TRPG General Chat

KRyan

05:00

@mxyzplk hence my reference to gauntlets

also known as the "same game test"

i.e. a series of nominally CR-appropriate encounters, pit the Wizard against each, the Fighter against each

and a series of encounters where you have three standard characters, and the fourth character is in one case Class A and in the other Class B

LitheOhm

@KRyan what about the subjectivity of CR? It's more of a "this monster" against "these characters" type of thing

mxyzplk

Here's the thing.

In real games, there's no lack of people that want to play non-casters and non-tier1 types.

KRyan

@LitheOhm CR is poor, agreed, but they're facing the same challenges

mxyzplk

Therefore they are not superior, quod erat demonstrandum.

They are superior in some arbitrary test. But not in what makes playing D&D fun, at least not to most people.

KRyan

@mxyzplk for a definition of "superior" that was not under debate?

superior in their ability to single-handedly answer a wide array of challenges

LitheOhm

05:03

@KRyan but the same challenge means mountains of differences between a rogue, fighter, ranger and sorceror. I thought Ernir pit them against one another?

mxyzplk

"Kale is a superfood!"
"Sure but that shit is nasty, so suck it"

KRyan

@LitheOhm for the Fighter 13 vs. Wizard 20, yes. his were far from the only tests

@mxyzplk nowhere did I say that people should only play that which is optimal

mxyzplk

It's the engineering approach vs the scientist approach.

LitheOhm

@mxyzplk how do you mean?

KRyan

I have only made a point of explaining what is and is not optimal for the purposes of knowledge and edification

he means theory vs. practice

LitheOhm

05:04

k. I didn't get to far in my elec engineer degree lol

KRyan

which, of course, ignores the entire reality of experimentation, and the reliance of engineers on solid scientific theory before they can begin work

mxyzplk

Scientists like to prove a lot of stuff that's either blazingly obvious or not terribly relevant, and their conclusions often conflict with real world outcomes. Engineers worry about the real world outcomes. Science underlies it, but is not really the most important part to it.

KRyan

engineering is very much not just "well, this has seemed to work for us in the past"

@mxyzplk uh, no, not usually, no, yes, yes, no

LitheOhm

actually I disagree. I encountered something similar in a book I'm reading where he said a theory without data was useless and I agreed, but the other way around (data without theory) is something he also said was useless. That seems to be similar to here?

Michael Shermer, The Believing Brain

KRyan

@LitheOhm I'm not sure; mxyzplk is pointing out that theory without data is useless, which is of course true but equally of course does not describe any real science

mxyzplk

05:07

You can spend millions of man-hours spinning more and more complex optimizations and playtests, and it just doesn't help real play any more than 15 minutes of good judgement.

It's cool that people like to do that, but it's a hobby separate from actually playing the game.

LitheOhm

@mxyzplk yeah. Rule zero isn't to be a jerk, it's to keep the game flowing

mxyzplk

It's baseball card stats and fantasy teams vs real sport.

KRyan

@mxyzplk in your limited experience, and yes it is limited because you are only one human being, and while there are definitely cases of theoretical optimization that are far removed from actual play, I have not particularly talked about any of it on this site, except for one time I explained Pun-pun to someone, and I think I may have mentioned the damage record

mxyzplk

Which are fine and valid pastimes, but they don't influence the real sport that much

KRyan

for the most part, however, this stuff does actually come up in games

and while you may not have run into those problems

lots of people have

LitheOhm

05:09

but just the fact that not everyone runs into them makes them non-universal

mxyzplk

And they are in fact caused or mitigated by mode of play. Which is my point. We choose a mode of play where your "tier" doesn't really cause such a huge differentiation.

KRyan

@LitheOhm the game runs only on a social contract, @mxyzplk has just had the good fortune to find a group that has implicitly agreed to a social contract without necessarily working out the theoretical details

other groups are not necessarily made of players who are all going to implicitly assume the same things about how the game is played

which is where optimization and theory is helpful, because it informs you about what options you, as a player, and you, as a group, have

mxyzplk

Like, every group I've ever played with has the same kind of "social contract." It's only recently you needed to explicitly militate against custom built, custom geared, charopped stuff. Back in the day it was just "munchkin got himself Blackrazor, sic a rust monster on him and let's move on"

I acknowledge that the problems you cite will come up with groups whose play mode is largely gamist.

