TRPG General Chat

3:01 PM

@KorvinStarmast The mobile Diablo one

@kviiri I saw a couple of youtubes made by fans about what happened at Blizzcon, and while I understand how fans are, and it was Blizz con, my core response was "first world problem" and "tempest in a teapot."

@goodguy5 I already offered an updoot, and did a quick edit for format.

Sir Cinnamon

@KorvinStarmast I was at blizzcon and from the second this whole drama started i've been of the opinion that it's a massive overreaction to what is basically a minor PR mistake

Yuuki

@KorvinStarmast Yeah. It could either be really good timing because Diablo is in the forefront right now or it could be bad timing because a lot of people are having a visceral reaction to "Diablo" right now.

Sir Cinnamon

which was extra confirmed for me when I played the Immortal demo

KorvinStarmast

@SirCinnamon I tip my cap to you. How was the demo?

I don't care for games on my phone that are "real time" since my thumbs are clunky on phone ...

Sir Cinnamon

3:04 PM

@KorvinStarmast As someone who doesn't play a ton of mobile games of that type, it was solid.

it was the best example of controls on a mobile phone i have ever seen

Yuuki

@SirCinnamon If there's anything you can attribute to the general gaming population other than "plays video games", it's "massively overreacts".

Sir Cinnamon

Will I play it? Possibly. Even if I don't, i'm not going to pitch a fit that it exists

Yuuki

I just don't have the time or willingness to invest myself emotionally enough to where I start raging due to video game news.

Sir Cinnamon

I need to save that rage for playing actual video games

Yuuki

I save that rage exclusively for when my friends drag me to play CoD multiplayer.

I get extremely salty when I play any mode that's not Zombies or Blackout.

Not sure why exactly, I suppose it has something to do with how often you die/respawn in that game mode.

goodguy5

3:14 PM

@KorvinStarmast thanks, boo ♥

KorvinStarmast

@SirCinnamon Are they charging for it, or is the business model DLC?

goodguy5

@Yuuki what platform?

Yuuki

@goodguy5 PC.

goodguy5

PS4, sad

Sir Cinnamon

3:30 PM

@KorvinStarmast As far as I know they have not announced the payment model. I've heard a lot of people assuming it's a farmville, microtransaction powered game simply because it's on a phone, but to my knowledge blizzard has not said anything about it

KorvinStarmast

@SirCinnamon Alrighty, I'll keep my eyes peeled.

Delioth

Looks like there were some meeting pics leaked (and promptly taken down, then reddit re-posted them because of course they did) where they were discussing microtransactions and pay-to-win

Sir Cinnamon

@KorvinStarmast I've got my fingers crossed for maybe a ~10 dollar pay once model

Delioth

Nothing conclusive, but of course people are up in arms about microtransactions => pay to win

Personally it means nothing, as a dev we have tons of meetings to discuss things that we may or may not do; they're worthwhile even if it's a 2 hour meeting concluding with "we're not going to change anything"

Yuuki

Anything that encourages Lost Ark devs to bring their game overseas is fine by me.

That game looks so smooth and pretty.

Sir Cinnamon

3:37 PM

@Delioth worrying i guess, but yeah the business side will always suggest stuff like that and (hopefully) be shot down by the dev/customer rep side

Delioth

@SirCinnamon Hell, as far as I can tell it's an asian vendor of some sort talking to Blizzard themselves about having that be a possible microtransaction route (could be an asia-specific thing).

Sir Cinnamon

@Delioth The market is very different, yeah

Yuuki

Yeah, Asian markets are lot different.

Delioth

@Yuuki Oh no, another korean MMO? (/s) I haven't heard about that one yet

Yuuki

They're far more accepting of microtransactions and ticket-based gameplay simply because of a different gaming style.

For example, Lost Ark has a controversial ticket-based dungeon system. IIRC, you get a certain number of tickets per day that you spend to attempt a dungeon.

As far as I know, it's only controversial among Western gamers because most Western gamers own their own systems and Internet connections.

Delioth

3:41 PM

This makes me dislike it.

Or at least, have a gut reaction of distaste

Yuuki

Korean gamers, on the other hand, usually play in Internet cafes where they have to rent time on a machine to play.

@Delioth If it's anything like Monster Hunter Online's system, you have more than enough tickets per day to spend like three hours or something playing.

