TRPG General Chat

12:02 AM

@Zachiel Your experience as a GM strongly reflects my own early philosophies in 3.5.

But after about three years I started doing careful homebrew, and after about six I was desperately trying anything to get all the members of a particularly imbalanced party to feel useful.

Zachiel

I'm too lazy to even try that. I'm trying 4e instead

agradine

@BESW I was about to say, I can't imagine anyone but a seven-year-old playing a kender

BESW

@Zachiel Yeah, 4e was a godsend in that sense.

Zachiel

@BESW I hope it really works

BESW

@Zachiel It took me some time to get into the groove of 4e monsterbuilding.

Zachiel

12:06 AM

I'm more into 4e monsterfluffing

BESW

I strongly recommend reading through @Magician's blog posts about 4e monsters he used in his campaigns.

agradine

I think I'm one of a handful of people who have had a great deal of fun playing 3.5 with characters that were practically useless in combat

BESW

@agradine I once ran a Misfits Campaign for a (rather unusual, I'm learning) group of players.

agradine

But as a DM I need to keep reminding myself that's not everyone's experiences, especially since I played for DMs who were better than I am at developing non-combat encounters

BESW

Each player designed a character with a customized fatal flaw which severely impacted their usefulness.

A dwarven bard whose instrument was intelligent bagpipes--which refused to play unless soaked in booze. You thought dry bagpipes sounded bad.

A wizard who wanted to be an archer in the army so badly he developed a mental block: he can only prepare spells by enchanting arrows, so the spell's target or epicenter is whatever the arrow hits. Adds great range to fireball, but makes party buffing rather painful.

A ranger raised by wolves, who knew a number of words equal to his Intelligence score and approached all situations with a distinctly wolfy philosophy.

@mxyzplk Hi!

Zachiel

12:13 AM

@agradine I'm playing a completely useless in combat character - oh, she's even portrayed in my avatar here - in a 3.5 game. It's a persistent world type of game so I can do that without ruining anyone's party balance. But somehow I envy those who can fight.

@BESW His INT must have been 13.

BESW

@Zachiel Hm?

agradine

@BESW those sound fantastic

Zachiel

@BESW OG

BESW

Ah, right.

agradine

One of my favorite 3.5 characters was a rogue built as a private detective; I don't think I used sneak attack once with that character

It was a pirate-themed campaign, so he spent most of his time in the crows nest firing crossbow bolts mostly ineffectually at the combat below.

I think he entered melee combat once over the course of that campaign, and only because his buddy was getting his ass kicked, and only after the kobold captive I had intimidated into helping didn't prove too effective at helping.

Sometimes I miss playing

BESW

12:21 AM

Mmm. I'm always a bit awkward as a player because I started out GMing and it's been what I do most.

doppelgreener

It seems I may actually be playing Pathfinder in the future - whether the distant or not-too-distant future depends on the DM!

BESW

Looking forward to having Trogdor run me in a Fate game soon though.

doppelgreener

@BESW That question you asked about compels... is really, really good.

Alex P

@BESW I'll ask you my quibble directly: why is it a compel at all? Why isn't it a thing that just, erm, happens?

BESW

Because as a compel it is explicitly A Thing Which Complicates, and the player has control by either paying a Fate point to keep it from being A Thing Which Complicates or getting a Fate point in exchange for Accepting Complication.

If it were just A Thing Which Happens, it wouldn't be A Thing Which Complicates.

And it wouldn't drive the Fate point economy.

Alex P

12:30 AM

But all narrative complications aren't compels.

BESW

And one of the big reasons for my question is basically "Can this be a compel?"

Is there precedent for it?

I want it to be a compel, is it justified as such?

I'm not asking about how to make it a compel, but whether there's anything which justifies it.

doppelgreener

@AlexP There's a really good reason to treat it as a compel. It has all the hallmarks of a compel - "How about we complicate your life a little more?" - there just isn't an aspect there for it.

mxyzplk

@BESW Howdy

Your FATE question hits on why I'm not much of a FATE fan. It puts too much gamism in my narrativism. If "story" is really paramount I don't want to have jump through aspects and compels to do it.

