TRPG General Chat - 2018-06-25 (page 2 of 3)

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4:00 PM

The sneak attack one already has an answer, I provided a link in the comments.

pack tactics I did not find one, but maybe I searched clumsily

@Rubiksmoose Nd that's kinda my point. If the quesiton "is an illusory dragon a creature", then OP can then find what happens in each of those instances already answered.

And if it hasn't been asked, then that's when you ask :) But lumping 4 stackable questions into one is too broad.

@NautArch But I mean those questions are essentially directing answers towards focusing their answers and much less separate questions as I read them. If there are dupes of specific ones that does make things messy, but I'm not sure it makes it too broad.

@NautArch I don't think those are all stackable and if they asked them all they would all be duped to each other.

That is a pretty clear indicator to me that they can fit in the same question.

Though I don't feel super strongly about it.

@Rubiksmoose It's "Can i target an illusion" (that's a clear dupe), "Can an illusion serve as a mount" and "Can an illusion count as an ally for pact tactics/sneak attack"

With the primary question being "is an illusion a creature?"

@NautArch But the core of this question is about this particular spell (Illusory Dragon) and specifically the part that says "as if it were a creature".

@NautArch I think the question is more specific than that: is this particular illusion a creature. I don't think he's asking the broader question.

4:06 PM

As far as I know that wording is not used or covered in any of the other questions.

Arrgh, I can't call up the spell description, I'll leave it to those who can.

By gathering threads of shadow material from the Shadowfell, you create a Huge shadowy dragon in an unoccupied space that you can see within range. The illusion lasts for the spell’s duration and occupies its space, as if it were a creature.

@NautArch Oh man, "can an illusion serve as a mount" reminds me of the time I spent debating with a GM over the mechanics of shadow magic for a Pathfinder build.

@NautArch So yeah I don't think any of those are dupes at all.

I also had a superbly dumb cheese for using Shadow Evocation: Darkness. I would cast it on my sword and my party would keep making Wisdom saves until they saw through the shadow magic darkness.

Now we have a moving darkness that only affects enemies until they think it might be an illusion and make Wisdom saves.

4:11 PM

What level of spell? The difference between Phantasmal Force and Silent Image was an interesting point in the question I linked to, in one of the answers.

@KorvinStarmast Illusory Dragon is 8th level.

I didn't paste the whole spell description btw. I think there are further relevant points in there.

Ultimately, it's about what does "as if it were a creature" mean?

If it's a creature, then it has all the rights and privileges of one (maybe)

@NautArch Or any other text that would suggest that it can be treated like a creature. But yeah, the question they are asking is if illusory dragon counts as a creature for those specific mechanics

What happens if the party goes into a dark area, and uses Shadow Evocation to replicate Light, and then someone disbelieves it? Can they no longer see?

As with most illusion spells, it may just come down to table.

4:17 PM

@NautArch I think the answer is actually "no" here honestly.

Although I might be starting to think you were right when you say it was too broad.

Terminology question: What is the fallacy when someone uses in-universe problems as an excuse for real-world aggressions or attitudes?

not a fallacy, just someone getting heated up over the game and/or being a dickbag

My guy?

It's not quite My Guy, it's often used in fanbase discussions and whatnot

it's not my guy; my guy is justifying in-universe sucky actions that nobody wants (even the perpetrator) based on in-universe reasons which are entirely mutable

4:28 PM

e.g. "Do they really have to show the gratuitous puppy-torture scenes in *Contest of Futons*? It seems in bad taste."
"It makes sense in universe. It happens all the times in the books."

The fallacy being because it's a fantasy universe that was constructed by an author, who willingly put that stuff in there

The reason there's not a fallacy here is because a fallacy is a fault in reasoning

@MikeQ Oh, that's the Thermian Argument.

@doppelgreener Aha! Yes. That's the one.

"Koriandr's appearance is really objectifying." "No it's fine it makes sense in universe because of how her people relate to..."

@Wolven Listen, you are both wrong. Armed cephalopods would squeeze into articulated armor with blades on the inside of tentacle armor and kill folks with a bladed tentacle hug.

Tweeted by shengokai on June 25, 2018 at 3:48 PM in reply to Wolven

@MikeQ But what you're describing here, real-world aggressions or attitudes based on in-universe problems, is not the Thermian Argument.

4:32 PM

Yeah that wasn't the right word to use. "Behaviors" maybe?

Kind of like "my guy", except with a whole world of lore rather than a single person... Unless I'm misunderstanding the issue with the Thermian Argument.

The Thermian Argument isn't about real-world actions.

The Thermian Argument takes its name from the Thermians, a race from Galaxy Quest who had no concept of fiction whatsoever. This meant they were very confused by human fiction. They could not grasp the concept that it was any different to, say, a literal history textbook. This means they would be very confused by all the different stories about how Hitler died or didn't die, until they also came across the stories about how we have different branching time travel timelines.

