Here There Be Dragons

bobble

02:14

@AncientSwordRage *all genders

AncientSwordRage

02:37

@bobble thank you

bobble

mod powers

AncientSwordRage

10:16

@bobble I am powered by modulo arithmatic

A. B.

16:52

Don't talk to me about modulo arithmetic, I've been having another look at the CicadaSolvers server :-P :-D

kidding, it's fun actually. Well, the codes (including the aforementioned modulo arithmetic) are fun, wondering when the moderators are next going to randomly wipe out a chunk of your postings less so.

A. B.

18:43

277

Q: Bye Stack Exchange, I'm done. Coerced speech is incompatible with freedom

From your official FAQ (now deleted and replaced, see update below) about the Code of Conduct revisions (I've bolded the parts that I find objectionable): Q9: Do I have to use pronouns I’m unfamiliar or uncomfortable with (e.g., neopronouns like xe, zir, ne... )? Yes, if those are stated by the ...

I didn't know about this. I'm thinking of leaving.

Someone_Evil

Uhm... about what aspect? And I suppose then for what reason?

A. B.

18:59

Mmmm... I am very uncomfortable with being made to express agreement with the whole "gender identity" thing, (with the idea that that's how it works, I mean), for reasons that I'm reconsidering whether I want to explain in front of everybody.

Basically, being required to talk in terms of that being how it works makes me very uncomfortable, because if we've got to express things in terms of everyone having to have an "identity", then I have one, too. I miss the time when being male, female or neither was an accident of birth and not your fault, and wasn't a statement of some kind.

Someone_Evil

19:24

There's a lot of things that are (perhaps understandably) only vaguely pointed at, and that I have nowhere near the expertise to speak confidently about, so I'll try to leave it at my perspective of that CoC aspect, which is that respecting pronouns are simply a simple extension of the respect and Niceness that is expected across the board.

As for identity, there's a lot more to that concept than gender identity, and I've found it useful to distinguish between things you (incidentally) are, and things you define yourself by. And then acknowledge that it can be startling when someone defines themselves by an aspect which to you is only incidental

I'll save myself going through it unless anyone's interested, but I pose that it applies to many different things, sports(teams), various fandoms, etc

A. B.

20:02

Heh, that last line is how I think of it, and I'm interested to see someone else suggesting it. But I'm not sure that that's in line with the way you're officially required to say it is. Although I may of course be misinformed about that.

NautArch

@A.B. I don't have a ton of time right now, but I'm having a difficult time understanding why someone asking you to use a certain term for them is problematic. Instead of thinking of it like "That term", what if it's just their name? Like, "Hi, please call me Alex" followed by "Nah, I don't really agree or like that, I'm going to call you Pat."

It's really pretty simple from my viewpoint. You call people what they like to be called. End of story.

A. B.

20:43

@NautArch Addressed to you or anybody else that cares to read it or nobody if nobody does: How do you use the fancy pronouns without implying that gender is, indeed, a statement of some kind about what kind of person you are?

Thomas Markov

@A.B. Yeah, I don’t think anyone is asking you to embrace a worldview you disagree with. Your worldview isn’t affected if I change my display name, why would it be affected if I change my preferred pronoun on my profile? For you, this needs only be “how does this person want to be called in this online space”. Complying with that preference should have zero ramifications for your personal beliefs.

NautArch

@A.B. The point again is that what you think has absolutely zero bearing on what someone else does. All they are asking is that you call them what they want. But if this is another discussion about neopronouns, we're not doing that.

A. B.

And I know there is no "identity" that I could currently be comfortable with that wouldn't be going too far, so, well.

It's not about what I think I am, although there's such a barrage of it lately that I'm beginning to think I'm wrong and I really am what they say I am, it's about what I have to tell other people that I am, if you see what I mean.

NautArch

I do not. But if you are having issues with your self-identity, I'd very much recommend getting some help and talking to a professional.

