TRPG General Chat

goodguy5

4:07 PM

@RevenantBacon seems bad. just use inspiration

Medix2

Huh, the new quoteblocks are still the old ones on mobile

AncientSwordRage

@goodguy5 is that another PF only concept?

Yuuki

@Carcer oh yay more things that key off CON

CollinB

@RandomDudeWithAKnife unfortunately

AncientSwordRage

@HotRPGQuestions interesting!

goodguy5

4:18 PM

@AncientSwordRage Inspiration is actually 5e, but many systems have Bennies

AncientSwordRage

@goodguy5 Are we talking about the savage world question or the PF thing? Becasue only one mention bennies, and I have never heard ofthe

goodguy5

@AncientSwordRage the PF thing. one sec.

kviiri

In a sense there's nothing particularly 5e about "roll twice [or more] and take the highest/lowest". I'd say the actually novel thing in DnD 5e inspiration is the fact that it's used almost consistently in lieu of the franchise's formerly abundant numeric modifiers.

I have my grudges about 5e but that kind of clarity is something I actually like.

goodguy5

I can't find it, but "Bennies" are an older RPG term than Savage Worlds.

Any expendable resource, that your character sheet has (rather than the character), that lets you add bonuses, rerolls, etc.

Savage Worlds just happens to call them "Bennies"

vicky_molokh- unsilence Monica

I wonder if some people called them bennies during the earliest days of RPGs, such as those of James Bond 007 (the earliest game I remember with such a currency, dating to before I was born - 1983).

NautArch

4:26 PM

@Akixkisu I'm not sure this question needs the targeting tag. It's not actually about targeting, although an answer uses it.

Akixkisu

@NautArch it is about targeting an open container.

kviiri

@goodguy5 Much to my confusion, Deadlands:Reloaded (which is based on Savage Worlds) calls its Bennies "fate chips". They're not Fate points...

They are tiered, though, so somewhat distinct from the plain SW concept

goodguy5

awesome (awesomely confusing)

NautArch

@Akixkisu I see it as is well this spell do X. Being a valid target is a possible answe,r but that's not the quesiton.

Akixkisu

@NautArch yes it is parap.: the biggest argument against it is targeting on open container, can I do this - and does it kill them?

NautArch

4:29 PM

@Akixkisu That's part of it, but not the whole thing. ANd that's their guess. BUt they are just asking if the spell will do this. But I honestly don't care that much, and if you really want it, it's probably fine. I'm just wary about adding tags.

Akixkisu

@NautArch Tags are a means of connecting experts with questions they will be able to answer by sorting questions into specific, well-defined categories.

Medix2

I once debated systematically retagging swathes of questions here, and debating what to do when more than 5 tags theoretically applied... I gave up because it would just flood the activity page

Akixkisu

exactly that is why you do the tagging when questions are already on the activity page.

Carcer

maybe the ability to edit (or at least edit tags) without bumping activity would be a good high-rep privilege

lets engaged users do housekeeping if they're so inclined without flooding out the active questions

Akixkisu

But if you think that this made the question worse, then feel free to rollback rpg.stackexchange.com/revisions/115360/2

Medix2

4:39 PM

I'm honestly contemplating whether trying to target a creature inside another creature's stomach counts as a "called shot"

Akixkisu

As in relevant to called shot rules/tag?

Someone_Evil

@Carcer Old MSE post on that

NautArch

@Medix2 For 5e?

Someone_Evil

And here's one with a response

Medix2

@Akixkisu Yeah whether the question on targeting a creature inside another creature (5e-dnd) should have locational-damage

kviiri

4:41 PM

So, dungeon designers (for a fairly straight-forward "go to a dangerous enclosed area full of hazards, mysteries and monsters" style), do you have particular tricks for balancing the delights of exploring between the feeling that players can get, that exploring every place is the "correct" or "best" way to play, or otherwise warding off the compulsion to explore every corner of a dungeon?

NautArch

@kviiri I think a lot of it depends on the players. If they like exploring every nook and cranny or if they're looking for X and optimize to that.

Medix2

Hmmm, people brought up a good point about edits that don't bump the question being abusable. It is the visibility of that edit that makes you want to make it genuine

Akixkisu

@Medix2 I considered that, and by general guidance used the broader relevant tag which is targeting, but there certainly is a case for that.

