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14:03
@HaydnWVN The fact that you login as root is scary enough! :D
lol
@OliverSalzburg: its actually pretty common outside the *buntuverse
@JourneymanGeek Weird
It's one of the first things I always change
I prefer sudo myself
but force myself to work with both
I just don't see the benefit of allowing root SSH login
@JourneymanGeek I thought the idea was to create an account with proper permissions instead?
14:06
@OliverSalzburg: root login, no, root usage, sometimes
@JourneymanGeek Yeah, same here
@r.tanner.f: I may not always get best practices in a place I'm in ;p
BTW, I've been using gollum to build up a wiki since yesterday and it's just awesome
Except for the fact that it's basically only a library and is missing some somewhat critical features of a full wiki :D
Like users and rights management...
herro :3
@JourneymanGeek Oh neither do I =D We all use the administrator account here.
14:10
I got the FXI Cotton Candy... haven't had a chance to use it yet because I'm getting a USB OTG cable on Monday... but it seems neat... flash drive sized computer =D
@r.tanner.f: precisely
same way we have no damned backups
^
well, most the critical stuff is backed up but...
well, had
backups. o_o moar backups.
@r.tanner.f: no backups.
14:11
zero?
despite a total loss of a system at one point
no ;p
lol
well e mail is
I have a mirror set up on gmail of all things
1
Q: Windows 8 Disk Mirroring vs Intel Fake RAID

Johnny WSo Windows 8 is out and I have a new motherboard. I wish to create a RAID 1 coupling between two HDDs -- for storage purposes only (my OS is on an SSD) -- but I don't know which is the best route to take. My motherboard (Z77 chipset) comes with the age old Intel Fake RAID, but since I only wish ...

not constructive?
Not enough info. For win7 the question was easy
14:18
@r.tanner.f Should be edited to improve it
If you do not have an identical motherboard as a spare: Do not use fake RAID.
@Hennes oh, wow, you should post that actually...
I think I have.
Well, as part as a longer answer:
Intel fake raid; Get same motherboard as spare (or as one of a set of identical machine). Use only in windows.
Software RAID if you want compatability with new motherboards (safer)
HW RAID is better as long as you have a spare similar RAID card (else it does not matter of the MB dies or the HWRAID card dies)
Followed by the mantra "RAID is not backup"
Except for the win8 part it should be closed as a duplicate
@JourneymanGeek Works well, do that myself
1
A: Mirror Internal Hard Drive Partition to External Hard Drive Partition

ronalchnThe backup tool for Windows 8 has changed. If you want to backup just your user files, you want to use File History, which will automatically synchronize your Libraries and backup to an external location. However, File History cannot backup your whole system, including applications. File History ...