@doppelgreener Hm, okay. Suppose at a table, someone is in-character being a jerk to the others, and then says their offensive RP comments are justified based on the in-game lore and mechanics. What do you call this?

@MikeQ The objectionable behaviour is entirely in-game?

@GreySage Yes, based on this question. I'm trying to put an answer together.

@MikeQ I would not call it anything in particular. It is not my guy because my guy is about an outcome nobody wants, where the person is asserting they have no choice because fiction demands it and ceding control.

It is they are being a jerk and not communicating well.

And if they are not intending to be a jerk, their actions have the side effect of being a jerk anyway.

They need to find a way to not be a jerk, nor come across as being a jerk player-to-player because of lack of clarity about who was speaking.

4:38 PM

Huh, ok. I could've sworn there was a term for this.

@MikeQ I would call it "Being a jerk", or possibly something stronger along the same lines

They also need to cut out being a jerk in general, probably: "Look, you're making a lot of comments that are frankly alienating and offensive, please stop. I don't care if it's in character or not."

Related, in terms of how they shape their character, is Making Tough Decisions by GitP, which is sort of a primer in shaping your character to work with the story and the table and not just pretending you have no control over doing that.

2

@doppelgreener That's a great little article. Make your character fit the game because that is the game we are playing, don't pretend like you can't control or change the character

@GreySage Right!

@doppelgreener To make a counter, it's not always that easy. I still have my character and play him how I'd like, but the storyline has had zero impact by the players.

It's basically a choose-your-own-adventure, where the DM hasn't provided any choices.

4:45 PM

@NautArch That is annoying

Even worse is when the DM shuts down the choices

Basically "make suggestions for the plot and when you think of one I like, we will proceed"

@SPavel It's worse. It's "this is the plot, if you deviate, I will kill you."

@NautArch well in that situation it's not shape your character to work with the story because the story isn't asking anything of your character, just demanding your actions.

@SPavel that's how the GM I just started playing with is running his game. It took us 2 hours to get on a simple "escort an artifact to this town" quest from a tavern quest board... and even after we spent the rest of the session talking about what to do with an assassin we found on the road. Still had good fun making jokes and stuff but the pace is really slow when the GM waits for the players to do his job

Like the idea of Making Tough Decisions being, why does your druid have any reason at all to leave his forest and go adventure with these people? Why does your samurai have any reason at all to leave his lord's lands? Well, come up with a good reason -- and maybe it's just because these people are your friends and you want them to be alive.

If it's a choose your own adventure, that dimension of characterisation doesn't even enter into it because you don't get to be asked to justify why you're there. Your involvement is assumed questioning it is not ever going to come up as a thing or an option.

@doppelgreener Correct. I guess it's more 'shaping character', but not to work with the story but to be participate in it.

4:50 PM

@doppelgreener That is the worst because then you get "but muh charactur"

And the DM often says yes, your character must do X, because that is The Story Line

I don't really choose to engage in those campaigns. <_<;

It's a druid, yeah? Then you are obligated to burn down the barracks of the guards because they use metal weapons.

@SPavel Well, if The Plot says so.

@SPavel Seems like a lack of technique/finesse on behalf of the DM. If the character has no motivation to quest, then the DM should come up with some incentive. The druid wants to go back to the forest instead of investigating the goblin camp that everyone else wants to raid? Well guess what, the goblin camp just attacked the forest, now there's a revenge hook.

@doppelgreener The Plot then says that the guards arrest and execute you

@MikeQ The goblins attacking the forest is not part the The Story Line

4:52 PM

The game I just started up is progressing nicely with my storyline and that of the players. I've got an Aasimar from Sigil who somehow arrived in a place that you supposedly can't leave/come to (so strangers who look nothing like the rest of the populace and don't seem to know it are very questionnable), a dwarf who wants to foment an insurrection against one of the Lords who seems to be evil, and a ranger who just wants to explore Humanoids :).

I just threw in that the Captain of the guard under the 'evil' duke is also a DUergar, but seems to be pretty friendly and caring.

@SPavel Eh wat

> explore Humanoids

;)

@MikeQ I see you are not familiar with "be spectators to this novel I wrote" DMing

@NautArch That sounds great. :D

@NautArch Evil characters can be friendly

Oh man, after my meeting I should give a rundown on how my Masks game went (spoiler: better than I feared, much room for improvement)

4:56 PM

No need for Hollywood tropes where the villains must consistently re-prove their villainy and burn as many bridges as possible

@doppelgreener Yeah, the Aasimar bit has been fun. Some townsmen have an extreme dislike for the strange person, others are intrigued. They've been told that the Duke will be told about him, and they think it's a bad thing (but it's a good thing).

@MikeQ It's going to be one of those Acts appear to be evil, but motivations are good.