Zachiel

goodnight

Alex P

12:48 AM

@mxyzplk I wouldn't call that gamism. My understanding is that it really doesn't work very well heads-up (e.g. the GM tries to come up with brutal compels to make you waste points to avoid them), for instance. It's just... well, mechanical "grace notes" underscoring narration and providing a bit of structure. A bit like PTA fan mail, to me.

mxyzplk

@AlexP mechanics overriding the action = gamism in my book, but not interested in a GNS debate, call it "mechanics" then

I find it too constraining when a 'storygame' is actually so highly mechanized

I mean, I can see the vibe of a story version of paint-by-numbers but it's not for me.

doppelgreener

@mxyzplk You don't have to. But this is a hoop it's interesting to jump through at certain points; the same reason it's sometimes interesting to jump through the hoop of "roll to see how well you did."

mxyzplk

I'm sure you can play as fast and loose with FATE as one can with D&D or whatnot from a GM perspective, but in general the FATE community doesn't seem into that, it seems into rule adherence.

Which is fine

doppelgreener

What do you prefer to play, @mxyzplk?

mxyzplk

I've played Dresden, I've made it through all 411 pages of Spirit of the Century, I know the drill

My gaming group plays Pathfinder, Savage Worlds, Alternity, Feng Shui, GURPS, Unknown Armies, Champions, other stuff as the mood takes us

Mutants & Masterminds... what else recently

doppelgreener

12:56 AM

That's quite a variety :O

mxyzplk

We've all played for decades and have already had our leaving the D&D Ghetto (tm) experience

The one kind of game I don't like is those that hit that corner of gamism lane and narration street (not a huge fan of heavy gamism at all really), so 4e and one of the major "new game" strains leave me cold. The more pure storygame strain's fine though.

doppelgreener

What do you consider a pure storygame?

mxyzplk

The Committee for the Exploration of Mysteries, octaNe, InSpectres

not pure storygame per se, just the kind of storygame that is more narrative driven and less game mechanic driven

Lacuna

what else

Cold City, Don't Rest Your Head

Blowback

those are the ones I have. I've got Fiasco but it is more mechanic driven. It's light enough it's still a fun party game though.

Alex P

I think we dislike Fate from opposite directions, Mxy. Though partially it is actually the same direction. I feel like Fate points are everywhere but don't do anything that I care about.

mxyzplk

Well I do agree with that. We pasted FATE aspects/points onto Pathfinder for a campaign or two but we ended up with that same feeling

doppelgreener

1:06 AM

@mxyzplk What makes those pure storygames? I'm curious and trying to get an understanding of it, but I've only played a very limited range of RPGs.

@mxyzplk I wouldn't try to use Fate points in D&D or PF. :I They don't have as much purpose there.

mxyzplk

Whoops sorry gotta go time for the traditional laundry folding over a Dr. Who episode with the kid before her bedtime

doppelgreener

\o/

Have fun!

LitheOhm

1:38 AM

Any PF players in the room atm?

agradine

1:54 AM

Sorry, only PF-adjacent at the moment

BESW

2:09 AM

M'rr. Power went out, probably because of weather.

I suspect the reason it looks like the Fate community is rules-heavy is that rules are easier to talk about.

It's not like I'm getting a lot of RPG.SE questions out of the many times I don't use the rules, or play fast and loose with them.

I want to talk about the rules so I understand them and know exactly what it is I'm ignoring, and how much, when I go off-book.

But this harkens back to some of the very first discussions I had in this chat, about whether RAW is important to understand before you start ignoring it.

When I believe I was called a "schmoo" for asserting that knowing the rules is just as important for breaking them well as for following them accurately.

agradine

One of the fundamental rules of writing is that you shouldn't go about breaking rules unless you understand why the rule is there in the first place and why it's necessary for you to break it

I feel like this relates to a lot of things in life, RPGs included

BESW

It's a fundamental rule of art, which I consider to include writing and RPGs.

Picasso spent years painting a great many traditionally masterful works before he went off-roading.

agradine

I would strongly agree with that

BESW

And it's one reason I have very little respect for D&D Next: they don't seem to be starting from a basis of mastery despite the fact I know they have a decade of experience which gave them at least a modicum of mastery.

agradine

I think for many people (I can relate to my experiences teaching writing) ego gets in the way of respecting the importance of rules

BESW

2:17 AM

My players respect my choices to break the rules because they're confident I know what the rules were for, and am choosing to break them because I want to do something the rules aren't going to support.