Delioth

Fair enough - I can understand it and it makes sense, I just don't like it

kviiri

@KorvinStarmast Yeah, I mean... I don't find the idea of a studio "ruining" something too alien but the near universal hatred (not just dislike) has been kinda off-putting

Delioth

MHW at least doesn't bother with those sort of resources (you get limited double zenny vouchers, but it's ~1/day and you can stockpile up to 5)

Yuuki

Zenny is so incredibly easy to get anyways.

Ever since Tri, I've never had a moment where I couldn't get an upgrade because I didn't have enough zenny.

NautArch

3:44 PM

We have a lot of questions related to handling small creatures for 5e.

Sir Cinnamon

@Yuuki I have, but only because I attempt to collect every great sword

even the ones that are objectively inferior

Delioth

Yeah, though I always find myself short on it. I've taken to growing godbugs since they're worth plenty, and then just selling them. I probably have a bunch of Kulve trade-in parts to sell too

Yuuki

Whereas in MHFU, I'd have to take breaks from progression or material-farming to go hunting for stuff to sell for zenny.

Sir Cinnamon

I've fallen off playing MHW unfortunately

Delioth

PC though so might be an event or several behind, if you're on other systems

They're giving us love with Kulve now, and then Lunastra (?) on Thursday, coinciding with KT going away

Carcer

3:50 PM

I'll just stick to endlessly grinding warframe

KorvinStarmast

@NautArch A common community norm might be distaste for Kender and Munckins, hence the appeal to the tossing of small creatures ...

Delioth

@Carcer Also a fan, but Warframe doesn't give that "Heavy Weapon" feel that MHW gives when you hoist your Greatsword/Mallet

kviiri

I used to play this old, really charming MUD for a while but I eventually gave up on it because it was so grindy, and made a promise to myself I'd never bore myself playing a game ever again

Delioth

But right now I'm starting Path of Exile because I wanted something with a big branching skill tree

NautArch

@KorvinStarmast also feel bad for the downvotes. Except for the weird fall-breaking thing (which I think is probably just falling damage), I don't see anything downvote-worthy (and I'm a guy who isn't afraid to downvote.)

Carcer

3:53 PM

@Delioth have you ever tried the Corinth

KorvinStarmast

@NautArch Yeah, it's not a bad question.

Delioth

@Carcer I haven't, but heavy gun !== heavy melee; and the Greatswords in MHW "feel" much more beefy than the Gram/Galatine/Scindo

Carcer

sure

the corinth is extremely satisfying though

most fun gun in the game hands down

Rubiksmoose

The fall breaking rules are in the rulebook, but they are as follows: If your fall is broken, you avoid taking damage and do not fall prone. And, this is a partially flat throw, shaped like a cycloid. — Jon 6 mins ago

I think they may be thinking of previous editions here.

Delioth

I'm a big fan of the Tigris, it feels super satisfying

Carcer

3:57 PM

I did enjoy the tigris too

Delioth

Ferrox too

Carcer

haven't mucked with a ferrox yet

KorvinStarmast

@Rubiksmoose Might be a monk feature ... or a feat?

Delioth

It's worth it. Massive damage and super satisfying charge time+recoil makes it a little tricky to use. And Tenora for a machine gun is perfect - there's practically no recoil once it's spun up

Rubiksmoose

@KorvinStarmast Definitely not a feat, and the only monk feature I know of elminates fall damage entirely.

It was a PF rule though IIRC.

You could roll acrobatics to break a fall (again IIRC)

NautArch

4:00 PM

Love it when reddit threads turn into stack questions :/

Delioth

@Rubiksmoose Yeah, Pathfinder lets you make an acrobatics check to break a fall, though it really is just treating the fall as 10' less than it really is. You still automatically fall prone if you take any damage from the fall, IIRC

Yuuki

@Carcer Nah, that flak gun does some hilarious things.

goodguy5

@Delioth and you can "cautiously" fall to reduce the effective distance by another 10 feet

Rubiksmoose

@NautArch Yeah....

goodguy5

So, you can drop down 20ft with no damage if you make your check.

Delioth

4:02 PM

Yeah, though this GM wouldn't allow you to ever use your "cautious" fall while the barbarian is hurling you

Carcer

@Yuuki you mean the drakgoon?

Sir Cinnamon

It is kind of funny that a 10ft fall can hurt a big hero

Yuuki

@Carcer Yeah, that thing.

