TRPG General Chat

DForck42

13:13

mornin

BESW

@DForck42 Hi.

(40 minutes to morning.)

DForck42

@BESW heh, staying up late again?

BESW

Usually, yes.

DForck42

13:30

funsies

BESW

@Lord_Gareth Hope you don't mind my edit.

@DForck42 Woooo! [fbwee]

Lord_Gareth

Nah, it was great. As was your suggestion

BESW

Thanks. It came to me in a brilliant flash of durp.

C. Ross

0

A: One year anniversary contest?

Site promotion contest: Winner determined based on how many announcer, booster, and publicist badges are gained during the contest period. Advantages Garners attention for the site Easy and objective way to determine winners Disadvantage Doesn't necessarily improve site quality Doesn't...

Thoughts?

Lord_Gareth

And since the mods will be running the contest anyway....

C. Ross

13:33

@Lord_Gareth you make it sound like that's a bad thing ;-)

Martin Sojka

Skinner boxes don't do anything for me, so any kind of "... and you'll get badges/achievements/cool loot/..." kind of "reward" only gets a blank stare from me. :)

BESW

@MartinSojka What's a skinner box?

And what kind of prize would you find appealing?

Martin Sojka

Operant conditioning chamber

An operant conditioning chamber (also known as the Skinner box) is a laboratory apparatus used in the experimental analysis of behavior to study animal behavior. The operant conditioning chamber was created by B. F. Skinner while he was a graduate student at Harvard University (Masters in 1930 and doctorate in 1931). It is used to study both operant conditioning and classical conditioning. Skinner created the operant chamber as a variation of the puzzle box originally created by Edward Thorndike Purpose An operant conditioning chamber permits experimenters to study behavior condition...

wax eagle

@Lord_Gareth depending on the contest type mods may still be eligible to win. It really depends on how the criteria are formed

BESW

Ah, yar.

@MartinSojka I suppose you could call it a Skinner box, but that seems to be coming at it from the wrong way 'round.

Martin Sojka

13:39

@BESW Hard to say. If I participate in a competition, I'm usually fine with just knowing I did my best. I never needed a prize, but clear rules, a fair (play-)field, the subject to interest me, and to consider myself halfway competent in it.

BESW

@MartinSojka Then the "prize" for you is a well-crafted contest itself?

Martin Sojka

@BESW Pretty much, yes. If it was socially acceptable, I'd walk away happy from a contest I won before the prizes were handed out. :D

They get from me the same "blank stare" reaction. I know I won. I don't need someone - anyone - to tell me that.

BESW

@MartinSojka Then consider accepting the prize a gracious act on your part, allowing others to express their appreciation of your work?

Prizes aren't just about the person accepting them; they're part of a societal ritual of interparticipation.

Lord_Gareth

@C.Ross Au contraire; the fact that the mods are running it is the only reason a two-thread solution would ever work, and the two-thread solution is brilliant.

I now go AFK

Martin Sojka

I consider it part of the social contract. Doesn't mean I won't think of it as a waste of time, and by extensions deciding what the prizes will be the same.

BESW

13:43

Otherwise nobody'd give them out, and nobody'd watch the ceremonies.

wax eagle

@MartinSojka I've actually had someone decline a prize from an SE contest. That's totally legit.

BESW

@Lord_Gareth Oh, I say. You'll make me blush.

[face/palm] That "dissonant player" thread has so much unconscious elitism it hurts.

wax eagle

@C.Ross I think tha ultimately a combination of your idea and Brian's idea might work the best. Have two prize pools, one for collecting promotion badges and the other for asking/answering questions in low use tags.

C. Ross

@waxeagle yeah, something like that

wax eagle

I'm not sure that tag wikis are an area that's worth focusing on though

C. Ross

13:49

I really like Brian's idea, but it's hard to make it objective

BESW

If you want to have your old characters trust the new character without "sacrificing their roleplaying," come up with a conceit to justify it. Maybe he's somebody's cousin, or roommate at knight school, or comes with a referral from a trusted NPC.

wax eagle

@C.Ross yep, maybe a drawing from the top ten questions and answers? (SE will pull those for you). Or Top question and answer/week

C. Ross

@BESW yes. "I show up b/c I was hunting the party member that just died" is not a success path. Especially when dealing with a group of LN pirates

BESW

There's this sad idea implicit in the group that only characters who've played for a while deserve cool stuff, regardless of the player's time commitment.

C. Ross

@waxeagle true, worth a post?

BESW

13:51

@waxeagle Post it!

C. Ross

@BESW I think that's usually a form of passive aggressive trying to drive people off.

BESW

@C.Ross No, in this case it seems to be an honest idea about how roleplaying "should" work.