In order to earn that respect and keep it, I have to avoid breaking rules I don't understand--unless I say that's what I'm doing and let them know to keep their heads down when the inevitable backfire happens.

agradine

Patience and self-reflection as virtures are also more rare and not as extolled as they ought to be

BESW

I'm at a slight advantage because of my Ruhi training and experience.

agradine

People often want to do want they want to do when they want to do it, without taking the time to learn the right way to do things or the energy to understand why they want to do the thing they want to do

BESW

It's a learned habit.

agradine

Definitely

It just always amazes me how little thought people sometimes give to their own motivations

BESW

2:23 AM

There's a discussion of societal training and the cult of -isms in there, but I'm not currently equipped to have it.

agradine

I could go on for days, but I'll refrain :-P

BESW

Suffice to say, the cult of the individual lends a lot of weight to the notion that "because I want it" is justification and motive enough.

agradine

The glaring problem with that mindset being that "want" is neither a justication nor a motivation, it's a feeling

BESW

It also begs the question of whether anyone except oneself should be considered in making a decision.

agradine

The problem with that is that we have a term for people for who are incapable of considering anyone else's feelings or needs: sociopath

Or Objectivist, but that's whole other can of worms :-P

BESW

2:29 AM

That's a bit extreme. I'm not talking about inability to do it, just about a habit of not doing it.

Anyway.

agradine

But some people (I would argue most people) are social creatures. Interacting with, helping other people meet their own needs, in many ways satisfies our own needs

BESW

One of the reasons I run RPGs is to better learn how to create environments and foster interactions that focus on cooperation and supporting the interests of others.

agradine

Right.

BESW

It's one of the things I'm still dissatisfied with in Fate: the conflict system still has a fundamentally us vs them assumption: two characters have mutually exclusive goals and only one can achieve them.

And while that is a Thing Which Happens, my ideal RPG system would have alternate conflict resolution options.

This is where I want to go with the FIM RPG.

agradine

I prefer to adopt the Echani philosophy when DMing

I'm not trying to defeat my players; I'm trying to design experiences and challenges to help them test themselves and grow stronger from the experience

BESW

2:36 AM

Oh, yes. Definitely.

agradine

Growth through struggle and conflict

BESW

But I'm not talking about GM vs players.

agradine

Ah, I missed that you were talking about characters

BESW

The way most RPGs provide conflict resolution winds up with a winner and a loser.

There is always a winner and a loser.

Or sometimes two losers.

KRyan

@JonathanHobbs I am merely pointing out this reality which may be of relevance to anyone reading this answer. I think it should be incorporated in the answer, but it’s not mine so in a comment it goes. But yes, I do think every answer should provide warning when an option is akin to shooting yourself in the foot. We are supposed to be experts, and those asking a question are not necessarily. To point out a bad option without warning is a disservice, IMO.

BESW

2:37 AM

I want a system that provides a win-win conflict resolution scenario. It should be difficult--very difficult--but it should exist.

agradine

Interesting

KRyan

@BESW Legend has such a system to an extent for social encounters

the Legend social encounter system is a bit wonky, but it does have that as a stated possibility and it was designed with that possibility in mind

BESW

The best I've been able to come up with in Fate is for the two "sides" to be actually fighting a third "abstract" enemy.

@KRyan Interesting. Someday I'll actually buckle down and read Legend.

KRyan

@BESW part of the social encounter's wonkiness is that it's got almost nothing to do with the rest of Legend, so you could easily read just that bit

BESW

Duly noted.

agradine

2:55 AM

In my experience one man's trap class is another man's idea of a good time

BESW

@agradine Heh, yes. Priorities and what the rest of the group are doing count for a lot.

You've seen the No Such Thing as D&D link, right?

Alex P

@BESW Well, another way to do it is to focus in on the protagonist as the, erm, compassionate one in a conflict. If you win your thing, you can instead try to compromise and give your adversary a bit of their thing as well.

(Another way to do it within the framework of a me-vs-you engine.)

BESW

3:12 AM

Hrm.

Magician

@BESW My take on this, and it's something I occasionally ponder, is that current games feature zero-sum conflicts at best, and actively destructive ones most often. You don't create things. You kill people, and take their stuff.

4

BESW

Ooh, good point.

Hmmm.

doppelgreener

3:34 AM

@KRyan I agree an answer should provide a warning when you're shooting yourself in the foot. There's a recent answer on the 4e templates question that said: "You could do this instead by picking up the vampire class(? can't remember if it is one), but it sucks so you probably don't want to."

But "it is mathematically not as good as other options because you get a -2 for a +1 and this is inferior to things like power attack" are... not shooting yourself in the foot. They're just not as good as you could have. But your foot is still intact, and you can still be capable.

There might be better options, and it may not be the best option, and it may not be a greatsword or whatever, but it's not warning-label territory.

agradine

@BESW are you familiar at all with non-violent communication?

