TRPG General Chat

3:00 PM

@Rubiksmoose D&D is implausibly heroic fantasy, it's fine for what it is. The biggest problem is people using D&D for not-D&D concepts, just because it's the only system they know.

Adam

@Varis Freaking Bag of Beans, man....

SPavel

You want gritty fantasy? Maybe a game where atmospheric re-entry in the nude is survivable might not be for you.

Varis

@Adam Yeah, we could have had a beanstalk grow.....but no we got the mummy lord lair.......at level 4

Adam

I mean, you're not compelled to go inside it, are you?

You could just leave

Varis

When it was spawned we ran, but now that we have leveled up a little bit I have a decent idea on how to actually successfully kill it.....I think

@Adam it definitely isn't part of the storyline that my DM had setup for us but it would be a challenge rating 16 treasure trove, so it is rather compelling to do it

Rubiksmoose

3:11 PM

@SPavel I mean I think gritty or realism is not even what I'm going for. Sometimes it just makes it hard to RP or tell a story with the way the mechanic works.

SPavel

@Rubiksmoose D&D is not for RP or telling a story

Rubiksmoose

@SPavel That is 100% false lol.

SPavel

@Rubiksmoose Strongly disagree.

Rubiksmoose

@SPavel Why do you say that?

Adam

@SPavel Agreed

Rubiksmoose

3:14 PM

Firstly, what is a campaign if not a story?

Adam

https://www.reddit.com/r/mattcolville/comments/75kq30/dd_and_its_relationship_with_storytelling/do74fsh/

This is the post that convinced me

SPavel

Everything about D&D, from its pedigree as a wargame to its systematic destruction of non-combat rules, emphasizes that it is a game about killing and looting.

As soon as you get away from "I bury my hatchet in the orc's still-warm gooey brains" D&D awkwardly shuffles its feet and mumbles something about asking your DM.

KorvinStarmast

@Spavel My experiences with the game for over 40 years say otherwise, but killing and looting have remained a part of it.

SPavel

But if you want specific mechanics for a hand-axe vs a war-axe, we got ya covered

@KorvinStarmast You can use D&D to RP and tell a story, that doesn't change that fact that it's not for that

KorvinStarmast

@Spavel Not true. Original game had crafting rules and magic research rules that were actually pretty easy to follow.

SPavel

3:16 PM

@KorvinStarmast Crafting weapons and armor, researching better fireballs?

And incidentally, some other stuff, sure

KorvinStarmast

@SPavel I have no further time for tired, trite, and reductionist assertion which becomes an insult to people who play the game and make it more than a set of tules. Suggest you see the youtube video called "the map is not the territory" for another look at that.

Adam

It's interesting that you bring up Matt Colville since his position, last I heard him talk about it, is that D&D is not a collaborative storytelling game, and that there is nothing wrong with that.

KorvinStarmast

The nice thing about the current RPG landscape is that there are thousands of titles to choose from so most gaming tastes can probably be sated.

SPavel

I'm not sure why you believe that I am hating on D&D or the people who play it

KorvinStarmast

I find it puzzling that people spend so much time and energy crapping on D&D. Why the negative waves, Moriarty? There are so many choices.

SPavel

3:19 PM

I'm not crapping on anything

Adam

None of this is crapping on D&D.

SPavel

I love killing and looting

KorvinStarmast

I didn't say hating, I said insulting. Difference in words, difference in meaning, difference in intent.

SPavel

@KorvinStarmast You said crapping

Adam

We're not insulting D&D. We love D&D. But you can love the game and believe that it isn't primarily a storytelling game.

Rubiksmoose

3:20 PM

@SPavel It seems what everyone is trying to say that D&D is not good at storytelling. This is a completely different arguement from it not being intended to be for storytelling. More recent editions have explicitly said they intend for the game to be collaborative storytelling

SPavel

@Rubiksmoose The designers may have intended that, but I'm not sure that what they said and what they did match up.

KorvinStarmast

The story telling comes after the play experience... just as with real life. I can't tell you sea stories until I've been to sea.

Rubiksmoose

@SPavel That is my point exactly.

SPavel

@Rubiksmoose Not quite. I'm saying that the designers said "we make game for storytelling" and then made a game that is not for storytelling.

