing up an answer in all haste, pausing a moment to make sure I've got the citations right, seeing the "there is 1 new answer to this question" bar pop up, and checking my clock to see what time it is in your part of the world =D

Shalvenay

so, what makes a build cheesy? is it purely a matter of them being seen as overpowered, or is it more a matter of them not fitting into the norms of the lore?

nitsua60

@Shalvenay to my grognardian ears once the word "build" is used to refer to a character I start smelling cheese... =)

I think: "that's a person you're talking about."

Shalvenay

@nitsua60 :P I just use it to refer to all the mechanics bits associated with a character, a template if you will.

but we can ask what makes a character cheesy if you prefer @nitsua60

nitsua60

I don't judge, by the way--you're the one who introduced the term "cheesy" =)

Shalvenay

:)

nitsua60

00:14

And to my mind if I were to call things cheesy it'd be a rather-different list for builds vs. characters.

Miniman

@Shalvenay Specifically in tabletop RPGs? Cheese means very different things in different contexts.

Shalvenay

@nitsua60 ah. we can go with builds then xD so what makes you put things on that list?

@Miniman yes

nitsua60

But I really try to stay away from that sort of judgment. If one person's fun is the challenge of making some ruleset work together to eke out some result, who am I to judge that? And if another's is to take whatever mechanics the narrative would suggest without a thought to their "effectiveness," who's to judge that, either? Like I always say, there are lots of games going on at a table simultanously and I don't have a monopoly--even when GM--on which are better or worse.

I just try to keep an eye on the interaction-effects.

I.e. is one person's fun making anoher's hard to come by?

Miniman

@nitsua60 Heh. If it helps, I've slowed down a lot lately - atm I can't really answer questions at work, so there's only about 7 hours in the day where I'm a danger. Also, I'm usually relieved when I see an answer from you pop up.

nitsua60

@Miniman (I'd be lying if I said I hadn't noticed you dropping to #7 on the year's leaderboard.)

Miniman

00:19

@Shalvenay I think in tabletop RPGs, one of the main factors in a build's perceived cheesiness is complexity.

nitsua60

@Shalvenay for a buiild... I'm not sure. I can't think of any particular combination of things that auto-cheese for me. Perhaps it's just when I see not-thinking about the in-world meaning of the build.

Shalvenay

@Miniman that's an interesting way to look at it -- that cheese comes from complexity, not just from power or lack of meaningfulness

nitsua60

I.e. one can take 10 of blark and 6 of dogoo and one each of pret, thaf, yuil, and dlare and it'd not be automatically cheesy for me. But i you don't come up with some reason for it other than the desired mechanic, I'm reaching for crackers and a glass of wine.

Miniman

@Shalvenay This is all just my observation, but if it's correct it's fairly unique to tabletop RPGs.

nitsua60

@Miniman as opposed to...?

Miniman

00:22

I would definitely say, in general, that a build is cheesy if it exploits flaws in the rules of the game.

Shalvenay

@nitsua60 yeah, that's one of the ways I believe I've overheard it used before -- although I haven't run into it myself. (my problem would likely be an argument over the lore itself -- I suspect my Palalock will have portability problems because not all DMs allow good-aligned things to be patrons to begin with)

Adeptus

@Miniman I was about to write that

Miniman

@nitsua60 Videogames. Cheesy means something completely different in the RTS community, for example.

@Adeptus Yeah. If you're abusing a weird interaction between two things that a single character wasn't meant to have access to in order to deal infinite damage, that's cheese.

nitsua60

@Miniman Okay. And help me out... RTS=?

Shalvenay

@nitsua60 real time strategy games

@nitsua60 Command & Conquer or Starcraft

nitsua60

00:26

So... pretend I haven't played a video game since 8-bit graphics and 4-bit sound were cutting-edge...?

Shalvenay

@nitsua60 if you took the old school tabletop wargames and translated their basic gameplay into a video game, an RTS is what you get

nitsua60

Like Axis & Allies or Risk?

Miniman

@Shalvenay Yep. There, cheese generally refers to a build that will lose if the opponent defends against it specifically, but will defeat an opponent who isn't prepared for it.

Shalvenay

@nitsua60 kinda

nitsua60

Thanks. I'm back in the conversation, then =)

Miniman

00:28

It's cheesy because it isn't particularly good, but can win games by exploiting a gap in the metagame.

nitsua60

@Shalvenay Take Jherala as a momentary example: you may remember me asking lots of questions about the interaction between the Divine-based Paladin traits and an oath to a Fey Lord. I wasn't thinking "cheese!" but I was thinking "alright, I need some help wrapping my head around what this means in-world."

Asteria

Like Pun-Pun, the mighty Kobold?

Shalvenay

@nitsua60 nods Yeah, that makes sense -- it's not surprising that the good-aligned nature deities and the Seelie Court are on the same page for most things, but it's not something that's immediately obvious either

nitsua60

@Asteria I don't know the reference?