A. B.

Ha ha funny joke.

If you knew.

(And, looking at that thing I just said, I am not at all surprised you don't see what I mean. :-D)

Ah well, you just can't legislate for not fitting in, I suppose.

Basically: I've been ill and to various extents basically living down a hole since I was thirteen. Asking me what gender of adult I identify as is like asking me what breed of cow I identify as.

But, apparently, that is agreed to be significant while the other is not. So excuse me if I don't feel at home anywhere that pushes that world-view.

Returning to practical topics, can you be done for not using any pronouns at all?

G. Moylan

20:57

@A.B. Some people prefer to not use pronouns, that is indeed a thing. I don't thin kit's terribly common, but it is a thing

A. B.

I know this is a Meta question, but I just can't face the kind of argument it would probably lead to.

G. Moylan

But at any rate, why would it matter if other people do it or not? Do what feels right for you

A. B.

I mean, not using any pronouns at all to refer to anybody?

NautArch

@A.B. But you can not opt to do that if someone wants to be called something. I mean, I guess you can just avoid using pronouns in general, but that's going to get odd with how a lot of languages work,

G. Moylan

it will also likely be perceived as rude

A. B.

20:58

You may have seen me committing some very odd sentences lately. :-P

Right. Had I better just crawl back down my hole, then?

Someone_Evil

We're only referring to 3rd person singular pronouns, presumably :)

NautArch

No, but please don't actively be rude to anyone.

Someone_Evil

I think some phrasings which avoid pronouns will be read as very formal (think legal-like), which may read as odd (I think I've talked about registries before, but don't remember who with)

A. B.

Registries?

G. Moylan

I think it's as simple as "I want to be called this, please refer to me this way." And that's the end of it. If someone feels like they fit into a group that uses a certain label, that's on them. I don't see how that conflicts with a worldview where you don't see yourself fitting into a group

If they put stock in it and you don't, why do you care? At least that's the way I see it.

A. B.

21:02

Because I have to live with them.

But, as I say, you can't legislate for that.

Nothing to be done about it.

Someone_Evil

@A.B. Different registries of speech. How you might talk to your boss or college and how you might talk with friends are two different registries. It applies to digital as well, but manifests slightly differently

A. B.

Oh, I see, I know what you mean but don't remember hearing that term before.

G. Moylan

@Someone_Evil I've heard that called "coding" as well

A. B.

To be fair, it's going to be pretty rare that I need to use pronouns at all on SE.

It's ironic really, I always used to positively enjoy using the different pronouns until things started to be so dictatorial about it.

NautArch

It isn't dictatorial, and that is very much the wrong way of looking at it.

It is about people and their choices. Respecting those choices when dealing with them is all that they are asking.

G. Moylan

21:09

Getting mad at people asking you to use certain pronouns to refer to them is like getting mad at a stranger for wishing you a merry christmas if you aren't christian. Just because your worldview might not agree with someone else's doesn't mean their viewpoint is invalid or wrong or hostile.

Also, at the end of the day, we're all people. We might choose to further categorize ourselves, but we're still all people. And treating people with respect isn't exempted by them subscribing to one or another category of people-ness.

@G.Moylan I would like to amend this by saying peoples' good faith views, since I see how it could be misinterpreted as me saying that everyone's views are valid no matter what

A. B.

21:28

Does anyone here happen to know, I've been wondering: is there actually supposed to be any difference in meaning between "ze", "xe", "ne" and so on, or is it just a matter of taste that some people want one rather than another?

A. B.

21:41

It feels kinda like being required to wish other people a merry christmas when you aren't Christian, but OK, I'll just try not to post any more than I can manage.

It's hard because I'm lonely, but I'll try.

That right?