NautArch

I've felt in previous games as a player that my decision to 'move forward' made it so we didn't get loot. ANd that stunk.

Medix2

@Akixkisu You did use it XD

kviiri

4:43 PM

@NautArch There's the problem that... well, I've played for years and I still don't know whether I like it or not x)

NautArch

@kviiri Ha! I think it also depends on why you're going in that dungeon.

Akixkisu

@Medix2 ?

Medix2

@Akixkisu You say there is a case for it having the tag, but you already gave it that tag. At least to me "there is a case for X" implies you don't agree with X but can see why people do

NautArch

@kviiri If you're going in to kill Monster X, then exploring every nook and cranny for loot shouldn't be required.

Akixkisu

@Medix2 A case for the location damage tag, I used the targeting tag instead.

Medix2

4:45 PM

@Akixkisu Well the edit history says you used both...

kviiri

Should be added that while I find the concept of gradually sneaking through a hazard-ridden maze appealing (in fictional contexts) I've found that dungeons are generally too full of idle detail that only feels like it's meant to punish players who don't want to spend hours describing how they go through the pockets of each individual colorful coat in the wardrobe.

NautArch

Agreed

kviiri

(Okay, that's not the general case, but that's how I've often felt.)

Wow, I think that's actually a well-articulated "Do not want". I'm already progressing. Thanks @NautArch for rubber ducking with me x)

Akixkisu

@Medix2 where does it do that - could you point me to the revision?

NautArch

@kviiri TIL about rubber ducking.

Medix2

4:47 PM

@kviiri Yeah... the biggest problems I find with dungeons are so often the "I search the room" "you find nothing" "I search... again?" Without some sort of pressing time-table (which has its own problems) the mentality to always search everything, to "100%" the dungeon, is quite strong. Well, at least for my groups

@Akixkisu rpg.stackexchange.com/posts/165891/revisions In the edit to the question about targeting a creature inside another creature

Akixkisu

@Medix2 ah, we are talking about to different questions.

kviiri

@Medix2 I have limited, but promising experience about time tracking mechanisms. Should be noted my usual style of GM'ing is that I try to construct house rules to push gameplay in a direction so that sensible actions in-universe are mechanically stronger, and vice versa.

Akixkisu

@Medix2 yes, in that case I did, as more specific than in the other case.

NautArch

I really think you're taking a very broad view of targeting @Akixkisu.

kviiri

Eg. I let my players roll their search rolls and stuff like that openly, but searching is not a free action – either it costs time (and Bad Stuff happens when enough time is consumed). Without time tracking, I would consider making bad searches just incur other consequences, using the pattern that the failure doesn't have to be 100% something the character screws up.

Akixkisu

4:50 PM

@NautArch I think you might take a narrow view of targeting.

Medix2

@Akixkisu I think we better think of something

NautArch

Okay, i'm going to remove myself from this contentious conversation on tagging and recommend that we should probably move it to Meta.

When people ask you about why and your response is snark back, that's not helpful.

Akixkisu

I don't feel any need to start a meta, if you do, then go ahead.

kviiri

So okay, I want the exploratory aspects of dungeons to provide the place with a sense of liveliness that makes it feel like more than just the connected rooms of traps and kills they are. But I don't want to put in rewards of the type that would compel my players to search just for their sake. (There's also the point that DnD 4e is relatively finicky when it comes to "how much gear a lvl X character should have")

NautArch

@kviiri I think i'm of the mindset that if you are providing loot for your players, they should get that loot without too much fuss.

kviiri

4:54 PM

@NautArch DnD 4e generally works that way, so that's a good mindset for my campaign. I think there's some appeal in the alternatives, too.

But

That's what I'm gonna go with.

Akixkisu

@NautArch see to what the message that you consider snarky responds to, a message that I have received after explaining why I use the tag - one that might have a phrasing you may also consider snarky if you compare them.

NautArch

@kviiri I think what we often do is roll percentage for loot. Higher percentages net better loot. That way, there's still some chance, but you can skip the searching bit.

@Akixkisu let it go. I am.

Akixkisu

@NautArch move on.