Shalvenay

@nitsua60 Pun-Pun is a 3.5e theoretical-optimization build that somehow is made purely of infinities

Miniman

00:33

@Asteria Exactly. Pun-Pun uses abilities a player was never meant to have access to in order to become infinite in every way.

nitsua60

Countable or non-? =)

Asteria

@nitsua60 Pun-Pun is a broken character from 3.5

nitsua60

Afk a bit--bedtime for the kids.

Miniman

Thinking about it, the RTS definition of cheese might apply to tabletop too. For example, builds like this which are impossible to attack in melee but do nothing at all against ranged attacks.

Adeptus

@nitsua60 Pun-Pun

nitsua60

00:56

@Adeptus Is "NI" a defined acronym? Is it being used as "numerably-infinite?"

e.g. "This gives Pun-Pun a NI divine rank."

"Pun-Pun repeats this a NI number of times."

Adeptus

Near-infinite, I think?

nitsua60

yup--just came across "nigh-infinte"down in the "Limitless Speed" section.

Asteria

I've also heard of a 5e build that lets a wizard summon something like 130 skeletons. No idea if it has a named build like PunPun though

nitsua60

@Shalvenay So I've got to admit that I wouldn't automatically disqualify something like this at the table. (I wouldn't be able to accomodate if someone just sat down with that character sheet, though.)

Miniman

@Asteria Nah, that's not really a build as such - just the result of a Neceomancer devoting all their resources to skeletons.

Shalvenay

01:05

@nitsua60 I suspect that I would auto-DQ a build like that, but only because infinities tend to break things for me.

nitsua60

For me the first few questions are: (a) are you more or less powerful than the gods and patrons other characters are in touch with, please describe how. (b) Is there only one of you in the world, please describe why. (c) how much of your power do you expect to be able to use without the world noticing something's amiss. ...

Asteria

@Miniman ahh okay. Yeah, I'd only heard about it in passing

Shalvenay

@nitsua60 :D

nitsua60

"How do I live as an infinite being among finites" may well be an interesting game to play. We need to figure out how it works together, though.

Asteria

@nitsua60 a) more powerful b) THERE CAN ONLY BE ONE c) all of it. I are Pun-Pun hear me rawr

Shalvenay

01:07

@nitsua60 yeah, there could be a game there -- I just don't know what rules'd make sense for it

Miniman

@Asteria It does get cheesy if you put them inside a Leomund's Tiny Hut, though. At that point it's effectively a minigun with a force field.

nitsua60

@Shalvenay Oh, I'm sticking with the coreset. I mean game in the sense of "for what purpose do you sit at this table with these people."

Shalvenay

@nitsua60 ah. :) agreed

nitsua60

@Asteria The moment Pun-Pun's player utters "there can be only one" I behead him and let his power devolve to the rest of the beings in the universe. (Turns out there was someone hanging around with a Katana + c which utterly wrecks your aleph-nought hit points, buddy!)

Asteria

dang :c

nitsua60

01:11

(And Pun-Pun hears faint strains of "you're so vain, you probably think this build is about you..." being sung by the katana's wielder.)

@trogdor you like ^^ ?

trogdor

lol

a strange way to work it in, but you still get bonus points

nitsua60

But honestly, maybe being invincible among vincibles is an interesting dynamic to examine. But I'm not interested in playing in "cheat-mode" so we need to talk about what self-restrictions you're trying to implement. Therein lies the drama, of course.

trogdor

I am personally not interested in a game where one person is blatantly more powerful than everyone else

nitsua60

Ahh, but what about when it's not blatant?

trogdor

otherwise I would go back to 3.5 and say only one person is allowed to be a caster class XD

nitsua60

01:15

What's the superhero comic where it's a whole nation of supers, and the king has some power so great that he can't ever even speak?

trogdor

@nitsua60 when it's not blatant I might not notice it, and if I don't notice it, it is much less likely to bother me

@nitsua60 no idea

nitsua60

To me question (b) can only be answered "there are one/few of us, and that's because we've kept the secret so well." So then it's incumbent on the character to keep NI power under wraps. Perhaps that's interesting?

(If (b) is answered "there are lots" then the other players should be supers also, and most of their antagonists, and we should be playing a supers game.)

trogdor

well, in that case it becomes a roleplay scenario rather than someone being overpowered

Asteria

@nitsua60 I read a book similar to that idea once. The women was so powerful that her words twisted reality, so she never spoke

trogdor

that would at least be interesting

nitsua60

01:18

@trogdor =)

trogdor

:)

nitsua60

So to me even that's not cheese, as long as we tackle in some reasonable way the in-world reality.

(Now we may not end up liking the resulting dynamics, or enjoy the game, but I feel like we've given it a fighting chance when we reason through what the world looks like with some crazy build around.)

@Asteria anything else you remember?

Shalvenay

@nitsua60 that's actually a really cool way to think about it

nitsua60

There's one of Piers Anthony's Xanth books, wherein the princess Ida had the magic of "idea" and so the things she said had to come to be. Sometimes to the great detriment of those whose priorities were displaced due to the universe bending to her will.

@Shalvenay so what's a build where you've thought "CHEESE!"