storage spaces are not mirroring
@Hennes Okay, I'm just going to ask this finally... if RAID isn't backup what's it for?
14:23
For keeping the server working until 5PM
does anyone know of a dedi hosting provider that rents ARM based servers?
Example: you have a fileserver with 1000 users
@allquixotic: there's arm based servers in the wild?
OS in RAID (mirror) using SAS drives
one drive fail
@JourneymanGeek no idea, asking
14:24
server stays up. At 5PM you replace the broken drive (and the server gets slower until it rebuild the RAID)
the hardware exists
but when will someone deploy it and sell it
@allquixotic: actually considered it as a possible thing
Now do the same without RAID: server goes down. 1000 people twiddle their thumbs
Much $$$ lost
oh, they got bought over by AMD
OH
@Hennes Ohhh, okay. That makes a lot of sense.
14:25
HP might
That is ther main reason for RAID anyway, there are others:
striping for performance on a gaming system
If it fails one user (the gamer) has problems
@Hennes I use RAID-0 (hardware RAID) on my gaming system, and I keep any truly irreplaceable data (besides savegames, which are too big to backup) in the cloud or on at least one other computer
but it's right, only I have the problem if it fails
Or performance increase if drives are not fast enough. (mirrors with two drives can read from two drives. This read speeds is up two twice single drive read speed
I got RAID 5 on large disks on my gaming system. and good backups.
I do not want to rebuild a large arrays with RAID 5
@allquixotic: which part of a dedicated server would be of interest here? bandwidth or something else?
1x SSD as JBOD, 4x 1TB from 4 different batches of the same drive. And I just added 1x 140GB SAS
14:28
@JourneymanGeek I'm mainly interested in a dedi server with native performance (no virtualization), decent bandwidth but not tons, and lower cost due to low power consumption of ARM
workloads include audio streaming, HTTP(S), FTP(S), remote desktop, and compiling large software packages
@allquixotic: ahh. I mean as compared to running your own
@JourneymanGeek oh... as far as the advantage vs. running my own, uptime is basically it, because I firmly believe that servers belong in a datacenter, and I don't have any landline connection at home, only my LTE, which I take with me to work, so it'd be down all day while I'm at work
@Hennes Why SAS alongside SSD?
I know most the technical side of RAID, but none of the practical. What kind of system should use RAID 5 vs RAID 10?
price:speed in a desktop system = SSD every time
14:30
I've operated a dedi server for my own hacky purposes since ~2006, but the cost has varied
@allquixotic: ahh, so we're effectively talking a desktop/server grade arm system
that might take a while
@r.tanner.f imho no kind of system should use RAID 5 ever, unless you're using Solaris ZFS's RAID-Z technology
and I sorta suspect current arm boards are too cheap for datacenter service
RAID 5 has a critical flaw for systems that either kernel panic or lose power, and all systems eventually hit that
the "RAID 5 write hole" look it up
@allquixotic What happens?
ok
14:32
@JourneymanGeek look at calxeda.com
@allquixotic current
the calxeda systems arn't widely available
basically the only way to avoid the RAID 5 write hole is to have a UPS for the entire system if you use software or BIOS RAID, or a BBU for the hardware RAID controller, or RAID-Z ZFS feature
if you have none of the above, you can lose your entire array and it's no safer than RAID-0 in power failure or kernel panic
@allquixotic Yeah but anyone with data that critical and the expense of setting up RAID5 should be using a UPS anyways
14:35
@allquixotic: eh, guess I am wrong here, someone actually is shipping em
well... a kernel panic or BSOD would only be a problem if you were using software or BIOS RAID. It's not a problem for a hardware RAID
Power is that unstable here in the UK we actually have UPS' for 80% of our PC's
but the actual number of complete power failures is probably 1-2 a year
@HaydnWVN you were talking about using RAID-5 for gaming though :S
RAID 5 is fine if you need much space and mostly read data.
@allquixotic I wasn't :P
14:36
hehe we got direct hit by a hurricane and never lost power not even for a second
But RAID5 has two disadvantages. 1) is the write hole just mentioned
@allquixotic Heavy snow/strong winds here = brownouts/occasional failures
two is that is is not a truly cheap operation.
CPU's are fast these days
But neither CPU power not drives where cheap in the past
@Hennes As is RAM, hard drives have rapidly become the bottleneck in most systems
RAID5 made sense when drives where expensive and small. You lost 1 drive to parity,
14:38
RAID was just a 'simple' solution for gamers/professionals where SCSI/SAS was too expensive (this is pre-SATA)
Heh, I still have the manuals for a SASI system
aka scsi 0
now with SSD's and the overall decrease in hardware costs, not many gamers/professionals use RAID
6 byte SCSI commands only.
lol nice
Some still stripe SSDs.
I think that that only useful for benchmarks
14:40
yeah, not many applications need 12gb/s read ;)
applications/games etc
back to RAID5: you still find places with multi terabyte setups in RAID5, and no idea what the bathtub curve on drive failure is
I still think the 'next big thing' is SATA storage cards
Maybe. Fusion IO is expensive though
OCZ made one
wait. you said SATA not PCIe
14:41
aimed at end users
Revodrive or something
i ment PCIe ;)
aye
As a student I mostly used SCSI
52 and 234MB drives. 4-5 per system.
no RAID, but careful partitioning
but then OCZ reshuffling/downsizing how much longer are they going to be in the SSD market, they already exited memory...
e.g. the swap partition was on its own 52MB drive
Nice, i cut my teeth on 40GB SCSI RAID's
usually 4 drive
@Hennes You know, an adaptec 6405-E raid card (fairly commodity, not that high-end) has a dual core dedicated processor on-board for calculating parity bits? :P so yeah, RAID-5 is computationally expensive :-/
14:43
Aye. As is RAID6
However mirroring should be easily handled in software.
I still think it's pretty darn cool to have a dedicated coprocessor for calculating parity bits like that
cool, but expensive
Aye
@Hennes Yeah but putting mirroring in the hands of software is asking for trouble
I think I paid 250 Eur for my motherboard, 200 EUR for the CPU and 550 for the RAID card
more than the other two combined
Mwa
@Hennes I paid about 300 USD for my RAID card
14:44
mdadm seems to do a good job
but it's still more than the motherboard
I don't use RAID at home, spent my pennies on GFX and SSD :P
I wanted to add RAID to my powerEdge, but not at Dell native prices.
why me :'(
0
Q: Windows 8 messed up my Windows 7 user folder permissions

HackToHellI installed Windows 8 pro today and accessed my Windows 7 user profile folder (C:\Users\xxx) and it showed me an access denied error with a continue button with UAC symbol over it, I hit it and it never finished loading my profile(~150gig), since it took a long time, I booted into 7 to access som...