Historically that's a rarity. It seems like there's a lot of them because that's who likes to yell on Internet forums.

KRyan

by "mode of play" here you really seem to mean "it's not a problem because no one in the group is bothered by it, not because it doesn't exist"

mxyzplk

And that's not with a sheltered gaming life. I was a leader in the Living Greyhawk RPGA campaign, started a public gaming club in Memphis, etc. The degree of pure game focus that such theory discussions worry about is quite rare in the wild.

KRyan

05:15

I really don't think your personal anecdotal experience leaves you qualified to make that claim

because, of course, my personal anecdotal experience indicates the exact opposite, and I would not make the opposite claim

mxyzplk

@KRyan And that is absolutely true. You see, "but but the numbers" is one of literally a million critiques that can be levied against a game. "It's sexist!" "It's written at a fourth grade level!" "It doesn't contain enough ninjas!" "It doesn't allow for player narrative agency!" All of these matter to you if they matter to you. They do not if they don't.

You can find a million "problems" that "exist" with anything. The question is, are they differences that matter, in other words, generate a negative outcome? In my experience there's many, many larger faults a game can have in terms of gameplay outcome than "not every choice is equally optimal."

KRyan

but my point is that, ok, for example: a well-played Wizard can, in a single action and with a commonly-prepared spell, potentially end an encounter right there. Mop up may still be necessary, but his side has such overwhelming statistical and tactical advantages that the threat is gone. And if he has a day to prepare, he can literally ensure that he has the right such magic bullet. This is not a rare event in 3.5, and I am neither talking about splatbook spells nor am I referring to high levels

grease can do this, glitterdust can do this, solid fog can do this

if your "mode" does not care about this, then that's fine

mxyzplk

And yet somehow, wizards die all the time

KRyan

that can be prevented too, particularly at high levels, but you've said yourself that no one in your group is heavily optimizing, so the fact that those wizards die is not necessarily significant

a Wizard could have mirror image and displacement up, for example; he could still die, but the odds are getting slim

but that's kind of besides the point

LitheOhm

@mxyzplk all that stuff you did, like Living Grehawk, you got to oversee a lot of other games too, aye?

KRyan

05:22

I don't really know where I was going with all of that

mxyzplk

Hey man, you're welcome to enjoy optimizing. Just understand that insisting others should care is just as pedantic as those who insist unceasingly the game art should be a certain way or they shouldn't use gendered pronouns or whatever to those who don't value that part of the game.

@LitheOhm Oh sure.

KRyan

ok, it's not that others should care, it's that others should know that these things do affect real games and the likelihood that a given character will be dominating or useless in a given encounter, or series of encounters

if that does not matter to you, then enjoy

LitheOhm

@mxyzplk reminds me of the one time I got to be at a local gaming store. We were making Vampire characters and all I was concerned about was "not making a suicide machine," ie. bottom tier. Anything else and I was cool with it

KRyan

but don't pretend that "all that theory crap" has no basis in reality of how mechanical victory could be achieved

mxyzplk

@LitheOhm Yeah, I mean you don't want to be so outclassed by other PCs and the opposition that you don't contribute/have fun.

KRyan

05:26

@mxyzplk that would be generally the situation that I offer optimization advice to avoid, yes

I mean, yes, plenty of my answers here have gone well beyond that and into "if you really want to do this the best it can be done"

but at least personally that's more out of an interest in completeness than anything else

mxyzplk

@KRyan Sure, but it's just like when my car-lover friend tells me all about how this one car has the theoretically best engine or whatever, and that still gets it a half-circle rating from Consumer Reports because there's just so much more than that which goes into a real car and a real driving experience

LitheOhm

I didn't need an optimized character, though. Just something that doesn't have all incompatible skills and no combat talent whatsoever

@KRyan a lot of the new players might get really confused by your encyclopedic references, I fear

my little brother could jump on here and ask about feats for his fighter. When someone posts something directing him to X and Y splats and telling him how he shouldn't be doing what he's doing, the game just got more complicated for him and he might not want to play

mxyzplk

A DeLorean has a Yugo engine in it, but it still pulls down a lot more tail than a Toyota Corolla. #justsayin

LitheOhm

there's something to be said for advancing quickly, but also something about just letting people learn on their own pace

