TRPG General Chat

Shalvenay

12:15 AM

hey there @bytepusher, welcome to hte RPG.SE lair :)

bytepusher

hey

I was not aware SE had chat :)

GreySage

Why does everyone on that Mage Hand question assume a 1 action spell takes a full 6 seconds to cast?

Xirema

@GreySage I don't think the cast time is an issue, but I think the "use your action to control the hand" part might be: unless you have the Arcane Trickster feature, you'd be unable to use the hand (say, to "grab the torch") the same turn you cast it. Unless your DM is permissive and allows the newly created hand to occupy the exact same space and grip of the previous one.

GreySage

@Xirema Indeed, but everyone is making the cast time the limiting factor, when it really isn't.

Ender Look

1:35 AM

Quick question. If you use an scroll (D&D5e), do you spend an spell slot?

Joshua

Heck no

BESW

That's the point of scrolls.

Ender Look

Thanks

And... without taking into account XGtE, is possible to make magic scrolls (I mean, by default, PH or DMG)?

Joshua

Scream in horror if you're the DM and your player invokes time travel when you're not set up for it.

Ender Look

time travel???

Joshua

1:40 AM

One of two internally consistent rulings for wall of force in a hard cacuum allows. The other allows instant plane destruction.

Vacuum

Ender Look

?

BESW

Volunteer Agents Crusading Unsteadily Under M.O.N.G.O.O.S.E.

Ender Look

that is even weirder

BESW

Is it better or worse that I didn't make it up?

trogdor

@BESW acroseption

BESW

1:46 AM

@trogdor No, that's be Skin Horse's U.N.I.T.Y.

trogdor

lol

BESW

UNITY was a government project that broke their backronym AI when they instructed it to come up with the acronym for the word they'd chosen. We later learn that UNITY herself came up with her own backronym, "spoiler".

trogdor

it was a bad idea to let her do that

but I love it

BESW

Nobody ever "lets" UNITY do anything.

trogdor

that's fair

BESW

1:50 AM

Well, except Doctor Lee, because she has waffles.

Joshua

lol guys. BTW my connection is so bad

Miniman

@EnderLook DMG has rules for crafting magic items. They are terrible.

Ender Look

Ok

Miniman

Of course, the ones in XGtE are also terrible, so pick your poison.

Ender Look

ohhh

Xirema

2:13 AM

@Miniman Ehh, the XGE rules for crafting items are okay. Maybe a little too easy for players, but definitely an improvement over the DMG rules, which drag out the game too much.

Miniman

2:27 AM

@Xirema They both suffer from the same fundamental problem - neither time nor gold are resources the game gives players any reason to care about.

Ender Look

Can I ask about a balancing question? My brother and I are designing an Elementalist class in our free time, and one of its ability let him craft magic gems, which works similar to magic scrolls. I would like to know if it's possible to make any kind of loophole with it, or if we are making it fine. I'll attach a photo.

@Miniman Time isn't a reason? Humans age very quickly, and a survey discovered that the majority of players choose human. So, you can't spend much time.

nitsua60

@Miniman my feeling on both is not enough ~game~, too much accounting. I'm happy with plenty of bookkeeping, as long as it's in service of a game, not a chore.

Xirema

2:42 AM

@Miniman That's fair: when I think "craft a magic item", I usually think "go on a quest to retrieve a rare ore/crystal needed to craft it"

And like, there's nothing STOPPING a DM from just doing that.

But some direction on what a fair and balanced way to go about doing that would be good.

nitsua60

@EnderLook I would definitely have a limit on the number/longevity of them somehow. As-is your level 10+ elementalist can just bank their highest unused slot at the end of any day for any day in the future. A week on the road? Great! Lemme bank seven 4th-level spells!

@Xirema The CR tie-in is a nice touch--I like things that base off of tiers of play, because that's a thing that does pop up in enough places to be useful but (IMO) not in enough places to really stick in people's heads.

Ender Look

@nitsua60 Ohh, you have right! I'll add WIS modifier number of gems. Thanks!

nitsua60

@EnderLook wait a minute, they've got a warlock's slot system? So how does one ever cast a lower slot into a gem? Can warlocks downcast?

Ender Look

@nitsua60 ... yeah?

The idea is that you infuse your spell slot to the gem, but the gem has a spell level limit according to its price. Any higher level is downcasted or unpowered in order to fit inside the gem.

nitsua60

@EnderLook I mean, it'd cost 7kgp to do so, but by 10th level that's not a crazy amount to have on hand. Then again, at 10th level my last AL character only had 20kgp on hand, so maybe it's not crazy.

It'd depend a lot on whether the GM's following "usual" guidance on how much treasure they're giving out and, unfortunately, this would be just about the only place that actually matters =\

@EnderLook Interesting. Is that a thing warlocks can do? I don't know that I've ever come across it, but I'm not sure I would. Upcasting has no downside anywhere in the game, right? (Aside from the expenditure of the higher-level slot.)