NautArch

@kviiri Although we have also been told "oh, you missed all the good stuff!" Which is really frustrating when you as your character chose to move forward because it narratively made sense.

Yuuki

@NautArch oh god, why would you tell someone about things that were skipped

NautArch

4:57 PM

@Yuuki Well, this is the group with critical fumbles...

Yuuki

There's no upsides to hiding some treasure somewhere and then telling your players when they missed it.

ugh

goodguy5

You can hide it another place later!

Yuuki

The cynical part of me reads some ego-stroking motives into that kind of move. "Oh, look at how clever I am by keeping you from getting this thing!"

NautArch

@Yuuki and/or "look how silly/stupid you were for not checking X!"

kviiri

@NautArch A certain published adventure basically told us that and it's a part of why I'm musing about this :-)

NautArch

4:59 PM

It's partly why my characters recently don't have proficiency in perception, but in investigation.

@kviiri Punishing players for making good narrative choices seems counterintuitive.

Yuuki

If my players asked "is there a way we could've made the combat easier", yeah I would consider telling them.

But hiding loot just seems like a bad idea overall.

NautArch

@Yuuki oh, definitely! THat's a learning experience question.And usually it's because they rushed in instead of talking to folks/checking things out first.

kviiri

@NautArch Yeah, it was definitely a wrong foot moment for me and that campaign.

@Yuuki I usually do. But I tend to be quite up-front about major tactical themes, anyway, because I feel the players are in general very biased towards excessively conservative tactics.

(and it makes sense --- everyone mostly agrees what Fireball does, but try to find two GMs who would rule the "swinging on the chandelier" attack the same way...)

I am such a player myself. I often stick to Fireballs and Beacons of Faith and what-have-you, because it's secure. It does what it's done in all the encounters so far, and for the flashier stuff, it often... disappoints.

So I try to dramatically shake the encounters, by finding ways why "exactly the usual thing" won't work, or more often creating explicit alternative means or objectives to solve encounters.

NautArch

@kviiri I've got my new evocation wizard and I have yet to cast a fireball. Or even a shatter. EVery time I've had an opportunity, collateral physical damage has been an issue and I haven't been able to. Very disappointing.

RevenantBacon

@goodguy5 It's the one that tacks on a bunch of additional benefits to most other Combat Feats.

Medix2

5:14 PM

@Yuuki Meanwhile I'm in a campaign where finding everything in a dungeon nets you the secret bonus item

@NautArch I can't wait to have a GM actually have an explanation for perception vs investigation... Nearly every one I've had you could just construe what you were doing in such a way that it was whichever check you were better at

NautArch

@Medix2 We generally say Perception is for taking in a view, while investigation is looking for something specific.

Can I tell if Enemies are coming? Perception. Is there an enemy in that bush? Investigation.

Medix2

@NautArch Actively taking in a view sounds very similar to looking for something. Are you saying perception requires not moving?

NautArch

@Medix2 No, more that perception is for general awareness while investigation is for specifics.

Medix2

@NautArch Yeah that makes sense, well, except that both active and passive perception exist... I'm not really sure how to be actively aware of things. What I do know is that not a single pair of the GMs I've had have agreed on Perception/Investigation

NautArch

@Medix2 Again, it's not about active/passive. It's about what you're looking for. If it's for something specific or a very specific area, then we use investigation. If it's more general, then it's Perception.

Medix2

5:22 PM

Ok, I'll just stop trying to say what I was saying since I think we're just not understanding each other here

NautArch

@Medix2 heh, sorry :( I think the reason is there is such disconnect is that each person "knows it when they see it". We just all see it differently.

Medix2

@NautArch Yeah that's a great point. I'm realizing I'm also combining perception vs investigation with active vs passive skills (especially perception) and it's that I've never seen GMs agree on both mechanics

The Oracle

0

Q: When should we apply the targeting tag?

targeting Can be a very general tag, because basically nearly every spell/attack etc involves a target. Should we only be applying targeting when the querent specifically mentions targeting? Or is it applicable for whenever an answer can use it? Or when an answer does use it? Some examples of r...

NautArch

@Medix2 I also don't use passive all that much. If I want the players to notice something, I'll have them notice it.

Hot RPG Questions

7

Q: At what point is someone, who has attempted to hide, considered to be hidden, when resolving tied contests?