C. Ross

ah, simulationism I suppose?

BESW

They place great value on it, and the longer a PC is kept the more value the PC accrues in terms of intangible game benefits like contacts, reputation, and influence over newer PCs (for example, by choosing not to trust the newest member of the party simply because he's new).

wax eagle

@C.Ross Yeah I'll put one together

C. Ross

13:54

@BESW the latter is normal group dynamic though ...

BESW

@C.Ross What? No.

C. Ross

most established groups have initial distrust of new members and some form of hazing

BESW

My groups always go out of their way to find in-game reasons to welcome the new guy, starting by consulting about it as part of the character creation process.

@C.Ross That's true, but is bad form in a typical D&D game; that's not the experience goal.

The group has the power to work around it, and saying "But that's the only way my character could react" is why I have Making the Tough Decisions as highly recommended (bordering on mandatory) reading for my players.

3

C. Ross

@BESW true, but many human beings haven't learned that lesson

Martin Sojka

@BESW ... unless the new PC starts the game with more Contact perks and higher Reputation scores for the area and organisations in question. That's why I keep track of such even if the game as written doesn't. :)

BESW

13:57

@C.Ross As evidenced by the responses to the question saying "Dump the jerk" instead of wondering why a guy who says he wants to play is acting this way.

KRyan

I got @'d four times

Zachiel

@C.Ross Our heroes are supposed to be better than the mass. They are the ones who did.

KRyan

but I couldn't really figure out what was going on in the conversation

BESW

@KRyan This.

KRyan

...so he went ahead and did that?

C. Ross

13:58

@BESW disagree on this point, years of trying and frustrating do not lead to success

BESW

@KRyan He proposed it, yes.

KRyan

well, I suppose that saves me some work

C. Ross

and to be honest, some people will never work together

I have a diverse group of players and they managed to get along, but we've had to dump one or two because they were unwilling or unable to participate positively in the group

KRyan

did he, perchance, research whether or not similar things have been done on other SE sites to make sure there is precedence for this on SE? because that was my biggest concern and what had me holding off on it

BESW

@C.Ross One of the primary motivations for me to run RPGs is as a microcosm in which I can model cooperative, consultative action in an environment designed to encourage it.

@KRyan In his proposal, he says you did.

KRyan

14:00

@BESW no, I had not. daaaah

I said I needed to before I proposed it

and I haven't had time to research it

BESW

@C.Ross Sure, but due diligence is necessary or it's just elitism.

C. Ross

@BESW but do you believe that every person is capable and willing to participate positively in a group?

BESW

@C.Ross When someone wants to join my group, I first invite them to observe a session so they can be sure it's the kind of RPG experience they want.

Lord_Gareth

@KRyan I coulda sworn to Asmodeus that you'd found something on art.stackexchange

C. Ross

@BESW oh definitely, one of our best players was someone the majority of the group originally wanted to run off

Lord_Gareth

14:01

I'd severely debated not moving forward without you last night

C. Ross

now he's a desired player

KRyan

@Lord_Gareth I said I heard mention somewhere of something that sounded vaguely similar on an art-based SE

Lord_Gareth

But ultimately decided that since Brian seemed to like it I should just shoot from the hip

KRyan

last time I looked, though, there is not just plain "art" SE

C. Ross

anyway, back to work for me

BESW

14:01

That makes it absolutely clear that RPG experiences are different and sets up the idea that expectations may not be met.

KRyan

and I hadn't had a lot of time to really look into it

mostly, there was a reason I had not moved forward with it myself

Lord_Gareth

>.>

<.<

[Holsters threadgun]

wax eagle

have cake, want to eat it too:

0

A: One year anniversary contest?

Ok, here is my recommendation: I really like Cross's site promotion idea and I think it works well as a reward to existing members, but I'd like to add to it something that draws in new members and additionally rewards folks who don't love promotion, but maybe do love some of the under-served ga...

Lord_Gareth

Sorry @KRyan. I just got excited about the idea and thought I'd be doin' you a favor

BESW

What I'm saying is that in this situation it really sounds to me like nobody had yet leveraged social tools to attempt to identify the problem, much less solve it. If due diligence is done and effort is made by the whole group to identify the source of the problem rather than its symptoms, and then compromise as friends do in order to minimize or eradicate it... then yeah, incompatible playstyles, move on.

Lord_Gareth

14:05

Hey, um, @BESW, @C.Ross, if I had a "traditional" submission format should I slot that into an answer and talk about why I feel it's appropriate or should I edit it into the "question"?

BESW

@waxeagle Cupcakes?

KRyan

@BESW you've been discussing this issue for a while now; which question is it in response to?