L Cooper

Being lonely isn't the fault of trans folks, and being respectful of pronouns is sort of a baseline for making more friends, fwiw.

bobble

There's a few different kinds of speech here:
1- Phrasing things in the way someone asked you to (e.g. using neopronous)
2- Phrasing things in the way someone asked you not to (e.g. misgendering)
3- Rearranging sentences so neither 1) nor 2) occurs (e.g. using names)
4- Not saying anything
I think everyone can agree that 2) is bad. People may object to doing 1). If we come into this with the assumption that people want to make some speech - so 4) is not an option - then 3) is what people (who don't want to do 1) are left with.

I think the kerfuffle was that the CoC seemed to say if you applied 3) to a certain group of people and refused to do 1), that was not allowed. Thus people felt like they were being compelled to use 1) when they didn't want to.

(It's possible I've entirely misinterpreted all of the discussions, though)

@bobble it might have just been the FAQ to the CoC, maybe?

L Cooper

@bobble It's pretty common for people to do this to trans folks, though, and believe me, we notice. It's still awkward and othering, and it's extremely obvious that the person is doing it out of a fundamental refusal to respect us.

That's regarding option #3, sorry if that's not clear.

G. Moylan

Which is why I mentioned it would likely be perceived as rude

bobble

Yeah, and that was the reason for the FAQ/CoC language, which was why people went yelling "COMPELLED SPEECH!"

@bobble ack, ambiguous sentence. L Cooper's reasoning for why 3) is othering is why the FAQ/CoC was written as such. People reacting to the FAQ/CoC, as outlined in the message L Cooper replied to, is what led to the "compelled speech" stuff.

L Cooper

22:00

@bobble Yeah, I do think we're on the same page here! I got my responses a little out of sorts, but I was trying to add in support to your point as to why the CoC and/or FAQ would specify that #3 isn't acceptable, from the perspective of a member of the impacted community.

G. Moylan

@A.B. Why can't we wish someone else to have a merry christmas? How does that mean I have to agree with that notion in my personal life? "Hey, I don't celebrate christmas, but I hear you do, so I hope it's good!"

"Hey, I don't really know what I think about gender right now, but I hear you use xe/xer pronouns, so I'll refer to you that way!"

bobble

I always feel a little awkward in conversations like this. I'm genderqueer, but pass easily as female (matching the sex I was assigned at birth) and the people with whom I interact on a daily basis in "real life" (mostly family) do not know about my gender identification. Then I have friends who are also some flavor of trans, and who do get misgendered and have trouble etc. How much does my opinion "count"? This is also complicated by me not really having a fully-formed opinion.

A. B.

Yeah.

I suppose I'd better just... go.

I suppose the trouble is it seems hard to use the neopronouns without implying agreement with the position that "gender is a part of someone's personality and is a MASSIVE deal".

L Cooper

@A.B. Do you feel that way about cis people?

G. Moylan

@LCooper or just he/she/they pronouns. the specific callout here is neopronouns

A. B.

22:08

Cis people that take this view and take every opportunity to indicate it, yes.

Sorry to make so much fuss about this, it's just that this site is about my only human contact except for the CicadaSolvers Discord server which, well, you've all heard about, so I'd rather not leave unless I'm sure I need to.

bobble

You could say that gender is part of that person's identity, and it is a massive deal to them. That doesn't mean it has to be central to your identity.

L Cooper

@A.B. Okay, I'm no longer engaging with this. Your response to being told that you need to follow the Code of Conduct and respect trans people is to lay on a guilt trip about how you shouldn't speak at all, and that we're taking away your only human contact. That's not engaging in good faith, that's manipulation, and I've no interest in playing that particular game.

G. Moylan

@bobble This is what I've been (poorly) trying to point out

A. B.

Well, facts are facts.

Can't very well make up new ones for you.

@bobble In the face of constant very public statements elsewhere that that's just how it works for people in general, followed by cheering? Although thinking about it I'm confusing this site with SCPwiki, here. Also sorry if I was making you feel awkward.

bobble

As far as I know, what you're talking about did not occur here. But then I haven't been here for very long so I may just be ignorant.

