Charcoal HQ

Magisch

2:00 PM

Also

Undo

Maybe metasmoke could just drop old feedback on a post when new feedback from the same user comes in

Magisch

We need a very detailed guide about what feedback to give when. Seems like quite a few privileged users seem to have differing opinions there

Andy

Is there a problem with conflicts?

Magisch

@Undo That would be also sufficient

Ferrybig

I believe there are 2 meta smoke admins at the moment, I can ask undo to admin myself to become the third, if we need this frequent feedback nukes

Magisch

2:00 PM

you can handfix blacklisting or such

Andy

Doesn't that show that that specific rule or that specific post was unclear in how it should be handled?

Magisch

@SmokeDetector f

Currently the policy on self vandalism, merely self promotion, random gibberish, cat over the keyboard or so

Ferrybig

The post was unclear, but not spam, and smokey is only for spam

Magisch

is generally known

but not entirely clear

SmokeDetector

[ SmokeDetector ] Few unique characters in body, repeating characters in body, repeating characters in title, repeating words in body, title has only one unique char: aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa by olbrun on diy.stackexchange.com …

Ferrybig

2:02 PM

Self vadalism is really unclear everywhere, so do f, others tp- and others do ignore-

Magisch

Some people like to mark self vandalism as sd k, some people use sd tp- and some use sd f

Ferrybig

@SmokeDetector ignore (looks like self vandalism + delete)

SmokeDetector

@Ferrybig Post ignored; alerts about it will no longer be posted.

Magisch

What I mean is we need a very specific guideline for corner cases

Andy

And that is why keeping the conflicting information is important. We can see who is flagging things against what is expected and reeducate them

Magisch

2:03 PM

well

if they change their feedback on a post

that is because either they changed their opinion or it was an error

at which point the need for re-education is gone

Undo

Still indicates a place where we can give guidance

Ferrybig

I really think we should keep all posts in this chatroom, even if the post was false positives, helps us finding them back if something wentwrong with flagging

Andy

In either case: Slow down when reviewing

Magisch

Human error will always happen

Andy

Despite what some think, flagging isn't a race to see who can get the most. The goal is accuracy not quantity.

Ferrybig

2:04 PM

I always reread the post after casting my spam flag to double check it was really spam

Undo

I'm almost tempted to do a few 'audits' on legit posts and see just how bad the reflex-flagging is

Ferrybig

@Undo good idea, :D

Magisch

regardless wether or not we have alot of reflex flagging

people will think we do

some posts we destroyed were from otherwise normal users

Undo

Links?

Magisch

I often thought to myself "That must feel like beeing bullied"

Undo

2:06 PM

Heard that a lot, but I've never once seen it actually happen

Andy

@Magisch Part of the problem with that perception is how you are describing it. "Destroyed".

Ferrybig

@Undo you should post a chat message from the smokedetecotr account manually that says as reason "Are you paying attention" and the link to the post goes to a "rick roll"

Andy

No. Smokey isn't for that.

Undo

@Ferrybig heh

Magisch

@Undo stackoverflow.com/a/36477201/1743880

Thats NAA <-> garbage

Undo

2:08 PM

@Magisch that's abusive

Magisch

I've seen posts by normal users like that (which could be anything from spam seeds to misclicks) get abusive-destroyed

Imagine you're such a user

you post some random gibberish, maybe your keyboard failed

Undo

Okay

Magisch

and 30s later you get -100 rep and a answer ban

or even your account gets destroyed

Now the site views you as a threat

Undo

And yet somehow I clicked the button, put my email and username in, then my keyboard failed, then I clicked 'post'?

Ferrybig

I think gibberish should be handled with a abusive flag, like stackexchange recommends

Magisch

2:10 PM

Well sometimes these are normal users who were writing a reply but messed it up

Andy

And, for a destroyed account, you were probably a new user anyway. Mods don't just destroy a user that has history for one crap post

Undo

@Andy this

16

A: Is a post such like 'assdddsssafffwq' spam?

These are abusive, and should be flagged as such (rude/offensive). Those flags should be marked helpful (as should 'spam', 'very low quality', and 'not an answer'. They all apply). Here's my reasoning: We are a professional site. Imagine you're at a conference. You walk into a group of professi...

