TRPG General Chat

12:38 AM

Mornin' all

Novian

Mornin.

@Magician morning? it's drinkin' time :P

(though sadly not for me, gotta go pick up some milk yet)

@waxeagle ...I don't see the contradiction

@Magician good point.

1:32 AM

Is anyone here familiar with AW/DW/tremulus? Wealth didn't make any sense in the latter, so I wrote up a couple moves to earn and spend it. There's nothing exciting about them, but I'm wondering if there are any potential problems.

Oblivious Sage

sounds like a good actual question

Hm. I dunno, this is essentially "look at my homebrew", I was under the impression these questions weren't really welcome.

@BrianBallsun-Stanton what's the official position?

1:50 AM

@Magician ask on meta

Q: Homebrew evaluation questions

2:03 AM

done

The Oracle

2:52 AM

1

What's the stance on asking for feedback on house-ruled material? In my particular case, I wrote a couple of generic moves for tremulus (they can probably be extended to AW/DW), changing the wealth system, and wanted to ask if the community could spot any potential pitfalls with them.

discussion

4:24 AM

So, could I persuade someone here to help me hammer out some story stuff for a Scion game heavily twining with Norse myth?

[Pokes @BESW and @BrianBallsun-Stanton just in case]

4:38 AM

@Lord_Gareth I'll bite. Don't know much about Scion, though.

4:57 AM

@Magician Yay!

Thankfully you only really need to know things about modern Earth (god I hope so) and Norse mythology. Knowledge of the system wholly unneeded

@Lord_Gareth So, tell me about your story.

I only have a basic one-sentence concept at the moment that I'm hoping to sketch out. Going more for theme than fidelity. With that in mind: Jormungund, the Midgard Serpent, wishes to avoid his fate at Ragnarok and secure for himself a place to live where he will be left alone by men and Gods. To this end he conspires (tensely) with the player characters to twist a scheme of his father's to his own ends.

Definitely want this to be a tense relationship between the players and the World Serpent, who cannot necessarily be trusted.

Sadly that's /all/ I have, other than a vague idea that Loki's scheme has to already relate to Ragnarok in order to be twisted

Would PCs know who they're working for from the start?

At the moment the PCs are engaged in another plot. Jormungund would contact them directly, probably while they're dreaming. His hope is that bargaining openly will make them more willing to deal with him. One of them is the daughter of Thor and he's hoping to persuade her by offering her father's life; the World Serpent is fated to slay Thor, after all

5:14 AM

Ok, so far that sounds like a fairly standard "dodgy employer who will inevitably betray us" plot device.

With the twist that he's not going to betray anyone...on purpose, anyway. Jormungund has this big obvious button that's sort of A Problem, insofar as if he's dug up and unleashed he'll go berserk and he knows it

He can only bargain in good faith as long as he's imprisoned; if he's set free, he'll die

And then there's the complication of Loki, since the World Serpent's scheme requires the players to match wits with the wily God and come out on top

Which in general doesn't happen

Not a lot no.

Oblivious Sage

Loki outwits himself pretty regularly, though.

In fact, trying to dodge fate typically leads to its self-fulfillment.

Oblivious Sage

5:19 AM

True. Jormungund is an old plot.

Heh

Either way I'm looking to play /up/ the idea that while the Aesir are generally heroic they genuinely screwed up with how they treated Loki's two monstrous children.

Fenris they betrayed. Jormungund never even got to know their friendship enough for /that/

And now with the chips /about/ to fall their children are being given a chance to maybe make things right and balance the scales without having to watch everything die.

@Lord_Gareth Which, again, was a self-fulfilling prophecy.

Pretty much. Ragnarok is supposed to be the time when all the debts are repaid and washed clean in blood and fire.

Obviously the children of the gods are not big fans of this idea.

Is Vidarr in the party?

Because he ought to be, if you want to emphasize children of gods

5:23 AM

No. Modern children of the gods (premise of Scion)

Plus, umm...

Vidarr is sorta "the gods" as far as groupings go

Some of Thor's older children too (Magni, Modi, and Thrud)

Sure, but he survives Ragnarok because he's the next generation of gods.

Fit to live in the new world

Aye, but right now the PCs aren't gods. They're heroes, still more mortal than divine

Ok. Given that, though, it becomes about reconciliation (or not) between NPC gods and NPC children of gods, which is problematic.