And I do want to draw a very thick line between "not intended for" and "not good at"

My Chemistry textbook is not intended for killing cockroaches

Rubiksmoose

@SPavel I don't think there is anybody who has any inkling of the RPG scene that would argue that D&D is the best or even among the best at story crafting, but the fact remains that is what it is attempting to be in spite, it seems, of it history.

Adam

3:23 PM

@Rubiksmoose I'm saying that if the goal of your game is to tell a story - the gameplay itself being about crafting a story - then you should look for something that isn't D&D. But if the goal of your game is to have fun going on an adventure, interacting with people, killing things, and looting, and you end up making up a story about that as you go along, then D&D is great. But just because you can connect what you did into a story does not mean that the game is about telling a story.

KorvinStarmast

Swords and Sorcery is a form of adventure story, and was the inspiration for the original attempt at making a wide open game within that genre. The attempt has been a success, regardless of how it has changed forms. I agree with your point that the wargaming roots are still evident.

SPavel

@Rubiksmoose Again though - I'm not saying that D&D is not good at story crafting. I'm not interested in whether or not it's good. I'm saying that despite the designers saying they wanted it to be about storytelling, they created a game that is (if you read the rules and not the hopes and dreams of its writers) not made for telling stories.

KorvinStarmast

@Adam The goal of the game is to have an adventure. You then tell the story after. How is that not story telling? Again I point you to real life: until you do something, you can't tell the story about what you did.

SPavel

Or at least, not telling stories outside of a very particular kind of story that begins with rolling initiative and ends with a pile of gold pieces on a table in a dimly lit tavern.

Rubiksmoose

@SPavel Well now we're getting into pure semantics. If I create a hammer for pounding nails but I make it out of butter I still made something to do something. It is just not going to achieve that.

SPavel

3:25 PM

@Rubiksmoose I don't think it's semantics, I think it's a very important distinction.

KorvinStarmast

@SPavel Back to reductionism, it appears. I just finished my second session in my brother's world where we are trying to recover grain and beer confiscatedfrom the area's farmers ... but I guess we can't have that adventure since you say so. Sorry, no, you are mistaken.

SPavel

@KorvinStarmast Wow, way to ignore everything I'm saying

Adam

@KorvinStarmast I played a D&D game where the goal was to tell a story. The players collaboratively came up with villains, foils, and plot points. The beginning, middle, and end were all planed out. We played that game and it sucked. It was the most miserable game of my life. If d&d was about crafting a story, then the game would have been making that story, and it would've been fun

Rubiksmoose

And, for the record, I'm not trying to defend D&D's honor or anything. I don't take criticism of D&D personally in any way. It just doesn't mesh with my experiences.

KorvinStarmast

@Adam Thanks for ignoring what I am saying.

doppelgreener

3:26 PM

Okay, I'm calling this discussion over.

Adam

I AM NOT IGNORING WHAT YOU ARE SAYING!

I'm done. None of us are getting anywhere. Believe what you want

SPavel

@KorvinStarmast I have literally never said that you cannot have a story told in D&D, or that D&D is bad at telling stories. In fact, I am explicitly drawing the distinction between that stance and my stance

Adam

goodbye

KorvinStarmast

I am giving the coin I have been offered, in change, good day to you gentlemen.

doppelgreener

@Adam Yes, that's unfortunate.

Rubiksmoose

3:28 PM

@doppelgreener Definitely. Sorry to have instigated it lol. I do think there is an interesting discussion to be had there

doppelgreener

@Rubiksmoose You've nothing to apologise for.

Yes, I agree, but in this instance, I think we can agree it broke down.

SPavel

Well, asserting that discussion of a game is a personal attack will do that.

Rubiksmoose

@doppelgreener Unsurprisingly, the reddit thread linked above broke down in much the same way.

SPavel

But for a less contentious topic, this cat:

KorvinStarmast

@nitsua60 Nits, I think that came in 1e, I'd need to check greyhawk to see if the + to any con bonus was in 0e. It may have. Don't have BX in dig form, I need to review that to see when the sea change happened.

Rubiksmoose

3:40 PM

rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/113735/… why didn't this get closed as unanswerable?

