TRPG General Chat

Ben

4:00 AM

@Rubiksmoose Hahaha

Rubiksmoose

@trogdor So how easy is the "full" game to run prep-wise? (I suspect low-prep?)

trogdor

@Rubiksmoose I haven't run the specific scenario on the demo, but the one I did run was very low prep

Rubiksmoose

@trogdor have you found the "1-2 hour" descriptor to be accurate?

trogdor

I read the scenario enough to be familiar with what I'm supposed to do and also read it the first game

Rubiksmoose

That would be incredibly impressive with my group.

trogdor

4:02 AM

@Rubiksmoose 1-2 what?

Ah yes it generally took the time it said

BESW

Especially if you use the pre-mades, which I've always done.

trogdor

But I ran the Kitsune one, not the demo one

Rubiksmoose

@trogdor What, you expect me to type out all of the important words? Golly.

trogdor

I think it should still hold up though

V2Blast

...looks like we won't have all our players tonight so we won't be able to play :(

Rubiksmoose

4:03 AM

@V2Blast No! :(

trogdor

@Rubiksmoose how rude of me XD

Shalvenay

hey there @B.S.Morganstein, welcome to the RPG.SE lair :)

B. S. Morganstein

hey there, its been a while

Rubiksmoose

Well I'm officially sold.

user15026

I really liked it, especially because I have like no rog experience but I could still have fun and participate

Rubiksmoose

4:05 AM

oh man, that price is way more than reasonable. I'm sure I could even sneak that into the budget if I wanted the full book.

trogdor

@BESW @Rubiksmoose and yeah I recommend using the premade characters in your first game and one of the premade scenarios, I've only used one scenario but it's really good and I expect the others are good too

Rubiksmoose

@Ash nice!

trogdor

@Rubiksmoose there are also other books but you don't need them at all

Rubiksmoose

It might be fun to run this after I run my Paranoia game, which I expect to turn into a traitor-filled murder-fest.

trogdor

And really I think you can run at least one game with the demo

But if you want the main book it's more than enough

I've got a bunch of them but I'm obsessed with GSS right now so XD

@Rubiksmoose lol, nice change of pace

Shalvenay

4:09 AM

@Ash rog experience?

Rubiksmoose

Though I will have to wait my turn as other people have stuff they want to run. I think this will be a good one to run during the days when not everyone can make it.

@trogdor what's the tone like would you say, in general? Heartwarming and fun, but not goofy?

trogdor

@Shalvenay I think it's RPG

@Rubiksmoose oh it can be goofy too

Rubiksmoose

excellent :)

Goofy and zany are kind of where I live humor-wise.

trogdor

If your group wants to get goofy that is not at all antithetical to the game

I expect if your group is goofy your going to end up with a lot of dogs and raccoon dogs

Rubiksmoose

Can it slide a bit the other direction as well into more straight?

trogdor

4:12 AM

@Rubiksmoose straight humor?

Ben

@Rubiksmoose How do you get a rhino into the fridge?

Rubiksmoose

More like less humor "playing it straight" (words are escaping me right now)

@Ben I don't know, how?

trogdor

Hmm

I think so

If I understand at all what you mean

Ben

Open the door, put it in, close the door. Fairly straighforward

How do you get a giraffe in the fridge?

Rubiksmoose

@trogdor (if you don't that is entirely understandable since I am doing an awful job of communicating it)

@Ben Idk, how?

@Ben XD

Ben

4:15 AM

Open the door, take the rhino out, put the giraffe in, close the door

trogdor

Like, part of the game is cheering people up if someone is upset, there's a scenario where a kid is verbally bullied (the game highly discourages violence even for bullies)

But it's played straight as it were

Rubiksmoose

@Ben naturally!

trogdor

He's really having trouble with it and needs help

Ben

If the lion king had a meeting, and all the animals were invited, who wouldn't be there?

trogdor

It's not a game that hides from seriousness

Rubiksmoose

4:16 AM

ah ok that is exactly what I meant. You deserve a medal for getting there just from what I told you lol

trogdor

But it also isn't made for extremely dark topics

Rubiksmoose

@Ben Who?

Ben

The giraffe. No one let him out of the fridge

Rubiksmoose

@trogdor That seems appropriate.

Shalvenay

@trogdor yeah -- the thing that I do wonder about it is what the scope of "everyday problems" are

Rubiksmoose

4:17 AM

@Ben hahaha

trogdor

Like those bullies I mentioned, the game explicitly says they won't physically hit him

BESW

Put it this way: Last week's game, I played a dog who tried to get damp leaves to play fetch with him. I also got very sad when a cat explained to me that sometimes rain is sad, like tears.

trogdor

Because that's not the kind of problem or solution the game goes in for

Ben

There's a crocodile infested river. There are no visible ways to cross without entering the water. How do you cross without getting eaten?

