The Reading Room

Rand al'Thor

00:04

@PrinceNorthLæraðr 111 = Hamlet. Aza was 80 here, 20 on Puzzling.

Prince North Læraðr

Ah

Rand al'Thor

It's funny how much overlap there is between the Puzzling and Literature communities. SFF and Lit, I can understand, but what do Puzzling and Lit have in common?

Other than a poetry tag :-P

Prince North Læraðr

Idk if Me, Mith, Bobble, You, Aza, BeastlyGerbil... oh you're right

Rand al'Thor

The other Gareth (M) has posted here too.

Prince North Læraðr

Really? Wow

wow

Hehe, looks like he's carried over his tradition of never asking questions :P

b_jonas

00:17

@GarethRees They both (mostly) lived in the 19th century. People did duels back then. I think those count as fights. And I think Tolstoy would win, but we can't be sure.

@GarethRees Money!

Tsundoku

14:35

Last day for the Nick Joaquin challenge; seven questions asked so far.

We'll be picking the next topic challenge soon.

Tsundoku

14:52

Peter Solis Nery is a Filipino author who writes in Hiligaynon, English and Filipino. See also Peter Solis Nery's website. When looking for works available in English, I found only books that were independently published or by "CreateSpace" (Amazon).

I came across Peter Solis Nery while looking for literature from the Philippines in languages other than English. I still haven't found an author of Tagalog literature whose works are available in English. Apparently, the publishing world has little interest in the Philippines.

^ Even the works of Nick Joaquin, who wrote in English, are hard to find. Outside of the Philippines, there's only the Penguin volume The Woman Who Had Two Navels and Other Tales of the Tropical Gothic.

Bookworm

0

Q: Does the Order of Melchizedek's professed goal to bring the Vatican Council to the masses refer to a historical reality?

In Nick Joaquin's story or novella "The Order of Melchizedek", Guia, the main character's younger sister, has become a member of a religious organisation that is referred to as the Order of Melchizedek. Another member of the "order", Sister Juana, explains, Well, Mr. Estiva, we try you might say...

Eddie Kal

15:10

> Rejection of colonial self
According to critics, Nick Joaquín is said to be a writer who sees the essence of being Filipino in the return to the Filipino's pre-Hispanic past.[6] National identity is a very important topic for Nick Joaquín as evident in his works such as La Naval de Manila, After the Picnic and Summer Solstice. Noticeably in his works namely After the Picnic and Summer Solstice, the recurring theme of the rejection of the colonial self can be seen in the conflicts of the protagonist such as Chedeng, from After the Picnic, to reject Father Chavez's white-ego-ideals. In Ched…

This is what's really interesting about Nick Joaquin

Tsundoku

16:24

@EddieKal It is really unfortunate that much of this work has gone out of print. The Penguin anthology I have does not contain "La Naval de Manila" or "After the Picnic".

Eddie Kal

16:43

@Tsundoku In this case people should read secondary texts. I forgot if I shared in this room some analytical passages from Joaquin scholarship or not but there's a fair number of Filipino have Western scholars who study Joaquin who are worth reading.

Reviews and critical analysis work in a similar way to synopses except they are better. They explain the colonial dynamics and author's life

What's really needed is to dive deeper than the surface meaning and understand why they (writers collectively) write

bobble

16:58

I've started writing my answer. Is there some accepted format the page-number citations should be in? My current plan is to note my edition at the start of the answer, and give both the chapter and page number below the quote.

b_jonas

17:11

@bobble That sounds good. If you can link to an online table of contents that would be nice, or if there isn't one, you might want to mention the chapter names too, but those are extras. This can help because in some books, the chapter numbers needn't match between editions or translations.

Eddie Kal

@bobble I'd recommend MLA, standard in literature.

b_jonas

In particular catdir.loc.gov/catdir/toc/ecip0519/2005026697.html is the table of contents for Tolkien's Lord of the Rings, which I used to match chapter numbers with the translation, since it apparently has chapter numbers shifted at one point.

bobble

I'm working off of a ~~slightly~~ very battered paperback copy, and have no idea how to find an online edition.

b_jonas

The format itself doesn't matter too much, just include as much details as you can, since this isn't printed on paper so the length limit is much longer.