Maybe I should outline a few things. A-hem: Scion postulates modern children of Gods and mortals. These offspring are Scions, Capital S. They're born more mortal than divine and have the potential for true apotheosis.

Heroes start out fighting the battles on Earth, doing vital tasks and defending the innocent while the war between the various gods and their predecessors rages in other worlds

As Demigods they move into adjacent dimensions - places like Mag Mell, Jotunheim, Atlantis - and fight the battle for the human soul

And then as Gods they join the true and proper war for all of reality

This plotline should, when I'm done, take things from stage one (heroes) to stage three (gods)

gotta go, bedtime

g'night!

11:27 AM

Wow, not many people in chat.

@BESW I'm here :P

Oh, hi.

@waxeagle What's new?

@BESW not too much. adding additional logging to our invoicing system. Boss's last day before a week of vacation...

11:50 AM

Cool enough.

@BESW yep. makes up for the fact that two of my big projects are just flat stuck right now. One with the stakeholders and the other with my boss.

Ouch.

@BESW they are both in the 80-90% complete range and have been for a while. The one that's stuck with the stakeholders, I finally heard from them earlier this week. The one stuck with my boss probably won't go anywhere for another couple of weeks

Urf. That's a bad feel.

I'm trying to figure out how to start out this FAE game.

1:04 PM

[toys with Discourse]

@BESW I'm intrigued by it, but my time is already almost fully wasted...

mmm. Problematic has set up a Discourse forum for us to run the FAE game in.

@BESW ooh interesting

discourse.problematic.io/t/enchanted-forest/3

Q: When does a power count as an attack?

@waxeagle and @Soulrift

0

Apparently, in D&D 4e, whether a power is an attack or not is mechanically important. Some game features, like feats, single out attacks from other powers. I thought it was straightforward, but apparently not, because an attack isn't an attack just because it says "Attack" in the top right-hand ...

dnd-4e powers attack

1:09 PM

There we go, I think I got Discourse to behave a little bit.

Learning as I go!

@JonathanHobbs Where, or from whom, do you "keep hearing there are other conditions"?

rpg.stackexchange.com/q/17025/1204 rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/25433/…

I guess maybe it's only an attack if it has a target line? But then lay on hands is an attack. Unless it has to have an "Attack" bit in the top right AND ALSO have a target line.

Personally, I always felt that 4e's philosophy is that "It's something if it says so, otherwise it's not that thing."

Flurry of Blows isn't an attack, and it can't be without breaking the class so hard it'd make 3.5 monks better too.

[Hyperbole drives engaged, Captain!]

@BESW Holy cow. Flurry of Blows would chain off itself if it were an attack.

@JonathanHobbs and it's no action which means that it's not limited by the free action economy

Joshua Aslan Smith

hello all

1:23 PM

@JoshuaAslanSmith g'morn

@waxeagle You dun typos in the description of Direct the Strike

@JonathanHobbs wtf is a warlork

typing too fast...

@waxeagle I don't know but I want to play one

@JonathanHobbs brb gonna go develop a lazylordlock

Warlord/warlock? A warlord who is a dork? A warlock pronounced in a strange accent?

1:26 PM

a lazylord warlock hybrid would be horribad

I'm pretty sure orcs have something to do with it.

@waxeagle ::shudder::

unless there is some way to grant allies curse damage...but you'd need another warlock in the party probably

yeah... curse isn't a striker damage that plays well with other

don't we have a question about this?

@BrianBallsun-Stanton we had the party of warlocks question

Q: Does Flurry of Blows count as an attack?

1:28 PM

8

This handbook suggests that Flurry of Blows is an attack when recommending the otherwise extremely underwhelming malec-keth janissary: Malec-Keth Janissary (Swordmage-MoP)- Add extra damage to all attacks. As this can be thunder damage, it can be combined with Resounding Thunder. I also bel...

dnd-4e monk

yeah, I thought I asked about FoB

Hurmph. There goes my attempts to keep my player's monk from destroying the world in a single round.

@BESW uh, there was a level... 16 DPR king build called arrow?

I think?

WTF, avenger as higher?