BESW

8

Q: Dealing with dissonant player

We have a gaming group that has been playing the game for about 4 years. One of the players is my old friend, with whom I started gaming about 15 years ago. There is also another player, who has also been my friend for a long time. We are in our mid-twenties to mid-thirties. Me and my group like...

@Lord_Gareth Answer.

Keep the question bit more generic and foundational.

KRyan

@Lord_Gareth echo @BESW here

Lord_Gareth

'Kaykay

I'll link it at the top and talk a bit about it and what I'd change (screw the sample encounter)

BESW

14:07

@KRyan It bugs me because so much of the dialogue just assumes the GM's evaluation is objective and accurate, and the "problem" guy is a stinky jerkface.

KRyan

@BESW yeah, I don't have time to read all of this right now, but I tend to agree with the points I've seen you make in chat about it

actually, on that note

I have to go

likely a long day at work today

wax eagle

@BESW cupcakes are good for anniversaries, specially if they are the gigantor ones you split :)

BESW

I've been that GM, and realized to my dismay that I was being uncharitable and what I thought was deliberate misbehavior and petty childishness was actually someone frustrated by the game experience but unable to articulate why. Once we figured out what the source of the frustration was, we'd usually be able to get things squared away.

KRyan

@BESW if you have time, I'd love to see you have an answer for that question when I get to reading it ;)

Lord_Gareth

giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=15010819&postcount=2 <-That's the traditional format by the by, @BESW

BESW

14:09

@KRyan Part of talking about it on chat is to help me see if there's anything worth putting together into an answer, and experimenting with how to say it.

Maurycy Zarzycki

@BESW Small island? Greenland? ;)

Lord_Gareth

@BESW Tons of cussing, all caps, in six different languages!

KRyan

man, ErrantX's contests. the one thing I really miss from GitP's forums

BESW

@MaurycyZarzycki Guam.

Maurycy Zarzycki

@BESW Cute place

KRyan

14:11

Greenland is not exactly known as small, even if it is a lot smaller than it usually appears to be on maps

Martin Sojka

Speaking of the "... dissonant player" ... stuff, it's hard for me to understand what the hell the question is when there's a wall of text with only two question marks and both are in a quote.

Maurycy Zarzycki

@BESW And it's twice and half times as dense in population as Poland

BESW

@MartinSojka Yes, well. New member, feels like more context is automatically better context.

@MaurycyZarzycki Guam is? Heh.

We're a tad bit overpopulated in the north.

Maurycy Zarzycki

@BESW 320 vs 120 per square Km

KRyan

@MaurycyZarzycki typo on BESW's name

right, anyway

was going to work :(

BESW

14:15

@MaurycyZarzycki There's not a lot of geek/nerd culture here. It's a combination of business, military, and the local version of rednecks.

(Or at least that's how it'd seem to an outsider.)

Maurycy Zarzycki

So, is there an expansion/setting/module for d20 modern which involves zombie apocalypse?

Lord_Gareth

@MaurycyZarzycki No - and D20 modern isn't good for that either

@BESW meta.rpg.stackexchange.com/a/2838/6172

BESW

@Lord_Gareth This. Goblin dice are bad for horror.

Maurycy Zarzycki

@Lord_Gareth Unfortunately out of all systems translated to polish d20 seems to fit best

Lord_Gareth

@MaurycyZarzycki Well, let me put it to you this way. D20 is only good for a zombie apocalypse if you intend on running Left 4 Dead or something similar

Martin Sojka

14:18

Heh. The WoD games are better for such a game if you replace "vampires" with "survivors" and "normal humans" with "zombies", at least mechanically.

Lord_Gareth

Its mechanics are poor for survival horror.

Zachiel

Is it me or this is really, reallly powerful for a "cast every buff, forget about spells" caster? "The subject gains an insight bonus to Wisdom equal to 1/2 your caster level." (D&D 3.5 of course)

Maurycy Zarzycki

@Lord_Gareth The only other viable alternative is Savage Worlds

Lord_Gareth

@Martin - Pfft, nah, just run it with Hunter, call it a night

Maurycy Zarzycki

But I have experience bending d20 (DnD 3.5 to be precise) to do things it wasn't meant for

Zachiel

14:19

@MartinSojka what about Apocalypse World?

Lord_Gareth

So do I. I've tried this.

It ends in nothing but camp

Martin Sojka

@Zachiel I don't know the system, sorry.

BESW

@MaurycyZarzycki How do you get around the goblin dice problem?

