TRPG General Chat

8:00 PM

Then I am confused about the situation and why it would be considered sad

@KorvinStarmast I think it was during the playtest for 5e they showed why they do certain things with respect to historical polling

Zachiel

@MikeQ The situation is: the DM did the right thing, decouple level ups from encounters (also see the conversation I replied to), until it sadly turned out that he didn't decouple all of character progression from the encounters, so I felt tricked.

Mike Q

@Zachiel So there was an optional encounter where the reward included an ability score increase and a feat? That's... not how character progression works

KorvinStarmast

Is the article still at WoTC site? I'll go take a look ...

Zachiel

@MikeQ actually we had to score some points while in the building, but the effect was the same as you describe.

@MikeQ (by the way, it was an official Pathfinder adventure, not something my DM invented)

Mike Q

8:07 PM

@Zachiel Oh I figured. I'm well aware of how static the pathfinder published adventures are.

Yuuki

So... is poison damage just another element (5e)?

Mike Q

@Yuuki It's a type of damage, so... yes?

GreySage

@Yuuki Yes, like Cold or Fire

Mike Q

Then again, bludgeoning and piercing aren't "element"s, so maybe also no

Zachiel

@MikeQ Well I have nothing against static adventures and a little railroading

Delioth

8:09 PM

But it is a damage type, and "elements" are usually a squishy/undefined term anyways

Zachiel

at least it looks like there's some time constraints, like increasing number of enemies the more it takes to clean the place.

KorvinStarmast

@DavidCoffron My Search Fu on WoTC site stinks. Any idea of that article got archived?

Zachiel

@MikeQ be aware that D&D elements are (previous edition knowledge) fire, acid, lightning sonic/thunder and cold. Poison, negative/necrotic, positive/radiant, etc. are not elemental damage

Mike Q

@Zachiel Right, yeah, as per Resist Energy's choices. Good catch.

BESW

I assume that static adventures deal electricity damage.

Mike Q

8:13 PM

@Zachiel Railroading in moderation is fine (and often necessary). Static worlds are... okay, but sometimes problematic. I also dislike distributing XP and prefer group advancement. The way I do it, I have the party advance a level as a way of measuring campaign progress, or as a reward for a plot arc.

Zachiel

@MikeQ we are doing group advancement.

Mike Q

In a static world, it sometimes feels cheap (if the level up comes too early) or unfair (if it comes too late)

For example, in one published adventure, our group leveled up, approached the dungeon, then teleported to the end and looted the treasure. Then we level up again, because reaching the end counted as "completing" the dungeon.

David Coffron

@KorvinStarmast I found this one but it's not what I thought it was: dnd.wizards.com/articles/features/dd-survey-results-summary

Zachiel

@MikeQ the only cheap thing was the moment where we were imbued with divine strenght and had to fight some enemies while we couldn't be dropped into negatives, and the DM just told us that we weren't going to play that out since it was already decided that we had to win.

Mike Q

In another example, there was a very convoluted dungeon that took us around a year in real time to complete. The book says you don't level up until the end. To us players, the dungeon was an absolute slog

Zachiel

8:17 PM

a year!

Mike Q

@Zachiel Turns out, we traversed the dungeon in the "wrong" order (relative to how the designers intended it, I guess), and missed the hallway/encounter where the book said to level up. So we were going through incredibly difficult battles (in the other halls) with no reward at the end of them. Not fun.

Zachiel

When I DM'ed my first adventure I had the same problem. It was an adventure intended for D&D 1e that I was converting to 3e. According to the encounter ratings, the PCs were supposed to get to the end at level 8. Had I given them XP as the book rules, I gues they could have reached 17 by that point. One of the players never stopped complaining.

Delioth

@Zachiel Oof. That's either terrible writing or the DM missed something (you might be imbued with divine strength and be unable to physically lose the fight... but there may be consequences if e.g. you don't do it fast enough (hostages die, ritual completes, etc))

HellSaint

@DavidCoffron point taken and agreed

David Coffron

@KorvinStarmast this is the article I remember seeing and it's not historical or WoTC (but it is dndbeyond): fivethirtyeight.com/features/is-your-dd-character-rare

Zachiel

8:20 PM

@Delioth No, the designer just intended it to be an epic fight with some deus ex machina safety measures... but the DM telling us what the safety measures were sorta ruined it all.

Delioth

@Zachiel Hell, as a GM I wouldn't want to run the fight either. It'd feel shitty as a player to fight tooth and nail, and right when you get hit by a crit (GM doesn't use a screen), GM then says: "And you don't go down, because of the divine might!"

Colin Gross

@Zachiel I have had a few of those. Epic battles where there is a death mechanic that doesn't involve the player dying... and a tpk mechanic where the battle gets won anyway, but they don't get the cool ending. Telling the players ahead of time definitely ruins it.