I have an extremely negative experience with RAID-5 software in dedicated hosting
14:45
how come?
Slow performance?
RAID rebuild at high priority without asking the users?
Hetzner.de web host is great and affordable and high end hardware, but the default configuration is Software RAID-5 on Linux with three multi-TB SATA disks, and the write performance is abysmal, and the parity bit calculating daemon hogs 100% CPU
I paid them extra for a 4 port Adaptec Hardware RAID card and added an HDD and went to RAID10
performance problem solved
ugh
Right tool for the right job. Raid5 can be the right tool.
but not in software, not with large SATA disks
Can anyone help me with file permissions ?
it's funny that software raid-5 is the default configuration for their servers LOL
i mean seriously how many people have experienced the same thing due to that
14:48
A profile of 150Gigabyte.
Sjees
@HackToHell yes, my fellow kitteh, i will help you :3 but i have minimal experience with windows 8
It's more of a problem with 7
@HackToHell, boot in safe mode and run cacls recursively over your entire profile and reset the ACLs clean and set full control to yourself? dunno just a guess, and it COULD screw up programs that rely on permissions being different, like, granting write access to some windows services that run as localsystem or something
or if you can boot windows 8 cleanly still, you can do the same from windows 8 instead of safe mode
you will just have to wait for the permissions to finish applying
it'll take a long time because NTFS security descriptors are pretty slow
in fact NTFS-3g, the userspace read/write NTFS filesystem driver on Linux, is arguably faster than Windows' own native NTFS because NTFS-3g ignores security DACLs entirely. lolololol
it doesn't read nor write them, everything is rwxrwxrwx
I am afraid of screwing services, I already screwed up my linux permissions(askubuntu.com/questions/194710/…)
system restore? =P
do you have password to Administrator account on windows 7 side ?
14:51
yeah
I am in the Admin account in 7
logon as Administrator and you can do system restore on windows 7 side
will that change file permissions too ?
yes, it will restore the files and the permissions to the state they were in when the system restore snapshot was taken
security descriptors are captured along with the file data
in a restore
Will any new files be deleted ?
I have never used it before
not good
@HackToHell yes, it deletes new files
you could just manually apply the security settings in windows explorer to make sure you "add" the "Full Control" permission for your Windows 7 user account
without replacing/deleting the existing ACLs
you don't have to wipe out all the existing ACLs in order to add one
15:01
@allquixotic but its not like a file can have two owners (can it??)
No.
One owner
right, so that would get overwritten
But multiple people can have the rights to read it
but the owner should always be your user if the files are in your profile
@HackToHell Just make sure nothing is encrypted. You should be able to grab ownership from either win8 or win7 and pick through the file without destroying anything
15:03
a file can have one owner but any number of entries in the Access Control List (ACL) which grant any amount of permission to other people
It makes you wet your pants the first time but it's not so bad ;)
the "owner" basically only gets the ability to change the permissions on the file no matter how the ACL is set
that's the only difference between being the owner and having Full Control
because if you have Full Control but are not the owner, and your ACL of full control is revoked or changed, then you can't do anything
but as long as you're the owner, you can change the ACLs even if you are explicitly denied read access
@allquixotic It is already like that
@r.tanner.f How exactly ?
i'm not sure what windows 8 did... maybe it replaced the owner of the files, with the owner for the user account of windows 8
the user account in windows 8 will have a different SID from the user account on windows 7
so if the windows 8 user account owns the files, that's bad
I think that happend
15:05
if you're logged into Windows 7, the SID of the Windows 8 user account will look like "S-numbers-blahblah" instead of a friendly name
vice versa for if you're logged into Windows 8
@HackToHell click change permissions
or wait... that screen shot is weird
oh it's win 7
who's the owner of the files?
It's probably under the owner tab, from there you'll just need a user account to take ownership of it.
@r.tanner.f Yup check in there, you may need to take ownership forcefully of the files in 7 to regain them
It won't bork anything I promise =D
@r.tanner.f My name is there in owner tab
15:09
@HackToHell logged on as Windows 7 or Windows 8?
I saw that I was the owner from 7, now I am in 8
Wipe profile. Create a new on under win7 and a new one with a different username in win8?
The owner is a 7 user with that SSID
@Hennes noooo !
LOTS OF STUFF THERE
why not
But, you do not keep your important data on the same partition as the OS.
yeah it looks like a user got wiped out or something...
15:11
Else it will get wiped everytime you reformat
owner of file is unrecognized in win 7 or win 8
OK, harsh. Do NOT do that right now.
@HackToHell Verify the owner SSID in win8 matches the SSID of the account in win7?
But if you ever reinstall, consider multiple partitions
@Hennes Why? It's hassle, much easier to just stick everything in your profile
its easy to create another and copy stuff across
but where's the fun in that without at least trying to fix it first?
