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7:05 PM
@DavidCoffron Do I want to know what you were planning to do with cat dinosaurs? Or what cat dinosaurs is for that matter...
@Someone_Evil Trying to apply Feline Agility to a Wild Shape
@DavidCoffron if only you had which what now?
@goodguy5 If I could apply Feline Agility to a Wild Shape, I could be fast enough to deal 690 average damage and then get one attack on top of that
@goodguy5 cat dinosaurs
ah gotcha
7:13 PM
glad i could help
There are not many ways to get fast with only one character and no magic items
(especially when you need your concentration for smthn else)
I was just mulling over something silly....
Level 9 conjure animals to get 32 giant wolf spiders.
or better yet, yaks
summon them all 20 feet away, then have them all stampede by.
+5 to hi, 3d6+3 damage, and might knock prone.
I have no idea how to run the numbers on that.
7:29 PM
@goodguy5 +5 to hit nerfs them quite a bit
Basically only a 50% chance to hit (with advantage), let me see...
@goodguy5 Where you getting yak stats?
Or more importantly, what's the DC for prone?
They were in Storm Kings Thunder, if nothing else.
@goodguy5 I'm getting nothing, but I can work with 13
The Elk is close enough
yea, exactly the same stats as an elk
@goodguy5 Grant total of 153.6 expected damage. Even after the last beast, its only a 13.5% chance that its prone.
Just so hard to hit and have the target fail the save
that's much lower than I expected
7:42 PM
Yeah. If flanking rules though...
(since they always have advantage)
Cast hold person first lol
bah, concentration
@goodguy5 That would also guarantee crits... hmm...
Oh yeah
If you could paralyze without concentration then you get 391.68
Maybe wish for glyph of warding for hold person?
Then its only level 8 conjure animals though
that's half as many!
@goodguy5 You looking for yakfolk? Or the crag cat?
just the yaks
7:46 PM
I like where you're going though. My first instinct was summon something too
bah, I don't think there's anything useful here.
if only I could then dip all of their horns in poison....
@goodguy5 Haha
Might be a more useful creature at higher CR? If you can get the attack bonus up the damage potential sky-rockets
@DavidCoffron I got an expected outcome of 146.4, exactly.
@Xirema Hm. Not sure where we differed
I did end up with a much higher chance for the target to be left prone though: 97.127%.
7:59 PM
@Xirema Hmph. Here is my analysis
Wait. Retracting my stats. Made a big mistake.
Oh my. Mine is a big mistake too
@goodguy5 Question - Max damage, does the PC necessarily have to live through it?
(I accidentally typo'd and the advantage from the target being knocked prone was never factored in)
I multiplied chance to hit and crit for yielding prone instead of adding
8:02 PM
Q: Does downing a character at the start of its turn require an immediate Death Saving Throw?

Alex MilletteSay a Player Character (PC) with low HP is in a Cloudkill: When a creature enters the spell's area for the first time on a turn or starts its turn there, that creature must make a Constitution saving throw. The creature takes 5d8 poison damage on a failed save, or half as much damage on a suc...

