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15:03
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@OliverSalzburg Unsurprinsigly, it doesn't. But they force me to use this bank to get my paycheck.
> I'm a cat, so if I don't know someone, I hate them automatically
That's usually true, but last week I met a cat that behaved like a dog in that department
@ThatBrazilianGato And if you do know someone they are your slaves :)
"I've never seen you, but you're petting me, so I'll lick your hand and follow you around"
Yes, a cat was licking my hand. No, I wasn't eating tuna prior to that.
@ThatBrazilianGato Alternatively "I've never seen you, but you're petting me, so I'll bite your fingers and scratch you hand"
@allquicatic: What's the purpose of the !!/export command?
15:17
She even rolled on her back and lifted her paws so I'd scratch her belly
The trick is to offer your hand and see what happens ... if the cat is interested it will come closer and ask for attention, rub against your hand ...
@ThatBrazilianGato 0_0
@DavidPostill Yeah, I had those once or twice
@bwDraco to be used with !!import later, in case we have to move the bot to a new browser that doesn't support PhantomJS's HTML5 storage format, or in case I lose or accidentally corrupt the existing HTML5 storage
I've never been this close to kidnapping a pet. (In this case, an interstate kidnapping, nevertheless!)
15:18
without the HTML5 storage, we lose all our custom commands, mindjail list, etc.
Hmm...
Gosh. I gotta learn webdev.
That makes sense.
@bwDraco Welcome to the club, my friend.
if we ever move the bot back to Xvfb-backed Firefox or Chromium again, or to jBrowserDriver or a whole new version of PhantomJS, we will do an !!export before we take the existing bot down
the data is fairly safe on ZFS for the moment (RAID-1) as long as I keep paying the server bill :P
I think I had the idea for export/import, then Bob and I were hacking on an initial design, then after many months of the original (bad) export/import, Bob got the motivation all by himself to make it not suck
Aye. Sandboxed storage makes storing settings rather tricky for client-side apps...
HTML5 storage is pretty decent for web apps, but the on-disk format is browser-specific
15:24
Jul 20 at 18:07, by allquixotic
it has to be innate, it has to come from a place you can't control, to make you want to learn because you're curious/interested without having to find an external motivation
So should I give up and sell my HTML and JS books?
I'm on the fence here.
I kinda feel I threw almost $150 into books that have proven to be useless.
@bwDraco I should clarify - basically no one will want to learn HTML/JS/whatever just for its own sake; people usually have to "scratch an itch" -- they'll find something practical they want to actually accomplish using the tools/languages, then they'll learn it to reach that goal
that's not really innate, so much as, having a goal -- but it shouldn't be a goal like "I want a good job" or "I want to make lots of money" or "I want to be well-known / well-liked" -- a good goal is something like "I really need to develop X (because I want to)"
when I first started hacking on random shit when I was a teenager, my motivation came from wanting to help others :) Specifically, I went on IRC to get help with a problem, and ended up instead helping others with their problems and learning a lot more that way
@DavidPostill My brother and I were speculating who Randall might bere here ;p
Bob
Bob
@allquicatic lol. I think you were doing export to and import from chat then I got tired of the thing not working most of the time, mentioned pastebin a few times, and ended up using gist cause pastebin is shit now
@bwDraco I taught myself html, css and some js because I wanted to create my own website (without relying on 3rd party packages like wordpress).
I on the other hand, can't quite seem to get past the first chapter of programming books most of the time ;p
15:30
@Bob yeah, originally it was b64'ed and pasted as a big long multi-line msg
@JourneymanGeek Hmm. I never thought of that ... :)
I originally bought these books because I intended to pursue a career in web development, but I also want to learn because I wanted to make interesting web apps, given that JS is ubiquitous...
Bob
Bob
@DavidPostill My day job is mostly web dev these days. I still used Ghost last time I tried a blog, and I'll probably use it next attempt :P
Too much effort to build a stable platform from scratch.
@bwDraco that's a start, and those aren't bad motivations, but to really make yourself dig in, you'll benefit greatly from having some more tangible immediate goal, like wanting to work on a specific thing -- either for your own benefit or for someone else's or just because you find it interesting
@Bob indeed... the hallmark of a good engineer is a website which is the default nginx/apache/lighttpd page :D
@Bob It's an interesting learning experience though. And the skill come in useful later when you need to understand/debug some other canned solution that is buggy/needs tweaking or whatever.
15:32
@allquicatic >_>
I felt it was a good idea to learn a language that is used everywhere and therefore guarantees you a solid job.
If you went to my server's ip address that's what you'd find
mine too
It works!
@bwDraco nothing "guarantees" a solid job
15:33
well my own container is empty right now because lazy
a good chunk of finding a job is sheer dumb luck
Apache default page.
@JourneymanGeek BZZZZT! wrong! this is the US of A... where government employment is pretty much solid
I run lighttpd.
Bob
Bob
Eh. IMO books are not a good way to learn languages.
Often outdated, for starters.
15:34
@JourneymanGeek I could do with some of that luck stuff ...
Bob
Bob
Books can be good for concepts.
if you want a solid job, work as a government contractor or directly for the government :P
@allquicatic but is it guaranteed you'd find it?
there's a ton of federal jobs all along the eastern seaboard
in a sense a significant part of the process is who you know
15:35
he knows me :D
Bob
Bob
But people learn differently... some learn best from books. I'm not one of those.
@Bob you also randomly throw stuff together when i bitch about minor things ;p