KRyan

@mxyzplk well, some optimization advice is very narrowly focused on optimizing a particular thing, others are broader, but for the most part the goal and hope would be that the reader is understanding the underpinnings of the advice and synthesizing it so that they can hit the various goals that they have for the character

and I want to be explicit in saying that not all of those goals should be mechanical

LitheOhm

05:29

I'm not trying to discourage that, just another facet to keep in mind

it's an expert website. But that's why we'll get a lot of beginners as well

KRyan

@LitheOhm feel free to comment on any that are particularly problematic and I will try to improve them

LitheOhm

@KRyan noted

KRyan

@LitheOhm I... try to avoid telling people they're doing it wrong, though I may not be the best at doing so

mxyzplk

Yeah, I think that's a lot of my problem with CharOp centered advice as well. You can kinda shilly-shally about it here in chat but there's a lot of "This is PLAIN BETTER and that is AWFUL..."

KRyan

@mxyzplk not denying that there have been numerous incredibly acerbic optimizers

I mean, Frank & K exist

they're a thing

LitheOhm

05:31

I've taught a lot of new players. A lot. I've moved from Colorado to Ohio and then to Idaho, and online gaming isn't the easiest. Plus some of those people don't even want to online game. Most of my experience is in bringing people into the game and helping them understand the system/goal as a whole

KRyan

even The Logic Ninja, whose advice is actually very party-friendly and encourages players not to take broken options (e.g. polymorph), writes in a very haughty tone

at the same time, context also does matter a lot

I think there is value in the knowledge that, say, Option A is strictly better than Option B (sadly a thing that does happen in 3.x)

doesn't mean you have to avoid Option B, just that you should know that Option A does exist and is better

but I'll be the first to admit that I don't always make that clear, and that plenty of optimizers don't even attempt to make that clear, or even necessarily agree

LitheOhm

the arcane spell failure question is one that comes to mind. But you did make it a new question and it's definitely a handy one. But that looked like a newbie dropping in looking for something for a newbie

KRyan

@LitheOhm I'll think about a newbie section then, because I can think of very simple advice on that point for a new player

it mostly entails a Mithral Buckler and mage armor

LitheOhm

it wouldn't have been just 'their' question, sure - but on the asker, a simpler "twilight enchantment" answer would be more likely accepted

yeah, or even mithral. Or bracers. Something that their GM would probably already have brought into the game

mxyzplk

Y'all have fun, need to hit the sack now

KRyan

05:35

yeah, damn, need to do that too

night all

LitheOhm

and I've found that one newbie among many experienced gamers is the exception. DMs tend to be the more experienced ones but newbies more often come in groups

@mxyzplk cool, night

@KRyan night

bringing in material from [obscure but WotC approved source Y] then brings that in along with it's relatively more complicated rules that the GM has to cover not only for that PC but the others as well. Then instead of learning depth in the system first, they're just shallowly dipping here and there

S. John Ross is referenced here and there on the site and his advice for people learning 3e is to memorize the phrase "I want to play a human fighter." Not because it's powerful but because it's simple. They get many feats which are a simple enough mechanic, not many skills but then they learn combat well and get to vicariously experience things through the rest of the party. That way when they make their next char they've got a solid understanding of at least the very basics

leading to a better idea of what they would like to play

KRyan

@LitheOhm Fighters are, IMO, a really poor first class, because there are a ton of feats, and feats cannot be reselected, and they are really important

Warlock or a Tome of Battle class are my typical go-tos

the list of invocations/maneuvers are much shorter, and those classes are still quite easy to play

Tome of Battle is also a great simple intro to resource management, which is a huge part of 3.5

aaaand I was going to sleep sigh

night, closing this tab now

William 'MindWorX' Mariager

09:04

@BESW, That shaming question is rather interesting.

BESW

@William'MindWorX'Mariager Thank you. It's... a weird artifact of the system that I haven't seen explicitly addressed yet.

William 'MindWorX' Mariager

Considering how FATE was explained to me, I think it'll come down to a show of hands from the players. I agree that shaming a hitman into not shooting you sounds unlikely.

BESW

@William'MindWorX'Mariager Agreed, but with sufficient context you can make him flee for fear of losing face.

Thus... situational decision by group consultation.