SPavel

@Rubiksmoose Be the change you want to see in the world

Rubiksmoose

@SPavel Well I'm fine with that, but also wondering why nobody else has. If I'm misunderstanding the closure policies

SPavel

@Rubiksmoose I try to avoid thinking too hard about why other users do things

This leads to madness

KorvinStarmast

@SPavel On that we can agree.

Rubiksmoose

@SPavel Embrace the madness.

KorvinStarmast

3:43 PM

Rubik, let me offer you an alternate view

Rubiksmoose

@KorvinStarmast sure hit me with it

SPavel

@Rubiksmoose I did, that's why I do what I do as a career.

But in my time off (or slacking off) I want to do not-that.

doppelgreener

@SPavel This is exactly the attitude for closing

KorvinStarmast

If dndwiki has that thing, or something like it, then "official or not" it is likely to be raised as a question by someone else since the internet is open to most everyone.

doppelgreener

"Why isn't this closed" --> nobody cast a close vote yet, and probably everyone else is wondering why nobody else is closing it

KorvinStarmast

3:44 PM

So the question may be helpful to someone.

Rubiksmoose

@SPavel hahaha well I definitely appreciate that. It was meant as an attempt at humor.

doppelgreener

Point of order though, that question did get answered -- accurately, too.

KorvinStarmast

Simply asking about home brew is not by default opinon based, but in this case it appars to be a case of home brew that is useful only to that table.

Rubiksmoose

@KorvinStarmast Do closed questions get deleted?

KorvinStarmast

And there was an answer that was helpful to at least 16 people.

doppelgreener

3:45 PM

... hm.

KorvinStarmast

@Rubiksmoose No.

doppelgreener

[closes, writes comment]

SPavel

@Rubiksmoose No, closed questions live on as an example

KorvinStarmast

Closed does not equal deleted.

SPavel

the related question is on-hold vs closed

Rubiksmoose

3:46 PM

@KorvinStarmast So then the closed question would stand as an answer to all those who come after it

SPavel

I think users can only hold, but a mod can close?

KorvinStarmast

The closed, and on hold notation, identify a question that often has a problem of fitting into the SE format.

Rubiksmoose

@KorvinStarmast It is the only right answer, but not the answer OP asked for right? He asked "how does this thing work" and the answer was "we don't know"

doppelgreener

I'm closing this as unclear on the basis we're missing information necessary to answer this properly -- we actually cannot tell you what a rope arrow is or what it does, since it does not exist in official material and we don't know what kind of rope arrow you have. Once you know anything about the source, we can better answer this -- but if you know the source we might not need to, on account of you'll be able to look up this information yourself. (Mainly though, I'm closing this because I don't want us to gather more "here's one version of a rope arrow..." answers.) — doppelgreener ♦ 28 secs ago

This is the weirdest unclear closure I've done in a long time.

Rubiksmoose

@doppelgreener thank you for saying things that I seem to be unable to articulate myself.

KorvinStarmast

3:49 PM

@doppelgreener but it makes perfect sense. (I mean your closure note)

doppelgreener

Closed questions only get deleted when they've got no positive score and no positively scored answers, and have sit untouched for a month. (After a year, questions with a score of 1 are also counted for deletion, but that's it.)

@KorvinStarmast It does. And yet it kind of doesn't. But it mostly does.

KorvinStarmast

heh, works for me.

doppelgreener

Same. It works. It's weird. But it works.

@Rubiksmoose No worries. I've had a lot more time to figure out the weird situations and what to say during them.

(and learned a lot from those also handling them)

Rubiksmoose

@doppelgreener I learn something new pretty much every day here :)

SPavel

@doppelgreener I've found that when someone is having trouble wording something, the best thing to do is ask them "what are you trying to say?" and then just have them write that down.

doppelgreener

4:00 PM

@SPavel haha, yes

KorvinStarmast

@Adam I went ahead and read the reddit thread. TieandWaistcoat's rebuttal made far more sense than the analytic approach (Coleville's) that was a critique of an element of the entire game experience. This appears to derive from a semantic argument and even frustration with a marketing scheme ...

Rubiksmoose

@KorvinStarmast reddit.com/r/mattcolville/comments/75kq30/… this was actually the one I like the most and made the most sense to me.

KorvinStarmast

@Rubiksmoose Are you familiar with the terms "the bones of the ox" ... it's an English colloquialism that may be falling out of usage.