I used to just crawl through Father's old computer books, books that dated to the 70s and 80s...
Bob
Bob
@JourneymanGeek Those are the most fun! :P
15:37
@Bob I learnt everything from books (before the web and usenet) but I only remember it if I actually use it (mostly).
Bob
Bob
Actually, those are because I don't get to work with C#/.NET much these days :(
@bwDraco You probably have some classics in that list.
Bob
Bob
It's among the first languages I learned, and possibly the one I am (was?) most familiar with.
and its not even the ones where I actually spec out the requirements properly
Bob
Bob
@DavidPostill Pretty much. I learn as I go, then promptly forget until maybe if I use it again later.
15:38
See silentcast "I need something like licecap native on linux with these features" vs "augh, this batch file is stealing focus"
@Bob Some programming books are timeless. If I could be bothered I would make a list ...
Bob
Bob
Not so much sitting down and chewing through a giant book/full tutorial/etc.
@DavidPostill Concepts. Not languages.
Then again, concepts evolve too, but far slower.
I mean, you could claim K&R as 'timeless', but in a world of C11...
@Bob Exactly. They are the important ones. The rest are just syntax.
Bob
Bob
Code Complete, Design Patterns. Concepts.
Though, I did just preorder the latest Windows Internals :P
15:40
lol
The spine's basically fallen apart on my copy :/
Bob
Bob
Dunno if I'll ever read it cover-to-cover, but I actually find those more interesting than educational books.
does ionescu still got a byline on that?
@Bob ditto, I read a lot of Windows Internals
I also read Stallman's Free Software, Free Society from cover to cover
> To adequately describe a set of procedures, a flowchart must be thorough and include every possible detail by testing for every conceivable contingency. Programmers and users who account for every possible condition will not be plagued later by numerous erroneous results.
Bob
Bob
15:41
@JourneymanGeek Yea. Russinovich too.
We don't really flowchart these days but that quote really influenced how I code.
(Page 398.)
Programming Pearls, anything on Refactoring, Algorithms, Unit Testing ...
Bob
Bob
flowcharts... *shudder*
<== very much a fan of prototyping and iteration
@Bob If you really want flowcharts you generate them from the code :)
Bob
Bob
lol
15:44
(He was one of the old ROS developers. Pretty clever guy)
I've always coded in an iterative fashion.
Bob
Bob
that doesn't really mesh with flowcharts...
Working in a team is really hard, though, when you can't easily communicate your intended design for the program.
@Bob kinda sorta
I like flowcharts for "how do things work and flow together"
15:45
The point is that you need to design for failure.
but unless you're doing programming in scrattch...
that's, like, the perfect xkcd reply to that message
Bob
Bob
flowcharts => plan everything from the start, complete plan before you start => waterfall
@Bob more "this is how I break down a complex issue into simpler ones"
Bob
Bob
*most* software doesn't really follow that model anymore
15:46
that said, I'm a visual thinker so..
Bob
Bob
@JourneymanGeek I'm referring specifically to draco's "thorough and include every possible detail" flowcharts.
A high-level design doc is useful.
yeah
that would get complicated fast
@Bob As long as somebody can be arsed to keep it up to date.
Bob
Bob
But if you start designing down to "every possible detail" you might as well just write the damn code.
I see that as a phobia of real code. A way of thinking that real code is unreadable and must have a line-for-line translation in plain English.
You need to be somewhere between
15:48
@bwDraco Hehe. You need to try pair programming (and the rest of agile) :)
Bob
Bob
Which might've been true if you were writing C or asm on an 80x60 console...
@Bob or that 'natural' language dosen't quite have the same level of dependencies as code
Bob
Bob
It also goes hand-in-hand with the "comment every line!" approach common among programming courses.
Write your code well, pick your identifiers well, and your code becomes largely self-documenting.
The details can be read straight from the code. Even some of the structure can be easily identified.
Then you make sure you document the overall design (whether before or after).
I've had my share of projects where I wound up writing almost all of the code because my teammates had trouble understanding the functions to be written, features to be implemented, overall architecture, etc
15:50
@Bob <puke> :) The code is the comments if it's written properly. Or even the tests when you write the tests first ...
Bob
Bob
@DavidPostill Self-documenting code is a thing of beauty :)
!! s/6/2/
@allquicatic Which might've been true if you were writing C or asm on an 80x20 console... (source)
thanks cavil
gah. it's supposed to be 80x24
Bob
Bob
15:51
@DavidPostill i++; // increment i
I tend to put lots of comments in my code. About 1/3 of the lines I write are comments (according to a LOC counter).
I don't comment obvious things like this but I try to explain what each function does and try to make the code understandable.
@bwDraco You should need 0 comments in the code. if you need comments it is too complex. Refactor it.
The function name says what it does ...
Bob
Bob
haven't seen it, and depends if you're counting doc-comments in there (which can be very long), but that sounds a bit much. Anyway, find your own comfort zone.
I wouldn't necessarily say you must have 0 -- sometimes there'll be a weird bit that makes you go "what?!"
It's a matter of philosophy. I do try to choose meaningful identifier names.
15:54
@Bob OK. Aim for 0.
After all, code still needs to be interpreted by the reader to understand what it does, even if self-documenting.
Bob
Bob
@DavidPostill Heh. That went out the window the other day while dealing with layout/rendering code.
Also, I saw far too many "too much recursion" errors.
My approach is that the reader should be able to understand functions, classes, etc. at a high level with the comments to guide them.
Code gets updated. Comments and documentation don't.
218
Q: What is self-documenting code and can it replace well documented code?