We criticized one of my DMs for hard railroading by in-character pretending the dungeon was a set, calling for a break, making opinions about the catering table, asking if the orcs on set were union actors or extras, and gaudy shouts of 'I'll be in my trailer!'

They're going to be presented with several of those and will need to decide who to ally with.

@NautArch Duke of Earl?

@Rubiksmoose Heh :) THe regions of the land are each controlled by a Duke, who reports to the King. SOme regions have resources and others control passage.

4:58 PM

@NautArch I vaguely remember you talking about that when you were doing planning some weeks ago. I just think of that song whenever I hear that word.

And wanted to share the pleasure lol

@Rubiksmoose such a great song. If ROll20 would let me play things on youtube to everyone, i'd do it (does discord?!)

Which song?

3 mins ago, by Rubiksmoose

@NautArch Duke of Earl?

Hm, not my style

@NautArch there are some bots you can get that do

5:04 PM

Oh hey meeting canceled.

@Rubiksmoose nice

@DavidCoffron google tells me as well. Hmm, that may be better than th roll20 audio options

So, Masks went pretty well overall. The players all said and seemed to earnestly have had fun. It took about 3 hours or more to create characters, do a bit of worldbuilding and relationship building, and go over all the rules. Then we did a combat (starting in media res). They faced a extradimensional villain called Teacher who attempted to possess and control minds of them and their classmates in order to gain entrance into this dimension fully.

@Rubiksmoose Very Cool! Did you (and your players) like the system?

@Rubiksmoose After taking a bit of a beating from possessed students they finally were able to contain and blow up the portal and a decent portion of the school before AEGIS (superhero police) and press arrive on seen. [end session]

@NautArch I did like it a lot and they seemed to legitimately as well. The rules they seemed to pick up fairly quickly to my surprise. But there are some bad D&D habits that need to be shed on my part at least.

5:09 PM

@DavidCoffron any recs for one?

For example, I had a very hard time fighting the urge to give each PC one action and then move onto the next character. Masks operates on a Spotlight system where the narrative follows what/who is interesting and stays there until it moves to another. That was also a bit jarring on the players' part.

@Rubiksmoose How do you decide when it's time for someone else to participate?

@NautArch By feel mostly. A combination of "who hasn't gone recently" and "who is doing interesting/fun things that need showing right now".

There are no set turns or are there limits to how much you can do in any given time.

I had to break my players very quickly of thinking in terms of actions and turns because those just don't exist.

@MikeQ Wheaton's law seems to be related

But yeah the overall impression was good. I was actually very relieved that I was able to burn through rules in a productive and organized manner. And even though they only got to experience a fight they still enjoyed quite a bit the freedom and narrative focus of the system.

We had to end before any significant on-screen character interactions happened, but next session will be jumping right into that. And really that is where Masks really shines IMO (at least from listening to real plays and talking to people that have run it previously).

But yeah, I was just relieved that it wasn't a disaster, but I do have many areas I really need to work on for myself if I'm going to make this a really great experience.

5:20 PM

@KorvinStarmast I agree. :)

You're making me want to look into Masks

@NautArch do it

Hmm, that Duke of Earl youtube got me to Lola, which was a favorite song of mine back in college. Youtube's a funny thing.

@NautArch I've only used one on the past and didn't like it that much but I'm sure there are better ones if you dig

@Rubiksmoose One thing BESW does sometimes is when someone's in the middle of something, like sneaking into a place through the airducts, he'll resolve the start and middle of it, then change focus to another character to have them do their thing, like sneak in around the back. This gives him context of how to end the previous character's thing, like their airducts leading to overhead where the first character's being swarmed in conflict.

(Or, in our Honey Heist game, second character found a gang of bears planning their own heist, and first character fell out of the air ducts on top of their table with the map and plans on it)

5:24 PM

@NautArch I think it is really a great system honestly. I love how the rules all push and encourage and adjudicate the results of social interactions between characters. Such a night and day difference from D&D where social interaction between PCs especially essentially has no rules and no encouragement to engage with each other and leaving the adjudication largely up to the DM when the outcome is uncertain.

Narrative fiat like what we can/will do in freeform games like Honey Heist won't translate to Masks, but it's a thing.

@Rubiksmoose Yeah, I try to promote social interactions, but without a mechanic to provide XP and guidelines on how it's really loose.

Which then makes me think about that AngryGM article someone linked to me on Inspiration.

@doppelgreener Oh nice! That does seem like a nice way to organize and manage spotlight time. I like that.

@NautArch Have you played a non-d&d system before?

And his suggestion to have a single methodology for giving or using Inspiration.

@nitsua60 You should introduce your high school kids to Masks so they can play teenage superheroes.

5:28 PM

@Rubiksmoose Did a few sessions with Iron Kindoms and one with Paranoia.

all as a player

I wanted to like Iron Kingdoms, but it appears the idea of using magic out of combat didn't really occur to them.