Magisch

I wouldn't most likely but you can fall victim to that surely

Undo

@Magisch Have an example of an obviously legit user that got their post blasted?

Magisch

Maybe its conjecture, but it feels like breaking someone's face with a sledgehammer rather then throwing them out

not on hand no

the fact that I can't see deleted posts doesn't help in looking

Undo

2:11 PM

You have metasmoke reports

As soon as this problem leaves the theoretical world and becomes practical, we can look at doing something

Magisch

What also happens

sometimes on sd n posts or self vandalism we get a slew of instant downvotes

People are already describing us as a creepy voting ring or cabal, though

Undo

How many people?

Andy

@Undo I can only think of one recently, and it was solved on Meta and doesn't appear to involve Smokey at all

Magisch

Reads like project spam. SO users have a pretty good record detecting crap like this without the help of a bot. Well, other than the OP :) This kind of organized witch hunting is very creepy. — Hans Passant 19 hours ago

I don't think we are doing bad stuff

just how it can easily seem that way when you're not involved

Undo

I honestly don't care if people think "we" are a cabal, I care as soon as we are actually doing harm

PeterJ

2:15 PM

The value of stuff like SmokeDetector isn't so much that this stuff wouldn't get caught otherwise, @Hans... It's that it might not get caught as quickly. Two minutes after that answer was deleted, the same user tried to post on another question... But was blocked by the system since his previous answer had been identified as spam. This is a minor convenience on Stack Overflow, but a huge boon to other sites where a delay might mean dozens of such answers waiting for a moderator to wake up. — Shog9 ♦ 19 hours ago

Undo

Which no one has a solid example of yet

Andy

@Magisch Let's work through this aspect a bit. What causes the down votes?

Is it because the question is bad? Or because someone posts a link in the chat room and says "cv-pls"?

Ferrybig

Its mainly the smoke detector posts that get the downvotes, not the cv-pls

Andy

What is the difference between what Smokey reports and what the cv-pls posts report?

Magisch

smokey reports indicate something that a bot thinks is spam

so its generally unconfirmed by a human until a human does so

Andy

2:17 PM

What happens when you flag something as spam?

Magisch

a cv-pls is something made by a human

A downvote

but Im not talking about actual spam

stuff thats unworthy of spam flags gets drive by downvotes anyways

Ferrybig

Its mostly the posts that are "requires editing"

Magisch

or drive by spamflags, which would be considerably worse even

Undo

What's wrong with NAAs getting downvotes?

Magisch

stuff like self vandalism

Andy

2:18 PM

@Undo Nothing and I'll continue to use my downvotes

Undo

Once NAAs are deleted, the only thing that contributes to is the user's answer ban. Which... isn't a bad thing.

Magisch

or questions with repeating chars in debug output

Undo

Self-vandalism.... usually isn't on awesome questions to begin with.

If we're going to 'fix' this, we'll need to 'fix' the meta effect too.

Magisch

The problem is small

but its the same problem as with cv pls

Ferrybig

Feedback suggestion: Required editing - used for posts that should be edited/ are edited (example: vandalism / bypassing of the post body limit)

Magisch

2:19 PM

it makes us seem like a voting ring to outsiders

Andy

@Undo Solution: Get rid of meta! Go back to 2008!

Undo

Again, I'm fine with being a voting ring as long as we aren't causing harm.

Magisch

Have a look at that: stackoverflow.com/questions/35653315/…

Undo

can't speak for SOCVR, of course, which is probably where this really originates.

Magisch

I can't see it now, but I think it was smoke-reported

Undo

2:20 PM

@Magisch there were never any spam flags on that

Magisch

and it may even have been me :o

PeterJ

@Magisch Someone being a dick vandalizing their posts wastes others time reverting

Magisch

@Undo they were presumably cleared

I raised a custom flag about that

Undo

@Magisch no, I looked.

Magisch

This user's question and self answer were nuked out of low orbit with spam flags, the answer deleted due to 6 spam flags. In hindsight it might not have been spam after all. Maybe the user just understands poorly how the self Q/A here works. What Im saying is the Q/A was most likely merely bad, not worth the low orbit spam nuke. Would appreciate if a mod could clear them and not make the user lose all of his rep over this. – Magisch Feb 26 at 14:07 helpful

Undo

2:21 PM

@Magisch Which is literally the only flag ever raised on that post.