Delioth

@Carcer Drakgoon is heaven

Carcer

the drakgoon is also fun - but the corinth is better

Yuuki

4:03 PM

The bouncing is fun.

goodguy5

@Delioth haha no. it's only for "intentional" falling.

"Falling with Style"

Delioth

Lucky for you though, there's a feat for that

Yuuki

I also liked using the Glaive but only because it gave certain pistols cool reload animations.

NautArch

@Rubiksmoose IT's the whole issue of "i read about an idea/problem". It's hard to ask the right question when it's not actually your question.

This question has both a general "how does this work" and a specific "but what about this?" Unclear which is the actual question.

kviiri

@Rubiksmoose In DnD 5e, you mean? If so, it actually only lets them reduce fall damage

Delioth

4:05 PM

Branch leaper or something, it lets you charge at someone from above by jumping on them, and you get to deal the fall damage as part of your attack, taking no fall damage if your attack hits. Combine with Death From Above to get +5 from charging from on high (rather than the +2 from charging) and it's fun

kviiri

I know because that actually was a point in one of our recent sessions

Delioth

@Yuuki Castanas or Talons are super-fun too. Incredibly dangerous once they're modded for tons of damage, but it's sometimes fun to give them multishot and carpet bomb an area as Zephyr

Rubiksmoose

@kviiri ah yeah good point.

Delioth

Side-note, they will kill you if you look at them wrong (or get a little too close)

Rubiksmoose

Misremembered that.

Yuuki

4:06 PM

I'm trying to find this gif I made of the reload animation.

Rubiksmoose

This is just one of those kind of sad cases where newbies think 5e is more able to deal with goofy things than it is RAW

goodguy5

@Rubiksmoose I get your point, but one of the first things the book tells a DM "raw" is to make stuff up and have fun.

Yuuki

Why I use the Glaive.

Delioth

Yeah, think so. It's a solid system and everything it handles it deals with pretty solidly. But there's not much support when you want to color outside the lines (Re: that vampire-class discussion from last week)

Rubiksmoose

@goodguy5 Sure, but oftentimes that can clash or be hard with the dictate to also keep things fair and them mechanics balanced.

Especially for new DMs it can be very hard to figure out what they can make up without hurting the game.

goodguy5

4:13 PM

I think, really, the question should be "How can I make dwarf tossing fun and balanced in 5e?"

or replace "dwarf tossing" with "the fastball special"

Rubiksmoose

In some less rules-heavy systems this wouldn't be an issue (eg PbtA could do this in Masks without any fuss at all)

KorvinStarmast

@Rubiksmoose I want to see Tavern Brawler feat have an option for Gnome Tossing as a proficiency. That would be cool.

David Coffron

@goodguy5 well my answer to the gnome dropkick question tries to answer that

Delioth

@goodguy5 Have it take the action of the throw-er to deal [javelin damage], the bonus action and movement of the throw-ee, and the action of the throw-ee for them to attack

Rubiksmoose

@KorvinStarmast hahaha that would be hilarious

Delioth

4:15 PM

Effectively, you're just letting the throw-ee Dash as a bonus action (like Rogues can do anyways) and putting an extra die of damage from the thrower to the throwee

Carcer

@Yuuki >ember prime

jealousy

goodguy5

Personally, I would make it scale with attack economy.

If a level 20 fighter is throwing a character, I'm making it do at least an extra 4d6 worth of damage

Carcer

@goodguy5 something something vital strike

goodguy5

basically

Yuuki

@Carcer I haven't played in a long time but the last thing I did was farm Zephyr Prime.

Delioth

4:17 PM

@goodguy5 Yeah, I'd really just make it do as much extra damage as a full action of javelin (or something similar) attacks

Yuuki

Zephyr's probably my favorite frame.

Delioth

@Yuuki I love Zephyr on PoE, but just feels too constricted on most other maps

goodguy5

because with two characters, we can do the following:

Character 1: move and attack (or bow or whatever)
Character 2: move and attack (or bow or whatever)

So, we're putting character 2 in the fray, without letting character 1 "attack"

KorvinStarmast

@goodguy5 Gnome throwing is a Fighter's Cantrip. 1d6 at levels 1-4, 2d6 at levels 5-10, 3d6 at levels 11-16, and 4d6 at levels 17-20. Love it.