Mike Q

@Delioth This is why the GM should use a screen, so they can fudge rolls when needed and not kill the player characters all the time

Delioth

It feels bad to be told the safety features... but it also feels bad to have the safety feature activate anyways. Either way feels like a cop-out

KorvinStarmast

@DavidCoffron From 2017, not usable on that question, but interesting for the current play...

David Coffron

8:23 PM

@MikeQ but what if I want to kill the characters...?

Colin Gross

@DavidCoffron Want to? or just don't care if the decisions they make get them killed?

David Coffron

@ColinGross depends in which group you ask me about. Some of my player's are dying to.... well... die

Delioth

@MikeQ I'll have you know I've only killed one character, and they kinda did it themself (unprepared in a known aquatic part, got smashed by a big beastie after intentionally provoking it)

Colin Gross

@DavidCoffron ha!

Mike Q

@Delioth This is why the GM should use a screen, so they can fudge rolls when needed and not kill the player characters via random chance all the time

Colin Gross

8:25 PM

@Delioth That character needed to die. Missing the cues that the combat was going to be aquatic and then poking an aqua bear should have consequences.

Delioth

@MikeQ If you're down to the point where random chance is the sole factor killing players, you failed long before you would have fudged rolls

Colin Gross

@MikeQ Sometimes the RNG just doesn't go their way.

Mike Q

@Delioth How so?

GreySage

@ColinGross aqua bear?

Colin Gross

@Delioth True, but doing statistical modeling is tedious for most people.

@GreySage One of the lesser known, but very dangerous varieties.

Zachiel

8:26 PM

@ColinGross Amen

Mike Q

@ColinGross It works both ways. I've run screen-less one shots where I consistently rolled under a 10 on the enemy attacks, and so the PCs never got hit. Bad dice shouldn't result in boring gameplay.

David Coffron

@ColinGross I'm a bigger fan of aqua buffalo

Colin Gross

@Zachiel I'm not one of those people. I know how many kobolds it requires to kill my players 50% and 95% of the time.

Delioth

@MikeQ Either the players failed to play well and tactically (at which point you shouldn't fudge), or you set the difficulty too high (at which point you're really just covering for your own mistakes, and should be more transparent with your players rather than deciding fate and fudging the roll)

David Coffron

@MikeQ I knew a guy who used to use psuedorandom (so that when the enemies hit or miss they get a slight bias towards or against the rest if the attacks in that encounter).

Colin Gross

8:29 PM

@DavidCoffron That seems like a forced distribution. Probably easier just use a flat average

Mike Q

@DavidCoffron That's actually kind of cool. I might consider implementing something like that.

Colin Gross

@DavidCoffron Like a stacking bonus for misses? +1 per miss up to X?

Delioth

Also, character death isn't a bad thing. Yeah, it shouldn't be something that's a goal... but interesting stories come with character death. In any case, I'm more fond of Fate's handle on characters losing encounters (and maybe sometime I'll implement something along those lines in my Pathfinder campaigns)

David Coffron

@ColinGross and penalty for hits. He used an algorithm (online play) so it was a bit more complex

OneCritWonder

I have had pizza and have now returned.

doppelgreener

8:32 PM

@HellSaint Context: the meta you're referencing was written in a time when people would coyly evade providing any detail about what their system was at all. "How can I fix this issue with my player's wizard dominating play? Tagged this system agnostic because I'm sure this can happen in any system and that my system has nothing to do with it." -- a very common sort of thing to read on this site in 2012.

Delioth

@ColinGross Eh, +1 per shot would be too much in most systems. Something more like a 0.2 per hit/miss bias would be better

David Coffron

@OneCritWonder I want pizza

Mike Q

@Delioth I agree that decisions and strategy should, in an ideal world, have a greater impact on gameplay than random chance. But sometimes the dice consistently roll one way or the other.

doppelgreener

Turns out system has lots to do with it, because if you're playing D&D that's kind of normal and requires adjusting adventures, if you're playing Mage the Awakening or Fate there's something else going on entirely. (But it was almost always D&D, but someone assuming everything game's the same as D&D.)

@HellSaint I don't believe system-agnostic has any relevance as a tag nowadays.

Yuuki

@doppelgreener Until someone releases a religious RPG titled System.

David Coffron

8:35 PM

@doppelgreener what if I make an RPG that goes viral and is called "system agnostic"

doppelgreener

@Yuuki .... we'll probably have a lot to figure out when there's a system called System.

David Coffron

@Yuuki you beat me to the joke. Argh

Yuuki

@DavidCoffron I take offense to that assertion. I practice nonviolence in all my comedic ventures.

Delioth

@MikeQ And if a character is consistently doing well or doing poorly (or a monster or set of monsters is doing well or doing poorly), that's either a hardware problem (get new dice) or it might have an interesting story consequence. Trying to shoehorn random chance into what I believe is more random or more interesting isn't my job as a GM. My job is to narrate the world, using the system to provide a framework for the story and the dice to introduce random success/failure

David Coffron

@Yuuki pacifist comics disgust me.