Andy

!!/test In my Swift project I need to use PDF assets rather than tons of PNGs. I know it's possible with Objective-C with the Image+PDF open source project, but I need it without Objective-C bridging. Are there any options I can use?

SmokeDetector

> Would not be caught for title, body, and username.

Magisch

I remember flagging the answer to that as spam

Andy

Didn't think so

Undo

oh, the answer got spam nuked

!!/test UIImage+PDF provides a UIImage class category method to render a UIImage from any PDF stored in the application bundle. The motivation for this was to enable the easy use of scaleable vector assets in Swift iOS apps. <a href="https://github.com/RomanBambura/Swift-UIImage-PDF">Swift UIImage+PDF</a>

SmokeDetector

2:22 PM

> Url in title
----------
Title - Position 227-245: https://github.com

Undo

But it wouldn't have been caught by Smokey either

Magisch

Someone reported it

might even have been me

Undo

It was you, yes

metasmoke.erwaysoftware.com/post/19254

Magisch

Not sure what happened after my modflag, but I remember it beeing my attempt to clean the situation up

Ferrybig

The "spammy" answer seems like NAA to me

Undo

2:24 PM

@Ferrybig well, it links to his own project

Magisch

Well

Undo

so it's technically undisclosed self-promotion

Magisch

I reported it and it got nuked

hard

and that was a "legit" user

Andy

What was your expected outcome if you reported it?

Magisch

I later saw that that was a fail by me, hence my modflag

I've been significantly more careful with reports since

Undo

2:25 PM

So... I'm starting to see a pattern here: SOCVR is having a hard time doing it right.

SmokeDetector

[ SmokeDetector ] Bad keyword in answer: How to share COM ports from hyper-V by Mandy Floost on askubuntu.com …

Magisch

sd why

Andy

@Magisch Which brings me back to:

SmokeDetector

@Magisch [:28829037] Body - Position 489-495: eltima

Andy

21 mins ago, by Andy

In either case: Slow down when reviewing

Magisch

2:26 PM

Thats what I mean with getting more specific guidelines

sometimes we are a bit ... harsh with nuking posts over there

not sure if unsavory self promotion is worthy of a nuke from orbit always

Undo

I honestly have no problem with that being 6-flag nuked

Ferrybig

@SmokeDetector Seems false to me, didn't check for disclosure

Magisch

@Ferrybig That user has another, proper post

f imo

Undo

sd f

SmokeDetector

@Undo [:28829052] That message is not a report.

Undo

2:28 PM

@SmokeDetector f

Marshmallow

Mod-nuked, though.

Undo

great, now I get to learn another new name

Magisch

Well, im going home now (currently at work)

See y'all this evening

PeterJ

@Ferrybig Yeah I'm mixed on those Eltima posts - I used their products years ago and a few are fairly good / unique so I could imagine others recommending them.

Undo

in SOCVR Room Meetings on Stack Overflow Chat, 2 days ago, by gunr2171

> Are we okay with having a lot of members being privileged Smokey users? Should only RO be privileged in SOCVR and let members be privileged in Charcoal HQ if they really want to?

maybe this isn't a bad idea

Or at least seriously prune the users list

Magisch

2:29 PM

We had a long talk about that in the meeting

the outcome was we are okay with that

Undo

in SOCVR Room Meetings on Stack Overflow Chat, 2 days ago, by Undo

No, and this isn't really something for SOCVR to worry about.

Not really SOCVR's decision

hichris123

Hmm... one thing that I did notice is there were a lot of fps on SO today. Maybe we should try to reduce those.

Undo

ultimately, we're the ones that Shog is going to ping when people abuse this, so... it's our responsibility. I have no problems wielding authority to meet that responsibility.

@hichris123 More than usual, yeah

Magisch

In the current climate of socvr

a !!/report equals almost instant destruction

Ferrybig

@Magisch Unless the post author is Undo

Magisch

2:32 PM

So that is quite a bit of power you wield there

Anyways, bb in 1 hour or so

Marshmallow

We could disable some reasons for SO, such as link-at-end-of-answer.

Ferrybig

Is mostly the reflex votes that are annoying, how many people would notice it if we use a fake stackoverflow site that looks real to see how many people are going to flag it

hichris123

!!/isblu stackoverflow.com/u/6072079

SmokeDetector

@hichris123 User is not blacklisted (6072079 on stackoverflow.com).