Inspired by discussion in the comments on this question. Successfully hiding is normally the result of a 'contest' sometimes known as an 'opposed check'. The person attempting to hide makes a Dexterity (Stealth) roll contested by the Wisdom (Perception) of the person who may or may not be able t...

dnd-5e skills stealth

KorvinStarmast

5:29 PM

@goodguy5 Pirates and Dragons calls them Dubloons

RevenantBacon

I lean more towards the description of perception being for noticing the fact that the room has some chains, and a desk, and a coffee table with a rug on the floor, while investigation is finding out that the desk has a secret compartment, and there's a trapdoor under the rug.

NautArch

@RevenantBacon That's more akin to my thoughts on general vs specific.

goodguy5

Some of those cases are a little bleedy into each other.

like, the floor being fairly dull, except for an arc against the south wall.

Should that be Perception?

NautArch

@goodguy5 Yes. And then the follow up of "I'd like to look more closely at that arc". NOw you're investigating.

goodguy5

yiss

KorvinStarmast

5:38 PM

@kviiri I find that the trick is to have some things that they are looking for somewhere in there (based on a rumor, legend, treasure map, an event that happened recently/previously) and for there to be things to find that they did not know were there. The other very old school thing that we may not see as much of any more is "we need to find the stairs/path to the third level down" kind of searching expedition.

That is a dungeon crawly thing that applies well to archeology type adventures, or where recency of "something happened" or a recent and important answer to a divination type of spell gives a clue as to how deep into the dangerous ruins in the lost forest one must delve ...

Medix2

When people ask about homebrew content, are the comments the place to ask for clarification about how X part of the Homebrew works?

Someone_Evil

Generally, yes at least if it is minor and before answers have come in

NautArch

@Medix2 and if you think there's a lot missing, then vote to close.

so answer don't come in before all specifics are in place

KorvinStarmast

@Yuuki I can't agree with you enough on that.

@goodguy5 The quantum treasure, or Schroedinger's Ring of Feather Fall ...

Yuuki

Perception is the act of implanting an idea into someone's consciousness while making them think that they came up with it.

JohnP

5:51 PM

Well, looks like little dude #1 will need a minor heart procedure. Has an atrial septal defect that hasn't closed.

goodguy5

@KorvinStarmast what's the name of that DM trick where the ogre is down whatever hallway the characters choose?

Yuuki

@goodguy5 Monty Hall?

goodguy5

Quantum Ogre

D:

Woah

JohnP

Looks like a decent candidate for a catheter type closure, but if that doesn't work they open the chest. :o

goodguy5

Good luck! Scary!

KorvinStarmast

5:54 PM

@Medix2 I heard a player offer this idea: Perception ~ "is there anyone/anything here?" and Investigation ~ "Where is that thing" or, "What is that thing?" Maybe oversimplified but I think heading in the right direction.

JohnP

@goodguy5 Yeah, I've got some medical background so I understand it all, but still. Whoof.

goodguy5

@JohnP which of you and your spouse are the worrier?

Medix2

@KorvinStarmast Yeah that sounds reasonable. Also... Weird, when chat messages are edited the ping happens again but when comments are edited there is only one ping

KorvinStarmast

@Medix2 I embrace the weirdness.

Yuuki

@KorvinStarmast No one bothers to ask "how is that thing?". :(

KorvinStarmast

5:55 PM

Speaking of good Dm advice, V2 suggested that last night I called for too many ability checks ... and looking back at the session, he is right. Must always improve ...

kviiri

@Yuuki Monty Hall is the probability trick where you face, perhaps counter-intuitively, improved odds of success in some initially identical choices when other choices are ruled out in certain way

JohnP

@goodguy5 Mmm...neither of us really, although she would say me. I fret a bit here and there.

goodguy5

@KorvinStarmast in which way? like things that fall under the George Costanza rule?