Shalvenay

@nitsua60 ...I can see how that'd make life hard

Asteria

01:23

@nitsua60 just that she relied on the main characters to be the fighter, as she feared her own power. I think she only speaks once through out the whole series

Shalvenay

@nitsua60 in the NWN server I'm on -- Favoured Soul/[Cleric?]/Palemaster

@nitsua60 it's a total kludge based on how Favoured Soul is hackily implemented in terms of Bard on that server

nitsua60

@Shalvenay So assuming I know nothing of NWN, Favored Souls, or Palemasters... describe--without offending the lurker whose favorite character this is--the mechanics of that build.

Shalvenay

@nitsua60 Favoured Souls are the divine-casting equivalent of Sorcerors, but on the server in question they are technically a kind of Bard as that was the only way to hack them into NWN considering that a module can't up and define classes out of thin air

nitsua60

So a character that taps divine power, but isn't particularly devoted?

Shalvenay

@nitsua60 Palemasters are a type of arcanist that basically turns themselves into an undead of sorts

@nitsua60 taps divine power in the same way a sorceror taps arcane power

nitsua60

01:26

okay, I'm with you. Start feeding me cheese.

Shalvenay

the reason why it's cheesy is because Favoured Souls are supposed to be divine casters, and you have to be an arcane caster to become a Palemaster

nitsua60

@Asteria sorry to hear about your unsatisfying table, by the way.

@Shalvenay Aren't there lots of ways to divine/arcane multiclass?

Hey, wait a minute. Aren't you doing exactly that with Jherala?

Shalvenay

@nitsua60 yes, but this isn't dipping any arcane class -- if it was Favoured Soul/Sorcerer/Palemaster -- it'd be fine

the reason why FS/Palemaster works on that server without an explicit arcane dip is because the mechanics are treating Favoured Souls as Bards

basically, it's a Liskov substitution principle violation that's being exploited here

nitsua60

Oh, I think I'm getting it now. Favored soul is divine in flavor, but in the background is getting the "Arcane" tag from being actually a reskinned Bard....

Shalvenay

yep!

nitsua60

01:30

And so the player fulfills the arcane prereq through a kludge.

Shalvenay

exactly

nitsua60

(In other words, you explained it precisely and correctly in the first instance, and I just knew none of the context or content!)

Asteria

@nitsua60 aye, it's extremely frustrating.

nitsua60

@Shalvenay So then the rules on this server are slightly different than in the books: Favored Souls are divine casters, but are also in some way arcane. They don't actually use any arcane magic, but they "qualify" as arcane somehow. Is that right?

Shalvenay

@nitsua60 exactly!

nitsua60

01:33

Okay, so here's what I think is the interesting part: as frustrating as it sometimes is to try this, let's make in-world sense of the rules. We've got a divine caster who doesn't exhibit any particular fealty to their god.

And it turns out they've got some strange connection to arcane magic, though they don't use it.

Shalvenay

@nitsua60 not precisely, they more have an....innate bond with their deity that grants them spells instead of learning how to cast them in seminary :)

@nitsua60 this part is spot-on though

nitsua60

So let's think about what the seminary is providing: a safe traning in touching a divine font of power?

But some touch divine power in a perhaps-unsafe way: Favored Souls.

Shalvenay

@nitsua60 right.

@nitsua60 yeah -- a FS can probably be just as dangerous as a Sorcerer is (although they are better equipped to clean up their own messes, however)

nitsua60

If it were me I'd say that Favored souls are ones who are born with some sort of connection to the arcane weave, not to a god. They are, in some sense, sorcerors from birth. But instead of hearing and responding to the lure of arcane power their temperament was to follow a deity.

And it turns out they've got this wierd arcane "buffer" against blowing their brains out when touching the divine font without all the safety training.

This arcane connection is the layer of sweat and ash that protects the fire-walker's feet. (Or whatever it actually is that keeps them intact!)

Shalvenay

....not how I'd look at it, but that's one way to see it I suppose....

nitsua60

01:38

It can't be used for anything, because it's busy protecting the favored soul from the close contact they've forged.

</end in-world reasoning>

So, if a player comes to me with that weird combo and we figure that but of world-lore out, I've got no cheese feeling. In fact, I've got a hella-lotta hooks sitting there. Do people generally know how FS do their thing? Do some high-up arcanes know and resent? Are they envious? Ditto high-up "standard" divines? &c. &c. &c.

If the player comes and says "I found this awesome hack, I get to do X and Y without the cost we'd have assumed is there", and the player isn't willing to have the conversation we just did, that's cheese for me.

Shalvenay

@nitsua60 yeah -- interestingly enough, FSes are commonly multiclassed with Paladin (it's a good synergy with the extra casting support, considering how weak the 3.x Pally is), and sometimes with Wizard (as a dip to gain armored casting -- FSes aren't shackled by ASF at all)

nitsua60

ASF?

Adeptus

arcane spell failure

nitsua60

Which is?

Adeptus

chance of arcane spells not working when you cast in armour

nitsua60

01:44

thanks.