It is sometimes referred to as "compassionate communication" or "needs-based communication"

John Craven

I think the mechanics of story games provide for lots of win-win stuff if not the outcomes, if that makes sense.

doppelgreener

@agradine What is this? o:

Is this something which covers most human interaction (except for fighting tournaments / wars / etc)?

agradine

@JonathanHobbs It was something I was thinking about in terms of win-win outcomes

It's a conflict resolution style that based on boiling human conflicts down to universal human needs

BESW

Nonviolent Communication

Nonviolent Communication (abbreviated NVC, also called Compassionate Communication or Collaborative Communication NVC often functions as a conflict resolution process. It focuses on three aspects of communication: self-empathy (defined as a deep and compassionate awareness of one's own inner experience), empathy (defined as listening to another with deep compassion), and honest self-expression (defined as expressing oneself authentically in a way that is likely to inspire compassion in others). NVC is based on the idea that all human beings have the capacity for compassion and only resort...

agradine

3:49 AM

The idea is that every interpersonal conflict can be boiled down to indvidual's needs not being met

The assumption is that there is sufficient resources for meeting everyone's needs

BESW

I don't really agree with its particulars, but it's a very cool thing to have exist.

John Craven

I don't know if you guys have played Polaris but even though it's ultimately a game about corrupting / avoid corruption, the "conflict" as it plays out tends to be very win-win in nature. There's a whole set of mechanics around one side proposing something and the other side saying "but only if..." and providing a proviso.

agradine

So the struggle comes not from me getting what I want OR you getting you want, but in finding a way so WE get our needs met

I studied it in college. I was never completely sold on a few of its basic assumptions, but your idea of turning conflicts from win-lose to a win-win made me think of it

BESW

Hmm.

agradine

In the beginning when we were learning the basics it actually felt kind of felt very game-y

Separating feelings from these universal human needs, and then exploring solutions that meet everyone's needs with the least amount of compromise

Making sure whatever compromises become necessary don't take away too much from other needs

BESW

3:55 AM

@agradine "Hey, I found the ↑↑↓↓←→←→BA of people!"

@BESW ha!

Looks like 4 chan

@Rouke [wave]

In any case, it seemed like something that might fit in for what you're looking for

BESW

It does get me thinking in different directions.

KRyan

4:01 AM

@JonathanHobbs You are choosing to do less than the default option (i.e. using a weapon sized for you). The rules are intended to discourage and punish the choice to use an over-sized weapon. I think this is important to point out. The answer (and Paizo, which is just getting tacked on a long list of terrible things that Paizo does) does the opposite of that by pointing out the iconic using it.

BESW

One major challenge is that I don't want it to be a system that's just about helping each other.

Rouke

I'm very tired and need to stay awake, maybe talking to someone may help. Hence why I'm here :P

I just found out about this chat thing. Are you guys regulars?

BESW

Some of us are in here pretty regularly, others not so much.

This particular room is mostly geared toward tabletop RPGs, like Dungeons and Dragons, though we often go pretty far off-topic.

agradine

@BESW Just finished reading that article you posted, good stuff

Rouke

Oh, I see. I don't think I've ever played a tabletop RPG.

Kyle Sykes

4:06 AM

@Rouke I mostly just lurk from time to time.

Rouke

but was always fascinated by D&D

Kyle Sykes

You should try one sometime

BESW

@agradine No Such Thing as D&D? Yeah. @Magician's got a good think going.

Rouke

Can Magic be played as a tabletop game?

John Craven

Magic the LCG?

Rouke

4:09 AM

I'm thinking of The Gathering

LCG? What is that?

John Craven

right, I was hypothetically turning it into an LCG, which sort of meets some of the criteria for a tabletop board-type game

living card game

Kyle Sykes

That is a good article @BESW, pretty typical of my discussions with other people who play D&D

John Craven

It's where you have a fixed set of cards/decks (i.e. you can't really go out and buy new booster packs for your deck, although the Star Wars LCG comes out with a new expansion like monthly) and you play against each other using the decks you have

agradine

I still need to look at Next and see what all the hubbub was about

John Craven

so kind of like MtG only without so much of the pay-to-win

BESW

4:11 AM

@Rouke Not as such. Usually in a tabletop RPG each person takes on the role of a single character, with one person orchestrating the rest of the world, and they work together to tell a story about those characters, using rules which determine what a character is good at, and whether they succeed at what they try.

doppelgreener

@KRyan You're choosing to use a weapon that hits harder in exchange for hitting less frequently. Which is very cool. It seems like a trade-off instead of a punishment. And mathematically, it may do less than a suitably sized weapon would over the course of combat. But depending on the level of optimization present: a player may not give a damn about that.