Maurycy Zarzycki

@BESW More roleplaying, less mindless combat

Zachiel

I'll take a look if Escape! has been published in English

Lord_Gareth

14:20

- Zombie game

Maurycy Zarzycki

Actually most of the time as a GM I felt that the system was dragging me down, but I ran with it anyway having no better alternative

Lord_Gareth

- Less mindless combat

Sounds like Left 4 Dead to me

Zachiel

I was going to name L4D right now

BESW

@MaurycyZarzycki I felt that way for a long time with D&D too.

Zachiel

It's the one with the die pile in the middle of the target, right?

Lord_Gareth

14:21

@Zachiel - Noooooo

Zachiel

I keep confusing it with Left for Dead (both games were made for the same contest)

BESW

"Die pile" would be a good terrain feature in a zombie game.

Lord_Gareth

I'm talking about the one made by Valve, @Zachiel

The videogame

Zachiel

ok ok I know about that as well

However, there's this L4D game... wait, better check the real name

Lord_Gareth

Anyway, Left 4 Dead challenges elite survivors (I.E. players) with a combination of overwhelming numbers and special zombies, @MaurycyZarzycki

Maurycy Zarzycki

14:22

@Lord_Gareth I haven't played any zombie videogames, didn't like them

Zachiel

...

Lord_Gareth

D20 systems tend to hand resources to players that turn them into heroes

Zachiel

it turns out I got one word in three

it was hell 4 leather

Lord_Gareth

Which means that traditional survival horror doesn't work on or with them

Zachiel

stupid memory!

Maurycy Zarzycki

14:23

@Lord_Gareth That is a fair point, do you by any chance have a better alternative?

Lord_Gareth

@MaurycyZarzycki Hunter: the Vigil (nWoD). You'll need the World of Darkness core book as well

wax eagle

@KRyan photo.se has picture of the week or month, they even got their design modified to accommodate it.

BESW

AFMBE and FATE (of course) come to mind.

Lord_Gareth

Hunter is versatile in theme and is good for everything from wretched vagrants desperately fighting off encroaching soul-parasites to special agents kicking in the door on nests of demons that they clear out with cyber-rifles

Maurycy Zarzycki

@BESW If Fate Core was availbe I'd roll with it :P

BESW

14:24

@MaurycyZarzycki End-of-the-monthish!

KRyan

@waxeagle that was the one I'd heard about

@Lord_Gareth look into that, I think it will be important for the Meta question

I'm going to work now

Maurycy Zarzycki

@Lord_Gareth What is the name of the core nWoD book? and which Hunter book should I be looking for?

Lord_Gareth

AFMBE can't be suggested enough of course. GURPS is pretty freakin' lethal. Shadowrun 4e has a pretty sneaky availability too

BESW

Sure you are.

KRyan

don't mock me

Lord_Gareth

14:25

@MaurycyZarzycki It's just called World of Darkness, I'll track you down a pic of the cover

KRyan

I have a really annoying bug to kill in the next week

BESW

Could run non-d20 CoC as a supernatural zombie game easily enough.

Lord_Gareth

@MaurycyZarzycki And you want Hunter: the Vigil. That's THE VIGIL.

KRyan

and the platform prevents me from using the overwhelming majority of my debugging tools

so I'm left with trial and error and output statements

makes me very sad

Maurycy Zarzycki

Hunter: The Vigil is unavailable at my favorite shop :(

Lord_Gareth

14:26

If you purchase Hunter: the Reckoning I will find you. I will follow you everywhere you go, screaming at the top of my lungs. When you sleep, I will rearrange your house, and when you try to watch television I will sit in front of it and color on your possessions with sharpie

Until you burn that book

KRyan

right then

bye all

Maurycy Zarzycki

Bye!

@Lord_Gareth What's wrong with the Reckoning?

BESW

@KRyan I have less than a week to finalize a layout for which the client hasn't yet received releases from the original content providers.

Lord_Gareth

THERE IS NOTHING RIGHT WITH RECKONING [vein bursts, blood sprays everywhere]

I'll provide a better explanation in a sec

BESW

(He has to clean up the bile.)

Maurycy Zarzycki

14:27

Hell yea, WoD Is available in Polish!

The core I mean

Zachiel

Don't trust translators. They're an evil kin.

wax eagle

@MaurycyZarzycki completely outside the realm of d20 is Dread :)

Lord_Gareth

Dread is wonderful!

I love Dread!

Maurycy Zarzycki

@Zachiel I don't feel evil myself

Dread is a cool idea

Hm, I have to run no, my co-driver is ready to go now, don't want to stall too long

BESW

I'm pretty sure CoC is in Polish...

wax eagle

14:29

running it this weekend sometime. Running the third scenario from the sourcebook...which is basically Cabin in the Woods

Lord_Gareth

@MaurycyZarzycki Okay, so I suppose I need to ask: do you want what's wrong only with Hunter: the Reckoning or would you like the full explanation of the divide between oWoD (of which Reckoning is part) and nWoD (which I am suggesting to you). I've played both extensively.