Rubiksmoose

@BESW That is incredible. All of it.

@Ben feed them the giraffe?

Shalvenay

4:18 AM

for instance, coming across the crew of the morning train being in a total fret because they can't get one of the turnouts for the station spur to lock up

linksassin

@Ben You swim. The crocodiles are at the meeting.

Ben

@linksassin Precisely haha

Rubiksmoose

haha

BESW

@Shalvenay I think that's within the scope, but would have to be handled carefully to avoid child endangerment because that's not within scope.

Ben

Ok, I'm done. Sorry for confusing the chat there

linksassin

4:19 AM

Classic australian primary school humour

Ben

@linksassin It is a good "think outside the box" and "memory" game

Shalvenay

@BESW yeah, adult endangerment of that sort's probably not in scope either, though!

trogdor

@BESW @Shalvenay yeah what BESW said, also that's not typically what a henge could be expected to help with but that doesn't mean you can't have them be older henge who know mechanical stuff

linksassin

Has anyone here had experience playing/running Call of Cthulhu? One of my players had issues running the starter set and I haven't played it so I don't know how to help.

trogdor

The only issue I see with it is that you would need to make sure all of your players and characters could actually help with that problem

Ben

4:21 AM

@linksassin @BESW

trogdor

Because that problem isn't typical of the game

BESW

I haven't played CoC, but I've read it.

What kind of issues?

trogdor

Because henge aren't expected to all know human tech stuff

It doesn't mean they can't but it's unusual enough that it would be Weird if all your players henge did know how to fix that problem

linksassin

@BESW She's a first time DM (has run one session of pathfinder) and was trying to run the starter set modules for 1-2 players.

She said they felt very railroad-y

MikeQ

@linksassin I've participated as a player, not sure if it was the starter set

linksassin

4:23 AM

And that there was tonnes of prep work to do compared to pathfinder.

MikeQ

Well, character creation doesn't have as many options as 3.x/PF, but it does entail more steps. Not as much research and comparing, but it does involve some math and bookkeeping, because players are expected to start by making an itemized sheet of how they spend their dollars on inventory

linksassin

Basically she encountered a couple of issues where players missed clues and then basically lost the entire module because it has no backup plan.

BESW

@trogdor Yeah, if the problem is "we can't find the guy who can solve the problem!" that's something the henge can do!

trogdor

@BESW yeah true

linksassin

The math and bookkeeping side wasn't an issue. It was the story side for a new DM.

BESW

4:25 AM

@linksassin This sounds... pretty accurate, yeah. There's literally an entire game engine (Gumshoe) designed in response to that problem with Call of Cthulhu.

trogdor

And then maybe that person has something they need done beforehand or is having a bad day

Rubiksmoose

Well it has been lovely chatting with you all. But I've got to go to bed before I end up buying another RPG or roped into another interesting conversation :)

linksassin

@Rubiksmoose That's what we're here for! Goodnight

trogdor

@Rubiksmoose goodnight

XD

Rubiksmoose

Night!

Ben

4:27 AM

@Rubiksmoose good afternoon!

Rubiksmoose

@Ben :P

linksassin

@BESW So is it pretty typical of the system? She was excited about running the mystery type storyline and liked the insanity and certain doom aspects of it.

But playing didn't quite live up to expectation.

BESW

If she's excited about the mystery element of Cthulhian horror, I strongly recommend she check out Trail of Cthulhu, the Gumshoe response to Call's failure as a mystery game. Until then, your friend can use GM fiat to fix the "missing clues" problem the same way Gumshoe did: if you have the right skill and use it in the right scene, you ALWAYS find the barest minimum clue necessary to move forward.

trogdor

Lol you definitely asked the right person

linksassin

@BESW Awesome thanks I'll suggest that to her. I did recommend that she could have moved the clues around behind the scenes to keep the game going but new DM and all.

BESW

4:29 AM

There's also Cthulhu Dark, which is for one-shots that emphasize the hopelessness and mind-blowing terror elements but don't really do structured mystery.

trogdor

I did really like Cuthulu Dark

BESW

And Lovecraftesque is a good but weird GMless game that uses shared narrative responsibilities to build a mystery NOBODY knows the solution to until you reach the end.

trogdor

But she would need to craft a scenario in herself right?