Ender Look

2:48 AM

@nitsua60 But that means that your character should spend more than a third of its fortune to store a level 5th spell in a gem. Would you do that?

nitsua60

@EnderLook Right. That's why I'm saying this character would actually find those prices gameable. (Like, they're the right prices to make these decisions interesting.) But I worry about almost nothing else in the game caring about how much money the party has, which (I believe) incentivizes most GMs not to care too much about how much (or little) gold they throw in the party's path.

Ender Look

@nitsua60 No idea, but my gems can, so you could store spells levels proportional to your wealth (if you are rich, you can store 5th level, if you can't, maybe you could afford a 2nd or 3rd level).

nitsua60

@EnderLook I see. That works for me.

So maybe the WIS limit isn't necessary, but maybe it's a good bit of belt-and-braces protection?

Compare this ability with a ring of spell storing--does it seem on-par?

Ender Look

@nitsua60 Maybe it could be a protection, you never know how a player might exploit a feature.

@nitsua60 Ok, I'll check that

nitsua60

If you really wanted to limit them, maybe they require attunement to keep in control?

Ender Look

2:56 AM

Ring of Spell Storing store 5th level magic in any composition, rare, DMG cost 501-5000 gp, XGtE cost 2,000 gp.
My gem store up to a 5th level spell. They are crafteable, so they should cost around 250gp to 2500gp (DMG), or 1,000 gp (XGeT)... that sound very cheap, isn't it?

Ah, Sane Magic prices says it should cost Ring of Spell Storing 24,000gp...

Ah, you also can use my gems to summon elementals, (due its elemental channeling). Elemental gems are uncommon (100-500gp DMG, or 200gp XGeT [100gp due consumable]), and summons a CR 5 creature. Now my gem has a problem, they are very good storing spells and very bad storing elementals (5,000gp for a CR 2.5) :(

Shalvenay

3:13 AM

hey there @nitsua60

Miniman

3:31 AM

@nitsua60 Yeah, which is why crafting rules in general are a bad idea.

Joshua

I would spend plenty to store spells in a gem.

Ender Look

does that means do you like it or you would like to exploit it?

Joshua

lol. A few copies of fabricate and mending in case somebody breaks my space helmet.

Ender Look

Just in case, magic gems are magic... mending won't fix them once they are casted

Joshua

magic gems are magic. My space helmet is glass molded by fabricate.

Ender Look

3:39 AM

Not sure what do you mean with space helmet

Joshua

One crack -> I'm not casting from my spell slots until I fix it.

Ender Look

Ahh, do you mean that helmet which is decorated with magic gems, now I understand

V2Blast

how's everyone doing tonight?

Ender Look

Fine, just about to go to bed (12:43). I think it is already a good moment to say bye: Bye!

V2Blast

Good night!

Shalvenay

3:54 AM

@V2Blast alright here, was hoping to catch up to nits but missed him

V2Blast

he's too fast for any of us, we can never catch up to him

he's actually the Flash

Shalvenay

4:31 AM

hey there @Bloodcinder

Bloodcinder

Hi. Is there any way to get a sort of apology message to a person I inadvertently offended with one of my comments when the offended user has deleted the post making it impossible for me to leave a follow-up comment?

Shalvenay

not really, unless they're in chat or smth like that I suppose?

Bloodcinder

Well, that's disconcerting. Thank you.

The Oracle

5:31 AM

0

Q: What to do about possible retaliatory down-voting spree?

I left an admittedly rude comment on an answer earlier today (requires privilege to see deleted post). I chose quite poor wording and offended the answer poster. While drafting an apology comment, the poster then deleted their answer (at 4:20 UTC). Since SE isn't like a forum and I didn't really ...

V2Blast

:/

V2Blast

7:38 AM

S2E3 of the actual-play podcast I'm a player in is up on YouTube now:

Planeslip Season 2 Episode 3 All Aboard!

►

V2Blast

9:54 AM

Also here on Soundcloud in audio-only format: soundcloud.com/user-966685176/season-2-episode-3-all-aboard

doppelgreener

10:58 AM

@Bloodcinder In situations like that I might reach out by leaving a comment on something else they've posted, if possible.

Zachiel

1:12 PM

One player is unsatisfied that A) another character is too strong and that B) said character is a crafter, creating items at 50% cost but having other characters spend 60% (rather than the 100% they would need without him), which is probably going to worsen point A.
This player reacted by passive-aggressively buying all of his equipment at 100% (boycott is not going well, as the rest of the part is still funding the crafter), which I guess makes the power disparity even worse? I would ask "how do I solve it" in the main site, but what am I trying to solve, here, precisely?