Adam DavisI have a colleague who insists that his code doesn't need comments, it's "self documenting." I've reviewed his code, and while it's clearer than code which I've seen others produce, I still disagree that self-documenting code is as complete and useful as well commented and documented code. Help...

22
Q: Self Documenting Code Vs. Commented Code

PhillI had a search but didn't find what I was looking for, please feel free to link me if this question has already being asked. Earlier this month this post was made: http://net.tutsplus.com/tutorials/php/why-youre-a-bad-php-programmer/ Basically to sum it up, you're a bad programmer if you don't...

Bob
Bob
As with all things, there's a balance.
Too-long functions? Generally bad. Too many tiny parts? Also often bad.
15:59
I've seen my share of bad code in class. It's too bad we're not taught to maintain a consistent style, use meaningful identifiers, intention and space appropriately, etc.
And of course from Code Complete Chapter 32: Self-Documenting Code
Bob
Bob
@DavidPostill Usually, it's function name + params + doc-comments.
@Bob This is good :)
I do care about writing readable code.
Doc comments generate the docs like javadoc :)
Bob
Bob
16:00
Where doc-comments are a slightly wordier summary/description of the method, and some usage hints. For larger systems, they might also include examples and other general remarks.
We were never taught to do doc-comments.
Bob
Bob
...wat.
Oh, "never taught to". Read that as "taught never to"
I basically wrote big comment blocks outside functions.
It's only because I'm using NetBeans to write HTML/CSS/JS code that I have some exposure to Javadoc.
Bob
Bob
@DavidPostill Oh, just to clarify - I'd consider that good for, e.g., an API reference. But if one designs an API for others to consume, there really needs to be a more general usage guide, with examples. At the very least, a starting point.
16:05
I still remember the first program I wrote at work ~1980. A basic program to calculate heat loss from a pipe. No comments and crap variable names. When I was asked to modify it only a few weeks later I had to rewrite it. <red face>. I haven't made that mistake again.
Bob
Bob
Dumping an API with just individual method and class docs can make it a real pain to figure out.
@Bob Agreed.
Bob
Bob
I've come across quite a few that thought just javadocs were enough. Uhm... ok? Do I really have to skim past dozens of utility classes I'll never touch to find the main entry point?
Even so, doc-comments don't guarantee that the documentation is any good. Look at this nonsense I found in NetBeans a while back:
May 19 '15 at 17:56, by DragonLord
This does what you think it does.
ingroup:   sorting_algorithms
Parameter:   __a A thing of arbitrary type.
Parameter:   __b Another thing of arbitrary type.
Parameter:   __comp A link:   comparison_functors comparison functorendlink:   .
Returns:   The greater of the parameters.
This will work on temporary expressions, since they are only evaluated once, unlike a preprocessor macro.
Bob
Bob
@DavidPostill Heh. I've got a folder full of programs like that.
Most quick'n'dirty things aren't really done properly.
@allquicatic :D
16:09
I may not feel it as someone who just codes as a hobby for the time being, but code consumes minds as evidenced by the existence of esolangs, code golf, obfuscated code contests, ...
@bwDraco I'm not that obsessed with code - some are - for me it's just a tool and I get my brain swimming in code when I have to dev something, but otherwise I can go days without touching code or reading it either
Why do people write such meaningless comments?
Bob
Bob
@allquicatic I find it fun to solve problems, but the novelty of codegolf wore off a while ago.
So I just rely on @JourneymanGeek coming up with weird little problems :P
Why do people write such meaningless comments?
@Bob codegolf is just mental <insert rude word here> :)
16:19
> This does what you think it does.
How is this meaningful?
Bob
Bob
Because programmers are not robots.
(sorry, my Wi-Fi wasn't cooperating)
@bwDraco The function name is a bit of a clue
I know, I know.
template<typename _Tp>
  inline const _Tp&
  min(const _Tp& __a, const _Tp& __b)
See that name that says min?
16:23
:p
That's called self-documenting code :)
It returns the min of two things. It doesn't matter what thing is since it is a template function.
The comment could have said:

@brief This returns the min of two things

Would that have provided any more semantic information?
!!no
"Returns the lesser of the parameters."
<sigh> why use long words when you can just say min?
> a: A thing of arbitrary type.
b: Another thing of arbitrary type.
c: Yet another thing of arbitrary type.
rotfl
16:30
The semantic meaning is the same.
There is probably some crap coding standard that forces them to fill in all the parameters ...
And someone has clearly done a cut/paste/edit (not that that is a bad thing in this case).
"a, b, and c may be variables or objects of any type."
!! s/variables/values/
@bwDraco That didn't make much sense. Use the !!/help command to learn more.
@bwDraco "a, b, and c may be values or objects of any type." (source)
16:46
Happened upon this answer, whose content was edited out long after it was deleted: superuser.com/a/668915 (10k only)
Can a mod advise the user to contact Stack Exchange if he wants to remove content from even 10k users?
Was this really necessary?
If the user wants content hard-deleted, he should contact SEI directly.
The timeline is a bit curious: superuser.com/posts/668915/timeline
The answer was edited out, undeleted so that a comment can be posted, and deleted again.
17:01
@bwDraco I don't see any evidence that the author wants it deleted so it can't be seen by 10kers
@bwDraco mods can redact content if it needs it, it just takes a bit longer than a normal flag
17:15
Hey all!
@Ramhound has a bounty to award upon me :3
17:42
@varfirstName It would be a shame for the bounty to fall down some stairs on to some bullets...
 