Maurycy Zarzycki

@Lord_Gareth The latter, but I have to go and I am not sure it'll be nice of me to make you talk to the air :P

@BESW CoC is?

And now I go puff

Lord_Gareth

Call of Cthulu

Martin Sojka

I ... like oWoD. In parts. The non-idiotic, non-emo, non-goth-bullshit, non-eco-terrorist parts. No idea about either Hunter though.

Lord_Gareth

@MartinSojka You just eliminated all of oWoD

BESW

14:31

@MaurycyZarzycki catalog.chaosium.com/…

Martin Sojka

@Lord_Gareth There's a good reason why my favourite (original) vampire clan is Nosferatu. :)

BESW

(CoC seems to pride itself in being multilingual.)

Lord_Gareth

There's a good reason to track down the oWoD writers and crucify them

There is no end to my hate

Zachiel

I liked exploding dice

Lord_Gareth

There is literally nothing they didn't trample over and defile when they wrote it. The politics? Immature and crass. The "family groups"? Living stereotypes that tolerated no deviation. The meta plot? Idiotically written and shackled into every aspect of the game. The themes? Heavy-handed and clumsy. The mechanics? I STILL HAVE NIGHTMARES

BESW

14:34

@Zachiel I wish there were some way to implement exploding dice /critical hit style mechanics without being so... swingy.

Rolling more dice is just so satisfying, but... swing.

wax eagle

@BESW dice pool mechanics would help, where the number rolled isn't as importance as the final number of dice rolled

Martin Sojka

@BESW Throw n d whatever (n = your skill in that activity). Keep the highest two. If they're both the highest possible, you scored a critical hit; else just add them together for your result.

BESW

@MartinSojka What does a critical mean in that case? I'm not clear how that helps avoid swing.

Magician

@BESW This. In the latest game I've played, I rolled about 30 on exploding d6. Strictly by the rules I would have dropped the BBEG and his chief henchman thing in a single action. The DM had to handwave that I didn't, so that his plot didn't get utterly derailed (they were summoning a Thing). Which was fair enough by him, but at the same time, what's the point of having exploding dice, then.

Lord_Gareth

@BESW Truly there is no rage greater than realizing a system that you love is actually a wretched piece of garbage, brought to unholy life by people who should have known better.

Martin Sojka

14:38

@BESW It means you found the best way to deal with something in the current situation due to your skill and experience.

BESW

@Lord_Gareth So... in what mainstream system does this not at some point occur?

Lord_Gareth

@BESW Didn't occur in nWoD. I realized it was mechanically terrible awhile back but the fluff is great

The themes are wonderfully handled

BESW

@Lord_Gareth [grin] Run them in FATE!

Lord_Gareth

It's acceptable and enjoyable as long as my players remain knuckle-dragging droolmonkeys

I'm still the only one who knows how to throw out eight 15 lethal shots per attack out of a revolver with no chance to miss

And I intend to keep it that way by never doing it

(The above is why I hold that it's easier to introduce an optimizer to a non-op group than it is to introduce an anti-op player to an optimizing group. Good optimizers know when, and why, to stop)

Martin Sojka

As for exploding dice ... I like them where they are intended to simulate something where a huge result can occur due to luck (as opposed to due to skill), but is unlikely. Like damage numbers.

BESW

15:21

Sigh. Any attempt to write for the Dissonant Player thread turns into a post that's massive even for me, ranging across social contract, the power of the group to determine the role of rules at the table, the character-agency fallacy...

(It seems like that whole group has made themselves slaves to their own characters, and this is one of the core assumptions the "problem" player is acting out against.)

Martin Sojka

VtC: Not constructive, then?

BESW

VtC?

Martin Sojka

Vote-to-Close

BESW

No, I'm just lamenting my own inability to be on-target.

The 0130 thing might be an issue.

Martin Sojka

That's because the "target" is the size of a small island. I think Erik answered already what we could answer.

BESW

15:25

yeah.

wax eagle

ok, that question stuffers massively from being a wall-of-text

BESW

@waxeagle New member, complicated problem, response: anecdotal Wall.

I've tried to approach condensing it, but it steadfastly refuses to gel into a coherent mass at any size.

It's like nailing Jell-O to a tree.

And my answers keep sidetracking into "Don't blame your characters for your choices" and then switchbacking over to "Which is more important, having the guy in the game or having the gameplay be exactly the style you want?"