Ok well I don't know about those systems, but it is so clear how D&D was not designed with social interaction as a focus (truly at its core) now that I have seen played a game in which it is truly the core of the experience. This isn't a judgement on if this is good or bad, it just is different. And I don't think I fully understood that until I got into this system.

@Maximillian I was getting into it, but it quickly devolved because of the DM (same DM as our main D&D group) when he started bringing his old problematic methods from D&D into play. We'd never played IK before, and he was already houseruling things that made it less fun and harder than it seems the intent of the system says they should be.

@Rubiksmoose Yeah I agree.

@Rubiksmoose Without specific rules governing how to roleplay social in D&D it just makes it very difficult in terms of player expectations and outcomes.

5:33 PM

I think that's kind of how it goes. People can talk about how these games are fundamentally different from each other, or how they fundamentally just feel different to play from D&D, but it's not something someone really understands until they play the game.

@doppelgreener trouble is no one wants to play other games... (at least where I am) :'(

@NautArch that was either me or nits, I think, the AngryGM inspiration article

@doppelgreener That would be so cool! I wonder how teenagers would interact differently in a game about teenage supers than adults.

@KorvinStarmast I'm still not sure how/if i'll use it. I like having the freedom to give inspiration when I feel it's earned in general and not just for a specific thing. But that also makes it hard for the players to know what/when they'll get it

@NautArch Absolutely. And honestly, if players wanted to they could absolutely ignore the social aspect of it. Which again, is good, some people prefer that and all the power to them.

5:36 PM

On the flipside, giving a clear indication of how they'll get it makes it very easy to get. All I have to do is X, and I'll get it! Unless I'm reading into that too much.

I definitely feel concrete indicators of what means you get inspiration is good

@NautArch the thing about inspiration is that I don't like the idea of a hard and fast rule, nor the vending machine model. I am far more comfortable about "hey, that was cool-IP" because it can be far more effective when it's spontaneous. That also fits into a PC passing their IP to another when "that was cool!" happens.

I think the f5 button on my keyboard is dying

Coming at it from Fate, where it's an empowering way to explore your character, in D&D its mere existence without guidelines and solely coming down to GM discretion means it looks a lot like it's just a bribe to play your character the way the GM wants you to play your character. Which is a sucky, bad twist on how it can function.

@KorvinStarmast And that's kind of the way I try to run it. "Oh, that was cool - have an inspiration"

whether it was a combat move, or something done/said in a social encounter

5:39 PM

i.e. it's kind of a "do things my way and you get Inspiration" mechanic, a railroading or character-controlling feature

@doppelgreener That is an uncharitable characterization of DM's in a given game system. But I do think Angry is roughly right when he opines that the 5e authors went "hey, look at this neat idea in another game system, let's toss in something like that" ...

Yes, it is uncharitable, but it's what the mechanic looks like to me given no guidance whatsoever and D&D's general context.

I use inspiration to benefit players that handicap themselves for roleplay reasons (one of my player's comforted a little girl in the heat of battle while being attacked since fighting back put the girl at risk of going crazy (the girl was being possessed)). Or for generally clever or cool ideas or actions

I'm more on @KorvinStarmast's side on this one. It works if you have a GM that's open to rewarding players for playing their characters, but it doesn't if you have a GM that just wants you to do what they want you to do.

I also completely agree it was probably just "all the other popular systems these days do a token thingy, let's add something like that" -- but they didn't stick the landing and instead ended in a quagmire of More Bad GM Habit Reinforcement.

5:42 PM

@doppelgreener Just out of curiosity, have you read the treatment in the 5e DMG on inspiration? One of the odd things is that the PHB treatment and the DMG treatment only partially align. A source of confusion to some.

In Fate, it's explicitly defined as "whenever your character's own characteristics leads to their life becoming more complicated, or they're just plain unlucky because of fun story reasons, you can either buy that off for a fate point, or accept it and get a fate point."

@doppelgreener I've seen inspiration used very well (and I think I use it well too), some GMs may use it to railroad but when I've been a player with a good GM I've never felt it that way

@KorvinStarmast I do not have the DMG. I only have the basic rules available to me.

@doppelgreener Why do you assume that it will be used badly? ended in a quagmire of More Bad GM Habit Reinforcement my experience on the player side has been overwhelmingly positive with 5 different DM's.

@doppelgreener which reminds me...since I am part of the Chatizen ToA I can set up the 'campaign' under my Dndbeyond account and let chatizens who are playing/following it have access to my owned materials, no?:

5:44 PM

@KorvinStarmast I don't think it will get used badly by all GMs, but I think it's a tool they've implemented badly that easily feeds into bad habits they've historically cultivated.

@doppelgreener You are making some unwarranted assumptions due to incomplete information. And I blame WoTC, given how DMG and PHB passages on the same thing get people scratching their heads with some frequency

@KorvinStarmast I think @doppelgreener just hit the nail on the head there.