1 hour later…
18:50
ah cm14 in the staging branches
19:20
Wonder if my S4 will get it
19:36
hmmm ...
I think I need you help guys
for some reason my Firefox is lagging terribly
@tereško Have you tried turning it off and back on again?
yes
I have also cleaned out AppData
Disabled the hellspawn that is Flash?
no flash installed on the machine
Java? Any other addons?
19:39
I am running "Developer Edition"
that might be the major reason
How many tabs?
9
not related to the amount of tabs
task manager says that it's using about 1% CPU (350MB memory)
Doesn't sound like it, and if you've cleared out the appdata then shouldn't be anything else.
disabling HW rendering had no effect
Low CPU and memory (for firefox) so probably that it's not doing stuff rather than doing too much
19:42
basically, as I said: halp
I have run out of ideas
Yeah, compare to mainline version and see if problem persists would be my next step
I'm gonna try disabling extensions
Many installed?
7: gmail, feedly, ublock (would be the common ones), gif animation toggle, google image search, video blocker and tab groups (rarer ones)
disabled all and restarted - no change
20:00
I guess I will just hope that it's a known issue somewhere in FF bug track and will be fixed at some point
20:36
@tereško try FF stable
21:05
so i haven't been fired
@Burgi yey
@Burgi That's good ;p
but they have extended my probation a month because all i have done is fix servers and not do any actual web development
Got an email in my inbox from what seems to be a compromised account pointing to hxxp://branch.oakleyboone.com/Sujeidy_Ferreiras.
@Burgi That sucks. Considering you seem to have spent 3 months fixing $boss-1 mistakes ...
21:07
exactly
a lot of them aren't yet fixed
The account's sending spam.
just mitigated
I suppose you pointed that out to $boss?
21:08
yeah
They didn't care?
i don't fully understand it either
nope
i think they see it as excuses
@Burgi ffs. time to look for another job.
yeah
i'm going to start on monday
i suspect i'm not cut out for agency work but.....
Replied to the email. It's from a corporate email address for a company in Italy; hence the reply contains text in both English and Italian.
I didn't click on the link.
21:11
i told my boss if they asked me to leave then and there that i'd be happy that i tried and i'd be leaving them in a better, more secure position
this week they've been second guessing me a lot with the freelancer they have in
but luckily he has been basically backing me up
...reply bounced.
Headers were probably spoofed.
the good news is that M$ accepted responsibilty for our deleted email account and have restored it
but we have lost 24 hours of emails
god only knows what crazy shit was sent in that time
we are paying $1000 a year for something called vaultpress
we don't pass that cost on to the client
the next invoice goes out on thursday....
a grand!
for some crazy wordpress plugin
brb, need another beer
ouch
Do I get a business laptop for business work?
Even with BYOD, I'd much prefer to have full isolation, rather than mix work and personal materials on the same machine.
That's considering that many companies require that ultimate control of the device be relinquished to them for security reasons.
That's more likely to be an issue with bigger companies, but I'm still concerned about security...
21:25
@bwDraco are you asking if you should opt-in to BYOD? I saw some very convincing arguments against that, for example getting them wiped when you leave your job, or having to keep their tracking software even when you are using it on your personal times for personal reasons.
This is why I'm insisting on separate devices.
@bwDraco containers :D
lol
If my company asks me to BYOD and does not supply its own devices, what happens if I refuse? Do I risk getting terminated?
@bwDraco depends on the company - some companies may not have a system they can buy you, or not have budget to do so
big, slow, (old) corporations will generally default to providing you their own corporate-owned equipment, and you have to opt-in to BYOD
if they just assume you'll BYOD and don't say a word about them giving you any equipment, you may end up having to buy something to keep employed
My personal preference is to own my hardware, but have a separate device dedicated for work purposes.
June 2 (you remember, right?) has made me very leery about security.
22:00
Somehow old Dilbert strips are so relevant to Windows 10
Another anti-trust suit "Dear Class Member:
Our records indicate that you have purchased a new computer or laptop with an internal Optical Disk Drive (ODD) or a
stand-alone ODD designed for internal or external use between April 1, 2003 and December 31, 2008. You are eligible for
up to $10/drive from settlements reached in antitrust litigation currently pending in Federal court
"•The Panasonic Settlement provides for a $16.5 million to a settlement fund.
•The NEC Settlement provides for a $6.5 million settlement fund.
•The Sony Settlement provides for a $28.5 million settlement fund.
•The HLDS Settlement provides for a $73 million settlement fund."
100million dollers and my share is $10? Lol certannly not worth signing up for.
and the bigger problem isnt how much i paid for it, which was strange pricing at the time. but the totaly loss of quality in any of them anymore.
used to be . . . they had the laser diode properly cooled. now from what i can tell the thing will generally DIE over time, as if it was designed to die.
Couldnt do better if they had china death chips in them (thats from a movie)
soo much shi| so little time
 
1 hour later…
23:23
looks like a new nigerian scam imo
'our records indicate, you are male or you are female...'
23:38
Uploading part 8435 out of 8448 of a 550 GB backup!!! :DDDDDD
it's been running for weeks and it has come to this moment
14 tasks left...
crc failed, please restart your upload.
No, it does hashes per part
FastGlacier has proven itself to be very reliable.
fast glacier? i thought glaciers were slow, and melting badly
Yeah but the Titanic was slower.
Wait... glacier... iceberg... nope was thinking the wrong thing.
Neeeever mind!
an iceberg used to be part of a glacier.
23:51
6 tasks left... hype hype hype hype hype
@Psycogeek You might be eligible for more, but often times the majority of that money goes to lawyers. One time my dad just put his name on some class-action suit for unsolicited faxes and he got something ridiculous like $800.
It just depends on how much of that money is actually getting used for claims.
If not many people sign up to claim damages, then those claimants could receive max compensation.
they said the leftovers go to the goverment this time?
maybe they are referring to DoJ?
They make a lot of money from lawsuits.

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