Rubiksmoose

@KorvinStarmast I am not acually.

SPavel

@KorvinStarmast Certainly has fallen out of Google results

nitsua60

4:10 PM

@KorvinStarmast (I wasn't thinking so much of the mod as just the pace; I always think of my old 0e characters needing a week of R&R after any dungeon-delves!)

KorvinStarmast

I read it in one of Shippey's books about Tolkien, where he describes how you lose the essence of a bowl of ox tail soup if you focus on the bones of the ox used to make the soup

SPavel

@KorvinStarmast Are you telling me ox tail soup isn't made with ox tail?

KorvinStarmast

@nitsua60 Ah, yeah, gotcha. That also gave time for monsters to move it, or leave and take their treasure somewhere else

@Spavel No, I am not.

Rubiksmoose

@SPavel I'm taking this crap back then!

@KorvinStarmast Interesting! Makes sense

SPavel

@Rubiksmoose At the Holy Roman Empire Diner, no dish is what it is

KorvinStarmast

4:13 PM

Most soup made from scratch uses bones, in my experience, and what Shippey was doing in that extended metaphor may be closer to people now using "Missing the forest for seeing only the trees" or something like that.

nitsua60

@Varis We had one of those with my last AL party. We went ahead and planted it on the grounds of the small castle the Feldbaran dwarves built us, and we treat it like the X-Men's "war room." Anyone need some practice? Go grind on that mummy lord who re-spawns in the back yard every morning. (That bag of beans also got us a pair of treants who serve as the groundskeepers for the complex.)

Yuuki

@KorvinStarmast I don't think you use bones in oxtail soup.

KorvinStarmast

When I was a boy, and we lived in Germany, my mom would sometimes prepare ochsenschwanzsuppe. Ox tail soup.

Yuuki

Or at least, not in Chinese oxtail soup.

KorvinStarmast

I use bones in turkey and chicken soup, made from a carcass. Not sure what people do nowadays. I also use bones in my pinto beans, since I use a bone in ham steak in the bottom of the pot when I cook.

doppelgreener

4:15 PM

If you do want to resume that conversation, by the way, I won't stop y'all -- though I will need to have Tough Words briefly about what went wrong and what sent it off the rails so that the same can be avoided in the next try.

KorvinStarmast

We have been having cool weather, I may be making home made pinto beans this weekend.

SPavel

@doppelgreener The new conversation is about soup and beans, which I much prefer as it is significantly less salty

doppelgreener

@SPavel haha, that's quite fair

SPavel

You can make an excellent light broth with shrimp shells

KorvinStarmast

@doppelgreener I was trying to close the loop with Adam, to acknowledge a point he made in response to me that got lost in the mess. not really wanting to reopen worm can, better to open the soup can.

No, wait, we make our soup from scratch! No can!

doppelgreener

4:17 PM

@KorvinStarmast quite so

SPavel

@KorvinStarmast Canned soup is a great ingredient in casseroles

KorvinStarmast

Yeah, I was raised on such.

SPavel

1 can cream of mushroom soup, some noodles, canned tuna, you've got a good thing going

Rubiksmoose

@doppelgreener If others want to chip in I'll contribute but I'm not starting it up again lol. I think it is clear where the disagreements are and no amount of screaming over the internet will reconcile those differences. And that is ok.

@SPavel Very well said.

Isn't a lot of broth made with bone marrow?

KorvinStarmast

I still have an original recipe from Mom with rice, chicken breasts (bones in) and Campbell's golden mushroom soup. I still make it now and again.

SPavel

4:19 PM

Poached chicken also leaves behind a good broth (pro tip, place chicken in the water and then start heating it, it becomes evenly cooked)

KorvinStarmast

Speaking of home recipes, my son made a few batches of molasses sugar cookies for my daughter's wedding reception, using an old family recipe, that he had modified. He added butter for half of the shortning ... and they were an immense hit.

SPavel

birthmoviesdeath.com/2018/01/18/…

KorvinStarmast

@SPavel Yeah, my wife prefers we poach thighs as it makes the soup more flavorful ..

And then there is Depression Era soup called "Wiener Water Soup" which is what is left in the pot after you have boiled hot dogs in a sauce pan. Not as good as chicken soup.