A. B.

22:14

Fair.

If anyone likes to tell me what would be "engaging in good faith", then I'd be happy to hear it.

G. Moylan

@A.B. use the pronouns people ask you to use, full stop. It doesn't matter what our individual opinions about their validity, etc. are. If someone says in good faith "this is how you can show me basic respect," then do it. The end.

4

A. B.

And then sob for an hour?

Is it worth it?

L Cooper

@A.B. And then stop guilt-tripping people with how hard it is for you to use the right pronouns.

A. B.

Again, just stating facts. Other people may be upset by being misidentified, too, y'know.

NautArch

This isn't about misidentification. This is simply about addressing people how they'd like to be addressed.

L Cooper

22:18

@A.B. Your emotional response to being polite is your business.

A. B.

And implicitly agreeing that the most important thing about me is that I am either an adult male, an adult female, or an adult something else basically sex-related.

I don't even know what I mean any more.

G. Moylan

@A.B. if it is emotionally damaging for you to use certain pronouns for other people, you should talk to a professional. If you cannot separate the ideas of what someone wants you to say to them from your personal ideas about gender, that's some serious conflation and you should talk to a professional. I'm not really sure what else the answer here is, because it certainly isn't "sure, just misgender the hell out of anyone you see fit because that makes you feel valid"

A. B.

What sort of professional?

Sorry. I hear this A LOT and this just happened to be the time I cracked. Apologies.

L Cooper

@A.B. It sounds like you have a fundamental problem with the concept of pronouns in general, seeing as they're used for literally every person. Not even touching on the gross misunderstanding of what pronouns mean to trans people.

A. B.

BUT thank you very much for entertaining the idea that it is emotionally damaging. I feel better for that, whatever I end up calling anyone.

NautArch

22:22

@A.B. A mental health professional. These are things that are about dealing with other people, and those are the folks who can help.

A. B.

Well, I didn't have a problem with them until they started to be such a big deal. Like I say,

What kind of mental health professional?

They're as different as eggs and plumbers.

G. Moylan

a psychotherapist, probably

A. B.

OK, where did that phrase come from?

Psychotherapist means anybody.

G. Moylan

there are all kinds of therapists for all kinds of things. I'd do some google-fu

L Cooper

You're an adult, you have access to google.

NautArch

22:24

I am doing my absolute best to see this conversation in the light of acting in good faith, but I am honestly not sure that you are @A.B..

bobble

There are services which do therapy online and text-based, if that would be most comfortable for you

A. B.

May I just say, then - if you don't even know what kind you have in mind, what makes you so convinced that that would help?

Sorry. As I say, I have been bottling that remark up for a long time with a lot of different people.

@bobble Any details?

G. Moylan

@A.B. I'm not sure what answer you want from me. A mental health professional trained to deal with the kinds of issues you find yourself dealing with. I don't know what official title that might be. You'll have to do some searching.

NautArch

It is not acceptable to act this way in here. If you aren't interested in improving, then we will not be a place where you can just come in and vent and expect us to react.

A. B.

The answer I'd like from you is, how d'you know that that would help? But there you are.

bobble

22:27

@A.B. Talkspace was the one my parents put me in. (Granted, my experience wasn't the best, but that was mostly because I was forced into it)

NautArch

Because talking to people helps.

A. B.

Hasn't helped here!

L Cooper

If a lot of different people have told you to get help from a mental health professional, and you also keep finding that you're lonely and have nobody to talk to, I think it's probably worth considering that those things are connected.

G. Moylan

Becuase these people are trained to deal with this kind of stuff and we're a bunch of randos online with our own baggage

3

L Cooper

@G.Moylan They're also paid to deal with it, and therefore, the social contracts for how much is acceptable to dump on them are very different.

A. B.

22:28

With stuff, of some sort. (I have much wider experience of this than you have.)