Rubiksmoose

8:38 PM

@Delioth I generally use dice to throw at my players when they make bad puns.

Yuuki

@DavidCoffron That's racism against Asians.

Delioth

If that world happens to have a majestic chimera having a bad hair day or a goblin who stumbled through a party of hardened adventurers, that's okay [of note, i play with a considerably laid-back and slightly silly group, so some outrageous consequences are a goal, to an extent]

David Coffron

@Rubiksmoose make a ranged weapon attack

Rubiksmoose

@DavidCoffron See I only use d4s. That way even if I miss, I'll still get someone by stepping on it.

Zachiel

@doppelgreener what was that question about Dogs in the Vineyard (or was it Anima Prime?) that got several answers trying to solve the problem in a D&D context?

David Coffron

8:42 PM

@Rubiksmoose I'm immune to piercing damage

doppelgreener

@Zachiel i don't know which on account of there are a lot by that description

Delioth

If you use the exploding dice rule you only have to hit touch

Rubiksmoose

@DavidCoffron hah! we'll see. Legos bypass that resistance though so I'll just use those instead.

doppelgreener

"i've never played that game but here's what I'd do in D&D" describes most deleted answers among all non-D&D questions (then there's also some that appeared to not notice the game wasn't about D&D at all)

ACuriousMind

@MikeQ I wouldn't give up randomness. Extremely good or bad rolls of the dice have led to some of my favourite moments

Zachiel

8:44 PM

@doppelgreener That one was more "This is how you solve it" - where maybe it could have worked with any traditional game

Rubiksmoose

@doppelgreener Well if it wasn't about D&D it clearly should not have been posted here, on DnD.SE. :P

ACuriousMind

But I guess not everyone is as happy as rolling with swingy dice as my groups generally are

Mike Q

@ACuriousMind No, I'm not advocating giving up randomness. Having some randomness is crucial to the game - you're right, that the unpredictability can result in very exciting moments. But if the randomness gets in the way of having fun, then I feel that the GM has right to "activate manual mode" and start fudging some of the results

Zachiel

The answeres did not even recognize the fact that a system that different could have existed

Rubiksmoose

@ACuriousMind I prefer swinging with rolly dice personally.

Maximillian

8:45 PM

Sometimes dice take you to interesting places. Sometimes they just make you miserable.

Zachiel

@MikeQ What Maximiian said

Maximillian

Once in a blue moon, dice perform exceptionally well but at the wrong moment.

Delioth

@MikeQ The issue I have with this is that GM's still aren't mind readers (can't guarantee that it's not fun), and that humans are terrible at recognizing actual randomness

Mike Q

@Delioth True. Fudging the dice should be reserved for when it's absolutely needed.

doppelgreener

@Rubiksmoose my current way to make sense out of these situations is that many people coming in at an entry level to our hobby are genuinely unaware TTRPGs other than D&D exist (and perhaps aren't even aware there's different editions of D&D), and many of the poeple that are aware think every game is basically just the same as D&D. (all of which makes sense once you account for various marketing strategies & the fact a lot of TTRPGs are pretty much exactly like D&D.)

Mike Q

8:46 PM

For example, if the combat is dragging on, and one of the players has missed every single attack roll, and they seem frustrated and bored.... (maybe not a great example, because they're using their own dice)

ACuriousMind

@MikeQ Ah, sure. I'm a notorious fudger :)

BESW

@doppelgreener This is supported by the fact that it really doesn't matter whether tagged for system or not, folks will answer as if it's D&D anyway (see: Lady Blackbird).

OneCritWonder

We're talking about Fudge now?

What kind?

Rubiksmoose

@OneCritWonder Cornelius.

Delioth

@MikeQ There are way more interesting things to do than "this one's a hit" though. I'd never say that fudging "is absolutely needed", it's kind of a cop-out response to a complex problem (and the player certainly isn't helping by just trying the same thing; it'd probably be a good idea to work with them to make sure they have more than 1 thing to do in a situation)

David Coffron

8:48 PM

Anyone have that meta link for closing questions quickly rather than waiting?

0

Q: no intermediate punishment between TPK and Scott free

I ran a session a while back in which the players were fighting a griffon boss. The griffon had KO'd 6 of the 7 pcs, when the last pc finished off the monster. The pc helped up everyone and all was dandy. This doesn't seem appropriate for players to be able to get up and rest without any conse...

OneCritWonder

What you call me you ....

Zachiel

@BESW Maybe it was Lady Blackbird. The question about lightning magic inside the ship, maybe?

doppelgreener

I don't have a great answer, but this is why it's important to quickly place questions in need of editing on hold. — C. Ross Jun 27 '13 at 12:47

BESW

@Zachiel That definitely comes to mind.