William 'MindWorX' Mariager

That's true. But shaming someone sounds harder than overpowering them. I mean, a hitman is a hitman, I really don't think they care much for what you've said once you're dead.

BESW

It's actually inspired by a situation in a system familiarity test my players ran: the clown (good Guns skill, but armed only with squirt guns) pulled out a bleach-loaded water blaster and destroyed the hitman's clothes.

William 'MindWorX' Mariager

09:06

Hehe

BESW

Then he assessed the hitman to have an aspect "The Clothes Make the Man," and invoked the hell out of it.

And this was before the clown did such a scathing parody of the hitman that he gave the guy "Can't Hit A Clown" as an aspect.

William 'MindWorX' Mariager

That's awesome. Creativity like that in a game is what makes all the fun for the GM. When your players surprise you.

BESW

Led me to think what might've happened if the clown had decided to go for the hitman's social stress track instead of using the hitman's poor social defenses for easy aspect-placement.

If I'd had to do it on the fly, I think I'd have had the hitman use up his consequence aspects on not being taking out socially, which would make it easier to take him out physically because he wouldn't have those consequences to soak the stress.

But that's just avoiding the issue.

That combat was also an excellent example of how FATE encourages players to treat even faceless mooks as people: people have aspects to invoke.

The player looked at the hitman: as a faceless mook he had just one aspect, "Made Man." And obviously for a man like that, "The Clothes Make The Man."

(Bonus points for it being a pun.)

William 'MindWorX' Mariager

09:24

What's interesting is, the players also help construct recurring characters by adding personality and traits to even "faceless mooks" as you call them.

I think FATE makes players more involved.

BESW

It very much does.

It gives them tools to not only have their characters change their environment, but for the players themselves to do so.

Right from the start, where you make the setting and the characters pretty much simultaneously. Part of that is developing the kind of story and NPCs you want to have; the players actually make "faces," NPCs that represent the different parts of the setting.

A GM in FATE creates plots by looking at the aspects on PCs, NPCs, and places, and finding interesting ways they interact.

Maurycy Zarzycki

10:03

@BESW Hey

BESW

Hoi!

So, I'm not sure how your question is different from mine.

Maurycy Zarzycki

I am rereading your question once again

And I think what I wanted to ask is a "broad simplification" of your question

BESW

Your question is where I started when I began writing mine, I think.

Maurycy Zarzycki

It'd be a very movie-like situation

BESW

I found as I wrote that I needed to be more specific in order to make it a question I felt was answerable.

Maurycy Zarzycki

10:06

The hero and the villain are fighting, and the latter talks the protagonist into anger and making a mistake

So it's like giving him a psychical complication "angered" and tagging it for the benefit of physical combat

BESW

If you scroll up a bit you'll see the fight that prompted my question.

Maurycy Zarzycki

Imo on one hand it makes some types of characters overpowered, being able to talk down every threat

BESW

1 hour ago, by BESW

It's actually inspired by a situation in a system familiarity test my players ran: the clown (good Guns skill, but armed only with squirt guns) pulled out a bleach-loaded water blaster and destroyed the hitman's clothes.

Maurycy Zarzycki

But on the other hand, there are cases of people who can do exactly that

BESW

1 hour ago, by BESW

Then he assessed the hitman to have an aspect "The Clothes Make the Man," and invoked the hell out of it.

59 mins ago, by BESW

Led me to think what might've happened if the clown had decided to go for the hitman's social stress track instead of using the hitman's poor social defenses for easy aspect-placement.

Maurycy Zarzycki

10:08

But he paid with a Fate Point for every invocation after the tag?

BESW

Right.

Maurycy Zarzycki

He invoked the aspect to lower the Guns skill of the hitman or for what benefit?

BESW

Anything that could be justified from demoralization.

Maurycy Zarzycki

Seems pretty severe

BESW

I have the feeling that aside from "situationally as your group decides each time," the answer may have to do with compelling for effect.

Maurycy Zarzycki

10:10

But the guy got hell of a fate points by all the compels your player did

Couldn't he also use them for his own benefit?

BESW

Yes, though he had fewer aspects available to invoke because of the circumstances.

Maurycy Zarzycki

I might recall the rules incorrectly, but my memory tells you that when a character invokes another character's aspect, the Fate Point is transferred to the "sad" side

The destroying of clothes was a consequence?