G. Moylan

@LCooper indeed

A. B.

I can't pay.

G. Moylan

@A.B. there are many programs available in many places that could cover costs if there are any. I'd do some research based on your area.

A. B.

@bobble thanks a lot, been trying to find online things, but it's difficult.

Last try all I could find was an LGBTQ helpline - haven't had the nerve to contact it yet.

@G.Moylan I don't think that's how it works here. The free services are the free services, and I don't think there are any online ones and certainly no anonymous ones. I can have a look and see if there's anything I didn't know about, though, if you insist, it's been a while since I last looked since I'm in far too bad a state to cope with any such thing.

G. Moylan

@A.B. Sometimes it's a cost-covering program instead of the service itself being free. Again, it varies by where in the world you are. It's something you're going to have to continue researching yourself, or if there's someone you know personally in meatspace that you trust, they can help you, too. But we can't do it for you.

A. B.

22:53

That's what I mean, I'm not sure there are cost-covering programs here, because there is so much free stuff there's no need for them. But the free stuff tends to be a little inflexible. Still, I'll have a look if I can think where to look. Can't think of any search terms. Oh, local MIND or SANE might know something like that, I suppose.

I tend to forget about that kind of thing. Also, I'm not sure it's realistic to think that I'd be up to going through the assessment process for a cost-covering thing, but I'll look it up if it keeps you happy.

Looked up "age dysphoria". Three results, one of them creepy. On the bright side, if I ever did see anyone about this, the other two could be printed out as an explanation of what's on my mind with hardly a word altered. Does anyone here think that's a good idea?

Picking a thing to ask them about in advance, not even necessarily the most important thing, and bringing a pre-written explanation? Or are you just supposed to stick to what they think is important? It's so long since I've done this.

Also @G.Moylan thanks for giving me so many replies, it's not like it's your business.

NautArch

You are getting ahead of yourself - which is okay. First, find someone/somewhere that can help. Then it's all just about talking. Talking about yourself, your concerns, how you're feeling, etc. They'll ask questions that will help guide you.

A. B.

Even if they've never heard of this and therefore wouldn't think of it?

NautArch

Whatever it is, they will help.

A. B.

And if we did manage to get to this by accident relying on them bringing it up unasked, I'm sure and certain I couldn't explain it off the cuff a tenth as clearly as this.

Can I just express exasperation for one moment here - how do you know they will help? Are you speaking from any particular knowledge or experience here? (if you are, then that's another thing.)

Ahh. Better. Done now.

NautArch

@A.B. Yes, I am speaking from experience.

Both as a recipient of that help and a giver.

A. B.

23:01

Ah, well, that's another thing, then.

Been at the receiving end of a lot of people who turn out to be basing it on nothing but a faith in what they've heard about the magic powers of "therapy", but don't know CBT from psycho-analysis.

NautArch

Going in with an open mind that they are there to help and that you can be honest with them is the way to do this. I would heavily advise-against any self-diagnosis.

@A.B. A psycho-analyst is a specific type of therapist. I've gone to that as well.

A. B.

I know. I mean that some of the random strangers who've lectured me don't know.

That's not an open mind, that's a pre-judgement based, in the second case, on no evidence.

NautArch

Okay, but that's neither here nor there.

A. B.

My trouble is I tend to have rather obscure things. That's autism for you, I suppose.

I know that now.

Also it occurs to me that I'm blethering, I don't know why I even mentioned some of what I said. Sorry.

NautArch

It's fine, but part of participating in good faith is not moving the discussion somewhere that isn't relevant.

A. B.

23:07

But it was an accident.

Or does good faith on the internet not mean good faith?

NautArch

Okay, I'm bowing out. Adios.

A. B.

Basically, the trouble is that I don't stand a snowball's chance in a supernova of actually doing such a thing.

Like that, yeah.

Transcript for

Here There Be Dragons