@KorvinStarmast I am not. I am making all the assumptions I can make given the information they've given me, which is not incomplete.

I'm told I can pick up the Basic Rules and they'll be sufficient for playing the game.

So, I am making judgements based on what they've given me.

I have an answer somewhere on Inspiration that addresses some of that, but if you call it a clunky tool, or clunky implementation, not gonna get me to argue.

The DMG and the PHB have More Stuff, but they do not make the basic rules incomplete from this regard.

5:45 PM

@doppelgreener The cake [and the basic rules only] are a lie.

@doppelgreener what habit have they historically cultivated that it reinforces?

@doppelgreener Core is: PHB, DMG, MM. I thought that was a basically agreed premise.

@NautArch Well, yes. But if they give me this thing, and tell me it's a complete playable package, I will take it and point out issues with that complete playable package.

@DavidCoffron If the DM is apt to railroad stories and players, then they'll use Inspiration to further that.

And you can play the game with Basic DM and Basic Player only. We did that for 3 levels with no problems when we started.

5:46 PM

@NautArch is that something to blame WoTC for? Or just the D&D community?

@doppelgreener It's definitely not a complete playable package. Not even close.

@DavidCoffron Many things around the DM controlling the social group via in-game actions and passive-aggression, such as Gygax recently explicitly advising that if a player is arguing with you that you should zap their character with a “bolt from the blue” to make them stop.

@DavidCoffron Yes :)

@doppelgreener If you didn't bother to buy the game books (and heck, they are not cheap) you can't say that you have "the game" can you? You can probably pick up some used ones already on ebay ... people are fickle.

It's not all-pervasive. There is good advice and bad advice. They are not villains. But there is a lot of bad advice floating around, and some of it is in the DMG and some of it that isn't is still in the community.

@doppelgreener yeah. That is a horrid idea. Table and in-game mechanics should be kept separate

5:48 PM

@DavidCoffron We agree on that.

@doppelgreener But there is a lot of bad advice floating around, and some of it is in the DMG. Which you don't have? Now I am scratching my head again.

@KorvinStarmast (he may be talking about past editions there, we were discussing historical fostering)

I am trying to puzzle out where in the 5e DMG there is bad advice. I've found it handy from a variety of different directions.

@KorvinStarmast Sure I can. “The Basic Rules for Dungeons & Dragons is a PDF that covers the core of the tabletop game.” So they are telling me I have the core. I can judge that core by the issues it has. If the PHB and DMG have extra guidance I am not privy to, fine. That may be helpful guidance! But is it not in this core, and I am judging this core.

(I'm not going to pick up used ones already on ebay, because I am not interested in playing D&D 5e. I'm happy with the games I've currently got going, and if I play D&D 5e it'll be a one-shot using the basic rules.)

@KorvinStarmast I mean all of the DMs Toolbox chapter is pretty mediocre. (But that doesn't address social aspects of tabletop.rpgs)

5:50 PM

@doppelgreener Well, I guess we'll disagree. You don't have the game, and I was under the impression that core is PHB, MM, and MM.

Hm... We had 6 years of 4e, with 5e being announced 4 years in. Now we have had 4 years of 5e.

4e was likewise announced 4 years into 3.5's reign

@NautArch Iiii don't know sorry

@doppelgreener Which is a good use of the basic rules

@KorvinStarmast they are core rulebooks but the basic Rules are supposed to be enough

@SPavel 6e confirmed?

@doppelgreener Hmm, maybe @nitsua60. I'm thinking it's fine as there aren't really restrictions on who/how it's shared.

5:51 PM

@DavidCoffron Right. What you can get for free is the same as what you pay for. Really? Not sure there is a business model where that works.

@KorvinStarmast In some sense: yes. In another sense: I am literally judging the material they gave me under the terms they gave me. I can say "well I don't have the actual trinity of core books, so I don't know the whole picture" -- but I am not judging that trinity of core books, I am judging the material I have available to me, in the context they are providing it.

@DavidCoffron They've published way less stuff for 5e so it is hard to tell

There is a new pathfinder, which is D&D's only real commercial competitor

@doppelgreener Got it. All is good.

@KorvinStarmast WoTC claims it is enough. It's definitely not is my argument. Their business model is to bait new players in by claiming that the basic Rules will work, get them hooked, and then sell books that actually make the game playable

If they don't announce a 6e soon, this may be the last edition of the game

5:52 PM

@doppelgreener They are in this to make money, right?

And it will just die a slow and sad death

Pay what you want

Pay what you want (or PWYW) is a pricing strategy where buyers pay their desired amount for a given commodity, sometimes including zero. In some cases, a minimum (floor) price may be set, and/or a suggested price may be indicated as guidance for the buyer. The buyer can also select an amount higher than the standard price for the commodity. Many common uses of PWYW set the price prior to a purchase, but some defer price-setting until after the experience of consumption (much like tipping). PWYW is a buyer-centered form of participatory pricing, also referred to as co-pricing (as an aspect of the...