With frequent stops at Flail Franchise stations.

wax eagle

@BESW yeah, this is a combination of bad DM choices + bad communication.t

the question makes it out to be the players fault whereas if I were this player I'd be highly frustrated too

BESW

@waxeagle There's a new answer that's pretty great. I'm reading it and editing in a couple links and page references.

@waxeagle YES. Most of the answers and comments are just "Oh, Bad Players are incorrigible."

wax eagle

@BESW this is a clear mismatch in player, group and DM expectations, and that's a problem.

BESW

15:37

I cannot stand declarations of incorrigibility. There aren't Good and Bad players. There are players with varying levels of skill in different social and gameplay techniques, and sometimes there are jerks (which has nothing to do with whether they're players or their skill level, but happily they're actually quite rare).

wax eagle

I play in a group with a wide variety of player skill, knowledge, system mastery and expectation levels, and we make it work by operating in a varied campaign...

but it does get tense at times, but we learn what triggers some things and we try to deal with them, mostly by adjusting our personal actions in favor of fun.

BESW

@waxeagle I throw around the Making the Tough Decisions link so liberally because it's really a crucial bit of philosophy even outside character choices.

It brings the "working as a team for collaborative fun" attitude into focus.

2

A: Dealing with dissonant player

Erik Schmidt's answer is probably the better one to go with (as it'll help you find the root cause), but I'll contribute a bit based on what I see from your description. From your description, you have a player who enjoys: Building and optimizing new characters. Participating in combat. And ...

This guy. All my love.

wax eagle

@BESW yeah, he gets it.

and has excellent advice :)

glad he mentioned the Dm handcuffing himself to his BBEGs and being disappointed when they are blown up and he doesn't have another plot point ready to go.

BESW

Yeah!

wax eagle

that isn't how adventure stories work.

BESW

15:49

It's a common enough fault; we're raised on non-interactive narratives, and interactive narratives are so very different.

wax eagle

Harrison Ford shooting the sword guy outright didn't kill the narrative

BESW

Did you see my link to Ursula Vernon's blog about it?

wax eagle

@BESW not sure I did, and RPG blogs are irregularly blocked here :(

BESW

Mar 26 at 1:06, by BESW

Author/artist Ursula Vernon, on worldbuilding and the difference between interactive and non-interactive worlds: Worldbuilding and the Okapi’s Butt

Martin Sojka

@BESW ... you were? I mean, my parents did tell my bedtime stories, but they also changed them around depending on how I reacted (... at least if them doing the same with my younger brothers is any indication).

wax eagle

15:51

@BESW cool, not blocked

@MartinSojka books (not the choose your own adventure kind)

BESW

@MartinSojka Books, films, TV shows, nearly all our media is non-interactive.

DForck42

so what are some pros and cons of dnd 3.5 vs 4e?

BESW

@DForck42 Are you trying to start a fight? [grin]

wax eagle

@DForck42 don't we have that already :P

Martin Sojka

@BESW I wasn't raised on any of these, and I'm a book worm. :)

DForck42

15:52

@BESW maybe >_>

BESW

@MartinSojka My first word was "read." Both my parents, half my aunts, and my grandmother are teachers.

DForck42

@waxeagle huh?

wax eagle

@DForck42 the question, on the site

BESW

21

Q: What are the differences between D&D 3.5 and D&D 4th edition?

I have a small group of players who don't play often and we've been playing D&D 3.5. I wanted to know if there are any significant differences between D&D 3.5 and D&D 4e? Do they use a different style of game? Is one better suited for certain groups? Or is D&D 4th edition just an 'update' of D&D...

dnd-4e dungeons-and-dragons dnd-3.5e

DForck42

@waxeagle oh wow... that was left up? surprised that wasn't closed

wax eagle

15:54

@DForck42 it's relatively answerable and didn't descend into a system war

well at least the system war answers were quickly beaten with clubs

Martin Sojka

@BESW Strange that they raised you on non-interactive fiction primarily then. I might be the weird one though - after all, I'm one of the few people around who doesn't even watch TV or own one. Since ... 20 years now.

BESW

@MartinSojka Aside from college dorms, I've never lived in a house with cable TV.

Storytelling was definitely a Thing, but reading of all flavors was a big part of my life ever since ever since.

Our house has always been brimming over with books.

Novian

morning.

wax eagle

@Novian g'day

BESW

Hey.

Novian

15:59

heh just had the weirdest thought.

This is like Cheers but everyone has to own their own alchohol.

wax eagle

@Novian not until after work :P

Novian

indeed.]

wax eagle

but yes, this is the bar where we come talk about the problems in our groups :)

and everyone knows your name because it's listed with your avatar up top :P

Martin Sojka

@BESW Yeah, it was roughly the same with me when I started reading (at 5 or so, so I took my time :)). But what I most remember from that time are not the books, but when I discovered graph paper. That's when I started building a fantasy world for our teddy bears to live in and GMing (of sorts) for my brothers.