KorvinStarmast

@kviiri I thought that Monty Hall D&D was that behind Door number three there is a washer and dryer by Westinghouse! :-)

Yuuki

@kviiri Yeah but there's multiple hallways and every time you switch, the DM gets increasingly exasperated at you until they throw an ogre at your face.

goodguy5

5:57 PM

@JohnP oh good, then. You only have to manage yourself. If it were me, I'd have to worry about the scary procedure, but also concern myself with my wife's worry.

kviiri

Aug 16 '19 at 10:29, by kviiri

Meanwhile, in other news: You are in a contest. Before you is a series of doors. Behind one of the doors is the main prize --- a brand-new sports car. Behind each other door is a consolation price, that being a goat. Monty Hall administers the contest so that you get to pick any door, and Monty, regardless of your pick, open all doors except two: the one you picked in any case and the door concealing the car if you picked a goat door, a random goat door otherwise. You know this much.

KorvinStarmast

@goodguy5 I was as DM overthinking rather than just saying "yeah, you do that, press on"

JohnP

@KorvinStarmast Monty Haul in D&D is an overly generous DM. Monty Hall problem is a classic gaming problem in probability.

goodguy5

@KorvinStarmast Oh yea. that was a hard habit to break. (and probably still do it)

JohnP

@goodguy5 Yeah, and medical I tend to worry much less because I understand a lot of it. I don't do as well with stuff I don't understand.

KorvinStarmast

5:58 PM

@JohnP I know that I was making a (bad) joke. :)

Yuuki

Mounty Hall is if every door has a horse behind it.

kviiri

(read the transcript after that for the punchline)

JohnP

On the bright side, he's reading at a 3rd/4th grade level and hasn't started kindergarten yet. He amazed the doctor by reading the parts of the heart from the wall chart.

kviiri

Nov 26 '19 at 17:30, by kviiri

One of my favorite pastimes at the university was reverse nerd-tripping math freshmen who quizzed people about the Monty Hall with poor problem specification :-)

KorvinStarmast

@JohnP that's neat

Yuuki

6:10 PM

VR Jenga

KorvinStarmast

3d12

Dice Service

10

5

6

Yuuki

6:44 PM

KorvinStarmast

@Yuuki "Pretty sure it screams at us sometimes" (Guessing "Sun Spots" or something like that?)

RevenantBacon

@KorvinStarmast Maybe they mean the constant stream of radio waves it sends at us?

Yuuki

That and if it wasn't for the vacuum of space, the sound of constant nuclear fusion reactions would be deafening, I imagine.

That's actually kinda interesting though because you compare how people behave in cosmic horror stories versus how we treat the sun.

Rubiksmoose

7:09 PM

@Yuuki 🤔

KorvinStarmast

7:25 PM

Question for the panel: I just awarded 100 rep bounty on the AL questions. (Nits originally asked it three years ago) As it's now a commnity wiki, I wonder who gets the rep?

RedRiderX

I believe no one gets it.

Someone_Evil

@KorvinStarmast The original owner gets bounties on wiki answers

RedRiderX

> Bounties are not affected by community wiki mode. When you award a bounty to an answer marked community wiki, the reputation bonus will be awarded to the user who posted the original revision of the answer.

Yep I was wrong meta.stackexchange.com/a/16067/171716

KorvinStarmast

@Someone_Evil that was my guess, but I was not sure, but I also forgot to go and look it up. Naughty Korvin! No Soup For You!

JohnP

8:10 PM

KorvinStarmast

8:26 PM

@JohnP heh, I am not allowed to look at that image until later. :-)

V2Blast

10:42 PM

@Medix2 Mobile app, or mobile web interface? I think the former hasn't been updated in ages (possibly even discontinued)?

Medix2

@V2Blast Yeah I'm trying to figure out how to distinguish all the "methods"...

I have no clue what the mobile application looks like. But the actual site just pulled up in a browser on my phone still has the old quoteblocks. As does clicking the "mobile" button WAY at the bottom on a desktop

V2Blast

Ah, interesting. I assume both of those are the mobile web interface (the latter button forcing the mobile view rather than the desktop one).

Medix2

11:14 PM

So... this question lists a whole bunch of things that don't work, and why they don't work. Is that, well, allowed/recommended?

Adeptus

wow, you people in other timezones are chatty

Medix2

FWIW, chat is probably heightened at this time due to COVID-19, more people at home or at least with more free time

Adeptus

11:58 PM

@kviiri You're confusing inspiration with advantage/disadvantage (though inspiration grants advantage, so...)

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