MikeQ

@linksassin Ah okay. From what I remember, there wasn't much up front about any horror or mystery, although I think that's partly due to the DM's poor communication skills

trogdor

@BESW this was also fun though

MikeQ

4:31 AM

We rolled insanity maybe once or twice, and nothing interesting happened that I recall

BESW

For Cthulhu Dark? There are a few pre-made adventures, and solid advice for making your own (I suggest using any Doctor Who story that follows the "base under siege" formula as inspiration).

Shalvenay

@BESW Lovecraftesque sounds like a lot of fun once you strip the eldritch horror bits away, actually

trogdor

@BESW ah ok

I didn't know that there was stuff for it

BESW

Personally I'm learning toward horror that can ignore the Mythos entirely and look for similar thrills without the racist misogynist's paranoid fragility mucking everything up. Cthulhu Dark and Lovecraftesque both have that potential, but both still lean into the mental health stereotypes common to Lovecraft-inspired material.

Fate of Cthulhu (Kickstarter just finished) kicked out the sanist bits but kept the racist allegories largely intact.

linksassin

Thanks for the tips, I'll pass them on.

The only other thing I thought was learning the system and running a session myself to see if I could spot some ways she could make it work.

BESW

4:36 AM

Yeah, Call of Cthulhu is very prominent because it's the Lovecraftian horror system that's been around the longest.

But mechanically it's really not super great for horror. Or mysteries.

Shalvenay

(I mean, the whole collab-mystery-plot-with-no-predetermined-answer thing sounds awesome, it's just that "the racist misogynist's paranoid fragility mucking everything up" sounds especially true for Lovecraftesque given the potential it sounds like that engine has)

BESW

It uses a very generic game engine, BRP (Basic Role-Playing), which tries to be neutral and fails because it thinks that's possible.

user15026

@BESW I am still kinda proud of working that explanation out

BESW

@Shalvenay Lovecraftesque works REALLY hard to avoid the mucky bits, first by having you completely ignore the established mythos and make up your own stuff as you go, and second by having some decent essays about HOW to make up stuff as you go without falling into the tropeholes.

@Ash Oh, it was perfect.

Shalvenay

@BESW nice :) it sounds like a system to look into even

user15026

4:38 AM

It helped that @trogdor was super good at cueing me so I could make patterns. I like when I can figure out the social stories.

user15026

@Ben that string of jokes is one of my all time favourite silly things.

Ben

XD

trogdor

@Ash I did what now?

BESW

Personally I've come to the conclusion that we need to just strangle the "horror = Lovecraft" synecdoche by refusing it entirely, before any element of his legacy can be conscientiously rehabilitated, if any indeed merit that treatment at all. And to deprive that synecdoche of oxygen, we need to flood the market with games and stories which scratch the same itch but use none of the Lovecraft brand at all.

3

V2Blast

QQ

@BESW agreed

BESW

4:44 AM

Lovecraftesque is emblematic of the problem, I think: it wants to say "We can do that kind of horror without Lovecraft," but it has no language to say that without using his brand anyway.

It can't present itself as an option except in opposition.

Cthulhu Dark does it, except for that h*cking title.

Without the title, CD would be perfectly presented as a game for folklore horror, ghosthunting, etc.

Ben

So, over in the Corruption System room we seem to have hit a bit of a wall. We're attempting to balance out the 1st Tier Passive abilities. If anyone has any ideas or input, please let us know :)

user15026

@trogdor you helped with leading me towards where the story was going and what would help

user15026

@BESW yes please

trogdor

@Ash ah ok yeah that's kinda what my job was, as GM XD

user15026

Yes but it was a thing I noticed and appreciated, too many of my DnD stuff was spent wandering not knowing how to progress

Ben

4:57 AM

Oh, sidenote: @Miniman @linksassin I went with the Fighter lvl 1, to go into Sorcerer at lvl 2.

trogdor

@Ash :( that's not cool

Ben

@Ash That can be a good thing... depending on how it is portrayed.

trogdor

@Ben well giving a lot of freedom is good but not giving any guidance when things have just hit a snag is not

Ben

For example, we had one situation where the DM spent too much time explaining irrelevant information, so we got lost trying to figure out where to go next, as every time we tried to go somewhere/do something, it was "wrong" cos there was something that had not previously been explained, blocking the way

V2Blast

@Ben was it boxed text in a published adventure

Ben

5:05 AM

On the other hand, you can have puzzles that are just all about making a decision that appears outside of the box/not obvious. We had one puzzle where there were two rooms. One was "good" the other was "evil. We had nowhere else to go, and no way forward from here. Spent about 45 minutes investigating the place, until I blurted out "what about just picking a direction? As soon as we did, a staircase opened up

Or a plinth in the middle of a room, with a button. You press the button; the door slams shut; the plinth starts rotating slowly, and ticking loudly, eventually getting faster. Each time you press the button, it resets

The idea is to simply let it run out, to open the next staricase

linksassin

@Ben Sounds like @MikeQ 's invisible dragon problem striking again.