BESW

It was an aspect.

Maurycy Zarzycki

How was it placed?

BESW

Through a maneuver with Guns.

Maurycy Zarzycki

10:13

How can you use Guns to place an aspect?

Even with a maneuver?

BESW

When you're a clown with a bleach-loaded water blaster...

In other situations, I can easily see placing aspects like Deafened on a target, or putting Leaky on a barrel.

Maurycy Zarzycki

Hm, that sounds reasonable

BESW

We were being very silly, so the clown used squirt guns loaded with various chemicals.

Maurycy Zarzycki

But I am still not sure it's according to the rules that you can place aspects on another using Guns (or other skills which don't directly specify this ability) without consequences happening

It kinda makes the consequences obsolete

BESW

I'm confused.

Consequences are a damage mechanic used to mitigate stress.

Maurycy Zarzycki

10:23

But you've just placed an aspect on someone which has the same consequences as as a mechanical consequence

BESW

The example in DFRPG on page 208 uses Althetics, Fists, or Weapons to place the Blinded aspect on a target.

Maurycy Zarzycki

Ahhh

Okay

BESW

How else would maneuvers work?

Maurycy Zarzycki

That's the part I've been missing

Increasing skill value for a specific use :P

BESW

In a maneuver, you roll opposed skill checks of an appropriate type to place a temporary aspect on the target. If you succeed without shift, it's a fragile aspect that vanishes after one exchange. If you have shift on the roll, it lasts until the end of the encounter or until removed.

Maurycy Zarzycki

10:27

Hm so there are Mortal Stunts AND Maneuvers?

BESW

Whenever you successfully place an aspect for any reason, including maneuvers, you get one free invocation of that aspect.

Stunts are character traits, maneuvers are an action you can take.

Maurycy Zarzycki

Ohh, crap

BESW

Generally, stunts expand the scope of your ability to use a skill, either by giving you a new way to use it or letting you use it in a way normally reserved for a different skill.

Maurycy Zarzycki

I guess I've mixed and messed up the terminology :(

BESW

No sweat. The different games use different terms, and FATE Core is changing it all again.

Maurycy Zarzycki

10:29

Nah it makes a difference, I'll have to reread all my translations so far and adjust to it

BESW

And some of their word choices are a little odd.

Powers, to be complete, are what DFRPG calls stunt-like supernatural features.

Maurycy Zarzycki

Okay, thanks for clearing it up

BESW

Ah, right. You're doing the translation.

Maurycy Zarzycki

Makes me now wonder why the hitman didn't use a maneuver to remove the aspect?

BESW

First because I was playing him at a "shoot first, last, and always" kind of guy just to keep things simple on my end.

Second because it was my first fight in FATE too.

Third because he had a mime hanging on his gun.

Maurycy Zarzycki

10:39

Okay, fair enough

The first one is the most convincing :)

I've played one session so far with no combat of any kind

BESW

This was a sudden improv conflict to demonstrate the system.

Simon Gill

Morning :) Looks like I missed a long and detailed conversation.

Maurycy Zarzycki

Hey

BESW

hi!

Simon Gill

10:53

and a very interesting question cracks knuckles To the books!

BESW

@SimonGill In my continued quest to ferret out Vague Stuff and worry it to death, I helped Maurycy uncover a translation error in his work.

@SimonGill Excellent!

Brian Ballsun-Stanton

I'm making my theoretical post... even longer.

wheeee

::looks over at the starred posts:: I'm so very very glad I missed that discussion.

BESW

Yes. Yes, you are.

Maurycy Zarzycki

Which discussion?

There is quite a lot of starred posts

BESW

@MaurycyZarzycki Stormwind Fallacy.

Simon Gill

10:59

Optimisation vs. Character Concept - and why it is and isn't a problem.

Brian Ballsun-Stanton

@SimonGill I wrote a bloody paper about it.

::sigh::

Simon Gill

mmmm, has KRyan read your paper?

Maurycy Zarzycki

The paper written with mxyzplk?

It's the only paper I recall being mentioned

Brian Ballsun-Stanton

@MaurycyZarzycki no

I've got 2. The one with cross and mxy, and the one with sam russell

@SimonGill almost certainly.

BESW

Constrained Optimization in Dungeons and Dragons: A Theory of Requirements Generation for Effective Character Creation.