Carcer

I had a very large break in playing

goodguy5

4:19 PM

@KorvinStarmast perfect

Carcer

most of the prime frames came out and then were vaulted again before I got back into it

I have rhino prime, frost prime and mag prime but the rest are distant grindy dreams

goodguy5

@KorvinStarmast Actually.... the more I think about it, the more I like that as an honest answer....

KorvinStarmast

@goodguy5 Barbarians get additional range, since they can throw them spinning, like a Frisbee ... but as a house rule I can enjoy that .. but I don't think an answer with that house rule will be popular

goodguy5

yea, but it'd be funny

not kidding, the more I think about it, the more I really like that answer.

it uses established cantrip scaling. (which for argument's sake, is balanced)

very little fuss.

KorvinStarmast

And you have to throw a creature one size smaller than you.

goodguy5

4:22 PM

yea

KorvinStarmast

@goodguy and it is Class specific so that Ogres can't start throwing dwarves at me! 8^o

CTWind

Hurly Gloves: These magical gloves allow grant you the strength to pick up and throw your "willing" allies with ease. When taking the Attack action with an ally your size or smaller adjacent to you, you may replace any of your normal attacks with lifting up and throwing your adjacent ally as if they were a warhammer with the 'thrown' property and 20/60 range. The ally then chooses to remain adjacent to the target creature, or to fly back to a square adjacent to the thrower.

David Coffron

@goodguy5 not sure if I agree with that. Fighters get Extra Attack because if their expertise with weapon attacks. Not with throwing gnomes (just like how they don't scale their alchemist's fire damage)

KorvinStarmast

@CTWind Con save versus airsickness, nausea, on the return trip ...

CTWind

(this movement does not provoke opportunity attacks, ran out of space. :-P)

KorvinStarmast

4:24 PM

@DavidCoffron David, we hear a lot that fighters are boring. Here is how to unboring the Fighter. 8^D

RAF answer

CTWind

goodguy5

> **Fastball Special**
Components: V S M (one smaller creature, to be thrown)
Target: One creature within 20 feet

Make an improvised weapon attack. On a successful hit, Deal 1d6 (+str?) damage. This damage increases by 1d6 at 5th level; and again and 11th level and 17th level.

Rubiksmoose

Feat name proposals: Friendly Fire, Frisbeast, Creature cannon...

KorvinStarmast

@Rubiksmoose Gnomeaggedon

Yuuki

If it's the Fastball Special, the allied creature thrown should be able to make an attack on a successful hit as well.

KorvinStarmast

4:27 PM

Using a reaction?

Yuuki

And then start cursing while hitting on red-heads.

goodguy5

@Rubiksmoose Halfling Hucking

Rubiksmoose

@goodguy5 @KorvinStarmast nice XD

goodguy5

@Yuuki That's up to the thrown creature to ready said action

Yuuki

Alternately, instead of making it a Fighter ability, make it a Halfling racial feat(ure). Using an action, you may ready yourself to be thrown by an ally. If thrown at an enemy, you deal 1d6 (+STR) damage and may also choose to make a single weapon attack.

Moacir

4:33 PM

@Yuuki You can increase the range you are thrown if you ate beans in the last 24h, at the cost of stinking for 1d4 hours after being thrown.

goodguy5

X-D

@Moacir Beans, Brussels Sprouts, drank cheap ale, ate raw onions. etc

David Coffron

@Yuuki or just any small race (like how we have stout nimbleness)

Moacir

@goodguy5 Yep. With a penalty of charisma (or buff if you are interacting with orcs/half-orcs)

goodguy5

man Beer and me. phew....

Moacir

Throw a farting halfling against the leader of an orc tribe and suddenly get +respect from everyone

KorvinStarmast

4:38 PM

@Yuuki Nah, I want to make it a Fighter ability to respond to the never ending complaining that Champion Fighter is boring as a class. (I see that a lot at GiTP).

goodguy5

I'm sorry haters. "I have a 15% crit chance" isn't good enough for you

Though, I just realized that you have a 15% crit chance with our halfling hucking ability at 15

Yuuki

"On critical hit, your ally explodes, resulting in a shower of gore, and your target must make a Constitution save or spend the next round vomiting and make a Wisdom save or be inflicted with traumatic stress."