Adeptus

(in 5e they did away with that & just said you need proficiency with armour to be able to cast in it)

Shalvenay

ah, sorry about that

nitsua60

no worries.

Adeptus

@Shalvenay So, by the books, a level of FS lets a Wiz/Sorc cast in any armour without ASF? Or is this a NWN peculiarity?

Shalvenay

@Adeptus this is a peculiarity of the NWN server I'm on, yes

Adeptus

01:47

Ah, OK

Shalvenay

as the way FSes being able to ignore ASF is implemented is by temporary-modifying armor/shield ASF scores on-equip

Adeptus

ooh, hacky

Shalvenay

yeah, FS on that server is a pile of clever hacks

but armored wizardry is possible in tabletop 3.x in other ways, so it's not a huge deal from the cheeseball front

nitsua60

(ooh, now we've got cheeseballs!)

=)

Adeptus

Yes, but it's usually not as easy as "take a 1 level dip in this class"

15

Q: How do I handle Arcane Spell Failure?

Recently, we’ve seen several questions related to the topic of Arcane Spell Failure, and how to get around it. I have answered these (here and here), but neither question is directly about Arcane Spell Failure in general. At the request of some posters, I’m creating a question that directly addre...

Shalvenay

01:52

@nitsua60 but yes -- I think that's as good a definition as any, thanks!

nitsua60

@Shalvenay Glad to chat--hope it was a little interesting.

Shalvenay

@nitsua60 yeah

also, overheard in NWN, referring to warlocks: "They have no place, cheaters of the weave" <-- I'm just glad that Jherala didn't overhear that line

nitsua60

@Adeptus reading now... if nothing else, I'm liking that it'd force mechanics-only players to actually be aware which of their spells have which components =)

Adeptus

@nitsua60 It's another of KRyan's excellently detailed answers

nitsua60

@Adeptus Yeah, I've never even played the game he's writing about, don't find interesting the game where I dig through ten different books to figure out what kind of character I want to build, and I still enjoyed reading it.

A lot of Korvin's have those qualities, too: excellent, detailed, comprehensive, educative.

Asteria

02:05

Ah jeez, theres a fight going on in the comment section on my question x_x

nitsua60

@Asteria I've already flagged one of the comments.

BESW

SSD is all over it.

Asteria

I missed the initial comment, so i have no idea what started it. But jeez. SSD's reply did amuse me though

nitsua60

Actually, without ever seeing the kickoff-comment, I found even SSD's reply discomfiting. That's the one I flagged.

And, they're (all three) gone. All good--a momentary quantum fluctuation in our Be Nice field, apparently =)

(I suppose time and rudeness are the complementary variables...?)

Asteria

@nitsua60 ah don't get me wrong, it's not something I want on my question, I'd rather answers.

nitsua60

02:10

If you've got a moment, can I ask questions about your situation?

Asteria

yeah sure

nitsua60

You say he refuses to participate in RP conversations. Is that a stated refusal, or he declines invitations and gentle nudging, or just never injects himself?

Asteria

Ah, well, there was a messy situation with him talking OOC during an in-character conversation. Since then he said he won't talk in teamspeak (we're playing on Roll20) unless it's in character. And he never speaks. When asked a question, he'll just ignore us

nitsua60

help me out: "teamspeak"?

Asteria

like skype but used more for gaming

just a group call basically

nitsua60

02:15

So is your group using separate channels for IC and OOC communication?

Asteria

No, we set up rules before hand that OOC was to be typed, IC was to be spoken

nitsua60

Okay, so there is provision for OOC, then.

After that messy situation is he good about not talking when not in character? (Which sounds like just "not ever talking" for him.)

Asteria

Yeah he just doesn't speak. He's pretty salty about the whole situation

nitsua60

But he received the correction and is now hewing to the rules in that matter, right?

Asteria

yes

nitsua60

02:21

So if he doesn't engage in IC conversation how is this a problem for you and the others? (I don't doubt that it is, I just don't quite understand the core of the problem, and want your help wrapping my head around it.)

Pixie

It sounds like he's doing so in a way that is intentionally disruptive -- if he can't talk OOC, okay, he won't, but he also won't talk IC even though that's an important part of the game.

At least, that's the impression I get from the question.

Adeptus

I think your best option is to suggest the GM talk to him... looking at our many "I'm a GM of a problem player" questions for advice

(if I was GM, I'd have NPCs start asking why he never speaks, is he mute or something?)

Asteria

sorry, I'm pretty bad at explaining things. Basically, him refusing to roleplay is making it hard on us since he keeps putting us in difficult situations (stealing from the sage almost got our Druid killed, but he just tried to kill the sage (whos double our lv))

nitsua60

how not participating = disruptive is what I need help with. I'm not doubting, just not understanding.
@Asteria Perhaps here's another way to think about it: suppose I want to play at your table but am uninterested in IC RP. I'm uncomfortable trying, I don't know how to do it, I think it's silly. But I like you-all, I like hitting things and healing you and exploring things. Would I be a problem at your table?

@Asteria and it's hard to address the in-world kerfuffle when his character won't converse?