Zachiel

@Rubiksmoose LOL

doppelgreener

8:49 PM

that's one that comes to mind, C.Ross being a former diamond moderator here

ACuriousMind

I usually explicitly 'fess up to fudging the first few times I do it with a new group and ask them if they're okay with it and then adjust - which means my different groups have different levels of what they want me to fudge and what not (which runs the gamut from "never fudge" to "we don't care whether you actually roll or not, really")

Delioth

@DavidCoffron I don't have an immediate answer, but a quick search did provide such interesting Googles as "StackOverflow modding itself out of existence" circa 2015

Zachiel

@ACuriousMind A great part of my fun with gaming comes from being aware that I did it without any external help. Those lucky enough to actually do it earn the entirety of my envy.

ACuriousMind

(For the latter, I've generally tried to shift to systems where the GM doesn't actually roll at all)

Maximillian

I don't use it very often, but when the dice are consistently making the table not-fun, I step in as GM and decide we're going to pick a different outcome than the once the dice suggest.

BESW

8:51 PM

@ACuriousMind I'm a big fan of player-facing systems!

Mike Q

> Player: "I want to attack the goblin. Do I hit?"
GM: "Only if you give me a slice of pizza"
Player: "But it's the last slice..."
GM: "Oh, looks like you missed"

OneCritWonder

Mmmm pizza.

Delioth

@MikeQ Oh no, I guess we have to order more pizza. Oh, the humanity. Oh no

BESW

@MikeQ Player-facing systems, like Apocalypse World and Cthulhu Dark and InSpectres, are ones in which the players roll dice but the GM doesn't.

Maximillian

Because sometimes even your well-built tank steps up to tank and then proceeds to whiff 7 attacks in a row, then soaks every hit, then takes a high damage hit, putting him into deep negatives, and he's only been at the table for an hour of your six hour session.

BESW

8:53 PM

I often play Fate as a player-facing system, and it works quite well.

Rubiksmoose

@BESW Yeah no fudging those dice for better or for worse,

Maximillian

I've turned the tables on players who the dice have jinxed before and plainly asked, "Convince this table there's another way out with a more interesting outcome, and I'll give it to you."

Zachiel

@Maximillian This is a good one

Maximillian

And in the case of our bloodied tank, we erased his deep negative kill, decided his arms and torso would have deep, somewhat gruesome scars, and a hero-accenting one across his face, and let him get up the next round, unnerving the enemies who felled him.

Mike Q

@Maximillian This is the type of situation where I would start fudging the rolls (the attack and damage rolls against the PC). What would others do instead?

ACuriousMind

8:55 PM

@BESW Ah, yes - the *World/PtbA systems really remove the idea of fudging and generally shift to the GM's decision of how hard a move they want to make on a failure

KorvinStarmast

@MikeQ Order more pizza. :)

Delioth

@MikeQ Have intelligent enemies realize the guy they're beating on isn't a real threat since he's done nothing to them and can't evade blows, so move on to bigger threats (like the wizard)

Maximillian

P.S. Handing the DM a warm breadstick dusted in Parmesan is a +2 to your roll. This is only valid when the breadsticks are out of reach of the DM, and no more than once per game. ;P

Mike Q

> GM: "Suddenly a valkyrie appears!"
Player: "Oh cool. Am I rescued from battle?"
GM: "No but she gives you a pizza."
Player: "Okay... Do I gain HP from it?"
GM: "No, you gain a pizza"

Rubiksmoose

@ACuriousMind ohhhh that is a really good way of thinking about it. I hadn't thought about that mechanic in those terms but you are totally right.

KorvinStarmast

8:57 PM

@MikeQ Actually "No, but she gives you a slice of pizza."

Maximillian

Something that became a recurring trope in all of my games, regardless of system, is that upon death, you get to have a brief chat with death or some mystic entity and make your case.

Mike Q

@KorvinStarmast +1 to pepperoni-related skills

Maximillian

Not every character is spared from death, but sometimes we've had a lesson from the dying character pass on to the new character (minor boost/gear/power)

ACuriousMind

@Rubiksmoose I think it's how it's supposed to work - think about it: Your players are breezing through their quest? Think dangerous - make every failure hurt. Your players are on an uphill battle against poor dice? Be a fan of the characters - give them opportunities even in failure.

It's right there in the agenda ;)

Maximillian

I think my favorite dying player chat was from a Paladin. "Charon. I would like to buy your boat. Name your price."

Rubiksmoose

9:00 PM

@ACuriousMind You are 100% spot on as far as I'm concerned. Like I knew that, but I hadn't thought about it in terms as being what allows the DM to control the story much like fudging would in others.

ACuriousMind

@Maximillian When the breadsticks are out of the DM's reach, you've already commited an unforgivable sin ;)

Delioth

@Maximillian Charon, I've come to bargain.

Maximillian

The Paladin was a weird fellow. He was convinced that if he bought Charon's boat, he could just sail back to the living world every time.

OneCritWonder

No matter how you slice it...