David Coffron

@Yuuki ew

@Yuuki but what is the duration of said shower? Can the resulting mess be efficiently cleaned with prestidigitation?

CTWind

This also happens on a natural one, except with the sound of a balloon popping and instead of gore, it's mundane confetti.

KorvinStarmast

@goodguy5 For most play, Tier 1 and 2, that's a 10% chance. I have a 14th level Champion who still does not have that last boost to crit ...

@Yuuki Oh, yeah, even better, unless that gnome was a 13th level illusionist ally. Whoops"

goodguy5

4:51 PM

Cast Mirror Image on oneself and be thrown.

found this gif

Mike Q

Why not a baseball player themed fighter archetype

Reaction to deflect incoming projectiles, if you're wielding a 2 handed bludgeoning weapon

Yuuki

@goodguy5 That's where the term "fastball special" comes from.

KorvinStarmast

5:06 PM

@MikeQ Interesting variation on the Monk. Make that a Kensei ability?

Moacir

Marvel Ultimate Alliance has these too. You can throw Reed as the Thing iirc

David Coffron

@goodguy5 yeah but collosus is jacked and wolverine is....jackman?

Mike Q

@DavidCoffron Huge Jackedman

Rubiksmoose

5:24 PM

The feature says: "add double your proficiency bonus to the check". Remember that proficiency bonus is always applied to a roll by adding it to the roll. So even expertise has an addition in there when it is applied to a roll. So, both features doubling the prof bonus and then adding it to a roll. So this would violate both addition and multiplication sections of that rule. — Rubiksmoose 32 secs ago

Does this make sense?

David Coffron

@Rubiksmoose to me, but I know the rule. It might be less clear to a new player

Rubiksmoose

@DavidCoffron Just making sure I was still making sense.

Rubiksmoose

5:49 PM

Are there any effects which add a flat value to prof bonus?

I want to say no, but I'm not sure/

Carcer

I can't think of any

Sir Cinnamon

Nothing comes to mind

Sdjz

@Rubiksmoose Ioun Stone (Mastery) ?

Sir Cinnamon

Well hey look at that! Nice catch

David Coffron

@Rubiksmoose I think you can also get it on an artifact as a major benefit (but I might be wrong)

Rubiksmoose

5:57 PM

@Sdjz Nice!

@DavidCoffron oh good idea.

doppelgreener

@DavidCoffron Wolverine is Hugh Jackman, Colossus is Jack Hugeman.

David Coffron

@doppelgreener and Rogue is Man Jackhyou... powers

doppelgreener

@DavidCoffron Niece of Austin Powers.

David Coffron

Austin... aww stin... Stan... Lee... RIP

doppelgreener

rip

nitsua60

6:04 PM

I was just writing a two-line e-mail and couldn't think of the right way to end the second sentence. I looked at the screen and GMail had, in grey, found the perfect words.
That's the singularity, right? The singularity's here? I can take the afternoon off?

David Coffron

@nitsua60 if the Borg has reaches the singularity we are all in trouble

Diamond mods included

nitsua60

@DavidCoffron Yeah, the borg really wouldn't like the angles on this diamond....

kviiri

phew... now, with work day concluded, time to come up with an implementation of my algorithm that doesn't raise hell at the cluster

nitsua60

Wow, I just spent the last minute barely breathing because of spasms created by a bit of saliva caught in the wrong spot when I simultaneously hiccoughed and coughed.
I don't know about this whole body thing.
I thought the singularity was supposed to cure these ills.

Sir Cinnamon

@kviiri Reminded me of a great page from the latest issue of Unbeatable Squirrel Girl pbs.twimg.com/media/Dr9q7kiWsAA_sbo.jpg

@nitsua60 You have to actually get the robot body for those benefits to kick in

GreySage

6:11 PM

@nitsua60 You have to transfer your consciousness to a robot before you get rid of those.

nitsua60

@GreySage I thought the singularity would fix all those sequencing problems. Along with my student loans!?

goodguy5

I hate when that happens.