Undo

@Ferrybig nah, just use the real one and I can decline flags as they come in

If anyone has a sufficiently spammy-looking false positive handy on SO, we can run a little test

hichris123

2:34 PM

@Marshmallow Yeah... the annoying thing is half of those are tps and half are fps.

Ferrybig

If we do it enough times, they will get a scary warning if they try to flag again, :D

Undo

here we go

!!/report stackoverflow.com/a/36478859/1849664

SmokeDetector

[ SmokeDetector ] Manually reported answer: Who will give me a better demo of “DropDownMenu” for iOS? by PKT on stackoverflow.com …

Undo

well okay then. Drat.

So... yeah. Maybe we do have a problem here.

hichris123

@Marshmallow Looks like link at end of answer isn't too bad actually... metasmoke.erwaysoftware.com/….

(and the two posts marked as fps today were someone mass-spamming questions)

Marshmallow

2:39 PM

Full picture, including NAAs: metasmoke.erwaysoftware.com/…

Ferrybig

@Undo Can you share how many flags came in?

Undo

Not really

other than that it was > -1

ArtOfCode

@Undo MS PR. Would have been in yesterday, had I had a decent net connection.

PeterJ

I had it in on my screen at -4 when deleted, although I'd downvoted because it generally sucked so somewhere between -1 < -3

Undo

@ArtOfCode Oh nice, thanks

Marshmallow

2:42 PM

@hichris123 This one has two TPs, but it's someone posting a link to an open source library that does things like the OP wants. metasmoke.erwaysoftware.com/post/24017

So I question the accuracy of feedback on those.

hichris123

yeah... :/

But then there's posts like metasmoke.erwaysoftware.com/post/24080

ArtOfCode

@Marshmallow That's more NAA than spam, without even reading the question.

Ferrybig

The repeating characters in body is the category that has the worst feedback

ArtOfCode

also, Marshmallow == 404?

Undo

@ArtOfCode Yeah

I recognize the uid :P

hichris123

2:44 PM

Good ol' Slim, yes.

Marshmallow

But if they get nuked indiscriminately, NAAs and spam alike, then it's better not to report.

Andy

I'm concerned about this:

in SO Close Vote Reviewers on Stack Overflow Chat, 6 mins ago, by Petter Friberg

@Undo No spam flag, but you made us close vote the question....

Ferrybig

@ArtOfCode Click on the profile, click to parent site, and check the github name

Undo

okay, here's a thought: What if we took away only manual reporting from SOCVR?

ArtOfCode

If things that shouldn't be getting spam-nuked are getting spam-nuked because of manual reports and SOCVR's reaction to that, then we and SOCVR have a problem.

hichris123

2:45 PM

@Andy It wasn't a good question though...

ArtOfCode

@Ferrybig click overload

Ferrybig

~~NormalHuman, Sally, 404,~~ Marshmallow never changes the github username

ArtOfCode

or considering the site, clickoverflow.

Undo

@ArtOfCode How are you running MS without getting errors about UTF8 stuff?

hichris123

@Undo It doesn't seem like there are too many false reports.

ArtOfCode

2:47 PM

@Undo EC2

Don't ask me how it works, but it works

Undo

well okay then

Marshmallow

How about SOCVR => unwanted reasons => link at end, and maybe some others where NAA and spam get mixed up. They'd be still reviewed over here.

Undo

Next time run git add -p on db/schema.rb and don't add the charset changes.

Andy

@hichris123 But "made us close vote"? That implies they are flagging things that pop up and not looking at the posts at all

hichris123

I think that was just a poor choice of words...

ArtOfCode

2:48 PM

@Undo Sure. I didn't actually notice that happened, I just ran rails db:schema:dump to update it and threw it at git.

Petter Friberg

No you are not interpreting it correctly.

hichris123

@Marshmallow I think that would be a good idea.

Undo

@Marshmallow Here's one: How about we exclude manually reported posts from SOCVR?

Or at least exclude manually reported posts reported in SOCVR from being posted there.

Marshmallow

They are posted anyway, everyone sees the link in the report.

So I don't see what this achieves.

Petter Friberg

@Andy If a answer comes in from smokey, with link only, that will make us look at the question, if question is request of off-site resource we will CV it (this is what I meant)

Undo

2:50 PM

@Marshmallow But not in the Smokey format which apparently elicits blind flagging.