BESW

1:23 PM

@MikeQ Just played a game of Triassic. It's... flawed. The Panic mechanics have flappy bits that don't tie back into the system neatly, and the resolution mechanic is unnecessarily frustrating.

We had a great discussion about game design afterward, using it as a focus.

We had fun, but more in spite of the system than because of it, as we brought techniques and philosophies from other systems like Fate and Lady Blackbird to bear on the gaps.

Probably would've had more fun just playing the same narrative in Roll For Shoes. We also talked about hacking Cthulhu Dark for a similar premise.

BESW

1:36 PM

There's a LOT of failing, and the ESCAPE skill isn't designed to kill humans so dinos which prioritize that one are at the GM's mercy because "kill a human" is undefined mechanically but narratively it's only obvious how to do it with the DINOSAUR skill.

Failing isn't fun, and can easily spiral out of control unless the GM is very familiar with fail-forward philosophies the game text doesn't even imply.

And the story the mechanics push isn't Jurassic Park. It's maybe Fallen Kingdom? The amount of failure and loss of control means the dinos aren't on an unstoppable rampage, they're just flailing about trying to get some control over their environment. The scary thing about Jurassic Park dinos is that they are in control as soon as the humans slip up even the slightest amount.

nitsua60

2:09 PM

@Shalvenay hiya

@Miniman I dunno... I hold out hope for something good. Because at it's best I feel like D&D has been good at both the table-game and the solitaire game. And crafting seems like a place we should be able to make the solitaire game more accessible to players than it traditionally is.

nitsua60

2:34 PM

I mean, I encourage players to make villages or caverns or kingdoms or NPC families that I'll use (when playing homebrew). But none of that's intended to improve/advance their character per se.

Shalvenay

3:22 PM

@nitsua60 hey there -- got some time to talk?

hey as well @user466253, welcome to the RPG.SE lair :)

nitsua60

3:53 PM

@Shalvenay Afternoon's better--going to go sneak in a run before lunch.

Shalvenay

@nitsua60 okiedokie

nitsua60

@Zachiel Two players not getting along. Or, at least, one player unhappy with the other. (It's not clear that the crafter is doing anything out of animus, given they're charging everyone 60%.)

Zachiel

@nitsua60 Well he sure's doing things out of Animus, since he gains two points of Animus every round XP

More seriously, it's a mix of "I'm evil, I'm not kind", "I'm seriously underequipped" and "I have spent a feat on it, I should get something for it".

Zachiel

4:22 PM

The other player said "I don't care if that's what his character should do, I have spent a whole character class on healing the party and I'm not asking compensations for it"

It doesn't help that they have like a ton of potions and wands to cure themselves, and that the crafter has a form of regeneration.

doppelgreener

7:32 PM

So, Escape from Triassic Park, building on that conversation BESW shared from our group:

The Panic mechanic just needs to go away. It does nothing for the game, and it's not even clear what should happen when it makes you freak out.

The system needs fail-forward mechanics built in OR, more preferably, a resolution mechanic that has you always succeed but only roll to see how well you did, like Cthulhu Dark.

The skill duality is bad. I went in thinking Escape would be the most useful skill, because, you know, Escape is the goal. But Dino solves almost all problems and keeps your Panic low. And Escape is helpful when you can outsmart humans, but it's difficult to find ways a Dinosaur could reasonably actually outsmart humans: operating a doorknob was the peak display of intelligence in Jurassic Park!

I would rename Escape to Cleverness or something like that, and have it justify actually doing uncharacteristically clever things dinosaurs usually couldn't do.

If we went with Cthulhu Dark's paradigm, we could have a resolution mechanic like this:
- your roll consists of these dice: 1d6 if it's something a dinosaur could normally do, 1d6 if it's something within your dinosaur's speciality, and 1d6 if you're willing to risk Panic to do it. (if it's not something dinosaurs can normally do, you're always only risking Panic to do it.)
- you roll either Clever or Brute, and you succeed if any of your dice are equal to or below your number.
- I use Panic only by name; the mechanism of the same name in the game should still go.

Panic as-is is broken: Dinosaurs which prioritise Escape cannot meaningfully lower Panic in Triassic Park's design. If they try to lower it, that probably requires Dino, and a Dino roll will almost certainly fail, therefore any attempt to lower it is almost certainly more likely to just increase it further. Their only choice is to wait, flip out, have bad things happen, potentially survive, and let it reset to 3.

That's bad, especially considering this WILL happen multiple times in a game because they WILL fail a lot.

It takes exceptional narrative positioning PLUS the GM's whim for a dinosaur to actually kill a human with Escape.

So whatever form Panic takes, it cannot take that shape. If it relies on the dinosaur killing humans, both skills ought to be equally viable for doing that, and the game rules should specify there's ALWAYS humans nearby.