BESW

Cool.

Martin Sojka

16:11

Graph paper is the best (though the maps looked a lot like Minecraft from above). :D

wax eagle

17:59

ooh fudge dice kickstarter coming soon

Novian

18:11

jeez. I locked myself outta the house again, this time for 3 or so hours

lucky for me my sister came home for lunch.

Damn new doorknob. it tricks you into thinking its unlocked.

Lord_Gareth

Mmm, warm glow of accepted answer

Novian

lol

Maurycy Zarzycki

18:24

So now that I am back I am still curious about what is wrong with oWoD

(Not that I know anything about WoD as of yet)

C. Ross

@Lord_Gareth it is a lovely feeling

LitheOhm

18:36

@BESW I agree with you from a social perspective. Really, I do. From the standpoint of what will aid or not aid the game - sometimes that's the only way to meet conflict.

Not everyone is interested in "getting at the root" of someone else's problem. I typically am, though admittedly it's gotten me into some naive and overcomplicated jams. Some people believe that others should be responsible for their own issues, or at least try to be.

While it seems lazy from the perspective of a friend, it is up to the DM to facilitate fun for the group - not to make the session a medium for group therapy.

wax eagle

@LitheOhm in the case of this question, if the DM is going to stick to his guns, the player is going to have to go, even if I don't believe it's the players fault, it will be a better solution in the long run for both people

LitheOhm

@waxeagle Yep. Each person at the table is accountable to every other person, and the brunt of that weight falls on the DM.

wax eagle

@LitheOhm in this case, I believe the DM is at fault (even though the question places the onus on the player). But ultimately it's a mismatch between playstyles coming to a head.

LitheOhm

@waxeagle It seems more than playstyle is mismatched. I had some really disruptive players, not to each other but to me. Sleighted jokes at my expense and all that. I tried getting at the root of the problem. I believed (wrongly) that they were my friends. All I did was add to my own problems and stress. Kicking the problem player(s) out doesn't bar the other solution, though it does make it harder depending on circumstances

I believe the social dynamic of "no arguing among friends" is at fault. It stands to reason to avoid conflict among friends some of the time, but here there is great potential for cognitive conflict instead of affective, and emotional, conflict

wax eagle

@LitheOhm conflict between friends is important just like conflict is very important in a good marriage.

LitheOhm

18:44

this question interests me so much because it pits socializing against DM arbiter responsibility.

@waxeagle Agreed. Hence some of the time, and the distinction between cognitive and affective

If the question was on the cognitive sciences SE my answer would be the get-at-the-root one

but people don't come to RPG.SE for all that sort of stuff as psychoanalysis and the like. We've got to do right by a gamist's perspective

wax eagle

@LitheOhm In this case there are multiple right answers, and they depend on how comfortable the GM is with the confrontation, changing, altering his current group dynamics etc. It's not just the gaming aspect, its the social one too

you're right that we have to deal with the actual sense not the theoretical one. But the actual solution varies by the relationship of the group.

LitheOhm

@waxeagle I believe you're correct from the multiple right answers. Also, the relationship of the group does vary the actual solution, definitely

wax eagle

if this is a store game, then yeah, kick the guy out and move on. If it's a long running game among best friends who don't want to split the party, then you have to work it out.

and because we don't know that (I sense it's close to the latter than the former) we have to provide a full slate of options or the DM

and the player. Because this is a choice the player may need to make as well (even though we don't get to address him directly)

LitheOhm

@waxeagle very good point

it would seem then that the game should just be put on hold until that's resolved? If it's a symptom of the conflict, or at the very least suffering due to it

wax eagle

@LitheOhm depends entirely on how the solution is to be carried out. If the solution is to remove the player then yes, that should be done before the game resumes. If the solution is to change character creation rules and some of the DM's style then taht may be able to be handled in a short period between sessions. if the solution is to have a big talk it out and airing of grievances than do it instead of your next session.

LitheOhm

18:54

@waxeagle It's a group-by-group thing but I'm having difficulty envisioning the DM not being correct where the long-standing party members are concerned. The only solution I could see as far as that goes would be to compromise reputation and make it worth less mechanically

I'm more fond of the big talk and airing out grievances, especially with how the answer was updated

"Friendship comes first, but all of those do not let me find a solution, then... Well... "

wax eagle

@LitheOhm Ace's answer gets to the heart of this, it's a playstyle mismatch, he's penalizing the player for wanting to change characters on a regular basis. That's potentially the entire problem. If he repairs his character creation model to something more equitable to the switcher than he might actually solve his entire issue.