He had some kind of CA/SA/FoB weirdness he was trying to pull.

oh. SA is... odd cause 1/turn

@BESW FoB is still capped at 1/round

1:31 PM

turn :)

Arrow just... um

FoB is normally capped at 1/round (and only on monk's turn), while SA is 1/turn, but both can be gotten around.

Twin Strike + FoB is just... no

@BESW it's quite hard to get around SA's 1/turn

@BrianBallsun-Stanton the AP feat is the only way I know of right off hand

likewise

and nova is nova and we ignore it

@BrianBallsun-Stanton So Flurry of Blows, which is a Monk Feature and not a Monk Attack, counts as an Attack?

1:33 PM

I honestly have to check the asnwers to my question

oh, that was... me

Do you know how many extra feats and features this opens up?

I watched my player go through countless iterations that were all backed up by "not an attack."

Original source: wizards.custhelp.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/1396

Wait.... if any power that deals damage is an attack...

> Can a Warlock benefit from holding two rods? Yes, a warlock can gain the properties from two rods but he still can only use one to make an attack.

Awesome.

@BESW no. has to have target line and deal damage by the definition.

1:34 PM

ugh, I need to re-read 38 again

uuuuugh.

@BrianBallsun-Stanton I can't actually find anything related to your answer in there! Maybe it isn't an attack.

well, that thread certainly suggests it is.

but... ugh

community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/25890329/…

where it's debated in the usual fashion

monk is PHB 3 right?

@waxeagle yes.

soo glad I don't play 4e any more

1:36 PM

> If a power's type isn't stated, the power is an attack power if it includes an attack roll or if it deals damage. Otherwise, it is a utility power. [RC p90]

had an excellent game of Ars Magica tonight

whee

That... is irrelephant to FoB because FoB states its power type.

It is a class feature that has targets and deals damage.

class features may or may not be powers

The Online Character Builder prints FoB power cards that clearly label it "Monk Feature."

yes, compendium labels it as monk feature. But monk feature may not... exist...

1:38 PM

> Attack powers that have a target line and deal damage are attacks (See: Magic Missile). Ergo, Flurry of Blows is an attack.<sup>[citation needed]</sup>

Aw, sup doesn't work here

But Flurry of Blows isn't an attack power.

(necessarily)

Supitchoor code?

Dohoho

well, okay, my argumentation is that arrow is still at the almost top of DPR king 3.0

hmmm PHB3 is no help at all here, mayhaps PP will help

which means that community consensus has been unable to nerf this though useful argument

1:40 PM

@JoshuaAslanSmith oh. I think I declining not knowing who it was. ^^ I'm such an idiot.

@BESW Wow really?

@BrianBallsun-Stanton What's the Latin for "argument through the stupidity of large groups"?

@BESW democracy? :)

darn the copy of PP i may or may not have in possession isn't OCR'd

so this really does boil down to "what is a power?"

1:41 PM

@BrianBallsun-Stanton In terms of philosophical logic.

@BESW Does "X Feature" count as naming its power type?

@JonathanHobbs See Brian's point above.

@BESW there is none.

ooh new question, is Combat superiority a feature or an attack power?

What am powr?

1:41 PM

well, I'm using the idea of precedent here

@waxeagle Combat Superiority is the same thing as whatever FoB is, I think.

if the depressingly argumentitive forums use it as if it was a power, articulate those things, and those articulations have stood for a year and have been incorporated into a build, the community believes this, and can be used in general rulings

scuse me Combat Agility is the one I want. and it's labeled "fighter attack"

@BrianBallsun-Stanton A thing with a title box that has various lines. You use them. The title box is grey or green or red. This is horrible to examine and define 8D

@JonathanHobbs yes!

1:42 PM

Mornin' @BESW, @BrianBallsun-Stanton

:;hugs ars magica::

we deal with actual philosophy there. Like "does this plant make this genii explode?"

Hey, a random upvote for my Gandalf answer. Huh.

and "are the walls people?"

@Lord_Gareth Hi.

@BrianBallsun-Stanton Oh my god :D

1:43 PM

@JonathanHobbs but yeah, basically it's "it's listed under powers in DDI, has target, and damage... so... is a power?"

@BrianBallsun-Stanton I have to know how that actually comes up as a pertinent question

which isn't actually stating that it is a power.