I sneezed and hiccuped last week and I was definitely concerned that I had caused lasting internal damage.

nitsua60

@goodguy5 Seriously: I sneezed a few months ago, somehow tweaked my lowest-lower abs, and have been on a fortnightly sawtooth trajectory that looks like "feeling better-->feeling good-->unexpected sneeze-->cannot sit up from lying down-->rest a week-->feeling better-->..."

goodguy5

@nitsua60 oh yea. I know that life all too well.

except my back

Rubiksmoose

@SirCinnamon Man I love USG

Sir Cinnamon

6:16 PM

@Rubiksmoose Bought the previous issue on a whim, definitely going to try and keep up with it

nitsua60

@goodguy5 Seriously--I went for a 10-mi run last week, no problem. Sneezed on Tuesday, still can't get myself out of bed right.

Sir Cinnamon

I'm a big fan of Ryan North so I'll buy just about anything he works on

goodguy5

@nitsua60 See, that's your problem.... don't 10 mile run

nitsua60

@goodguy5 But at the end of my 5-mi run I'm five miles from home and am bored... don't want to take forever getting back =)

goodguy5

just run in a circle!

nitsua60

6:19 PM

Analemma, please. Don't want to overdevelop one hip.

goodguy5

@nitsua60 what about Emma? Seems inappropriate. please flag

Rubiksmoose

@goodguy5 I did that once (actually 3 times) for 24 hours. I do not recommend.

kviiri

@SirCinnamon Can't say no to some good comics

goodguy5

y'all mad lads in here. running for exercise. If I'm running there's either something in front of me or something behind me.

kviiri

@SirCinnamon Wow, that's cool

Distributed algorithms ftw!

Rubiksmoose

6:23 PM

@goodguy5 I have not run for a long while unfortaunately.

kviiri

A math high school near me has a biannual "math night" for students and alumni. I am neither, but they still let me come there because I wear my math jacket which makes me seem like I fit in

They have pechakucha presentations, I held one on the Byzantine Generals problem. A friend of mine arrived late to the party and missed my presentation and was disappointed to learn it wasn't even about actual military leadership of the Eastern Roman Empire.

The Byzantine Generals problem: There is an Emperor and N generals. Each General as well as the Emperor may be honest or dishonest. The Emperor gives a command (Attack/Retreat) to the Generals and the honest Generals must come to a consensus on whether to Attack or Retreat. In order to win, every honest General must decide the same way, and their decision must match the Emperor's will if the Emperor is honest.

All communications happen in synchronous, 100% reliable communications. However, each dishonest General or the Emperor can pass arbitrary false information in order to trick the honest side into losing.

Eg. if the Emperor's dishonest, they can tell some of the honest generals to Attack and others to Retreat, causing the honest generals to lose unless they have a system.

It's interesting, and has many uses in distributed systems where there can be arbitrarily malicious actors

David Coffron

@kviiri this is actually a fairly famous logic puzzle. Let's see if I can google-fu the original variant

GreySage

@kviiri So if the Emperor is dishonest, as long as the honest Generals agree they win?

Delioth

That's really cool

kviiri

@GreySage Yea

goodguy5

6:30 PM

Regarding this Question about Animal Companions

That seems like there's a stackable question hidden there

David Coffron

@GreySage they have to also agree with the null (the emperor's actual order)

kviiri

@DavidCoffron If the Emperor's dishonest, there's no "actual order", so they decide among themselves

Delioth

Can each of the generals (honest or not) be assumed to be able to send a message to any other general, or is there an assumed "hierarchy" or tree that messages must go through?

David Coffron

@kviiri hmm. Maybe it's a bit different from the logic puzzle I remember. The one I'm remembering has an impartial correct solution (and the trick is to figure out whether the first one to read the info is lying and if any subsequent passer of info is lying)

kviiri

@Delioth Yeah, direct communications that are 100% reliable and secure are assumed

So no message can be forged, lost, eavesdropped or intercepted

goodguy5

6:34 PM

@NautArch Would "How can I balance granting an animal companion to a Druid?" be stackable?

David Coffron

So this is a game, not a puzzle. I'm sitting here formalizing game states in my head...