@bobble I didn't say an online edition, I said an online table of contents only.

Occasionally you can find one of those on the websites of book stores or used book stores even if there's no complete online edition.

bobble

Does this work?

b_jonas

17:15

Or sometimes it's available from an online preview of the book that includes some of the work only. Or in rare cases, for new books, sometimes the publisher's website has one.

@bobble Yes, I can see a table of contents. If it matches the TOC of your edition then it's good.

Sci Fi SE chat might be able to help more because this is a famous book.

bobble

It matches except for lacking the Introduction and Acknowledgements. I assume that's fine.

Sorry if I'm asking too many questions :)

Gareth Rees

19:02

@bobble In the case of a much-reprinted work like Ender's Game it is doubtful if many of your readers will have the same edition, so don't feel obliged to give page numbers in addition to chapters (but do put them in if you want to, it will help you if you need to revisit or edit the answer later).

I recommend quoting more generously than you would in an academic context. Back when journals were printed on paper, it was necessary to keep quotes short to save on space, and scholars were expected to be able to consult the original if they wanted more context. But here at Stack Exchange there's little constraint on space, and the readers aren't scholars and so will benefit from a bit more context

bobble

I'm using this format right below the quote: "<book name>, Chapter <chapter number>: <chapter name>, page <page number(s)>". (Adding in a book-name note since I realized there are some really good quotes in Speaker for the Dead)

Gareth Rees

Works for me!

Bookworm

21:05

0

Q: A Clockwork Orange: Latvian translation of Nadsat

Does anyone happen to know if A Clockwork Orange (by Anthony Burgess) has been translated into Latvian? If so, is there a Latvian word list for Nadsat, the fictional teen slang in the book, and is it available online (even just an excerpt)? The usual suspects (Wikipedia and your favorite search e...

translation fictional-languages

Tsundoku

21:27

@bobble If you go to the trouble of adding page numbers, I would also add the publisher and the year of publication.

bobble

I don't know how to find that for my (dad's) copy of Speaker for the Dead

The Ender's Game copy is easier to figure out, since it has "Author's Definitive Edition" on the back cover

Tsundoku

That information is usually not on the back cover but on the page just after the title page.

bobble

The only dates are year of copyright, month + year of first printing, and month + year of mass market printing

Sorry. I feel like I should know this stuff.

Tsundoku

21:54

If the copy you own is a mass market paperback, then you choose the year of mass market printing. (The earlier date may refer to the publication of a hardcover version.)

bobble

I'll use that, then. Thanks!

Bookworm

22:18

0

Q: Gore Vidal’s book about the Mexican-American war - was anything published?

I was watching a video on YouTube where an elderly Gore Vidal made mention that he was working on a book about the Mexican-American war. In the video Gore Vidal was already in a wheelchair but he was still very witty. I suspect he passed away before completing the manuscript. Does anyone know ...

story-identification historical-context

Tsundoku

22:44

A brand new tag for our @PrinceNorthLæraðr : gore-vidal

Prince North Læraðr

Oooh

Done

Tsundoku

I need to review 710 more suggested edits to get the Steward badge.

Prince North Læraðr

I see

Are you insinuating something?

Tsundoku

Me? No-o-o-o!

bobble

Would it be helpful for me to go around suggesting edits? I'm usually good with grammar & typo fixes, but I'm not sure if that would be helpful (especially if it's on an old post I found while archive-diving)

Prince North Læraðr

22:52

@Tsundoku Well, I need 239 more tag wiki edits for copy editor....

Collusion much?

@bobble Maybe you can edit old, unanswered posts? You can both fix typos and bump them up to garner maybe attention

Tsundoku

Collusion? We'll have no Kellyanne Conway to deny it, you know.

bobble

@PrinceNorthLæraðr swap the words in "fix both"

Prince North Læraðr

Don't overdo it though, because you don't want to flood the front page with all the old posts

bobble

Otherwise you're talking about two kinds of typos

Tsundoku

LOL!

Prince North Læraðr

22:54

Tsundoku, I think you found your new bestie

bobble

oh, also "garner more", not "garner maybe"

If you want I can keep pointing out all your chat typos :)

Tsundoku

I will welcome the suggested edits. I really wonder how many typos can still be found on the site, considering we have always had many edits to fix typos in the past.