KorvinStarmast

@MikeQ I always order mushrooms on the pizza, since it sometimes takes a few mushrooms to see that Valkyrie standing beside a half elf astride a unicorn. (No I am not having flashbacks to the 70's, really .. twitch ... I'm OK!)

OneCritWonder

9:05 PM

Korvin knows how to party.

Maximillian

Charon explained the Paladin didn't have any wealth of note. The Paladin offered his soul. The table pondered if this conversation could happen and this man still be a Paladin at all. I decided Charon would give him a little black cat charm to symbolize nine lives for one soul. I informed the paladin he may remain a paladin, he is indeed quite living, but he is slightly cold to the touch. He simply stated he would remain armored in public, and 'what's the worst that could happen?'

The rest of the party just kind of remained stigmatic of the otherwise perfectly good paladin. Which is exactly what I wanted. They were unnerved by his prompt return from death.

BESW

@Rubiksmoose Fate allows for similar control through difficulty-setting, but also gives specific "use this to make things harder when it's appropriate" currency to the GMs, with the option that using it passes it to the players for them to use later.

Fate points are kind of amazing that way.

....and now I'm remembering my one-character-multiple-players system. [writes more notes]

Maximillian

I think I have to play fate before I can run it. I like the concepts in it.

Rubiksmoose

@BESW I did a bit of research on Fate when deciding what system I would run next and the Fate points system really stood out as somthing fun and interesting to me.

OneCritWonder

Meanwhile, on the TPK question...

Rubiksmoose

9:11 PM

@OneCritWonder Yeah I don't really see any way for that question to be reopened.

KorvinStarmast

The querent used the P-Word (punishment) which attracts opprobrium in this on line community. Do we need a meta bout that word?

Piomicron

@nitsua That does seem to be the sort of thing I might like to hear about

Rubiksmoose

@KorvinStarmast I mean, I really don't think that word was the issue at all here.

OneCritWonder

More focus on whether it should or should not be opened than on clarifying the question and exploring possible answers.

ACuriousMind

@Maximillian Dungeon World: The Bard died, in the midst of combat. Arrived at the Gates of Death, and sang Death a beautiful song about what he still had left to do in this world. Awoke with a primal scream (Metal Hurlant) and obliterated the enemy with a lucky 10 on a d10. That was a true metal return to life.

OneCritWonder

9:12 PM

Which would of course... likely result in knowing if it needed to be reopened.

Rubiksmoose

@OneCritWonder It shouldn't be. Not unless it gets a major narrowing of scope.

OneCritWonder

Mmhmm.

KorvinStarmast

@Rubiksmoose Based on three years+ of reading comments and answers here, I disagree with your assessment. Granted, it was not a great question in terms of structure. Please look at SSD's first comment.

Maximillian

@ACuriousMind Upon awakening he needed a little note tucked into their clothing with Death providing critique on the song composition.

ACuriousMind

@Maximillian ::takes notes::

Rubiksmoose

9:14 PM

@KorvinStarmast I have read through all the comments. I happen to agree with them all as well. But specifically with SSD's final assessment of the question as it stands right now.

KorvinStarmast

@Rubiksmoose I am referring to a community norm.

Rubiksmoose

@KorvinStarmast You lost me actually.

OneCritWonder

I don't follow either.

But I'm new to the community.

Rubiksmoose

I was referring to this comment:

@tuskiomi In that case the question is asking for people to submit ideas, which isn't something we can help with. RPG.se is designed for “why” and “how” questions, not for “give me ideas” questions. For crowdsourcing ideas there are many sites online that do it better and where it's on-topic; you could try a chat room or discussion forum from that list. — SevenSidedDie ♦ 16 mins ago

Mike Q

From the question, it looks like the GM wants to apply some consequence because the players did poorly in the fight (even though they were victorious in the end), but they want a consequence other than a TPK?

Rubiksmoose

9:16 PM

@MikeQ Yup that seems to be the gist.

KorvinStarmast

@Rubiksmoose I read or scanned every post on RPG.SE(we were at about 800 pages then) when I first joined in before I made my first post. It's interesting what you can pick up, in terms of tone, when you do that.

Mike Q

So yeah, that needs some fixin, because:
1. Why does the GM need to punish them (aka, q is unclear)
2. What kind of punishment will this particular GM like or dislike (aka, q is opinion-based)

KorvinStarmast

In particular, DM guidance on interactions with players.

Rubiksmoose

The problem being that there are an infinite number of possible consequences (which means it is impossible to answer here) and all of them are highly dependent on the exact circumstances of the TPK (which make it impossible to answer in the general form it is written now anyways).

KorvinStarmast

@Rubiksmoose As to the question, I agree that it needs refinement to get re-opened, for a variety of reasons.

Zachiel

9:19 PM

I think that the question just looks for what the system does to prevent having been on the verge of death be just another bruise.