Brian Ballsun-Stanton

11:11

@BESW that's the hobbit.

Simon Gill

I still haven't managed to read it yet - it got a little dense for me.

BESW

@BrianBallsun-Stanton [looks at paper in an entirely new, slightly fuzzy-footed, light]

Brian Ballsun-Stanton

@SimonGill Yeah, my work tends to do that :)

BESW

@SimonGill Yeah, I kinda reduced to skimming.

Brian Ballsun-Stanton

@SimonGill you should try my thesis, it... has a slight gravitational field.

Simon Gill

11:15

@BrianBallsun-Stanton help me... spins in a decaying orbit heeeeelp me.......

Brian Ballsun-Stanton

@SimonGill Read the paper, its your only hope. You might be able to emerge from the far side...

Maurycy Zarzycki

Were these papers published somewhere more officially?

Brian Ballsun-Stanton

@MaurycyZarzycki no, sent to IJRP. But they were a bit too nordic. I'd be fascinated in finding a venue.

Maurycy Zarzycki

"Too nordic", what the what does that mean?

Brian Ballsun-Stanton

@MaurycyZarzycki the nordic larping scene is .... special.

and so their journals are... special...

I'm way too pragmatic

BESW

11:23

@MaurycyZarzycki The IJRP is the International Journal of Role-Playing.

Maurycy Zarzycki

@BESW That I've googled easily

BESW

Brian means that his articles were not accepted by that journal because they didn't fit the journal's style/approach.

Maurycy Zarzycki

Their site and number of updates is very unconvincing

BESW

Yes, it is... minimal.

Simon Gill

@BrianBallsun-Stanton Very, very special. Almost reenactor like - and moreso in some ways. Hessian underpants says it all, really!

Maurycy Zarzycki

11:27

So is minimal the nordic style? Do their larps consist of a group of people standing around and saying one work per minute? And their papers are so laconic that billboards have more text?

Brian Ballsun-Stanton

@MaurycyZarzycki no. It's just that their construction of "fun" and "reason for playing" ... doesn't really correspond well with mine.

BESW

@MaurycyZarzycki I don't know anything about the nordic LARP scene, but at a guess they're kinda intense.

Maurycy Zarzycki

Is the "Constrained optimization" paper available anywhere beyond mendeley.com? Their site is undergoing maintenance.

Brian Ballsun-Stanton

@MaurycyZarzycki uh..

Yes, in fact it is

do I have permission to mail it to you?

Maurycy Zarzycki

Feel free to

Or rather, I'd be grateful

Brian Ballsun-Stanton

11:32

dropbox.com/s/jlbq1wbut4c4kni/…

is much better...

Maurycy Zarzycki

I'll print it and read to bed

Thanks :)

BESW

@MaurycyZarzycki Eine kleine nachtacademia?

Maurycy Zarzycki

I am afraid my German knowledge is limited to "Ich heisse Maurycy und Ich bin drei und zwanzig Jahre alt"

BESW

Eine kleine Nachtmusik

' (Serenade No. 13 for strings in G major), K. 525, is a 1787 composition for a chamber ensemble by Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart. The German title means "a little serenade," though it is often rendered more literally but less accurately as "a little night music." The work is written for an ensemble of two violins, viola, and cello with optional double bass, but is often performed by string orchestras. Composition, publication, and reception The serenade was completed in Vienna on 10 August 1787, It is not known why it was composed. Hildesheimer (1991, 215), noting that most of Mozart's serena...

Simon Gill

technoccult.net/archives/2012/12/22/… has some interesting stories if you want to know more about the crazy Nords.

Maurycy Zarzycki

11:37

Never heard of it, sorry

BESW

It's one of the more famous pieces of classical music.

Maurycy Zarzycki

@SimonGill It's... Indeed specific

BESW

I was making a joke about "a little night music" vs "a little night reading."

Maurycy Zarzycki

@BESW The only piece with "Eine kleine" i know is "Eine Kleine Meine Freunde" or so

Simon Gill

@BESW It was a good joke.

BESW

11:38

@SimonGill Thank you, but then I explained it.

Maurycy Zarzycki

@BESW I know this piece! I just never knew its name

BESW

►

Brian Ballsun-Stanton

@BESW whut.