Asteria

@nitsua60 doubly hard when any decision we make to solve it is met with "but thats metagaming"

Adeptus

02:29

@Asteria At this point, I think the rest of the party should distance themselves from the disruptive PC. In-character. "You keep causing trouble for us, we don't want you around any more".

Pixie

@nitsua60 When someone is refusing to participate in an activity that everyone is supposed to participate in, that can cause problems of various kinds (the other characters might want or need that character's input about something that's going on in the game, or they want to try to include him, or so forth). From an OOC standpoint, it's also not a very nice feeling to talk to someone and only get ignored in response.

nitsua60

Hmm, "party meeting, everyone! Sam, nice job with the potions. Betty, I'll try to cover your approach a little better next time. Dave, well... you keep getting us into hot water and don't help anyone else and I'm not even sure you know my name since you've never even said 'hi' to me and so... why are you here?"

Asteria

@nitsua60 being a silent baddie-wacker is fine, he just sours the mood with complaints. I joined this game halfway through, played as a good because most of the party is good. He sheet says lawful-good, but he plays chaotic-evil

it's hard to balance around him

BESW

@Adeptus I strongly discourage in-game solutions to out-of-game problems, even if they're causing in-game symptoms.

Pixie

@BESW I agree with this. In my experience, it doesn't help. Everyone just gets angrier.

Asteria

02:30

@Adeptus That'd most likely just upset him to be honest

Adeptus

If it's "my guy syndrome" then he needs a new character concept. If it's just "I'm going to do my own thing and I don't care what the other players think" then he needs an attitude adjustment and/or a new group.

Asteria

@Adeptus very much the second one, though I am unsure what my guy symdrome is

BESW

So it sounds like a lot of this is stemming from a particular instance where he violated IC/OOC protocols and got called on it harshly enough that he still feels badly about it.

nitsua60

@Asteria but the claim of metagaming isn't true, right? The character is actively making life bad for other characters, so they can/should respond in ways that make sense. That we often don't for the sake of a table is actually the metagaming.

@BESW So far. But I haven't asked about the "doesn't play to what's on his sheet" bit yet =)

Adeptus

@Asteria That's where you do things just because that's the way you think your character would. Even/especially if they're disruptive. "That's the way my guy would act"

Asteria

02:33

@nitsua60 no metagaming happens, thats just his claim. Things like my cleric emptying her pack when accused of stealing, refusing to give him a magic item when he's a known thief, are what he says his metagaming because it ruins what he wants to do

BESW

If that's the case, you need to re-visit that instance and recognise he felt attacked, rather than just corrected. Unless/until he feels like he doesn't have to be constantly defending against further social attacks if he messes up, he won't be able to join any conversation as an equal participant.

nitsua60

@Adeptus (Player: "That's what my guy would do. See, it says Chaotic ~~Neutral~~ Stupid right there. Hey... who crossed out 'neutral' and wrote 'stupid'?" GM: "I fixed your character sheet.")

Asteria

@BESW we had a chat with him about it. He agreed that he saw what went wrong, but still refuses to talk IC

nitsua60

@BESW this ^^.

BESW

@Asteria Okay, that's not what I'm saying at all. In fact it's the opposite.

Asteria

02:36

@BESW oh?

nitsua60

@Asteria It's not the infraction and the rule, it's how he felt about how it was corrected/handled. That, perhaps, is still an issue.

BESW

He doesn't need you to show him what he did wrong. He needs you to show him that you're supportive of his involvement in the group whether he makes mistakes or not.

nitsua60

(So, this counts as divine intervention from the lord of Curating Social Environments, right?)

BESW

You're describing someone who made a small mistake and got jumped for it, so now he's trying to minimise potential for further mistakes by withdrawing.

Your response to his trying to not get attacked for making mistakes... is to be upset at him for withdrawing.

nitsua60

(Can I get an "amen"?)

BESW

02:38

Now he's expecting to be attacked, betrayed, and affronted whatever he does. So naturally that's how he sees things like the emptying-the-bag situation; the pattern, once established, is reinforced unintentionally.

And it will continue to get worse unless/until the rest of the group goes out of their way to welcome him back in and show their willingness to support rather than correct, to guide rather than lecture.

Asteria

Ahh I see. I know he feels attacked, but it wasn't a "Oi you did this" chat that we had with him. All of the players joined in for a chat of how to avoid the mistake again, since it made a bit of a mess

Pixie

Knowing that he feels attacked is important, though. It might be as simple as saying, "Sorry. We didn't mean to make you feel like you couldn't talk at all."

BESW

If he feels attacked, and you want him to stop feeling that way, it doesn't matter whether you think that feeling is justified. He has it, so what do you do now? Tell him he's wrong again, but this time about his feels?

Pixie

Or at least starting that way.

BESW

@Pixie Yes, this. Followed with something along the lines of "What can we do to make it right?" or "How can we make you feel comfortable in chat again? We miss your contributions."

Pixie

02:41

"We want you to be able to RP when you feel like it, and we mean that. We want to include you." Etc.