OneCritWonder

Yeah, and there are actually RAW ways affecting those situations, but even so there is also crazy amounts of open-endedness and DM fiat.

KorvinStarmast

In fact, I wonder of "gm technique" might not be a useful tag here.

Zachiel

I think it's looking for realism, not true punishment

OneCritWonder

Which is why I'd asked the OP if they had read the lingering injury table but where looking for something else.

KorvinStarmast

@Zachiel That's why I changed it to consequences, and removed "players knocked out" to characters knocked out ... and the DMG has a section on this ....

Rubiksmoose

9:20 PM

@KorvinStarmast Oh I'm sure. And that must have taken a long time. I only read through all the 5e ones before I started which were not nearly as many.

Zachiel

To me, that question is screaming "they almost died and now they can just laugh about it? That can't be how it works!"

OneCritWonder

But my comment got removed for answering in the comments. =P

KorvinStarmast

@Zachiel Which oddly enough is how 5e works .... and I think SSD or another person commented on the ranty nature of the question ...

Rubiksmoose

@OneCritWonder I saw your comment as well and it also struck me as an attempt to answer honestly.

Not saying that is what you intended but it certainly read like it was.

Zachiel

@OneCritWonder You should wait for the question to be reopened, then answer. If you answer in a comment, chances are nobody will care about improving the question anymore.

@KorvinStarmast Also 4e and 3e

KorvinStarmast

9:22 PM

that would have been closed as a “rant disguised as a question” from that help link above As originally written, I read "rant" as much as question.

Rubiksmoose

@OneCritWonder For one thing, it wasn't stated exactly like that because I don't remember it being phrased as a question honestly (I may be misremembering).

OneCritWonder

Yeah, but as I noted in the comments it wasn't an answer to the question so much as something that could be incorporated into the question to make it more focused.

"I've read X section but is there a way to do Y RAW"

KorvinStarmast

I suppose that if one goes back into edit histories of T's questions, you may find me editing / helping with a few of them ... I'll go and take a look.

ACuriousMind

@KorvinStarmast Questions disguised as questions are the worst.

Rubiksmoose

@OneCritWonder I do see where you are coming from. I think you were fine with your intent. If you had phrased it as a question I think your intent would have been clearer and you would have been fine.

KorvinStarmast

9:26 PM

Hmm, maybe I try to use comments ... not findig the edits I expected ... but I know I've worked with T on quite a few questions in the past.

GreySage

With KorvinStarmast's edit the question looks fine. Not great, but stackable.

KorvinStarmast

@ACuriousMind Heh, the old double reverse psychology strikes again, ACM. :)

@GreySage Do you think a gm technique tag would be useful?

I believe that the experience base in the group who usually responds can offer T a few good answers

GreySage

@KorvinStarmast Probably

OneCritWonder

Someone microwaved fish ... and then someone else microwaved popcorn.

Rubiksmoose

@GreySage I'm still on the fence. We'll see.

OneCritWonder

9:31 PM

Why....

A Very Large Bear

@OneCritWonder You poor bastard

Rubiksmoose

@OneCritWonder oh dear...

KorvinStarmast

@OneCritWonder Ugh, seems that they owe beer or pizza for that. Foul! Four minute major!

OneCritWonder

We literally just had beer and pizza for lunch for a going away. Why come back to the office and fire up fish and popcorn...?

KorvinStarmast

@OneCritWonder Because chaotic evil is a real thing? 8^D

OneCritWonder

9:34 PM

Roll an Insight check.

KorvinStarmast

@OneCritWonder Well, I failed my save versus stinking cloud, so I'm out of the building. :)

> should I roll an outsight check?

OneCritWonder

Sure. You never know whats going on in the parking lot.

SPavel

"I can tell you I don't have money, but what I do have are a very particular set of skulls. Skulls I have acquired over a very long career." --A necromancer, when asked about his retirement savings plan.

3

Zachiel

What's bad about fish and pop-corns?

Maximillian

So a necromancer drinking milk and working out is improving his capital /gains/ ?

Rubiksmoose

9:41 PM

@SPavel XD. On that note I bid you all farewell for the evening.

Yuuki

@Zachiel Microwaved seafood smells. And so does popcorn.

And it's a lingering smell.

OneCritWonder

And I'm like 10 feet from the break room.

Zachiel

@Yuuki worse than cooking them otherwise?

Yuuki

Most work/office break rooms don't have stoves.

OneCritWonder

Yeah, usually worse than cooking them otherwise. Especially if you're the poor sod who gets to cook your lunch in the microwave post fish-cooker.

BESW

9:45 PM

Popcorn doesn't smell nearly so much, and is much tastier, if you just microwave regular popping kernels and flavor it yourself after.

doppelgreener

I am going to do that now because I'm watching the original Hellboy.

BESW

A spritz of olive oil, a few heavy shakes of curry powder and garlic salt. So good.

doppelgreener

Related: I enjoy listening out for the Wilheim scream in movies. It's like every action movie director goes out of their way to put it in there somewhere.