Simon Gill

@BESW I got it :P Just trying to arrange my thoughts about social damage in physical conflicts at the same time.

BESW

@BrianBallsun-Stanton Try starting around 1:42.

@MaurycyZarzycki Most people do.

Ben Hardy

11:45

@BESW While you mentioned this to me before...i have yet to actually listen to it. This is awesome, and it's not just because I have a softspot for Barbershop Quartets.

Brian Ballsun-Stanton

youtube.com/watch?v=lFg21x2sj-M&feature=youtu.be ... you know. This really seems to be an avenue for Fun. "Suddenly, someone pours a shedload of concrete into your fortress."

Simon Gill

It's that level 70 wizard again...

BESW

Heheheh.

@SimonGill I would star that if it could have context.

Ben Hardy

Poor ants

Simon Gill

@BrianBallsun-Stanton "I just bought a fortress!" Level 70 Wizard appears "I have a negative mold of a fortress in concrete!"

Brian Ballsun-Stanton

11:49

@SimonGill heh. yes.

Simon Gill

That is a fantastic visual for an ant race aesthetic...

Brian Ballsun-Stanton

@SimonGill no, this dungeon isn't trapped. It's just being destructivly mapped by some scholars. Mind the molten aluminium as you escape out the top... where the... how's your fire resistance?

Simon Gill

Haha, that too.

BESW

Sorry, but I have to link this now: youtube.com/watch?v=8n32ImHeKrw

(starts around 0:45)

Simon Gill

Do you know about deep-linking videos, @BESW?

BESW

11:54

Not sure.

Do you mean like &t=0m45s?

Simon Gill

Yeah - that's exactly what I mean.

BESW

I'm not always sure what the protocol is for where I'm posting, and I know sometimes it fails depending on the receiver's security choices.

Simon Gill

I've never noticed a deep-link fail because of security choices...

BESW

Maybe I have it confused with something else.

Simon Gill

Possibly... embedding may have security issues.

Aaaaaanyway - fortresses being destructively mapped.

BESW

11:59

What about up from beneath? "Sir! The mole men are collecting data on our outposts!"

[burble burble burble]

Simon Gill

Using a blend of soils to aid in their mapping technology?

BESW

And possibly wormcast.

[badum-psh]

...I think I killed the chat with a bad pun. Do I get a badge?

Simon Gill

@BESW You could ask for it on meta? :P

BESW

I'll add it to my collection of imaginary "What's the topic of this chat, again?" badges.

Maurycy Zarzycki

My puns are worse and I never got a badge

BESW

12:11

Unfortunately, bilingual puns have a much smaller audience.

Maurycy Zarzycki

My puns are only bad in English

BESW

You make great puns in other languages?

Maurycy Zarzycki

I don't make any, don't want to lose friends over them

BESW

Bah! I once ran an entire campaign setting that existed solely for a lame pun.

Simon Gill

@BESW So long as you own your lame puns, it's all good.

BESW

12:16

@SimonGill [hangs head in shame] They own me.

Simon Gill

@BESW Step 1 - admitting you have a problem.

BESW

Step 2 - Wallowing in it.

Simon Gill

Yep!

5

A: Ending combat: should I "kill" monsters prematurely?

Consider other "Combat Outs" Dave "The Game" Chalker has written pretty extensively on his blog about The Combat Out - alternative endings to combat encounters when the result is a forgone conclusion. The Combat out is: In a given fight, have alternate means for the combat to end beyond th...

This has an interesting point about gold tempo when it comes to mercenaries.

BESW

"tempo"?

Simon Gill

If I spend 500 gold to hire some mercanaries, who I know will accept more gold to stop fighting, then it is to my advantage to hire them first so that my opponent has to spend 2,3 or 4 times as much to get them to stop and if they do get paid enough to turncoat I know where they are.

Maybe not tempo... advantage is probably the better term. Been a while since I've done much CCG theorizing.

Ben Hardy

12:30

This works well, but when you have meta-gamers at the table that says "Thems be bags of experience running away"

BESW

That's why you never pay more than half up front.

@SimonGill Are you familiar with the Curse of Fatal Death?

Simon Gill

@BESW By name, yes, but I still haven't watched it.

BESW

►

Relephant bit deep-linked.

Darnit, I may have linked to the wrong bit. Sorry, multitasking.