Rouke

That actually sounds awesome, what are some of the most popular tabletop games?

BESW

Dungeons and Dragons is the one most people know of.

Rouke

I see. I think there was one called the King's Throne, which was a favorite of on my friends.

doppelgreener

The roleplaying side of having a large sword could be worth the numeric lack of effectiveness, just as playing a barbarian could be worth not playing a cleric or druid for the sake of roleplay. Numeric effectiveness is only one potential goal in a game; it is not important to everyone. I can get your perspective, but from other perspectives: it's not important to warn about just because of reasons set in a different frame of what's important.

Rouke

4:15 AM

one*

agradine

I don't think that every answer needs to be about (or even address) optimization, because clearly not every players cares about it

I mean, questions specifically about optimization should be answered that way, but I don't think it's necessary for questions that are more "how do I design this character/pull off this concept"

BESW

@Rouke Other popular ones right now seem to be Fate, Shadowrun, World of Darkness, Star Wars, Warhammer 40k, and Savage Worlds.

agradine

Not to say that answers that address optimization issues towards those questions are wrong either, quite the opposite

There's room for non-optimized and optimized answers both

Does something like the Monkey Grip feat exist in Pathfinder?

doppelgreener

@agradine I agree. I'm one of those players who wants to be decently capable, but I do not expect much optimization. I will play a character who's fun to play.

BESW

@Rouke Hm. I'm not familiar with that one--although there are hundreds of published RPGs, thousands if you include out-of-print ones and amateur ones published online.

doppelgreener

4:19 AM

@agradine No, I don't think there's anything quite like Monkey Grip in Pathfinder

agradine

@JonathanHobbs some of my favorite characters were less than decently capable, or very capable, but in subtle and unusual ways

I once played an eight year old kid who was also a fairly powerful telepath

His physical stats were garbage and nobody really knew what he was capable of, so they just shoved him in a safe corner whenever combat started, where I could throw around powers to help out

doppelgreener

@agradine neat. C:

Metool

Aaaaaa, headache.

agradine

Also whenever we needed to clear customs or talk our way out of a situation (we were pirates) I would keep butting in whenever things would turn south. They eventually just let me tag along because I was some sort of good luck charm

BESW

I'ma lie down for half an hour before chugging coffee and going to a meeting.

ttfn

doppelgreener

4:31 AM

@KyleSykes Keeping-you-posted thing: I'm going to start a dev blog (probably this evening) for the fate tabletop tool. I have some things to post in it! Also I am trying to find a name for the tool that resonates. Fate Core Online is the working title. BESW suggested "Fate Core Online: the Bloggening" for the blog name.

agradine

@BESW g'night

doppelgreener

So I guess then I can keep THE ENTIRE INTERNET posted via the dev blog. Or at least the portion of it that will read the dev blog.

Kyle Sykes

@JonathanHobbs, thanks for letting me know! I'm pretty terrible with names though..

I like Fate Core Online

Simple and clean, gets the point across.

Magician

I'd be a bit worried about using their name like that without getting permission first.

Kyle Sykes

A fair point

doppelgreener

4:42 AM

@KyleSykes Sure does! I like it too. Except ^ that bit is concerning to me as well (this morning I even considered whether I might need to contact Evil Hat about just using 'Fate' in the name in reference to their product), and I plan to support Dresden Files, Spirit of the Century and possibly other past and future non-Core releases further down the line.

I'm wondering if I might happen across a clever referential name, e.g. naming the Fate tool after the memorable name of a prophet or Greek/Roman Fate or something like that. Like how the editor for the Python programming language (which often uses Monty Python quotes and references in its tutorials) is named IDLE (after Eric Idle, a Monty Python member).

haven't found anything so far though :)

roll20 is also nicely referential, but roll4df doesn't seem so catchy (and is in the realm of copycat names so I'd prefer not to use that one anyway)

Magician

Fatum. Fate Connection. Fated Connection. Fated.

agradine

Atropos

agradine

5:06 AM

Moira is the greek plural term for the three fates, but now we're getting a little esoteric

the Norns fill the same roll in norse

doppelgreener

@Magician one of those seems like it might actually be free as a domain name, but I'll have to check later!

BESW

brainwheeze: 4df - forty f - forty eff - forty fate - 40 effects - fate forty

doppelgreener

@agradine I would like to be able to use that one but it's taken ;_;

@BESW I feel bad saying this since you are being charitable with your brain cycles here but those don't resonate very well Dx

BESW

Also: bronze rule - bronzed - bronzer - three rules - third rule

bronzed destiny, destiny in bronze...

bronzegames.com

doppelgreener

5:21 AM

that is actually a p. cool angle...