OneCritWonder

What about that one police radio sound effect? Once you realize it, you can never unhear it in every movie ever.

“liberty 285, code 6, 105 North Avenue.”

Yuuki

@doppelgreener I occasionally run across people who say the Wilhelm scream breaks immersion but it really doesn't bother me.

OneCritWonder

9:48 PM

thedailybeast.com/…

Maximillian

@doppelgreener I had it as a ringtone. For a day. Worst idea.

doppelgreener

@Maximillian that sounds like just the kind of thing that would occur to soomeone as an idea but then also become a bad one.

OneCritWonder

I suppose that I luck out by never having my phone ringer on to wear things out in that way.

I do play the "do I want to ruin a song I like by making it an alarm" mini game though.

doppelgreener

@OneCritWonder i see cop radio lady and raise you that asian stock photo girl

OneCritWonder

Blocked at work but I'm fairly certain I can guess.

doppelgreener

9:53 PM

also hey, audio! nice!:

Liberty 285, code 6, 105 north avenue, 52

►

OneCritWonder

I would have linked earlier but I figured by the time the page loaded at work the convo would have moved on.

We have the best internets. The best.

David Coffron

@Yuuki I am one of those people sometimes. It depends on if its disguised well (like hidden in the action where I am focused on something else). I don't want to notice it on a first viewing tbh

OneCritWonder

Even during the action a Wilhelm scream normally picks up my attention.

David Coffron

@OneCritWonder I didn't notice until my second viewing of Spiderman: Homecoming and that made it okay for me

OneCritWonder

Still haven't seen that.

But I just knocked out Deadpool 2, Infinity War, and Solo ...

Which of course made me hate the theater-going portion of humanity a little more than usual.

David Coffron

9:59 PM

in Discussion on question by tuskiomi: How to implement more moderate long-term consequences after numerous PCs are knocked out?, 14 mins ago, by SevenSidedDie

@DavidCoffron (Aside, that's not what [rules-as-written] is used for.)

Anyone have a good idea when this SHOULD be used?

I always assumed it was for instances where you only want rules that are written somewhere, but the tag description is ambiguous

Yuuki

@DavidCoffron I wish the Wilhelm scream would be used more often. Code reuse saves time, reduces errors, and makes maintenance easier.

OneCritWonder

Not sure. I assume it was for "I only want RAW answers for this question that could easily be answered with non-RAW solutions"

David Coffron

@Yuuki Careful what you say. In 20 years the AI movie makers will make every action-scene scream a Wilhelm scream

Yuuki

@DavidCoffron Movies will consist solely of rearranged stock footage cut at different lengths.

Whenever you want <bad guy is really powerful and intimidating>, you just play the Darth Vader hallway scene from Rogue One.

OneCritWonder

Hooray for hallways

David Coffron

10:04 PM

@Yuuki I think a powerful A.I. will just create CGI that is convincing enough for general audiences and we'll have all the movies in the world

@OneCritWonder #Daredevil

Mike Q

@OneCritWonder Ah, good ol' fish corn, a delicacy from the old country

GreySage

@Yuuki That wouldn't bother me. That may be the single best scene in any Star Wars movie

OneCritWonder

BRB, attempting to wake up the gerbil who seems to be in charge of running in the wheel that powers my CPU

GreySage

Now that the TPK question is opened again, it kind of feels like a dupe, although I'm not sure what of.

KorvinStarmast

@DavidCoffron David, if you want to inflict damage on yourself, by all means review all the meta discussions in re RAW tag. Bring a helmet.

@GreySage Yeah, I could not find the one that had my brain going "haven't I seen this before" just as the 3.5e cleric thing ... didn't have what I thought we had.

David Coffron

10:09 PM

@KorvinStarmast Oh, there're a lot

BESW

Dead Men Don't Wear Plaid

Dead Men Don't Wear Plaid is a 1982 comedy-mystery film directed by Carl Reiner. Starring Steve Martin and Rachel Ward, the film is both a parody of and a homage to film noir and the pulp detective movies of the 1940s. The name of the film itself parodies the enigmatic titles of the hard-boiled detective story series of Cool and Lam, by pulp writer Erle Stanley Gardner under the pen name A.A. Fair. Edited by Bud Molin, Dead Men Don't Wear Plaid is partly a collage film, incorporating clips from 19 vintage films. They are combined with new footage of Martin and other actors similarly shot in black...

KorvinStarmast

@DavidCoffron Yeah, and I can only say that I am sorry I participated in any of them. I don't get those minutes of my life back.

David Coffron

@KorvinStarmast None of them (and I mean none of them) are definitive.

KorvinStarmast

@DavidCoffron And that's with a load of the comments already cleaned out ...