Marshmallow

I don't know. If people want to tell others in the same room: "here's spam, go flag", they can always do that.

Except we won't even have record of it happening.

ArtOfCode

How about we try some education as well? Someone should drop over to SOCVR and simply say "don't blindly flag Smokey reports or you can't have nice things".

Undo

Here's what I think the problem is: Smokey has become too good, and people are relying on its judgement too much.

4

ArtOfCode

That.

Andy

Damn bots

Kill them all

Undo

2:52 PM

in SO Close Vote Reviewers on Stack Overflow Chat, 8 secs ago, by Undo

Don't blindly flag Smokey reports or you can't have nice things.

there

ArtOfCode

It's good, but it's not good enough to go blind flagging. Yet.

Andy

@PetterFriberg Thanks for the clarification

Undo

There are some reason/site/rep combinations that I'd be comfortable with people blind-flagging, but not all of them, and definitely not manual reports.

ArtOfCode

When I reviewed manual reports in the Great Review Sprint, I was reviewing false positive on ~20% of reports. 1 in 5 reports being incorrect is well over the acceptable threshold. In fact, people blindly flagging those are actually over the threshold where I'd seriously consider taking mod action to stop them.

Undo

@ArtOfCode What was the time distribution on those, though?

Ferrybig

2:56 PM

in SO Close Vote Reviewers on Stack Overflow Chat, 21 secs ago, by DavidG

I wonder if there's any way to make Smokey do audits...

ArtOfCode

@Undo shrug

@Ferrybig Yeah, I've been wondering that for a while. Metasmoke is a great tool, I'm sure we could bend it to that somehow.

Undo

Sometime I need to pull data on the overall t/f ratios by week or something

ArtOfCode

sd f

hichris123

!!/rmblu stackoverflow.com/u/4601900

SmokeDetector

@hichris123 User is not blacklisted.

Magisch

3:08 PM

@Marshmallow I was one of the people that sd k ed that

the site if you go through with it looks quite shady

Marshmallow

You mean promisekit.org looks shady?

Magisch

Yes

ArtOfCode

I... can't say I agree

Magisch

link only is bad

link only to a shady website is worse

when you then also dont have any decent posts or very few others ... that sets off my red flags

Undo

that's a GH project with almost 5k stars

not really all that shady

Magisch

3:12 PM

Are you seeing the same website as I am?

ArtOfCode

@Undo did you deploy that PR and something's broken, or was it just a merge?

Undo

@ArtOfCode Haven't deployed yet, testing stuff

You broke a few tests :p

ArtOfCode

@Undo I'm good at that

Magisch

That looks less shady then with css errors

@ my workplace it was a scrolldown corporate thing with broken formatting

I remember that one because our kaspersky thing screamed in protest

btw @Undo That "Audit you did

how many flags did that get?

ArtOfCode

more than -1

Undo

3:15 PM

@Magisch abs(flags) > -1

mod agreement.

Magisch

What does that mean?

more then -1 could be 0

ArtOfCode

It's data that can't be shared.

Comes under the moderator agreement.

Magisch

Ahh

The moderator NDA

curious that how many flags a post has falls under that

Undo

stackoverflow.com/legal/moderator-agreement

Magisch

I often see mods mention how many flags something had when they clear it though

ArtOfCode

3:17 PM

@Magisch They... technically shouldn't.

Undo

It's not a lose-your-diamond thing, but when you've been on the team for less than a month you're a little more careful than you otherwise would be.

@ArtOfCode actually, reading the agreement, it says "PII"

Magisch

I understand

Anyways

Maybe we need some more strict guidelines on how to use smokey

ArtOfCode

@Undo Heh, been a while since I saw it.

@Magisch Maybe we do...

Undo

Maybe we need to take it out of SOCVR for a week or two, and 'reset' things a little

Marshmallow

Or, do the same as with the Tavern - > 5 min delay

ArtOfCode

3:19 PM

Does SOCVR only get SO posts, or everything?

Marshmallow

So stuff can be dismissed as f or n before being posted.