It felt like they were mimicking Honey Heist, where bears can do flashbacks to lower BEAR from dangerous levels and increase CRIMINAL, or eat honey to lower CRIMINAL and increase BEAR, but importantly Honey Heist narratively positions you so that you can NEARLY ALWAYS do a flashback and you can NEARLY ALWAYS eat honey (you're surrounded by it).

doppelgreener

7:58 PM

So, taking it from the top, redesigning it...
- The narrative should explicitly start with the humans already having screwed up so that the dinosaurs are now in control. We could have a first act that finds out how they screw up, but we should really just skip to the part where the dinosaurs finally have agency. (Maybe have a random table to indicate what shape the dinosaurs find the park in: the failure could be earthquake for example.)
- The dinosaurs are canonically virtually bulletproof or hard to hit.

nitsua60

9:43 PM

@EnderLook just as a heads-up, I edited out the part of your comment that said "btw you have to earn 300 XP," since that's a significant part of any answer.

Ender Look

@nitsua60 What?? You edited my comment?? Can you actually do that??

Shalvenay

hey there @nitsua60

nitsua60

I can. (Elected moderator power.) Look upon my works, ye mighty, and tremble!

=)

@EnderLook There are also a couple of little learned-English errors in the post: things like number agreement, cases of adjectives. Mind if I give it a once-over?

Ender Look

@nitsua60 As you wish

nitsua60

(Oh, my sweet Westley!)

@EnderLook There's a line where I'm not quite sure what you're trying to get at: "I'm not exactly sure where it's written than on those two books mentioned above, but in page 260...."

Are you pointing out that how to get any XP isn't mentioned in the PHB/Basic Rules?

(Just what to do when you get them?)

@Shalvenay hiya

Shalvenay

9:50 PM

@nitsua60 now a better time for us to talk?

nitsua60

@Shalvenay For a little bit--we're heading to dinner within the half-hour. But if my wife calls I'll have to drop you.

Shalvenay

@nitsua60 ok

(Discord OK for you btw?)

Ender Look

@nitsua60 I know it's mentioned somewhere how do you earn XP, but I couldn't find where in those books :( That is why "I'm not exactly sure where it's written"

MikeQ

@BESW @doppelgreener Fair, it's not the most robust system, and I didn't expect it to hold up to the more notable systems. So far I only know one person who GMed the dino game, and her players were fairly inexperienced with TTRPGs in general. Apparently they ended up adding a lot of their own rules to make it playable.

For example, the doc doesn't give the player characters any means of communicating, so the GM said the dinosaurs could communicate via dinosaur sounds, just like in [cartoon dinosaur movie of your choice]

I also think she tried to minimize rolls, considering the stats are a binomial distribution with low probability of success. Otherwise the panic value would skyrocket very quickly.

nitsua60

@EnderLook gotcha--look good?

BESW

10:07 PM

@doppelgreener I think a significant failure of the original game is that it completely misunderstands the role of the dinosaurs in the original stories.

"Escape" may be the dinos' diegetic goal, but in six films they achieved it on a large scale... once. In the sixth film.

Making it a game about the dinosaurs escaping makes it a game with fundamentally different themes and tropes.

Ender Look

10:19 PM

@nitsua60 Great

doppelgreener

@BESW that's true

BESW

So, if we're going to re-tool the game, we have to decide if we want to keep that change, or figure out what kind of satisfying story can be told in the original Jurassic Park context.

Individual dinosaurs don't really get stories--and never happy ones.

(The best we get is Blue, whose story is bitter-sweet.)

doppelgreener

@MikeQ it is a pretty minimal system, but systems can be minimal and robust: lasers & feelings notably has mechanics that fulfil on its expected narrative fairly well. (the GM will need to bring in ideas from elsewhere such as other systems to fully make the game tick, but i'm not considering that as a point against robustness since this is usually true.) OTOH, triassic park sets forth a narrative but provides mechanics that can't live up to it.

trogdor

10:37 PM

@BESW except T-rex, he gets to be king of the island

BESW

Thematically, the films have always been "These creatures should not have been resurrected but they are here now in a world unfit for them." They're unable to stay in the intended "park spectacle" niche they were created for, but the life they want is impossible. The island is too small and cramped, and if they go to the mainland they'll get actively hunted to extinction.

Triassic gives the dinos the goal of "escape your captors and the park where you will be free to eat, claim territory, and mate to your heart's content."

If that's an achievable goal, it's actively opposed to the only consistent theme of the films.

The Oracle

11:22 PM

0

Q: Should I delete an answer that becomes irrelevant after the question is edited?

For example, this answer (which I've deleted) to this question, but this isn't the only case. The question originally asked about Create Bonfire, not Fog Cloud - however, the details of the Create Bonfire spell gave a much simpler solution to the more theoretical rules question the asker had in ...

discussion specific-question answers editing deleted-answers

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