And do mean it. If you don't, well... that's a bit of an issue in itself.

Asteria

the problem is we literally spent hours after the game ended trying to make it better with him, but he brushed off every idea we had. I'm stuck (as is the GM) on how to approach it. I get what you mean, and @Pixie we did try asking him these questions. Everyone genuinely wants him to play since they're all friends. But he won't accept anything bar his one idea of going back in in-game time and letting him do what he wanted

nitsua60

new campaign? complete with new characters? You've all learned some lessons, but let's not fall prey to a sunk cost fallacy?

Remember that he needs an "out". If he's painted himself into a corner--either at table or in-game--and you want him out of that corner then it behooves you to help him find a face-saving path out.

Asteria

Hmm true. I'm not sure if the other players would go for it but it's certainly something I can pitch

Pixie

If you really have talked to him and asked for his input and tried to strike a balance with his needs and your own, I mean, it's possible that he won't come around or that he and the others just have such different needs that it's impossible to make them both work. But then the options on the table are either asking him to leave or dissolving the game entirely.

Neither of those is fun, but when it comes to the point of fitting square pegs into round holes and no compromise in sight and everyone having bad feelings, sometimes that's what needs to happen.

BESW

The ability to offer others a way out that lets them save face is a vital social skill, and a very difficult one to master. Especially in cultures which don't obviously value it.

You're looking for a solution that doesn't have losers.

Asteria

02:53

@BESW my social skills are on par with a rotting banana. So I greatly value your guys help

Adeptus

@nitsua60 Maybe "same page tool" or similar, to set the ground rules for the (new) campaign. "Setting is Forgotten Realms. Non-evil alignments/no 'lone wolf' characters. If you are caught breaking the law, expect consequences."

nitsua60

12 hours ago, by BESW

@nitsua60 Verifying Before Committing, Curating Social Environments, and Making Fancy Teetotal Drinks.

BESW

[eyeroll] That's flattering, but don't set me on a pedestal.

Asteria

@BESW polishes your golden pedestal I'm sorry, what?

nitsua60

I didn't proclaim you god of anything! That was all you =)
(I did prompt you for three more godheads, I suppose....)

BESW

02:57

@Asteria The thing about skills like this is, once you've gotten comfortable in dealing with one sort of social challenge, you start to notice another one that you were unaware of previously. It's a "never finished, always improving" sort of deal. Each new skill set leads to a new kind of obstacle which needs new skills to overcome.

And there's no obvious linear progression which applies to everyone, so everybody's developing different skills at different rates.

That means we all get to accompany each other filling in the spots some of us have practiced and others haven't.

@Cerberus Hi!

(...why can't I autocomplete my @ for Cerberus?)

Miniman

@BESW Special characters maybe?

BESW

@Miniman I went to his profile page and copied the first character. Still nothing.

Miniman

I'm on mobile, so I can't check that sort of thing. @

Asteria

@BESW clearly using ninja mode

Miniman

Can confirm that other people are still working and that it's not working for me either, @BESW.

nitsua60

03:03

ditto

BESW

Anyway, @Asteria, I'm glad we can help. You're crowd-sourcing decades of learning that comes from making all kinds of horrible mistakes and eventually learning from some of them, so don't feel bad about not having the same insight as multiple people.

Asteria

@BESW it's a reason why I love this site. I'm happy to ask questions about things I don't know and I've never once felt stupid because of it. It's a great community

@BESW also, side note, says Cerberus isn't actually here on his profile o.o puu.sh/omoge/ca1b676461.jpg

BESW

[refreshes chat, watches him vanish]

How odd.

Asteria

Niiiiinja magic ~~~

BESW

@Asteria I've learnt more from interacting with this community and relating it to my games, than I did in twice the time of running games on my own. Mechanically, socially, design...ally...

(Curse you, grammar that expects parallel constructions in a language which laughs at consistent conjugation!)

nitsua60

03:10

@BESW Sometimes it seems a bit like the supreme court: only the tough stuff comes up. Easy stuff is sorted out before it gets here.

Adeptus

@nitsua60 That's because the easy stuff is easy...

BESW

@nitsua60 One of the most humbling things about participating in RPG.SE is when people new to the medium notice (with their fresh eyes) challenges which I've always ignored or assumed were features.

nitsua60

@BESW such as...?

BESW

Things I thought weren't problems at all, or had obvious fixes, and then I see them through different eyes when someone else asks about them.

@nitsua60 Such as D&D's assumptions about the social status of the DM.

nitsua60

@BESW do you mean their assumed role as table-manager on top of explicit role of game-manager?

BESW

03:14

I didn't start questioning the value of the DM also being the group leader until after reading some of the questions on this site and finally recognising similar tensions (albeit at a lower level) in my own groups.

@nitsua60 Yes, and more.

The DM gets to decide what kind of game is being played, what rules and house rules will be used. They're the rules expert, the trainer of new player and the arbiter of who is or isn't going to be in the group. They're the game host, even at someone else's house. They're the one who deals with problem players and tells people what is and isn't appropriate.