There is actually: "Pay what you want including free" is a popular sales option in Indie. :)

Too unprofitable to live, too iconic to die

It won't die. It'll have some really, really bad content here and there, but it won't die. It's too hot a property.

@doppelgreener Yeah, Hasbro and Mercedes don't use that model. I have met a few third party producers who have it, and they don't make their primary living that way ...

5:54 PM

Certainly

@SPavel they're making a lot from rereleases of old adventure modules. They'll probably be okay leeching on nostalgia for a little while longer

@nitsua60 @KorvinStarmast Sent you discord messages to see if you can access dndbeyond sharing of my content.

PWYW red herring for this particular discussion.

@NautArch I'll check. Phone discord app not currently in a happy place. Will get back to you later on that.

@DavidCoffron So, the film industry's tactic

@KorvinStarmast I'll email you, too

5:55 PM

And whether you love it or hate it, D&D will be the gateway for numerous people into the land of RPGs. Telling them it's bad isn't going to help anybody. Finding out what parts of it worked for them and helping them find concepts, gameplay, and other game systems that build on the parts that work for them is ideal.

@Maximillian what WoTC should do imo is do a revamp ruleset for a different style of game. Like a "D&D Planescape" (for example) that changes 5e mechanics slightly (so virtually a new system) but still attracts the core fanbase. This would let them fix their mistakes without having to make a whole new edition.

@DavidCoffron It's the same problem Gygax identified before AD&D 1e was published. I have an old Dragon article on that, about how the game eventually reaches a point where you don't need more rules ... I'll try to find the issue and see what I can send you.

@DavidCoffron They did this once. That was d20 Modern. They decided they won't be doing that again.

@DavidCoffron So like Starfinder?

It might even have been in the alarums and excursions article he wrote

5:57 PM

@Maximillian d20 modern wasnt different enough. It has to feel different, not just be a patch

Wasn't fragmentation between settings what brought down TSR?

People wouldn't buy Forgotten Realms content because they played in Dark Sun

@doppelgreener Lessee... we've got two kids who want to run homebrew D&D things next year, so that's pretty well covered. The year after that the other leader and I are pulling out CP2020 (a) for nostalgia and (b) to introduce them to that style/theme. So maybe the '21 school year =)

@SPavel If you make integration possible you can avoid that problem

Cyberpunk's gonna get hot again as we ride along to the release of 2077.

Honestly I don't care if the system is "If you roll a six you win". A system that my players can get passable understanding of and end the night feeling accomplished, rewarded, and not socially turn on one another is a victory.

@DavidCoffron If the time ever comes when all aspects of fantasy are covered and the vast majority of its players agree on how the game should be played, D&D will have become staid and boring indeed. and Sorry, but I don't believe that there is anything desirable in having various campaigns playing similarly to one another From A&E, I'll have to search for the dragon reference later.

@SPavel No, SPavel, bad financial management brought down TSR. (And overprinting a variety of things ...)

6:03 PM

@KorvinStarmast "Why would we need another edition after AD&D? It's the best! 10,000 years, D&D forever!"

TSR then fell over dead.

After eating Planescape, Darksun, Dragonlance, and Spelljammer as a snack, WOTC looked at what's left.

@Maximillian They shoulda done a better job with metamorphisis alfa. :) And CRPG's took some of their market share, I think. (Appelcline I think has some data on that ...)

<humor>But the lot of you need to realize you've been doing it wrong, because you should be playing HeroQuest</humor>

Why Heroquest is so Great

@Maximillian There is that ....

(That's a great little video.)

I am reading an Angry article where he waxes poetic about "5 is the perfect number of gods in a game world pantheon" and I look at my 1975 Empire of the Petal Throne rule book. MAR Barker. 5 gods in each pantheon. :)

6:07 PM

@KorvinStarmast By the 9 divines I disagree

I'm kinda glad Fantasy Flight never got around to a 40k Ork RPG system while they had the GW license.

@MikeQ So did the Ancient Greeks. :)

"Biggest player is boss." "Loudest player wins contests."

@Maximillian I remember playing that when I was a kid

Speaking of Orcs, I've been playing Shadow of War since it's on sale. I love the background banter of Orcs and Uruk-hai. "Watch out for 'da Gravewalker, he's INVINCIBLE." "Whas dat' mean?" "Ya idiot! IT means ya can't see 'em!"

@GreySage That's where I got started with miniatures. I did a terrible job. But we all started somewhere.

6:13 PM

@Maximillian That video is a hoot. Thank you! ;)

@KorvinStarmast He's a reminder of what I probably sound like when I preach my love for a game to others.