David Coffron

I think the last paragraph of this answer covers my confusion though/

KorvinStarmast

10:15 PM

Speaking of noir, @DavidCoffron I just read again Baker's article on eberron and alignment, and I can't say I find his position appealing. While there is a lot of good stuff in the article, his fundamental premise of narrowing Neutral while claiming noir as the baseline/inspiration for shades of gray is contradictory in a stylistic sense. Noir expands neutral, rather than contract it.

David Coffron

@KorvinStarmast Wrong user I think, I don't remember that conversation

KorvinStarmast

> again, I like some of where he's going, but alignment is as often as not the briar patch. Hmm, I had thought you had recommended that article to me a few days ago, Maybe someone else.

@BESW Even my cleaning woman likes Dead Men Don't Wear Plaid (and no, we really don't have a cleaning woman ... I make with the joke on that one)

doppelgreener

@DavidCoffron That's accurate. Rules as written generally indicates something in the direction of legalistic or literalistic interpretations of the rules in and of themselves as a source of truth. There's various ways people have tried to explain or reason that. It's not 100% settled, but what we do know is it can't be synonymous with rules or else we'd have to blacklist it.

GreySage

"It can't be X, because X is not allowed, therefore it would have been not allowed, and since it is allowed, it clearly cannot be X"

@doppelgreener In my experience RAW is very popular in 3.5 and PF (while almost non-existent in 5e), mostly because those 2 systems were so badly put together and suffer from 3rd party bloat that the only way to make things work reasonably is to interpret the rules, but it is useful to understand the written rules as a basis from which to interpret them.

KorvinStarmast

Danger, Will Robinson ... RAW discussion beginning. See you all later, best wishes to all.

BESW

10:22 PM

@GreySage I think it's also because 5e took a pre-emptive shot across RAW's bow by putting GM fiat front and center as the "fix" for any problems it might have.

doppelgreener

@GreySage I think that's reasonable. One good way someone described it was that rules-as-written is an approach of using the text itself as a single universal source of truth and point of reference everyone has -- it puts aside gameplay opinions, house rules, subjective interpretations, everything.

(Maybe @BESW you were the one that described it that way?)

KorvinStarmast

> we just got done watching first season Lost In Space remake, so I am doing a lot of Danger Will Robinson jokes.

GreySage

@KorvinStarmast Is that good? I've seen it on Netflix but haven't watched it yet

BESW

I've seen attempts to get RAW questions up and running in 5e, and they tend to get burned to the ground in a cannonade of "You're the GM, so the rules don't matter."

KorvinStarmast

@GreySage Good in parts, awful in others. Depends on what your tastes in TV shows is.

Worth a look ...

doppelgreener

10:24 PM

@GreySage It's more that the choice is between blacklisting the tag as equal to "rules", or exploring what it means in a context other than "rules". Between those two we're making a conscious decision to explore the latter.

KorvinStarmast

You're the GM, so the rules don't matter hyperbole ...

BESW

@doppelgreener That's how I interpreted KRyan and Lord Gareth's positions, yes: that every group is necessarily different but in order for online communication about the games to happen we can assume the rules as a shared starting point from which every group deviates.

doppelgreener

@BESW Right.

GreySage

@KorvinStarmast Ever since I started using 5e I've been looking to make a killer Who's line is it anyway joke, but it's never paid off.

David Coffron

10:47 PM

DawnforgedCast linked to us!

trogdor

11:17 PM

@KorvinStarmast sits right next to "it's Fate! Do whatever you want!"

It's amazing how many people answer Fate questions like it's a freeform system

KorvinStarmast

@trogdor I am not a FATE advocate, so I am not sure why that remark headed my way. I do recall a comment in meta by one of our diamond mods lamenting the form of answer to sys rec questions that would begin with "FATE can do that" but that's well behind us now, since sys rec are banned. (Sadly)

> For all I know, FATE can do that. :)

Man, I need to go and do something else . Between resurrection of RAW tag and Sys Rec banning, too many bad vibes are hitting me. Later and positive vibes to all.

BESW

Will I ever learn not to click on ENWorld articles with promising titles? I don't think I've ever not been disappointed by what they actually say.

GreySage

@BESW They're usually ads

BESW

In this case it was "Building a Deeper Horror World," which can be summarized as "I think horror is limited to Mythos gaming and I only know of three systems in that genre, so listen to my sweeping generalizations!"

trogdor

@KorvinStarmast oh sorry I was just commiserating about answers that are both unhelpful and common in form

You stated a D&D one and I was just lamenting a common one I have seen a lot in Fate posts

@KorvinStarmast and no Fate can't do that, it still has rules

You can subvert or change those rules in ways your group needs, but if you are just making everything from scratch that is not Fate anymore

That's just freeform

XD

trogdor

11:46 PM

The biggest issue I mean is that people have often posted "it's Fate do whatever you want" ,.... When the question is literally asking for actual existing rules,.. not homebrew or house rules of info

Heck even if that was what was being asked,... Examples are what are needed, not "just do wtv"

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