@goodguy5 yes. As long as you are clear what you mean by balanced

Because strictly speaking, a druid with an animal companion is be stronger than the same one without (inbalanced)

kviiri

For a simple case, consider N = 2 so there's two generals and the Emperor, and try to think of a way to make the system impervious to one dishonest character. So if the Emperor's dishonest, the Generals must learn of it (in which case they can come to agreement on their own), and if one of the Generals is dishonest, the honest General must do what the Emperor told them to

David Coffron

Should probably also include options analyzed/tested that have been rejected and why

Delioth

@DavidCoffron I dunno, it seems like it's enough of a puzzle, though it might not be fully solvable. I haven't figured out if there's a reliable method of strictly weeding out who's an honest general and who's a dishonest general

Sir Cinnamon

@Delioth The goal isnt to weed out which generals are dishonest though

Just to reach consensus with the honest ones

David Coffron

6:37 PM

@Delioth feels a lot like the game Mafia where you are often waiting for someone to make a mistake (in some cases where the cop is killed early)

Sir Cinnamon

Mafia and similar games are sort of a good comparison actually

Rubiksmoose

@goodguy5 One of the big issues with the question is we have no idea what their conditions are to be considered for the animal.

Sir Cinnamon

Actually secret hitler might even be a better one, if youve played that

Delioth

@SirCinnamon If you know which generals are honest, then you have 2 options: A) The Emperor is Honest, and you all received the same order, so you agree to his will; or B) The Emperor is Dishonest, and it doesn't matter what your choice is as long as all honest generals act the same (so you can declare beforehand that in the case of a dishonest Emperor, we always Attack)

David Coffron

@SirCinnamon yeah. That's a great comparison too

goodguy5

6:39 PM

@Rubiksmoose then shouldn't it be "too broad" rather than pob?

David Coffron

@Delioth you don't know. You have to figure it out without being deceived by the dishonest parties

Sir Cinnamon

There is a mechanic in secret hitler where person A draws 3 random cards, mixed between red or blue. They discard one and pass 2 to person B, who discards one and shows what colour remains. Either person can lie about what they recieved, one can lie about what they passed

goodguy5

@SirCinnamon actually, I don't like secret hitler.

Sir Cinnamon

@goodguy5 Thematically or gameplay wise

Delioth

@DavidCoffron Which is why I reduced it above to "I can't figure out if there's a reliable way to weed out honest/dishonest generals"

Rubiksmoose

6:42 PM

@goodguy5 As written they are looking for straight up idea generation. Without boundaries or limitations that definitely falls into POB but I could see other closure reasons as well.

kviiri

@Delioth I can give you that there is, as long as they're rare enough

goodguy5

@SirCinnamon technically, both. but mostly gameplay-wise.

kviiri

And practically, finding out which actors (Generals + Emperor) are dishonest is either a step towards the solution or a byproduct of it

goodguy5

The mechanics are just a little off for me.

Which is odd because I can enjoy Werewolf (mafia), or coup

Sir Cinnamon

@goodguy5 I don't own the game, I only played a few rounds at a friends house months ago. I found it to be better than resistance/avalon or any wereowlf style games I had played

kviiri

6:44 PM

I personally think Secret Hitler is rather refreshing, but then again I am super bored of Resistance which was a staple of our student org's board game nights for about two years

goodguy5

@kviiri oh, yea. Resistance gets real old real quick

Delioth

Edge-case: the case where only 1 general is honest is trivial - the dumb actor which simply follows exactly the order he's given wins for the honest side (if the Emperor is honest, he came to a consensus among himself and followed the emprah's will; otherwise he just came to a consensus with himself)

kviiri

@goodguy5 Except when it didn't --- we had that ~same group of people playing it every time about monthly for about two years!

NautArch

@goodguy5 I think no. This is pure idea generation. To be stackable, I think they need to have spent time thinking about it and then developed a homebrew that we can review.

David Coffron

@Delioth 1 dishonest general is even more trivial. All honest generals (0) reach a consensus effortlessly

kviiri

6:47 PM

...then again, I wasn't usually a part of it.

Delioth

@DavidCoffron That's 1 honest general and N-1 dishonest generals - it doesn't matter how many there are

goodguy5

@kviiri yea, I think this is the main point here.

kviiri

@Delioth Haha, correct in a sense :)

David Coffron

@Delioth no. I mean 1 dishonest, 0 honest

goodguy5

I had a few friends in Chicago that loved playing Cards against Humanity and Munchkin and I hated it.

GreySage

6:49 PM

@DavidCoffron Any scenario with 0 honest generals is vacuously solved. The 0 generals always agree and win.

goodguy5

I'm good for about 1 Munchkin game per year. And I'd rather never play CaH again in my life.