SPavel

@KorvinStarmast Damn, that's almost as depressing as "axe soup"

KorvinStarmast

@SPavel nice link. awesome. Like Wiz of Oz and Dark side of the moon, but better.

Randomorph

4:23 PM

Regarding the whole "Storytelling" thing around D&D: Can people tell me what a "Storytelling" game means to you? I think that might clear up some of the confusion. Don't use anything specific to any game. What elements make a game a "Storytelling" game?

KorvinStarmast

@Randomorph The distinctions being made in that reddit thread suggest to me that there isn't a universal definition. That appears to be part of the problem.

SPavel

@Randomorph I like what Mouseguard does.

Randomorph

@SPavel could you elaborate on specific mechanics, not systems?

SPavel

It has a simple conflict resolution mechanism that is simple and can be applied to different kinds of conflicts.

Randomorph

Partially because I'm unfamiliar, also partially so everyone can get on board with what specific mechanics you're referring to

SPavel

4:26 PM

It avoids the flaws of FATE where one can be at a loss for what to do because of the large degree of freedom

KorvinStarmast

@Spavel do you think that Microscope was a good example?

SPavel

@KorvinStarmast I don't know that one

KorvinStarmast

OK, Coleville cited it as an example, albeit maybe a limited example.

Randomorph

Again, can we focus on specific mechanics not systems. Not everyone is familiar with every system, and even then, they might not know exactly which parts of it you are referencing.

Pavel has said "simple conflict resolution [that is widely applicable]" as one example

SPavel

@Randomorph The complete conflict resolution mechanics appear on the back of the character sheet

I think that one is actually Burning Wheel, which Mouseguard is based on

and is a little more complex

Randomorph

4:30 PM

@SPavel to be fair, many systems have simple conflict resolution mechanics, but they may get bogged down by the modifiers to that system.

SPavel

@Randomorph The great thing is that there's ONE mechanic

Randomorph

D&D is simple. Roll d20, add your bonus, compare to Target. In a contest, both roll d20 and add modifiers, and highest wins. But there's a lot of complexity around bonuses advantage/disadvantage

SPavel

There's no separate game depending on which subsystem is plugged into your guy

Randomorph

It is one mechanic, but it has a fair bit of nuance from what I can see.

SPavel

D&D's core resolution mechanic is perfectly fine for modeling all kinds of things, but compare making a full attack against a monster vs a skill check to overcome an obstacle.

Rubiksmoose

4:32 PM

For me, a storytelling game is one that has a set of rules that all agree on and defined roles and powers for all involved. The rules should enable people to contribute to and experience a story together with each making contributions if they wish in their own way and have the freedom to make significant impacts to the story. (off the top of my head)

nitsua60

@Randomorph Be careful--that's a good, concise description of only a couple of the ~10 versions of D&D that are out there.

Randomorph

@nitsua60 yes correct, I'm referring to 5e D&D from here on out, if I say D&D

SPavel

I actually like the simplicity of "roll under" and you could use that to build a great simple resolution mechanic.

Randomorph

@SPavel roll d20, add modifier, compare to target.. It's the same for both. I might be missing what you feel is different?

SPavel

@Randomorph Roll under doesn't have a target. Success is based on your character's attributes alone.

It's a little silly, but I am also a little silly

Randomorph

4:34 PM

@SPavel I was referring to your previous message "compare making a full attack against a monster vs a skill check to overcome an obstacle."

nitsua60

@Randomorph I'd suggest that's somewhere on the annoying-problematic-difficult-insulting scale for at least some people in the room and ask that you consider devoting the 2 extra characters to being specific. Or even save yourself a character by saying "5e" rather than "D&D."

SPavel

@Randomorph Ah. What I meant was the complexity built up around the d20 roll.

Randomorph

I am familiar with roll under, and I briefly worked with it in developing a TTRPG, but found it ultimately added more complexity than it saved.

SPavel

There's so much more involved in the attack (a separate kind of action, multiple rolls, multiple defenses, damage vs HP, rider effects, retributive effects) than in the skill (maybe you get a modifier and maybe there's several checks that need to be made idk)

KorvinStarmast

@SPavel We were using roll under for ability based checks in 1e before it became a formal thing.