Prince North Læraðr

Good grief, now I have two people making fun of my grammar/spelling

@Tsundoku cough mostly made by you cough

:P

Tsundoku

@PrinceNorthLæraðr I hope you mean the edits, not the typos.

Prince North Læraðr

No, I make the typos and increase your edit count

Bobble you can just look through all my posts and probably find enough typos to fix

bobble

22:57

Would discussing how the Giant's Drink is a parallel to the climatic space battle be in-scope for my answer to the question about the symbolism of the Giant's Drink?

Or should I stick to just talking about the Giant's Drink itself?

Prince North Læraðr

@bobble Doesn't seem to be a problem for me, but I don't really know Ender's Game

We're pretty lax on our rules on answering, as long as you don't go completely off tangent, you should be good

bobble

I'm also worried about the answer being too long - even without that discussion, it's over 2 pages of 12-pt Times New Roman in my Google Docs draft

Prince North Læraðr

Hold on, let me see how long the other answers are: I think that might be a bit too long

Tsundoku

I haven't read Ender's Game either. However, does a discussion of the Giant's Drink answer the question of the symbolism of the Mind Game in general?

bobble

I tend to write really long in drafts and then cut down later.

@Tsundoku no, but the question does specifically ask about the Mind Game in particular

Tsundoku

23:02

There is a length limit for answers, but I have never encountered it. Gareth has, though.

bobble

> What is the symbolism of the Mind Game, and the various areas and activities therein (especially the Giant's Drink)?

The entire Mind Game is probably too much for one answer, since there's a LOT going on there

Prince North Læraðr

@bobble Yeah, it might be a bit too long

bobble

What is "it" referring to?

Prince North Læraðr

This answer by Tsundoku is fairly long, and is about 1 1/2 pages in Google Docs

@bobble Your current response

Oh wait

Nope it's 3 1/2 pages long never mind

You should be fine

@Tsundoku Hehe, wouldn't be surprised if he did

@bobble Do you think the question might be too broad/needs to focus it's premises?

Tsundoku

@PrinceNorthLæraðr @bobble Gareth's answer to a question about Bilbo’s song of Eärendil was so long he had to be split it into two answers ...

Prince North Læraðr

23:07

Bwahahaha

~~It's a ploy to get more upvotes!~~

Tsundoku

The Community bot flagged the answer as "excessively long".

Prince North Læraðr

Was it though?

He got 22+32+24 upvotes from one post :P

bobble

If it was about the entirety of the Mind Game, I would definitely consider that very broad. There are a lot of sub-areas in the Mind Game, some that get less attention, some (at least 3 that I can think of) that get a lot of page-space. Then there's the idea of the Mind Game as a whole, the function of it, and you also have to consider some of the other books...

But the actual question itself is mostly focused on the Giant's Drink, so I'm answering that part

welp, remembered wrong

Tsundoku

Well, according to a discussion on 13 July, the question was too broad.

bobble

The last 2 paragraphs are Giant's Drink stuff, the rest is general Mind Game

Tsundoku

23:11

I won't be able to judge the answer, since I'm not familiar with the novel.

Prince North Læraðr

@Tsundoku I think if an answer requires two extremely long answer, it might be too broad :P

Tsundoku

Well, there are question where that is obvious that they require a long answer, and question where it isn't until you start doing the research.

bobble

I have a tendency to write longer because of how my English classes have required fluffy essays... trying to break out of it.

Prince North Læraðr

oh my english teacher HATEs that

Tsundoku

"Fluffy", that's one thing I have never been able to do.

(How) have the interpretations of Macbeth's ending evolved over time? might require a book-length answer, but it's hard to say without doing a ton of research.

bobble

23:16

My latest English teacher used the class as a way to spread ~~propaganda~~ alternative ideas about how to interpret books, expound on great length about quotes she said proved her thesis, and then all but require us to write essays that agreed wholeheartedly with her. So. I made fluff.

Prince North Læraðr

@Tsundoku Go off tangent and use a bunch of adjectives and write as though you're a seventh-grader trying to sound like an academic professor. That's how to do fluff

bobble

Repeat the same line of analysis 3 different ways, is more like it.