BESW

bronze fractals, bronze angles

doppelgreener

and fits in with the site possibly going on to use the term fractal

BESW

Meeting now, ta.

doppelgreener

Bye! Thanks!

krasawave

6:22 AM

hellow

Could someone tell me how I would progress if I choose a Golden Dragon as my character in epic campaign of "Level 25", if the table has 6 level adjustment, stopping the young age?

doppelgreener

7:32 AM

@KyleWilley I've edited my answer heavily.

Your answer in this case approaches a 4e item from the 3.5e perspective that descriptions of items or powers are meaningful in any way. In 4e's philosophy, they're not: things work the way the rules text say they do, and if the description stands in stark contrast to that somehow, the description's simply inaccurate.

In addition, regarding damage of no type:

> If a power doesn’t specify a damage type, the damage has no type. Most weapon attack powers deal damage that has no type. It is simply physical damage.

Whilst it might say "it is simply physical damage"... in the previous sentence, it says it deals damage of no type. The physical damage is just a mental image. There still is no physical damage type - unless something happens to say it deals "1d6 physical damage".

Contrast to 3.5e, which you appear to be used to, 4e is just very clear and strict with its rules. Nothing actually does deal "1d6 physical damage", so it isn't a damage type, and anything that deals "1d6 damage" does not implicitly deal any kind of damage type - it just has none.

BESW

> A power’s flavor text helps you understand what happens when you use a power and how you might describe it when you use it. You can alter this description as you like, to fit your own idea of what your power looks like. Your wizard’s magic missile spell, for example, might create phantasmal skulls that howl through the air to strike your opponent, rather than simple bolts of magical energy. When you need to know the exact effect, look at the rules text that follows. (PHB1 55)

Both the PHB1 (55) and the Rules Compendium (114) provide an exhaustive list of damage types.

The Rules compendium then states:

> If a power has one of these keywords, it deals the associated type of damage. The exception is poison, which is a keyword for both a damage type and an effect type.

It later (115) discusses what happens when abilities lose damage keywords, and its pretty explicit that there is no "default" damage type which crops up in their place.

The damage types are: acid, cold, fire, force, lightning, necrotic, poison, psychic, radiant, thunder.

doppelgreener

Thank you for those!

I don't have my rules compendium on me. :(

BESW

7:48 AM

This is a very clear-cut issue.

@JonathanHobbs I think the idea of a "bronze fractal" might have potential.

But I'm having trouble coming up with a good alternate phrase for "fractal."

doppelgreener

@BESW I think so too.

BESW

BTW, the "magic item fluff line" quote is repeated near-exact on page 279 of the Rules Compendium.

> The next entry gives a brief description of the item, sometimes explaining what it does in plain language, other times offering flavorful information about its appearance, origin, effect, or place in the world. This material isn't rules text; the item's exact effect is described in the entries that follow.

doppelgreener

@BESW Thanks. :D

BESW

This isn't rocket surgery, it just requires being willing to let go of 3.5 notions and accept that 4e does its own thing.

The text is quite explicit and consistent.

I'm editing your answer a little. The quote on powers is kind of distracting, so I'll just mention it.

fractalsinbronze.com
bronzedfractals.com
thefractalbronzer.com

doppelgreener

@BESW Ta, that was a good idea.

Nuts, bronzer on its own is taken.

... then again that reminds me too much of brazzers for comfort so possibly a good thing.

BESW

8:05 AM

fractaltavern.com

doppelgreener

A tavern with adjacent taverns and a tavern inside, which have adjacent taverns and taverns inside, which in turn have adjacent taverns and a tavern inside, which...

BESW

Doctor Who did that... at least three times.

doppelgreener

There's an SCP like this.

BESW

theinfinitefractal.com

doppelgreener

It was a little metal trinket placed inside a church hall. The church grew adjacent rooms and doorways to them (without affecting the outside). Those rooms grew adjacent doorways and rooms. A search and rescue team was dispatched to hunt down where in all this mess the trinket was hidden. As they went along, the rooms became more and more absurd.

BESW

8:10 AM

extrabronze.com

doppelgreener

One man kept a diary and eventually found himself in a room in which everything was made of paper, so he had plenty of writing material to expand his (recently filled-up) diary with.

Eventually someone found the trinket, removed it, and the entire fractal innards of the church collapsed. They found his diary (and the extra pages) among the rubble.

@BESW that is neat (and... when you think about it, redundant xD)

BESW

(the)bronzeroom.com

Bronze Table?