Randomorph

4:36 PM

If you have no modifiers in a roll under system, there is no way for the environment or outside influences to impact your success. If you add in modifiers, you've made the system just as complex as a roll over system with modifiers

SPavel

Modeling things as a Conflict is simple and satisfying

@Randomorph I'm not convinced that the environment needs to impact my success.

KorvinStarmast

@SPavel Depends on the level of simulation one is after, or versimilitude

Randomorph

@nitsua60 I mean no offense to anyone. I will try to remember to use the full name or simply 5e (although this is problematic as it could refer to the 5th edition of many systems)

SPavel

@KorvinStarmast Indeed. Personally, I care very little about that kind of thing.

KorvinStarmast

@Spavel I think that's one of those "hard to argue about taste" kind of things.

Randomorph

4:38 PM

@SPavel there isn't any more involved than the Mousguard sheet you sent. I can see four different mechanics you need to be familiar with: Attack, Defense, Feint, Maneuver. You also have a number of different skills that modify each of those depending on the circumstance.

nitsua60

@Randomorph Thanks.

Rubiksmoose

@SPavel Could you help me understand something? How would a roll under system handle a character attempting to do something that was impossible to do?

KorvinStarmast

Why would you roll for that?

doppelgreener

@Rubiksmoose ...can't roll under 0? :D

KorvinStarmast

If it can't be done it seems to me pointless to roll

Rubiksmoose

4:39 PM

@KorvinStarmast The character might not know it is impossible

doppelgreener

(not a property unique to roll-under though... can't roll over the maximum on a dice either :D)

Randomorph

@SPavel regarding the environment not affecting you or not.. Well we want to model very different types of challenges and stories then.

KorvinStarmast

@Rubiksmoose "you can try, you are not guaranteed success" can fit a lot of situations, like asking that girl in 10th grade out for a date.

doppelgreener

@Rubiksmoose But if the players and GM know it's impossible, nobody might roll. (It's not the character doing the rolling.)

SPavel

@Rubiksmoose It wouldn't.

Randomorph

4:40 PM

I agree with not rolling for the impossible. But what about the improbable?

doppelgreener

That requires something like director stance though; actor stance would have the GM asking the players to roll for impossible things.

Rubiksmoose

@doppelgreener Right, I'm just trying to figure out how it differs from 5e's DCs I guess

doppelgreener

(actor vs director stance being covered here in brief)

SPavel

There are two solutions to known impossible actions: the players have a mutual understanding of what is possible, or the DM shuts it down.

Randomorph

@Rubiksmoose in my experience with roll under, it doesn't. The math is more or less the same, just inverted. It's different, and solves different problems slightly better, but also has problems with some stuff roll over finds easy.

KorvinStarmast

4:41 PM

@Rubiksmoose It is worth noting that 5e DC's are DM assigned, not fixed. @doppelgreener Thanks for the link ...

SPavel

For unknown impossible actions, the DM shuts it down and the players gain knowledge.

So there is a component of "what are you allowed to roll for"

Randomorph

@KorvinStarmast that's not different than Roll Under if the environment or circumstance can affect your check.

SPavel

5e brings up this component, but doesn't do a good job dealing with it.

doppelgreener

Fate being my mainstay means I'm usually playing in Director stance, myself.

(It's a lot of fun.)

Randomorph

@SPavel can you explain what aspect of "Don't roll for the impossible, or the trivial" you feel D&D5e fails t?

Rubiksmoose

4:43 PM

@SPavel ok this makes sense. So there is definitely DM setting some sort of limits then. So kind of like DCs. Interesting

SPavel

@Randomorph it fails to define, to my satisfaction, what impossible or trivial means.

NautArch

@SPavel That's...up to the DM.

Randomorph

@SPavel so you want rules to define that? How is that better in your mind?

SPavel

In a number of cases, the math for "trivial" is not at all trivial, nor the math for "impossible" all that impossible.

I want rules in a rules-heavy system to provide consistency to inter-table discourse.

5e does not do this. I don't think it really intended to do this.

Rubiksmoose

@SPavel From memory, I believe by this you mean that you prefer as a player to know the target for success ahead of time as opposed to having the DM adjudicate it. Correct?