The default assumption on any RPG.SE question about a problem with the group is that the querent is the GM, and we've got an active question right now where players asked the GM to intervene about another player's behaviour instead of feeling like they could handle it themselves.

Asteria

04:03

Oh question for the D&D talented. One of the players in our campaign used a spell at melee range, which normally gives you disadvantage on an attack roll right?
But he used a spell that made the enemy roll a saving throw, and none of use were quite sure how the rule applied to that.

The GM ruled to let it slide until we research it, so I'd thought I'd ask. Any of you know how that would work?

Pixie

@Asteria Which edition?

Asteria

@Pixie 5e

Pixie

Ahh, sorry, can't help there.

Asteria

ahh to bad. What edition do you normally play?

Pixie

I usually play Pathfinder, but I've played plain 3.5 as well.

Just haven't had a chance to try 5e.

@eimyr Computer update: I finally settled on this (with an X-QBER-PK model case instead) after doing some further research. The SSD is... excessive, I realize, but it's also not a bad investment. I'm excited and nervous. :v

nitsua60

04:07

@Asteria what spell?

(doesn't matter, actually)

Asteria

@nitsua60 that....is a very good question....

nitsua60

If the spell offered a save, then it wasn't a spell that required any attack roll.

There are no 5e spells I know of that incorporate both an attack roll and a save. (Perhaps a save against a persistent effect after a hit, but not both for the initial/"main" effect.)

Asteria

Aye, it was just a saving throw. If they failed, they took damage.

it was the parties other cleric, but to be honest I can't remember what the spell was. Sorry

nitsua60

Then that's all it was, and disadvantage in close on a ranged (spell) attack wouldn't have applied, as it wasn't a spell attack. It was just a spell being cast, which allowed a save.

Asteria

Ahh it was sacred flame. I remember now

@nitsua60 yeah thats what we weren't sure about, since it's an attack spell, but doesn't use an attack roll.

nitsua60

04:15

It's not an attack spell. Because you don't make an attack roll. It's just a spell that does damage.

(Cf. PHB p.194: "If there's ever any question as to whether something you're doing is an attack, the rule is simple: if you're making an attack roll, you're making an attack.")

Asteria

Ohh okay

thanks ^_^

Miniman

@Asteria To put it differently, even if it did affect the spell, there's no attack roll to give the disadvantage to.

nitsua60

Basically, I think of spells in three categories: spells that do their thing (most of them), spells that require my successful attack roll, spells that do their thing but the target might be able to resist/avoid (saves).

Asteria

@Miniman This is true :P

Miniman

@Asteria It's a technique that a lot of wildly different sources recommend - rather than trying to work out how something works, thinking about "Well, what if it worked like this?" and the consequences of that.

RollingFeles

05:09

Hi all!

Asteria

@RollingFeles Goooood afternoon

BESW

[wave]

@Godswill Hi! You'll need at least 20 rep before you can type in chat rooms, but you're welcome to hang out until then.

RollingFeles

05:24

@Asteria for me it's good beforenoon :)

Asteria

@RollingFeles ahh timezones, how I love them. Almost home time here! Woo!

trogdor

almost home time here too

Asteria

home time buddies highfive

RollingFeles

@Asteria You really start loving timezones when you ought to deal with it and consider issues with time, while developing something for people living in different zones.

Peter David Carter

My question was closed for being too broad. I have narrowed the question but you are still refusing to reopen it. Why?

Asteria

05:39

@PeterDavidCarter Hi ^_^ nice to see a new face. Mind linking your question?

Peter David Carter

I would but my Linux installation is being a pain and refusing to load it. Just a second...

RollingFeles

-1

Q: Best way to broach issues of existential/spiritual/religious crisis within a D&D campaign

I am attempting to deal with issues of existential and spiritual crisis within a D&D campaign. The attempt is to bring up issues of confusion re: which is God's word and which is of the devil, to aid people feeling confusion on this topic. In this regard I am invoking Asmodeus, who in D&D lore is...

dnd-5e gm-techniques dungeons-and-dragons campaign-development religions-and-deities

here you go

Peter David Carter

that's the one

Asteria

@PeterDavidCarter your comment down the bottom comes across as pretty aggressive. be careful, some people may see that and just go 'meh, too hard'
So you're the GM for this campaign?

Peter David Carter

Yes.

The DM I prefer in this instance I think.

Asteria

05:45

Sure thing ^_^

Peter David Carter

I don't like the implications of Game for this campaign is all. :/

BESW

It takes five votes to close or open a question, or a moderator's intervention. Even when an edit makes a question clearly re-openable, it doesn't happen instantaneously.

Peter David Carter

Ok. But have I done enough to make my question reopen-able? I take this incredibly seriously.

Asteria

The reason it's been closed is because it's too broad. In this instance, I think (emphasize on think, because I'm a newbie) it's because there is not a real clear cut 'yes / no' answer to your question. It's pretty advice and opinion based, and might be better talking about with the experts here in chat rather then as a question

Peter David Carter

I want to know whether to kill the Bugbear Chief in the campaign

BESW

05:48

Well, let's see.