ExtraTableSpace.com

bronzelachesis.com

Ananke's Table

doppelgreener

8:34 AM

@BESW ... I like this most of all so far

It beats Fate Table, which has some unfortunately clunky alliteration.

doppelgreener

8:54 AM

(and the contration, fatable, is, er...)

Trajan

hi there

doppelgreener

@Trajan Hello!

BESW

Hi.

@JonathanHobbs I briefly toyed with using a fancy symbol for the "a" in "fatble" to get the pronunciation.

Briefly.

doppelgreener

x)

good idea at least xD

pity it wouldn't go down so well in execution

Trajan

discussing domain name again for Fate Fruit Core ?

BESW

9:00 AM

Yup.

I still think Fruit Core would be an awesome choice.

doppelgreener

haha, I'm not feeling as strongly about that as you do xD

though I am still drawing blanks myself

I need to go eat! Back later.

Trajan

what is the goal of this site ? Does it need to be well referenced (to be found by anyone from keywords) ?

BESW

Its purpose is to provide a roll20-like experience for Fate games.

That is, an online "tabletop" for playing Fate games over the Internet.

Trajan

so we want this site to be found when googling "fate online"

BESW

Probably, yes.

But Hobbs isn't keen on requiring Evil Hat's blessing for the name of his site or its domain.

I think he should ask them if he needs it.

Trajan

9:07 AM

I think so, too.

BESW

Sounds like "The Bronze Table" is the current choice, and search keywords would have to be found within the site.

Sven B.

Anyone here knows about C.O.P.S. ?

BESW

I'm going to assume you don't mean the 1988 TV show.

Sven B.

@BESW Nope. It's an RPG. I believe it's French, though, so I don't know if it is much known abroad...

Trajan

@SvenB. Heard about it, never been introduced to the game.

BESW

9:13 AM

Well, my knowledge of RPGs is sadly small, so it's no surprise I haven't heard of it.

If it hasn't been mentioned in this chat, I'm probably unaware of it.

What's it about?

[he said, rashly assuming that it wasn't a setting-agnostic system]

Sven B.

From a cursory glance, it seems to hold some similarities with the 1988 TV show. The PC are members of an elite police squad known as the C.O.P.S. in a near future dystopian Los Angeles.

Trajan

3.PF Spellcasters being quadratic, is there anything to balance them in an E6 game ?

Sven B.

@BESW They fight crime.

2

BESW

9:44 AM

@Trajan Allowing Tome of Battle would help.

If you reduce regular AC without reducing touch AC too, that might help.

(Depends on the party makeup and its weak points.)

Trajan

@BESW Don't know this book, wouldn't it help warriors instead of spellcasters ?

BESW

@Trajan Yup.

It's basically Wizards' first 4e beta test, in a 3.5 environment, and goes a good way toward making martial classes able to hold their own in a spellcasting environment.

It's very very hard to reduce the power of spellcasters in an evenhanded and predictable way, so the best thing to do is to boost martial classes.

Allowing/encouraging non-casters to use Tome of Battle classes --or even just getting a couple of their powers through feats-- is a good and simple step.

Trajan

I thought 1st level spellcaster where weaker than warriors (unless the GM plans things accordingly), that's why I'm asking if there's anything to do to help spellcasters in a E6 game where they won't have their 14 levels of "I will rain fire upon you, puny mortals"

BESW

Pathfinder makes their 0th-level spells at-will, which at least gives them something useful to do when they run out of spell slots.

(But breaks things in other directions.)

Thing is, level 5 is about when spellcasters really hit turbo.

So an E6 game is going to have to deal with both sides of The Spellcaster Balance Problem.

Sven B.

What's E6?

BESW

9:56 AM

@SvenB. A specially customized hack of D&D 3.5 wherein major character advancement stops at level 6, because that's a commonly-acknowledge "sweet spot" where characters are powerful enough to competently influence their world without being so powerful as to trivialize most challenges.

Trajan

@SvenB. e6

doppelgreener

@Trajan Ideally yes, though fate online itself is taken unless I go for a non-.com domain name.

@BESW I'm ok with it, actually.

I'm sure they'll be cool about it one way or another, but I am concerned they may have good reason to decline and ask I find a different name, in the interests of protecting their brand.

BESW

@JonathanHobbs Better to find out before comitting than to get asked after the fact, I'd say.