@NautArch Looks like it works =)

@nitsua60 I am not - I didn't even know that existed

Are people there stabbing me because I said sometimes it's fine to fudge rolls? :P

@DavidCoffron <cough>spelljammers<cough>

=D

@doppelgreener *such as Gygax recently ... bolt from the blue ... * That was in Strategic review, about 1976, IIRC. Not quite recently, and he's been dead gor almost a decade. ;)

6:17 PM

@HellSaint No, but about four days ago someone posted a "why do people fudge rolls all the time in AL?" rant/question, and it's blown up pretty big. Helped along by the original poster's trollish behaviors.

[rummaging]

facebook.com/groups/DMsLeague/permalink/2032012166871691

@nitsua60 do integration well

@nitsua60 Well, "why" is simple, I even mentioned in my own answer: AL is based on honor system and you don't have anyone checking on you all the time :P

so yeah, people that want to cheat will simply cheat.

@DavidCoffron I've got a soft spot in my heart for SJ. Even though at the time I could see that it wasn't very well done.

But recently I found a twenty-five year old spiral notebook full of deck plans lovingly crafted for 'jammers. Can't kill that nostalgia!

@nitsua60 Nice! I guess if anyone here wants to 'follow' the characters from the Chatizen ToA game (and also have access to almost all dndbeyond rulebook content), please let me know.

@nitsua60 I've GM'd the Spelljammer setting very recently and it works fine but you have to do a lot of homebrewing on the system (I used 5e, which is vastly different though so take that part with a grain of salt)

6:22 PM

@NautArch Thanks, that was very nice of you.

@NautArch Chatizen?

SpellJammer had what.. A 2E box set and a 3.5 article in Dragon?

@Maximillian yeah. That's why you have to work with it a lot

@Maximillian And my heart. <3

4eva.

But my player's had tons of fun once I got a good rule set together (my brother helped me playtest until it worked well). Only 6 sessions before the group broke up but they were great sessions

6:24 PM

Increase the realism by having your players have to dock, go through planetary customs, declare food/animals, and having proper paperwork! (Note: Never do this)

@DavidCoffron If you wrote them down, mind sharing?

184

Q: Support for OpenID ends on July 25, 2018

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@KorvinStarmast Thanks. I recall hearing about him still giving that advice in the 2000's.

@KorvinStarmast I bought the subscription for my players, but figured if I've got it, might as well get the most of out of it :)

@DavidCoffron Folks who hang out on the rpg.se chat

Heads up: we're about to send an email out to about 120,000 users who *only* have an OpenID to login to Stack Exchange. We'll be removing OpenID support from our code entirely in 30 days. This is for .NET Core, testability, and our sanity.

Tweeted by Nick_Craver on June 25, 2018 at 5:36 PM

I am surprised to see ".NET core" and "sanity" in the same sentence

6:31 PM

So long as you aren't using VB.NET as an RPG system.

@Maximillian My 2e experience never included spell jammer, beyond some dragon articles I read. Would have been nice to have experienced that.

@Maximillian I wrote an RPG in BASIC back in the day....

10 GOTO 20

20 ADVENTURE

@doppelgreener I am sure he did.

@DavidCoffron Which definitely includes you :)

6:35 PM

@Maximillian 30 PRINT "you are eaten by a grue. and smell like poop."

(That's about the level of game-design I was pulling in the 80s =)

@nitsua60 It was almost a year ago. I'll do some digging

@doppelgreener Mike Mornard frequently cracks me up with his DM advice and trips down memory lane. They are a vivid contrast to a lot of contemporary GM/DM theory ...

@NautArch if love to spectate. :)

@DavidCoffron Want the access link?

I'm only now noticing @nitsua60's avatar is a sheep.

I always thought it was some hermit with a travelling bag in the back

or a thief from old nintendo rpgs

6:39 PM

For the chatizens who'd like to follow the characters from @nitsua60's Tomb of Annihilation Roll20 Game (and also get access to all but the Tortle package of compendiums on DNDbeyond), please email me here. This link will end in 24 hours and I can repost.

@DavidCoffron ^

@NautArch Wait, follow in terms of what, the campaign log?

@MikeQ Currently just character status for the folks who put one up. I may copypasta logs on Roll20 on there, too - but it's mostly for seeing the players and accessing compendium content.

Active players get one of the 12 spots, rest are up for grabs.

Was I supposed to put up a status?

Current status is: Feeling better after being stabbed in face

@MikeQ ?

@NautArch I'm the bard, joined last session

6:43 PM

@MikeQ I think I sent you a link from our email chain.

oops, you weren't on that.

sent you an email

@MikeQ Are you feeling better because you're healing after being stabbed in the face, or because you were stabbed in the face?

@GreySage English grammar is a funny thing...

@NautArch I starred this, but I can unstar it if you want.

@Rubiksmoose Nope, was hoping someone would :)

@NautArch Is the tortle package on dndbeyond?