Ben

@linksassin Yes. Very much

linksassin

Jan 10 at 3:11, by MikeQ

Case: The undescribed dragon problem
- PCs enter a room, and GM describes some aspects of the room
- PCs walk forward and get eaten by unmentioned dragon
- The dragon wasn't invisible, but the GM says it's the players' fault for not checking for dragons

MikeQ

Sorta. Also I'd advise against COC not just because of the Lovecraft connotation (it tries really hard to be superficially like a HPL story) but because the system mechanics don't really do horror. They focus too much on things that don't matter (e.g. character wealth) and too little on things that should matter (e.g. fear, denial, shock, etc)

linksassin

@Ben Have used that one to great effect. I had a wizard tower the players needed to climb. Every second floor was exactly that plinth with a button scenario. However the exact function of the button and timer changed each time

Ben

5:11 AM

So if anything, both situations revolve around omission. One is accidental, the other is on purpose

Miniman

@linksassin There's a bizarre trend of boxed text that describes every detail of the room except for the creatures occupying it...which is the thing that the players care most about. The number of times I've seen a giant paragraph of random architectural detail be followed up with "oh and there's a bunch of goblins" (or any other creature) is just staggering.

Ben

@linksassin "the door is closed" is a nice little trap to distract some players sometimes :P

linksassin

@Ben Yeah it's not bad. Worked on the Doctor (two of him) afterall

@Miniman True, I don't run modules often so I didn't realise how common it was.

Miniman

@linksassin I would say the majority of boxed texts I've seen suffer from this problem.

Ben

R🐘

linksassin

5:15 AM

@Ben Level 1 - As desribed; Level 2 - Leave the room before the timer runs out or fireball goes off; Level 3 - Door isn't locked, pushing the button instantly triggers the fireball; Level 4 - Button activates the Golem guardian you have until the timer runs out to defeat it.

Miniman

The exceptions tend to be where the creatures are themselves a setpiece - "a bunch of mephits dancing manically in a circle" is the sort of thing that gets included where "8 random cultist dudes" get left out.

linksassin

@Miniman That's annoying. Why wouldn't you put more effort it describing the important bits?

Miniman

@linksassin I think the boxed texts are the equivalent of when a fantasy author spends two pages describing the food at a feast (for example).

They're not about information, they're meant to increase immersion by painting a picture. And give writers a chance to show off.

This is all wild speculation on my part, though.

Ben

5:31 AM

> Wild Speculation: At any time that you speculate, the DM can ask you to roll a Speculation die. If you roll a 1, you roll on the Speculation table (d100) to see what theories to support your argument.

Miniman

Although you made me curious, so I went and read some articles - apparently boxed text originated as a consistency measure for competitive play.

Which makes a lot of sense, but makes it even more confusing that it's still widely used.

linksassin

@Miniman I'm impressed at your research.

I summise it still exists because people are lazy and it being there means they don't have to think up interesting descriptions for things.

Miniman

5:47 AM

@linksassin Eh, I literally just googled "D&D boxed text" and read what came up.

Ben

Proficient in Google-Fu

Miniman

@linksassin I wonder about that, because it's the writers who are making that choice, not the DMs. (And certainly not the players.)

linksassin

@Miniman Presumably things with boxed text sell better than those without?

V2Blast

An article by James Introcaso: We Can Do Better Than Boxed Text

linksassin

Or the writers are more concerned with the story they want to tell than actually making it good to play.

Miniman

5:54 AM

@linksassin I suppose? I dunno, it just seems like it's pretty controversial. Plus, it doesn't seem like they've tried not using it. Could just be historical inertia.

linksassin

@Miniman There are definitely some modules without it. But those I have seen are poor quality. Not that I've seen that many.

Miniman

@linksassin I'm curious, examples? Third party, or WotC? 5e, or earlier editions?

linksassin

@Miniman Nothing that I can remember. 3.5 homebrew modules mostly. It was a long time ago before I started my current campaign and I was hunting around for inspiration.

The ones I found that didn't have boxed text tended to lack the important details entirely.

Miniman

Hmmm, interesting.

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