Undo

@ArtOfCode deployed

@ArtOfCode Only SO

ArtOfCode

nice

Magisch

I'd wager that the SOCVR room owners definately do care if they look like a voting ring though

we get enough crap as is for the cv-pls

Undo

@Marshmallow that actually sounds like a good idea

Magisch

3:21 PM

@SmokeDetector f

Marshmallow

It was @hichris123 that implemented that delay for the Tavern, it's somewhat nontrivial.

Magisch

the "repeating characters in body" is a quite heavy source of sd f in so

often people use long single char chains as debug output

Marshmallow

We do try to avoid it by comparing the number of characters to length of posts. Maybe not trying hard enough.

Why not just limit that reason to posts under 200 characters, for example? Still catches self-vandalism, but not other stuff.

Undo

@Marshmallow Sounds sane

Maybe disable it completely if the post has code blocks anywhere.

Petter Friberg

You should check who spammed flag, my feeling is that it was not privileged user. you don't have a problem of people reporting post's incorrectly, if you have something, you have people flagging incorrectly the result of smokey.... and that I guess can happen in any room, even if a user is in this room.

ArtOfCode

3:23 PM

@Undo when you've got a few, that new admin tool could do with pagination. I couldn't figure it out. No rush, though.

Undo

@ArtOfCode you mean the one with eight records? :P

ArtOfCode

@Undo So far.

Undo

Yeah, true

Pagination wouldn't be too hard there

ArtOfCode

that's why no rush

Copying the format from the posts index didn't work.

Spam or no?

Magisch

@ArtOfCode that was one of three by this user

promoting the library

his company makes

without proper disclosure. madara nuked him and all 3 of his posts were destroyed

@ferry 's and my sd k happened after the third post

tuna sd f d them as they came in

ArtOfCode

3:28 PM

Oh right. The user is still there, the posts are gone. Spam, then.

@Magisch while you're here, what was your thinking here?

Magisch

If that was the 2 before that that I sd k ed

that was user error

ferry pointed it out to me afterwards

ArtOfCode

sd f

Magisch

@ArtOfCode Markus Hyett is Product Manager at Arachnys, the company that makes the library he linked to 3 times in a row :p

SmokeDetector

[ SmokeDetector ] Link at end of answer: Is it possible to crossfade songs on an iPhone? by Fabrizio Bartolomucci on apple.stackexchange.com …

ArtOfCode

Fair enough. Do try to ping one of us if you get it wrong (probably me), so that I don't look at the logs and wonder whether you're sane :)

sd n

hichris123

3:31 PM

@Marshmallow It wouldn't be hard, but I'm not sure SO posts get quick feedback in here (the CVR is fairly quick on that, of course). And if there's no quick feedback, it doesn't really matter.

Marshmallow

!!/pull

SmokeDetector

Restart: API quota is 3626.

Marshmallow

@hichris123 Then I think adding metasmoke.erwaysoftware.com/reason/73 to SOCVR / unwanted reasons is the way to go.

hichris123

Yeah, probably.

Undo

@Marshmallow concur

ArtOfCode

3:40 PM

@Undo that email I sent you a couple days ago? Just identified another, by the looks - metasmoke.erwaysoftware.com/admin/invalidated

Undo

@ArtOfCode eh, thanks

We need an admin page that shows all of a single user's feedback

ArtOfCode

on it

Magisch

@ArtOfCode Is that me? (please dont be me)

ArtOfCode

This is exactly why I built that tool :)

@Magisch nope

Undo

@Magisch we can't exactly run around saying who it isn't

ArtOfCode

3:42 PM

but again I can't keep saying who it's not

Magisch

well

if it ever is me, you can say in public

ArtOfCode

We probably need to establish what we should do for people we identify, actually. It'd be good to be consistent.

hichris123

As long as people aren't flagging incorrectly I'm not sure it's a big deal. If someone mistakenly marks a tp as fp or fp as tp, that doesn't matter. But if they're flagging something as spam that isn't spam...

Undo

@hichris123 The only real harm is that it messes with our stats

ArtOfCode

I'm not overly worried about people reviewing reports wrong, but if they flag the same as they review then it's worth a mod looking into their flags.

Undo

3:46 PM

At which point... maybe the policy should be "ping them and tell them how to mark feedback" followed by "just flag one of their posts and leave it"

Ferrybig

@ArtOfCode will do next time, :)

Magisch

Maybe most people dont realise how powerful smokey is

ArtOfCode