15:13
Because is is cleaner to have the OS on a disk and data elsewhere.
Which is not something I can really put in words.
why is e^-1*pi=1 beautiful ?
@HaydnWVN the owner security identifier can't be made to match, if the accounts were created separately at different times. you can't (easily) change the security identifier like you can change a UID on Linux. It's a unique GUID ish thing
Math is not bad.
what he needs to do is use UAC permission to forcibly take ownership of the files as the Win7 Administrator account, then grant full control of everything to the user account, then login as the user account (hoping it works without the user being Owner), then take ownership
Match at school is horrible though
15:15
also, if you are REALLY REALLY stuck with permissions
burn Ubuntu 12.10 to a Live CD, boot it up, and copy off all your data from your profile with NTFS-3g which as I said ignores security ACLs
@Hennes @HackToHell not sure what you are talking about per se, but superuser.com/questions/440814/… might be handy
@allquixotic Hence my 'verify they match' as if not you need to forcibly take ownership
@HaydnWVN yeah
@soandos ohhh ya good
same thing happens with a corrupted profile - windows generates a temp one, then if nothing is done and the user renames that account to their old it will appear to work, but the underlying permissions are so screwed up it's unreal
15:17
@HaydnWVN ICALC /reset?
I find it poetically appropriate that Windows 8 would have such a big problem viewing a user profile from Windows 7 with both OSes concurrently installed, and require us to delve into the internals of the NTFS filesystem and NT security descriptors in order to resolve =D
proof that not only Linux requires delving into the terminal
@soandos Didn't know about ICALC back then, ended up copying all files to a samba share, removing all accounts and starting again
it seems like such a ridiculously common use case, to install Windows 8 concurrently on the same computer as Windows 7
@soandos is it not ICACL rather than ICALC ?
double not?
Access control List, I guess ACL
its ACL :)
15:19
@allquixotic, my bad
I hate discretionary access controls anyway, they're basically smoke and mirrors if you can bypass the operating system in any way (such as uh, removing HDD from system)... I like encrypted FS for this reason :P
they are only useful at the application layer to keep ${APP1} from trampling on ${APP2} or your data
but Mandatory Access Control / Mandatory Integrity Control is much stronger even for that purpose
ya
but slightly more complex
slightly? :P
I tested Cross Domain Solutions in a past job
slightly is a huge understatement
15:21
lol
I only know these things in theory ;p
@HackToHell - What you tried to do through Windows 8, screwed up the permissions, unless you have a backup of your system there isn't much you can do. — Ramhound 9 mins ago
:'(
@HackToHell do you have strange permissions in random places?
How out of the ordinary is it?
A little out of ordinary
15:24
can you just manually recreate everything?
(manual means with a hefty amount of recursion)
@HackToHell Misha might have something... How important is your Win8 install? Take complete ownership in Win7, eradicate the Win8 install and start again?
I am wondering how, I am gonna reset all the permissions
@HaydnWVN I might do that
I did not upgrade
@HackToHell Ahhh ok, possibly safer to fix Win7 than fight with both and make things worse
Win8 on seperate partition?
@HackToHell Did you try adding that unknown user according to superuser.com/questions/440814/… ? That looks like your best bet really.
@HaydnWVN ya
I am gonna do that tomorrow, too tired for the day
15:34
@r.tanner.f Certainly worth trying before forcibly taking ownership
@HaydnWVN I will say though I've jerked Windows around by forcibly taking ownership on a daily basis. Hasn't screwed me yet, save for the time I encrypted stuff...
people think SuperUser is a forum ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh my head is gonna explode
@allquixotic You were far too nice
then again after the day i've had lol
brb reboot
15:40
coworker calls me, tells me to call him back when I've printed out some computer specs, then sets "do not disturb" on phone. >_>
oh god
@allquixotic pet peeve of mine too
0
Q: Is My Computer DEAD?

Crazy BuddyI don't know what caused my Desktop (Windows XP) to blow up. My PC freezes often. During the welcome screen, or while in Desktop or sometimes before welcome screen itself. I thought it would be some dirty activities of a virus. So, I formatted my C: partition and tried to install XP again. I'm ...

its pining for the fjords
A web application / security tester needs to answer network questions in a primal way, a very low level urging originating from the subconscious, much in the same way as biological beings feel the need to procreate
Hence....
15:48
I guess he was playing mine sweeper when the computer bloew up
2
Q: Find slow network nodes between two data centers

2called-chaosI've got a problem with syncing big amount of data between two data centers. Both machines have got a gigabit connection and are not fully occupied but the fastest that I am able to get is something between 6 and 10 Mbit => not acceptable!** Yesterday I made some traceroute which indicates huge ...

That or it was a real bomb
somebody set us up the bomb
@JourneymanGeek You have no chance to survive, make your time
@allquixotic Why on earth isn't that post on SF?
I'd say it needs some cleanu[ first

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