@BESW - So I don't suppose I can bushwhack you to help me hammer out a plot for a Scion game?

@JonathanHobbs Can I sleep in this bed? Oh my gods it's made out of genii.

@Magician ping?

Noooot really. Especially not while the sun is down.

1:44 PM

@BESW that is the conclusion that most of my group came to.

@BrianBallsun-Stanton He was helping me last night T_T Sadly I had to bedtime

@Lord_Gareth what?

Oh. For some insane reason I thought you pinged Magician on my behalf

MAH BAD

why couldn't the PHBs been as awesome as the power books? there is so much more life in the power books...The PHBs have a page on the class and 10000 powers, the power books have 4ish pages no every class

@waxeagle yes.

So yeah, in terms of FoB "Yes, it's an attack power. Please don't abuse it?"

1:46 PM

@BrianBallsun-Stanton Listed under powers in DDI! And it's an attack power if: it says "Attack" and has a target line, OR doesn't say what it is (not a feature, utility, attack, etc) and has a target line AND damage line.

doesn't help the rules argument at all (no clarification...), but it's good reading

0.86 KPR is just no.

@JonathanHobbs Yes.

So it's not an attack by definition, but it is by categorization?

@BrianBallsun-Stanton No it says it's a Monk Feature. Feature might be a power type. Therefore, it DOES NOT fall under the default handling of: "If it has no type, it's an attack if it has a target line and a damage line, otherwise it's a utility."

@BESW precident?

1:47 PM

(Or did we circle through that already?)

@JonathanHobbs ok?

@JonathanHobbs well, the problem is that there's no such thing as a class feature.

@BrianBallsun-Stanton What?

@JonathanHobbs it's not a "thing"

@BrianBallsun-Stanton Except for the part where it is.

which is kind of unfortunate, really.

@BESW well, yes.

De jure, not a thing. De facto, a thing. Which means that we look to precedent to sort it out...

1:49 PM

Because you're right, it has no definitional existence.

But look! There it is!

Yes.

but we also have "class attack" powers as well

with no level

@waxeagle Yes, but in essentials they're...

that's actually handleed as a specific thing.

@BESW Doesn't it have definitional existence in the bit where it says a character gets all their class features, in addition to their powers?

An power with no level cannot be chosen normally, but is a power.

1:50 PM

@JonathanHobbs That implies that Class Features are not powers.

@BESW are not powers that do powery stuff.

Which then gets into de facto/de jure problems.

Oh! It's the bit somewhere that says since they're powers with no level specified, they don't take up any level slots and therefore you get them automatically.

The problem is that the system treats many class features as powers of the "Feature" type (alongside Attack and Utility).

but some class features grant powers

@Zachiel yes, that too.

the normal pattern is that class features grant exceptional powers.

1:51 PM

Sigh.

(in the technical sense, not superlative)

**** 4e

@Zachiel oh, no, you're not allowed to say that :)

You know, as much as I love Essentials, in execution it makes the idea to turn 3.0 into 3.5 look good.

@BESW yes.

4e is, in general, an exceptional (superlative) tactical system.

1:52 PM

I'm not allowed to put four asterisks in a row? (I don't know if there's a filter, I manually wrote 4 stars)

It is not written by lawyers nor philosophers.

@Zachiel no filter, just flaggers :P

@Zachiel The sentiment you expressed is....

I want a game that works

@Zachiel Excellent! ::hands over a copy of Ars Magica 5th ed::

1:53 PM

Not a game that opens endless discussions over the rules while playing

now, define what works.

as opposed to my last statement

well, what do you mean discussions over the rules?

like "how can we nuke this OMG big genii?"

and I want a game that works and does other things too, obviously

what is "works"

cause beware, the way you're using it has no operationalization

1:54 PM

I still want to know how it came up that someone needed to know whether walls counted as people

no, like "I think you should let me do this because the rules don't say if I can so I insist I can and if you don't let me I whine and at look you the whole evening with a grumpy face"

@Zachiel Ah, That's called a social contract.

where people agree on how rules are interpreted.

Anyways.

I'd like the games I play to be clear about what you can or can't do, combine, or whatever the game allows you to do

@JonathanHobbs Basically, the creatures de jour in my game... are... well... protean.

I want rules that can only be interpreted one way. Is that too much?