I'm getting 222.242 now.
Still the same odds of being knocked prone, at 97.127%; kind of suspicious about that number now.
Whelp, I'm doing something wrong. I'm getting 320% chance to be prone
Um..... yeah, that's.... not right.
@DavidCoffron So.... lying on a 50-degree incline?
8:07 PM
How do I math!?
Umm... I thought I could jut add the chance they were already prone by the chance the previous elk knocked him prone
Chances of being prone after one attack is the odds that 1d20+5 is less than 13. So about 35%.
Correction, 18-degree incline.
@Xirema Yeah. I got it. I have to multiply the chance of previous elk knocking prone by the chance he wasn't already prone when that previous elk attacked.
So it's chance to already be prone + chance to knock prone given he wasn't already
I get 97.1% chance after the 32nd elk
8:11 PM
Yup, that's what I've got.
Actually... 97.1269999
7 mins ago, by Xirema
Still the same odds of being knocked prone, at 97.127%; kind of suspicious about that number now.
Two different methods, same numbers. That means it's probably maybe right?
I would think so.
@DavidCoffron Well, the only method with visual proof is in disagreement.
8:16 PM
@Yuuki Uh....
While I approve of the sketch, I don't think prone-ness is a scalar
if this hasn't been stacked it needs to be so we can sell it in the cheese shop
@G.Moylan If what hasn't? Making a bunch of elk's hit things?
@DavidCoffron indeed!
Elk cheese is a delicacy in certain circles
@G.Moylan It's attached to @goodguy5's post about damage maximization, although I think it's pretty clear this current iteration is non-competitive with the current solutions.
@G.Moylan I mean, it was a hypothesis for how to beat this question
@Xirema Yeah, elks just don't have a high enough chance to hit; I'll look at some more powerful options when I get home today
8:21 PM
A Stench Kow (VGM 208) is a strict upgrade to the stats of an Elk/Yak.
+1 to hit, and +1 damage on hit.
Oh wait, it doesn't have a chance to knock prone.
Could still use Flanking rules though.
300.72 with flankink
462 with paralysis
the ruling on MM with Empowered Evocation directly contradicts how JC said missiles work for Concentration checks. Why am I not surprised...
@G.Moylan Hm? No, they are separate damage instances, but one damage roll. No contradiction fmpov
@DavidCoffron oh perhaps I misread, one sec
@G.Moylan I did! Interesting. How does that affect our expected damage output for MM? Is it a net gain to roll once and apply to each missile or to to want to roll for individual missiles?
in other words: was JC's ruling a nerf?
I suppose I could stack that
@DavidCoffron I also get 300.72 with flanking, exactly.
8:30 PM
@G.Moylan It's a buff. Empowered evocation only works on one damage roll in a spell
@DavidCoffron What about it doesn't make sense? If you have a 100% chance to be prone, that means you're guaranteed to go from upright to flat-on-your-face, which is a change of 90-degrees on average. (/s)
@DavidCoffron without that. Just straight MM
@Yuuki facedesk
@G.Moylan I mean, the problem with making one person the arbiter of all rules everywhere is that you assume that one person will make rules consistently.
@G.Moylan Same expected, but more swingy
@Yuuki he has a bad habit of contradicting the actual rules or his previous rulings. See Shieldmaster and Dragon's Breath. BUT, he essentailly acknowledged that with the global retcon at the beginning of this year
@G.Moylan and I think going forward they're trying to be more mindful
8:34 PM
@Yuuki Not sure when I can join you in monsterhunter, but I've definitely figured it out :)
8:56 PM
@G.Moylan Recently I applied to join a roll20 group that literally pointed to this site for rulings on certain things. I was like, oh... I wrote that answer!
@DavidCoffron hehehe did you tell them?
@G.Moylan No xD. It was buried in the "rulings" section of their campaign guide.
Not even sure if all the players read it. Also, I evidently didn't get the gig as its been a couple weeks since the LFG post
@DavidCoffron :(
@G.Moylan It's w/e my new Saturday group is awesome, so worth it in the end.
@DavidCoffron good to hear!
Random question, are there any MTG level 2 judges in this room?
8:59 PM
@G.Moylan Ha. I am a baby-judge (I've studied the rules and know more than the average MtG player); what's the question?
(I have no idea what the levels mean though; never looked into judging tbh)
@DavidCoffron well I intend to take the level 1 tests soon and I jsut wanted to talk to a level 2 about it. Like what they found most useful when they were level 1, etc
@G.Moylan Maybe try the chat room for this stack?
@DavidCoffron didn't know that was a thing. Thanks!
Me either until I had a question about Settlers of Catan that had been asked here before XD
@DavidCoffron quiz time! what happens when player 1 attacks with a Grizzly Bears, and before blockers casts Giant Growth, targeting their bear. The spell resolves. Still before blocks, Player 2 casts Ovinize, targeting the grizzly bear. What does the bear look like before damage is assigned?
9:03 PM
@G.Moylan I so want to make a yo mama joke here...
@JohnP lol I've got a series of jokes about cows that eventually lead into a "your mom!' gets 'em every time
@G.Moylan I'm gonna guess 3/4, because of layers?
Which is pretty buff for a sheep (based on the art of Ovinize)
@G.Moylan Ovinize takes priority in the stack, right? Or did they errata the stack?
@G.Moylan looking on gatherer wizards website, text on the Card is slightly different to the quoted "Card text" ...
@BlackSpike yes the text to the side is the official rules text. Printed text may have been updated by rules changes. It's called "oracle text" and takes precedent for all printed versions
@MikeQ GG has resolved, the stack is empty except ovinize
9:08 PM
@G.Moylan Got ya. In which case 3/4.
@G.Moylan Aren't you asking for the state of the bear after that spell has resolved?
@Someone_Evil yes
(Giant Sheep-Bear! It's a bit like an owl-bear ... but more ... sheepish?)
@G.Moylan eh bad phrasing. Ovinize resolves, what happens
@G.Moylan Ah okay. GG lasts until end of turn, and the target creature is still itself, so yeah, it keeps the +3/+3. Total of 3/4.
9:10 PM
Both effects operate until end of turn, so they're considered Continuous effects. These operate in a ruleset called "layers" which organizes how effects like this happen.
so @Someone_Evil is correct as to the why
I haven't played MtG for ... 20 years? Was never a huge player, but some friends were ... placed in reasoable sized UK tounaments
Hey, Spiel des Jahres winners announced!
@Someone_Evil It is also explained here
@MikeQ lol yes it is. It's a common example to use since the effects are fairly straightforward. That article does have some gnarly example questions, though
Layers are about the most complicated section of the rules. If you can deal with Layers you can handle the rest.
Silliest deck I recall was Cycle of Life/Quirrion (?) Ranger green uber-mana, turn Bird of Paradise into 20/20 , or some such monstrosity
9:16 PM
I tend to play either Enduring Ideal or Doomsday in most formats I play. or just MUD.
Tap, return to hand, untap, tap, play, untap, return to hand, play, tap, untap, rinse repeat
I always had a fondness for Black/Green. But as I say, I was never an expert
@BlackSpike Kiki-Jiki and Restoration Angel want a word.
@BlackSpike I have no idea what you just said here...
@G.Moylan Are they some johnny-come-lately, new-fangled cards? (20 years!)
@G.Moylan Dang it! I missed the opportunity to correctly answer a layers question because of my drive home from work
9:20 PM
@JohnP tbh, neither have I! it was a nightmare to watch my mate play the deck, try to keep track of what they were actually doing! :D
Kiki-Jiki: https://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=438702
Restoration Angel: https://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=438594
@BlackSpike look up Second Sunrise from about 5 years ago and try to follow someone playing that. or High Tide
@BlackSpike I don't know as I've ever actually even seen a Magic deck.
@JohnP You lucky, lucky person!
@G.Moylan Second Sunrise? Is that the inspiration for Approach of the Second Sun (one of my favorite combo decks in recent years)
Q: Do you have to hide in order for other creatures to not know your location inside a fog cloud?