@LitheOhm if your group dynamics allows for it, it's likely the best solution long term.

LitheOhm

I like Ace's mention of character jumping and story plot. Reminds the DM and PCs both that it's not a computer they're trying to fool but a human trying to integrate everything. A friend, at that

this question has changed a bunch since it was the two answers. Should have checked it before I started yammering lol

@BESW had a very tempting chat-summons, though. I couldn't resist

Maurycy Zarzycki

Is there a review of WoD ruleset which explains in a good form how it works?

LitheOhm

@MaurycyZarzycki am not familiar with the system enough to say

Jadasc

19:11

@MaurycyZarzycki I'm familiar with WoD in all its forms; do you have a question in mind?

Maurycy Zarzycki

@Jadasc How does it play? How is it different from DnD and Fate in terms of rules?

Jadasc

@MaurycyZarzycki Plays fairly straightforwardly, although there's more of an emphasis on social and political play than your typical D&D game, and there's some exploration of how the use of supernatural power tends to mess you up. It's a die pool system -- you'll use your stats and abilities to determine how many dice you roll, and then count the ones that are a certain value or higher as successes.

@MaurycyZarzycki Do you know which of the WoD games you'll be playing? I can be more specific if you do.

Maurycy Zarzycki

@Jadasc Lord_gareth suggested me to try nWoD

And that's the one I am currently trying to investigate

Jadasc

@MaurycyZarzycki That's fair. Was there a particular problem you wanted to solve with that, or a question this is in regard to?

Maurycy Zarzycki

@Jadasc I wanted to run a survival/gritty zombie apocalypse campaign and he suggested nWod Hunter: The Vigil, to be precise. I am just trying to get an overall grasp of it because I don't have access to any of the books

Jadasc

19:17

@JonathanHobbs When you're next around: they're still taking Fate Core feedback until April 8th.

@MaurycyZarzycki Okay. NWOD has the advantage of being fairly lethal, but with a lot of ways to avoid death through pretty easy strategy. The stat+skill pairings mean it's easy to improvise ways to handle different challenges, but it's not so story-oriented as a game like FATE. HtV comes with some systems that are built for human-on-monster gaming, so it's a pretty good choice.

Maurycy Zarzycki

@Jadasc I don't suppose there is an SRD or anything like that for nWoD?

Jadasc

@MaurycyZarzycki Not as such. But there's a free sample game they made for National Tabletop Day that gives a summary. rpg.drivethrustuff.com/product/92564/Nightmare-on-Hill-Manor

okeefe

19:49

At one point DriveThru had the core WoD book for free (which is the reason I have it).

Martin Sojka

20:06

Specifically, the nWoD rules are (in general): 1. Determine your "dice pool" by adding the right stat (like strength, willpower or charisma, usually goes from 1 to 5 with 2 being human average IIRC), skills (likewise, 1 to 5) and situational modifiers (being hurt is one of those), 2. Roll that many d10s, 3. Count successes: 8, 9 or 10 is a success. 4. Reroll any 10s you got for potential additional successes, repeating at step 3 until no more 10s fall.

The rules mean that it's very easy to determine the average amount of successes (it's exactly (dice pool)/3), while still allowing for exceptional results on very lucky rolls to exceed even your dice pool.

Aside from stats and skills, the system has a built-in moral code (several of them to chose from, in fact, with different-yet-similar mechanical results), willpower which lets you override bad luck by sheer will - at a price -, advantages and disadvantages, special powers (fuelled by whatever gives the character type "magic" - blood for vampires, for example) and a few bits and ends more mechanically.

Maurycy Zarzycki

@MartinSojka Thanks!

Martin Sojka

Advancement is by spending XP points to buy new ranks in whatever it is you'd like to get better at. The costs are usually something like (constant multiplier) x (new rank), so if - for example - skills have a multiplier of 3 and you'd like to up your Computer skill from 3 to 4, you'd pay 3 x 4 = 12 points, and that's it.

That's from memory. I have the core book around here somewhere, just don't feel like searching for it. :)

BESW

23:43

@ObliviousSage hi!

Oblivious Sage

@BESW: how goes it?

BESW

Not bad. Excited to have finally started a DFRPG campaign.

What's new with you?

Oblivious Sage

nothing much, my main group went back to 4e, and my WoD group is collapsing due to the GM having too much on his plate; we were just doing Microscope for a while, but we had some bad intra-group dynamics for that so that group looks like its going on indefinite hiatus

BESW

Oh dear.

What was the 4e group working with before?

Oblivious Sage

the DM and i built our own system, kind of a mix of 4e and GURPS

BESW

23:49

That sounds kinda funky, definitely not a blend I'd've thought of.

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