Delioth

@DavidCoffron Oh, I know what you mean - I'm just saying that if HonestGenerals <= 1, the outcome is always good for the Honest general[s]

kviiri

@goodguy5 Oomfh. I think both are quite a bit overrated, yeah

@goodguy5 If you think CaH is bad, imagine the awkwardness of not being American and having some obscure pop culture reference in every other card :)

David Coffron

@goodguy5 I love munchkin but only because of all the house rules my family has added

GreySage

@goodguy5 CaH (AKA, Apples to Apples for people who want to think of themselves as cool and edgy) never appealed to me. My niblings love AtA, but it's just so boring and repetetive.

goodguy5

6:50 PM

@kviiri Just to have additional salt in the wound, it was always the same TYPES of people. "Oh, I'm such a nerdy geek. tee-hee. Look at these zany board games I play!". ugh

Sir Cinnamon

Any scenario where dishonest outnumbers honest is essentially unsolvable (IIRC...)

David Coffron

@goodguy5 ever played Fluxx though (or any of LooneyLabs' games?). Genuine fun

Delioth

@SirCinnamon Other than the edge case of honest=1 and honest=0, I think you may be right

kviiri

@goodguy5 haha

David Coffron

@SirCinnamon as long as honest >= 1

Sir Cinnamon

6:51 PM

@Delioth But there is no solution that works for those generals - they dont KNOW that honest=1

Delioth

@DavidCoffron Strictly >

goodguy5

@DavidCoffron I have played Fluxx. I want to enjoy it, but the only friend of ours that has it is.... uh.... well... she's very grating on the nerves. So it's hard to disassociate the two feelings.

kviiri

Yeah actually, Sir Cinnamon is right

David Coffron

@SirCinnamon yeah but eventually the 1 honest person tries something (even if imperfect strategy) and wins so every strategy wins

Delioth

@SirCinnamon The Dumb Actor model whereby any Honest General simply follows their orders works for that. It's a terrible strategy for any other version, but it is technically an approach that guarantees that case

David Coffron

6:53 PM

Oh wait. Unless the emperor is honest. Than the 1 could be deicived by the liars

goodguy5

alright. I have to move my desk

kviiri

Yeah, I see the point in a way, but the strategy doesn't work if the general doesn't know they're the only honest one (indeed it fails if they aren't)

Sir Cinnamon

That's not considered solved however

GreySage

@DavidCoffron Just add to your algorithm "After n! communications without a resolution, follow your orders".

Sir Cinnamon

because you cant break it into specific counts of honest/dishonest because that's not known info within the algorithm

kviiri

6:54 PM

So uh, I think I should specify that the generals should come up with a solution that works for as many numbers of dishonest actors as possible, without knowing the amount of dishonest actors in advance

Delioth

@kviiri Well yeah, we obviously need a better strategy for a more dynamic case - but it does solve one variation

kviiri

@Delioth Yeah, but it does solve that variation at the expense of every other variation, which leaves the strategy a bit... stale? :P

Rubiksmoose

Are there any general rules for constructs? They just define these per creature right?

David Coffron

@SirCinnamon the reason you break it into cases is to look for patterns in solutions to come up with a general case (where possible)

Delioth

@kviiri Though, it also solves every case where there's an honest Emperor as well... so it's >50% success rate

Sir Cinnamon

6:55 PM

@DavidCoffron But the "case" you describe isn't a case because it relies on unknown information

David Coffron

@Rubiksmoose yep. So the simulacrum change is mostly meaningless except for when effects fall out construct

Rubiksmoose

@DavidCoffron Cool just double checking lol

Which to be fair almost all healing spells do call it out.

Sir Cinnamon

its like "honest general A should ignore C and D because they are dishonest" works for the scenario where that's true but the scenarios are actually only divisble by the information the general receives

Like I, a general, have been told to attack by the emperor but generals B and C say to retreat

Delioth

@SirCinnamon As problem-solvers, we can use that information, as long as our solution can solve without that information

Sir Cinnamon

Did the emperor lie to me or are 2 generals lying to me?

kviiri

6:58 PM

I actually think there's no foolproof solution to N=2

But there's a rather simple one for three generals, one Emperor, with one traitor among them

Sir Cinnamon

@Delioth Unfairly knowing the answer, I can say that that is a dead end

kviiri

The problem with N=2, one traitor is that one intuitively gets into a sort of your word against mine situation. If one gets conflicting information from one actor, there's no way to make any meaningful distinction between them

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