Simon Gill

I got the "Not so fast! I'm going to have dinner with the architect" bit

BESW

Starts here, actually: youtube.com/watch?v=NZktNoK4wDo&t=2m47s

Simon Gill

12:39

Yeah, when you add time travel it all gets a bit confusing.

Although... I was going off on thoughts of making the D&D 3.5 economy sensible based on the rules rather than the hoped-for end result.

BESW

....you fool!

Simon Gill

Well, it's not all that bad really.

BESW

D&D economics is based solely on unusual edge cases (adventurers) not seen in the wider economic market.

Simon Gill

Starting with the assumption that the first class level is easily accessible for somebody with a 12 or higher in the primary stat - it should be possible to work out what happens.

William 'MindWorX' Mariager

D&D economics makes spending time on eating, drinking and paying for simple equipment pointless.

Simon Gill

12:42

@William'MindWorX'Mariager Yeah, so what would a society that worked like that actually look like?

BESW

The major issue is that it's designed around a small fringe set of consumers.

The vast majority of the world doesn't want much in the way of magic items, and the way magic items are designed the ones they do want are either single-use or eternal.

William 'MindWorX' Mariager

@SimonGill I'm not sure. I generally run a more low-magic system so I don't really give my players exorbitant amounts of money.

Me and my group like having to make sure they actually have enough money to live.

Simon Gill

First thoughts were that farming takes about an hour and a bit a day by the priests - so there is a huge glut of extra labour.

William 'MindWorX' Mariager

I think it's called "grit" perhaps. I think that's the preference in my group.

BESW

@William'MindWorX'Mariager How much is that, anyway? anyone with average Wis can survive indefinitely in the wilderness.

Simon Gill

12:46

@William'MindWorX'Mariager That's the other thing - money is a complication at the level I'm thinking of at the moment. I'm starting at the basic needs of the whole population. Food, water, shelter, protection.

William 'MindWorX' Mariager

@BESW Well, in our system, foraging isn't as straight forward. Takes a bunch of time. So sure, they could survive, but then they wont be doing any adventuring.

BESW

@William'MindWorX'Mariager Aye, but for the majority of the population... off-gridding is actually something anyone can do.

William 'MindWorX' Mariager

@SimonGill I remember this book once that dealt with building cities and strongholds along with service, income, etc.

I'll see if I can find the name when I get home, it was very good reading.

BESW

@William'MindWorX'Mariager And they made little to no sense, sadly.

Simon Gill

@William'MindWorX'Mariager Stronghold Builders Guidebook I think.

William 'MindWorX' Mariager

12:48

Yeah, that's the one. I found it nice. No clue if it made sense though.

BESW

3e Stronghold Builders and Arms & Equipment both try to delve into economics.

Simon Gill

That was just as guilty of the result-backwards thinking though.

Turns out that you can't get much food out of the priests. Why did I remember Create Food and Water being a 1st level spell?

Maurycy Zarzycki

Wasn't there a question here some time ago about abusing priests to create infinite wood and fater?

BESW

You may be thinking of create water, which is level 0.

Maurycy Zarzycki

19

A: Medieval problems in a magical world

Looking at the cleric as a bundle of resources for a moment: Both wells and clerics generate water. A well accesses underground aquifers* and can generate larger and smaller volumes of water depending on local circumstances. Furthermore, most liquid intended for human consumption is vaguely alco...

Simon Gill

12:52

@BESW Probably...

BESW

(1 for paladins. Because paladins are going to spend their precious spell slot on water. yes.)

It does, at least, make droughts trivial and make moot the need for aqueducts or building along water sources.

Rivers are now solely about travel.

That's the thing about any attempt to model a D&D economy: it starts with spells.

Simon Gill

@BESW definitely.

BESW

Purify food and drink makes food preservation trivial.

Priests of the local god of agriculture are going to drop hallow spells loaded with anti-vermin riders on all major granaries.

At a certain level, towns pitch in to buy a single decanter of endless water.

The whole thing becomes increasingly ridiculous until you realize that any major city just gates in produce from Arborea.

Simon Gill

Farming the food seems to be weird - one person eats 3-15sp worth of food per day. One trained person taking 10 on Profession (Farming) creates around 7gp worth of food a week. Each farmer can support around 6-7 people on good food.

Ignoring lagging indicators, anyway.

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