6:50 PM

@DavidCoffron It is, I just haven't bought yet.

@NautArch I mean it's one race so it's obvious not core lol

@Mike I thought someone shot an arrow into salty's face. Must have been a different face. Please post your recollections at the r20 forum post as a reply to my overly long summary.

@NautArch arrrrrrg OP struck again, answering only the least important question in that fighter charop Q. >:(

@Rubiksmoose I guess add his latest and then remove comments?

keeping my long list which was unanswered :)

@Rubiksmoose Thank you for hanging in there with the OP .. hopefully they'll address Nauts five points in full (and thus make it something we can work with).

7:07 PM

Just doing what we all do: trying to get good quality questions asked and answered. :)

@NautArch It looks like they may be starting to answer them!

@Rubiksmoose are you making the edits to the main question? If so, i'll hold off. Now i'm not sure if an optimized build for 1-20 is too broad :/

@NautArch There are some answers on this SE that have builds/optimized, 1-20, I think Andraz did one a while back.

@KorvinStarmast Yeah, I figured as long as you provided the build at each level it's doable. It's just a big ask :)

There were a few when 5e came out, and I think there are some 4e builds along those lines from years before that. Let me check.

but knowing tthat it's a 5 minute adventuring day and wanting nova damage makes it much easier to answer.

and now it makes sense why the paladin/rogue was an interesting thought. You're looking for lots of big damage and crit fishing.

7:19 PM

But is there one build that maximizes damage at every level? That seems highly unlikely. I'm not sure how one would even reasonably do such an analysis.

@Rubiksmoose Yeah, i dunno. Not a question for me to answer.

that's what i do know.

Same.

added the content and voted to reopen

@NautArch I was in the middle of doing just that. But your edit was better than mine atm so saved me work.

@Rubiksmoose IIRC, the Champion Two Handed GWM feat fighter tries to do just that.

7:28 PM

@KorvinStarmast Huh, well people are welcome to tackle it. I voted to reopen so have at it.

@Rubiksmoose 1-20!?! No single build does that. I'll answer it best I can.

(After work)

There are a number of folks who are pretty good at this sort of thing.

@KorvinStarmast @Rubiksmoose I'll just make a spreadsheet and throw in every high nova build with fighter in it for each level. Then create some aggregate damage function for the final decision

@KorvinStarmast that build isn't the best at some.levels (Fighter 2/Druid 10 can put of crazy nova burst with elemental wild shape)

As can Fighter 1/Bard 10 with swift quiver/archery

~~~

But no magic limits it severely

Action surge will be big. After that I wonder whether it's worth staying in fighter at all.... Second attack will help but a lot of classes get that. Third attack's a big investment in one class....

@nitsua60 well Champion is very good if you don't go for Assassin.

And Battlemaster Trip Attack might be good to get advantage

7:43 PM

@DavidCoffron 15% crits rather than 5, sure. Haste. Hmm... a lucky blessed hasted action surging GWM20 with precision dice is going to pull, what... 9 attacks in the round? With virtually all of them hitting?

@nitsua60 is haste allowed though? How much is no magic

@DavidCoffron They said they preferred the damage be mundane.

(And I'm not a fan of "prefer" on a charop question.)

@nitsua60 true. Then swift quiver will be good for those few levels...

Problem is a lot of builds have sweet spots for damage

(Sweet spot levels)

Like the paladin assassin build is pretty mediocre levels 1-2 and 5-7

Not to mention the damage jumps for Moon Druid

Yeah. The Sharpshooter I built was optimized for lifetime DPR, weighting levels 1-4 half as much as the rest (since they go by so quickly) and assuming enemy AC of 12+floor(level/3). Or something like that.

(And played through Storm King's Thunder.)

@nitsua60 I wonder if the Aakockra grapple drop build.is good enough (using action surge to dash and stacking MS buffs to scale)

7:55 PM

@nitsua60 We have found as a team in the tier 3 game I am currently in that, with my Champion, when he can get advantage that crit fishing goes into high gear, particularly when I pick a turn where I do action surge. Six swings, and multi chances to crit on each one.

It's pretty cool. Of course, I am not using GWM and a two hander, I am a sword and borad guy whose one desire in life is to find a cloak of displacement.

Our GWM Barbarian is the spikey nova damage guy. I recall one round where after I had attacked and shield mastered a giant prone (I had a growth potion) he did over a hundred damage using the -5+10 ... but since I'd gotten him advantage it was like a blender had gone to Puree. 1. On your turn, when you score a critical hit with a melee weapon or reduce a creature to 0 hit points with one, you can make one melee weapon attack as a bonus action

whoa?! What level? My Paladin 17 with GWM has only done 100+ a couple of times. How is the Barbarian getting that kind of damage?

He got a hit, then scored a crit on the next hit, and followed up with a crit. (IIRC he has 20 STR and he was raging of course ...).

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