SPavel

4:44 PM

@Rubiksmoose No

nitsua60

for me--I don't know how many of these really are definitional vs. just "stand-out"
1. player role symmetry. I.e. all players contribute in the same way (mechanised) to the setting/plot, vs. the "player-GM divide" that many games see.
2. fluid connections between players and characters may exist in ways you don't usually see in D&D-likes. This certainly isn't *necessary,* but I've seen it in what I think of as story-games in ways that don't really appear in the D&D-likes.
3. struggling with how to word this one... an explication at the outset that the activity of the group is to create a st…

Randomorph

It's left up to DM discretion, where Common Sense takes dominion. Can you jump over the mountain in a single bound? No. Will you actually fail to tie your shoelaces? No.

SPavel

I don't care whether or not the target is known, I care that the scope of the possible is shared.

"Jump over the mountain" is an extreme that is easy to agree on.

"Wrestle the dragon" is somewhat more contentious. So is "wrestle the peasant." We again come back to Conflicts.

NautArch

I agree that the harder case isn't is it trivial/impossible, but in how to make an obstcle more interesting than a single DC check (monsters are beat by a single roll)

SPavel

I would not be against letting a PC jump over a mountain, in a lot of games.

Randomorph

4:46 PM

@SPavel and how does Roll Under address your dragon wrestling conundrum?

SPavel

@Randomorph It doesn't.

nitsua60

@Randomorph Clearly you're going for a leg-takedown.

Rubiksmoose

@Randomorph Yeah I guess I am back to being confused again.

nitsua60

<rimshot.wav>

SPavel

These are two separate assertions.

Rubiksmoose

4:47 PM

I see benefits to both roll over and roll under and I can't really say I see any huge implications to using either.

Randomorph

@Rubiksmoose that's more or less my understanding, but Roll Over seems a bit more intuitive and flexible in practice to me

SPavel

"Roll-under your own character's ability score is a simple, interesting method for resolving success, which needs to be tempered by a shared understanding of when it is appropriate to roll" and "5e is bad at telling people when it's appropriate to roll for things"

nitsua60

@Rubiksmoose People, on average, are objectively worse at subtraction. If one of them employs subtraction, avoid it.

Randomorph

@SPavel I could replace Roll-Under with Roll-Over and have the same assertion.

doppelgreener

Y'all may want to distinguish between "roll under as a mechanism" versus "specific systems that use roll-under" (and name them) or specific design choices or features that exist in those systems. From a design perspective, the only difference between roll-over and roll-under in and of itself is which directions numbers work in.

Randomorph

4:49 PM

@nitsua60 exactly why Roll-Over has been more intuitive in my experience

SPavel

@Randomorph let me be more specific.

nitsua60

@doppelgreener Lasers&Feelings much?

=D

doppelgreener

@nitsua60 I don't understand that, sorry!

Rubiksmoose

And in the context of the larger discussion, I have yet to hear how any particular rolling mechanism is any better or worse for storytelling besides simple preference.

Randomorph

@Rubiksmoose we are in agreement there.

doppelgreener

4:50 PM

@nitsua60 Aha, yes, the fabulous roll-over-and/or-under system

SPavel

By "roll under" I mean "the mechanic of rolling a d20 whereby you have a bell curved ability score ranging from 3 to 18." It is interesting to me because it connects ability score to success quickly and easily, without an external difficulty bar.

When you start to add THAC0 and modifiers and other shenanigans, it gets murky.

Randomorph

@SPavel but it disconnects success from environment and circumstance.

SPavel

@Randomorph We just had this conversation.

That's why it is interesting to me.

nitsua60

@doppelgreener (I feel like L&F is a nice demonstration of the inherent sameness of -under and -over systems. When they're actually built the same way, that is. I, like you I think, suspect there may be some bleed between "roll-[over|under] does this" and "many systems that use roll-[over|under] do this.")

Rubiksmoose

Yup we're circling back on ourselves. @SPavel really like roll-under and that is absolutely fine! But I don't think there is any point to us searching for a reason that either is objectively better because, as I understand it, there isn't any.

nitsua60

4:52 PM

@SPavel Whoa, that's a very small subset of "roll-under" systems.