Pablo Chávez RomeroYesterday we had a bit of a conflict about how going and attacking someone inside a Fog Cloud. Does a creature need to use the hide action to avoid enemies knowing his location inside the fog cloud? In this case, if a creature doesn't hide can know where they are for the purposes of a melee or a...

9:22 PM
@DavidCoffron if that's another name for eggs or KCI eggs then yes
Got so many (2nd hand) horror stories about MtG ... how it saves you money (!), how people lost their card collections, broken friendships, etc
Huh. 5 more answer votes and I repcap on here for the day. Cool.
@DavidCoffron I liked the deck (both major iterations) but they were terrible for the organized play environment. the 1st because it took forever to play and matches frequently went WAY over time. The 2nd because it relied on an obtuse timing about certain mana abilities that virtually no player understood going in.
@Ash The number of community copies has gone up since I last checked, despite seeing several on Twitter saying they took one for themself.
So Working As Intended, I think?
@G.Moylan I don't think so. Approach of the Second Sun was a standard deck a couple years ago
9:26 PM
@DavidCoffron oh wait... I'm recalling that now
@G.Moylan It was kind of a UW control deck with a special W/C
@DavidCoffron oh THAT. yes
@DavidCoffron yeah you played the namesake card twice
I mean it was up against temur Aetherworks Marvel and Zombies so it was never the most successful, but I liked it
@DavidCoffron combo decks often suffer that fate but they're still great fun
@G.Moylan At least there are some competitive combos in modern (if not the most interactive decks). Hi Titanshift, Storm, and Unlife
9:30 PM
Any simple-to-play black/green these days?
@BlackSpike What format? Or just casual?
something something Dredge
@DavidCoffron casual. (or some kind of tournament, just out of interest :) ) not that I'll ever play
@G.Moylan it's stupid OP right now because of a dumb card named Hogak
@BlackSpike There's a BG tempo deck in modern
Dark Confidant, Scavenging Ooze, and Tarmagoyf
You can find it under Golgari Midrange or sometimes called "The Rock"
Goyf, and Confidant are pricey tho
9:35 PM
Is Hypnotic Spectre still in?
@BlackSpike it's Modern-legal, yes
Modern is anything printed in 8th edition forward with a ban list
named for when they transitioned to what at the time was the "modern" card border
There's an 8th edition?!? :lol:
9:37 PM
they just released M20, which is about 20th ish core set
they're up to the 70s in expansion count now
I haven't played mill in a while
I wonder how it shapes up in the current meta
mill is never that great but it's almost always fun (for the person playing mill)
Stasis/turbo-Stasis? I'm sure the actual cards have been replaced, but "Untap? I think not! hahahahaah!" is that a thing?
you can build literally anything. Whether it's competitive or not will vary greatly. Consult the almighty mtgtop8.com for current metas in a variety of formats
but all that really matters is if you're having fun
10:04 PM
Our next game (as soon as I've brought current one to satisfying conclusion) is heavily-house-ruled Rolemaster. First thought was Ranger, but I may do "outdoorsman" as Monk. "Wandering Hermit" type
10:20 PM
Q: Should we Rename the [adnd] tag to [adnd-1e]?

XiremaRelevant recent Meta: Appropriate response to questioning which version of D&D I'm asking about The user for that meta is describing a difficulty they're facing on this site where use of the adnd tag is netting wrongful comments and close votes to the effect of "please specify which system you'r...

11:08 PM
@BlackSpike The trend in card design in recent years has been toward letting people play their decks, though I can't vouch for the tournament meta.
@MarkWells That sounds like a good way to go.
11:43 PM
Q: What kind of anatomy does a centaur have?

KGlasierMy friend showed me a D&D meme about centaurs (see below). This got me wondering if centaurs also having two sets of lungs, two livers, two hearts (like a Time Lord?), and so on, or if centaurs just have a more efficient humanlike arrangement of organs, or if they've another arrangement entirely....

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