Trajan

@JonathanHobbs FateOnli.ne ?

and FateOnly.ne for those who don't understand TLD puns

doppelgreener

@Trajan ... that's very clever. :)

Trajan

10:04 AM

@JonathanHobbs I guess you'd just had to find a registrar allowing nigerien registration

though I don't have a clue about potential requierements

doppelgreener

@Trajan Welp, unfortunately... .ne is broken.

BESW

I am not fond of address gimmicks.

For the same reason that RPGs (including Fate) don't have cutesy acronyms anymore.

doppelgreener

@BESW I don't mind them. They seem to be our fun middle ground now that basically every good name in the .com namespace is being taken up.

Trajan

@BESW not including C.O.P.S (but it's a fairly accurate acronym, standing for Central Organization for Public Security)

doppelgreener

Eventally we're going to move toward actually using stuff like: www.mcg.cricket, or something... but for now that's what we've got

BESW

10:09 AM

@Trajan Yeah, that doesn't seem to be Clever for Clever's Sake.

Trajan

@BESW there must be a trope about this. Agents of SHIELD pulled it quite well in its pilot.

@JonathanHobbs you could go for FateOnli.net but it's... not so clever.

BESW

Fun with Acronyms

bronzetab.le

Trajan

"backronyms", I like that word

fa.teonli.net

BESW

"Fat Eon Line T"?

doppelgreener

@Trajan Doesn't land as well :(

BESW

10:16 AM

FractalBronze.rs

BronzeFrac.tel

doppelgreener

oh dear, i don't want to touch the .tel namespace xD

i am not keen on being filed away as a telecommunications site.

BESW

Didn't think so, but I had to throw it out there.

doppelgreener

Fair enough :)

BESW

I like BronzeTab.le and FractalBronze.rs because they mean something with and without the extension.

Makes the domain cleverness a bonus rather than a justification for the site address.

doppelgreener

@BESW I would hopefully not settle on a domain name just as a justification for having an address! hm

BESW

10:29 AM

I'm not sure how hard it is to get a lunar domain without getting a star named for you, though.

doppelgreener

Extraterrestrial real estate

Extraterrestrial real estate is land on other planets or natural satellites or parts of space that is sold either through organisations or by individuals. Ownership of extraterrestrial real estate is not recognised by any authority. Nevertheless, some private individuals and organisations have claimed ownership of celestial bodies, such as the Moon, and are actively involved in "selling" parts of them through certificates of ownership termed "Lunar deeds", "Martian deeds" or similar. These "deeds" have no legal standing. History The topic of real estate on celestial objects has been pre...

Ha.

This is um.

BESW

But "Bronze Table" seems to be your best pick so far.

doppelgreener

This is the sort of quaint that then makes you groan and head-desk with enough force to break a table.

0

Q: Starting a campaign with model dragons and their HIT DICE, without additional class

Could someone tell me how I would progress if I choose a Golden Dragon as my character in epic campaign of "Level 25", if the table has 6 level adjustment, stopping the young age? Would like to calculate the level adjustment to the next level his age category?

dnd-3.5e

Could someone who understands this question edit it so it makes more sense?

I'm gonna vote to close it as unclear for the time being.

Trajan

10:49 AM

nigerien internet seems fine : sonitel.ne

doppelgreener

@Trajan Oh, good. But I still might consider finding a domain not hosted in the third world. :(

Trajan

@JonathanHobbs sounds wise

BESW

11:06 AM

@TheoG Hi!

BESW

11:47 AM

We're thrilled to be at VERY special screening event. We'll bring you more info soon... #doctorwho #missingepisodes

Tweeted by classicdw on October 10, 2013 at 11:18 AM

doppelgreener

Hahaha.

BESW

That is official.

doppelgreener

So they're serious and not trolling?

I heard they were releasing some of the first doctor who's last episodes on DVD.

BESW

All kinds of rumors have been flying around, right up to and including that they found ALL 106 missing episodes in a country that only ever got 77 episodes (including non-missing ones).

doppelgreener

I did hear about that one

BESW

11:49 AM

But now the Beeb is saying "Yes, something was found and we'll tell you about it soon."

doppelgreener

\o/

BESW

The most "reliable" unofficial source I've seen says it's two First Doctor episodes.

If so, I'd like it to be the end of Marco Polo or The Tenth Planet.

If it's Second Doctor, The Power of the Daleks would be ideal... but I'm not sure how painful it'd be to only get part of that story.

doppelgreener

@BESW it is the first two episodes of a three-episode plot

(that is my guess at least :D)

BESW

A three-episode plot? That narrows it down.

By which I mean [narrows eyes, double-checks charts] no three-episode serial is missing, in whole or in part.

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