Pixie

As Miniman noted, the supplementary question is unrelated to the main question, but I see that you're going to edit that when you can. I also think asking whether you should kill the bugbear is not really helpful to the rest of the question; that could go either way just based on preference and more specific goals than we have. What do you think killing the Bugbear Chief might accomplish?

BESW

I see three questions:

- is a part of Asmodeus' past history and he is plausibly a misunderstood God within Cannon? This is pretty easily answered and sourced, especially if you specify which setting/edition you're asking about.

Peter David Carter

It would make the question impossible to answer, unless the players encountered the Bugbear Spirit afterwards and even then it may not be helpful

because they would think maybe Asmodeus was deliberately confusing them again

BESW

- Any further ideas for a Planescape campaign to follow on from The Dark Path of Asmodius (spelling error intentional) would be most welcome. This is solicitation for brainstorming, which the Stack just isn't able to handle very well and so doesn't even try.

Peter David Carter

yet if I edit it out and the question remains closed it makes the question look worse than it is

BESW

05:50

- should I kill my Bugbear Chief? This sure is narrow, but it looks very opinion-based, with no particular way for votes to be cast except based on personal preference.

Peter David Carter

that's what I'm crowd-sourcing for

so one minus vote = dead Bugbear Chief

;)

trogdor

@Asteria whoops highfive XD

Asteria

@trogdor left me hanging. it hurts, man. it hurts

trogdor

:(

Peter David Carter

:/

Pixie

05:54

This is the core of the first several paragraphs that I see: "does anyone have any idea how to address these themes -- which I understand concern issues many religiously inclined people struggle with -- without leading the players down too many dark rabbit holes i.e. how to lead them through a religious crisis and not into one?"

I think you could potentially get this to be answerable, but it's going to take information about how the players you actually have relate to religion, since everyone has different feelings about this. For me, there'd be no problem whatsoever. For others, different story.

Peter David Carter

can someone suggest an edit?

I'm a writer, not an editor, generally speaking

BESW

Unfortunately, the Stack doesn't really do opinion polls. It's interested in collecting answers rooted in relevant experience.

Pixie's on the right track, I think.

Peter David Carter

delete or edit?#

whoops

BESW

I think it's important to point out, though, that D&D religion and philosophy is fundamentally different from its real-life counterparts.

Peter David Carter

Yet they overlap, of course

BESW

05:57

In D&D, alignment and faith are objectively measurable.

Peter David Carter

Lol

BESW

There are physical planes created and sustained by the forces of Good and Evil, spells which quantify the spiritual power of the clergy.

Peter David Carter

Ah, ok; lol withdrawn

I'm tired I need to sleep

goodnight

BESW

Goodnight! You've got a very big topic you're struggling with, and I hope we can help you with it more.

Pixie

@PeterDavidCarter Some questions to think about next time you're in: are your players religiously-inclined, and if so, how? Have you talked to them about it? Are they enjoying the religious elements thus far or are they showing signs of distress? For now, see you!

RollingFeles

05:59

@PeterDavidCarter Goodnight! Still, even if the main site wouldn't allow such questions you can come here and discuss it with others.

Dan B

06:10

It looks like you've asked if you should kill the bugbear chief, but you haven't told us if he's actually evil... he killed a bunch of people but were they in fact corrupt?

I think your players should get closure on that... closure involves having a clear understanding of what's going on

so, in this case, I think you should let your players investigate, let them find out the truth, and then let them make a decision about whether to kill the guy

and more generally, you've asked how you can leave players with a feeling of victory and positive action... the principal problem your players have is that asmodeus is posing as pelor, yes? you need to let the players resolve that problem

BESW

Well, whatever he decides to ask, he'll need to take out the other questions and ask them separately if he still wants to ask them.

Dan B

@besw yeah, I dunno if the question will get unblocked, so I'm just answering here

as I was saying, you need to let the players resolve that problem... has pelor told them asmodeus is impersonating him? if not why not?

the players need to (1) figure out that asmodeus is impersonating pelor, and (2) figure out how to stop it

presumably by finding and destroying some sort of pelor-impersonation artifact? maybe the impersonation is possible because asmodeus captured and corrupted a pelor holy symbol?

lastly: you asked if the players can redeem asmodeus. obviously you can have whatever you want happen in your campaign, but in my opinion it should not be possible to change a god's alignment by talking to the god

it might be possible to change a god's alignment by capturing a bunch of artifacts aligned to that god and performing an appropriate ritual to change the alignment of those artifacts

but, I think many people would say that forcibly changing someone's alignment is an evil act, even if you're changing their alignment from evil to good

so that could be a problem if you're trying to run a campaign focused on morality

BESW

06:30

@ObliviousSage I'm not very familiar with the novels, but from what I've seen online it seems to hit the major points.

Asteria

@doppelgreener greetings

doppelgreener

Aloha!

BESW

(It's not like, say, iZombie where they took literally one thing from the source material. I like iZombie in both TV and comic forms, but "follows the source material" is not a thing which can be said about the show.)

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