SPavel

In a story where a spiked pit is a spiked pit and a nazi with a pistol is a nazi with a pistol, the circumstance is not as interesting to me as the actual event that happens.

Randomorph

@SPavel yes, and you don't feel it's important. I am just bringing attention to that fact. You can tie in circumstance and environment again, but then it's the same level of complexity as a roll-over system. If you prefer roll-under that is fine, I have no objection to the system, and think it can be interesting to.
My issue is that you initially used it as a point in favour of a storytelling game, when semantically it's the same thing.

SPavel

When it's a level 12 Gruppensturmfuhrer with a +5 MP42, that's another story

if you want to tell an Indiana Jones story, well, we rarely see the latter.

Randomorph

@Rubiksmoose I agree, Roll over vs Roll under is a wash. The only difference is what the Target is. You can have roll over and a hardcoded target based on attribute as well

nitsua60

Is it GURPS that (famously) has roll-under skills that (a) operate on d100 and (b) level up (or make progress to leveling up) on failure?

Randomorph

4:54 PM

Eg, some systems use d100, Target = 100, which you add your full (1-100) stat to your roll, succeeding on 100 or more

mathematically, it's identical to roll under. I think the crux of your actual issue with roll over @SPavel is probably the amorphousness of targets, in your eyes. Is that correct?

SPavel

Also it makes the DM's job easier - Han Solo vs Asteroid Field. The field doesn't need stats! It's an obstacle, Han Solo overcomes it because he is a hero.

The TIE pilots fail and die because they are not.

Rubiksmoose

@SPavel Now THIS example makes sense to me.

SPavel

The math isn't interesting to me in a storytelling context

But I love to spend hours building math machines in 3.5

NautArch

Iron Kingdoms had a pretty good mechanic for doing things - it just seemed fairly complex in terms of looking up tables and figuring out what you want to do and how hard it is.

nitsua60

@SPavel (But one's got to make it through. Because that provides the opportunity for someone other than Han to take care of a TIE fighter.)

Randomorph

4:56 PM

@SPavel right, but in a "Dm sets target" system, the DM can also account for harder asteroid fields to navigate. D&D5e has a set scale of what's considered hard or not.

GreySage

@SPavel This makes sense, and I get it, but it also seems HORRIBLY simplistic and repetitive the play a game with the exact same stakes every time. To me anyway.

Rubiksmoose

@SPavel But, in D&D say, DM complexity really doesn't detract from storytelling does it? It just increases some of the workload a bit?

Maximillian

Iron Kingdoms really wanted to be 2d6+number vs. target.

Randomorph

@GreySage agreed. Circumstance is highly important to me in games. It makes things interesting to me

NautArch

@Maximillian it was dtermining the target via the tables that got complicated

Randomorph

4:57 PM

@Rubiksmoose agreed, I'm not sure how this relates to a Storytelling based game

doppelgreener

@nitsua60 Right. Roll-over and -under fundamentally work the same, just have different-looking executions.

NautArch

OUtside coming in question: HOw are we defining storytelling?

nitsua60

@doppelgreener (except it's much easier to cheat when you roll under the table than over)

Rubiksmoose

@NautArch We haven't! well some of us gave our preferences but then we quickly diverged into side topics because we are good at this!

@nitsua60 Fantastic.

doppelgreener

Randomorph

4:59 PM

@nitsua60 #1 seems understandable, but then that's also making the insinuation that Dm run games aren't particularly story based, which I'm sure many would find objectionable.
#2 Can you elaborate on this point?
#3 You can make those decisions regardless of system. Some systems might push it more in the literature, but a Session 0 can cover the exact same things, and be system agnostic.

nitsua60

@NautArch That exact conversation starts here, then rapidly starts wandering like my 5yo in the grovery store:

36 mins ago, by Randomorph

Regarding the whole "Storytelling" thing around D&D: Can people tell me what a "Storytelling" game means to you? I think that might clear up some of the confusion. Don't use anything specific to any game. What elements make a game a "Storytelling" game?

Rubiksmoose

27 mins ago, by Rubiksmoose

For me, a storytelling game is one that has a set of rules that all agree on and defined roles and powers for all involved. The rules should enable people to contribute to and experience a story together with each making contributions if they wish in their own way and have the freedom to make significant impacts to the story. (off the top of my head)

Transcript for