Prince North Læraðr

Ah, that too

bobble

And insert unnecessarily complicated synonyms.

Prince North Læraðr

Write the exact same thing in five different ways

Tsundoku

23:18

When I review a project report, I ruthlessly cut or rewrite that sort of fluff.

bobble

Important Life Skill: how to make a 2-page essay into a 5-page essay by inserting fluff

Tsundoku

I find that disrespectful to readers because it implies that they have nothing else or nothing more important to do with their time.

But, yes, it's a skill of sorts.

b_jonas

@bobble I hate that, when a teacher teaches his opinion or style but presents it as if it was necessary or the only reasonable opinion.

bobble

Hey, it made getting As on the essays easy!

b_jonas

@GarethRees Yeah, I often include long quotes, that's what made me ask scifi.meta.stackexchange.com/q/3577/4918

@GarethRees Yes, and sadly we still couldn't get rid of all the traditions that were only necessary to save paper.

@bobble That's no problem, just list the date that is in there, that's what people will know, unless it's obviously a half century later reprint.

bobble

23:24

It's a beat-up hardcover bought off a library's Used Books sale.

b_jonas

@Tsundoku If they run out here, there's always Sci Fi SE too.

Tsundoku

@b_jonas Oh, do people make many typos on SFF SE?

b_jonas

@Tsundoku I have, but I think they increased the limit since.

@Tsundoku Yes, but even more grammar errors that someone could fix. Some of them are fixed already of course.

If you want to find something, look through all English verbs and check what the most idiomatic tense would be to say them, I never understand how that works

Tsundoku

I see. That could be a trick to increase my edit count on that site :-)

b_jonas

Typos is trickier, if I pay attention I write very few, but sometimes I post something hastily and don't copyedit it, then the same post can have many typos, especially when I'm transcribing a long quote.

@Tsundoku If increasing the edit count is what you want, I recommend looking at fresh posts and the moderation queues.

Not specifically just my posts.

@PrinceNorthLæraðr I recommend scifi.stackexchange.com/a/112543/4918 , it's a narrow question where DVK gave a very good very long answer.

Tsundoku

23:31

Anyone can make typos. I've lost count of the number of times I had to edit my own question titles within minutes of posting them ...

b_jonas

@GarethRees literature.stackexchange.com/a/15610/139 got deleted. I'm sorry, it's a great answer.

Should we migrate it, even manually?

It would be worth to save the answer.

How did it even get deleted by Community? It has positive score.

Tsundoku

@b_jonas Where would you migrate it to?

b_jonas

And locked.

Tsundoku

The question was close-voted (for being off topic), after which Gareth deleted the answer. Closed question without an answer (or only deleted answers) eventually get deleted by the Community user.

b_jonas

@Tsundoku Someone, maybe Gareth, suggested History SE, I don't know if that works, I'm not active on that site; I could ask Mythology SE and Sci Fi SE if they want it; failing those we can host it somewhere off-site.

@Tsundoku Oh, Gareth deleted the answer? That's the part I missed then.

literature.stackexchange.com/posts/15610/timeline doesn't say so

Tsundoku

23:40

@b_jonas The question is also still closed on SFF SE. That's something I can do nothing about. But if Mythology SE is interested in the question, I can see if I can reopen the version on Lit SE and migrate it.

@b_jonas Ah, it seems you can't see that information.

b_jonas

@Tsundoku I don't think Mythology will be, but I can ask. I canl also ask thesffblog.

Gareth Rees

@Tsundoku I didn't delete the answer.

Tsundoku

@GarethRees You didn't? In that case, the information in the timeline is misleading.

Oh, wait, "deleted" refers to a comment, not the answer.

b_jonas

Ok, then back to my previous question: why did Community delete the question. Because if it shouldn't be deleted, we can just undelete and the problem is solved. It doesn't matter if it remains closed.

Tsundoku

So it was deleted by the roomba / Community user? Hmm.

b_jonas

23:53

@Tsundoku No, I'm telling you, question has 3 reputation, it can't get roombaed.

Gareth Rees

My opinion is that there was enough text in the mosaic for it to be on topic at literature.se, but it would clearly also be on topic at history.se, where they have several questions asking for identification of objects in historical artworks, for example

b_jonas

Not unless people flag it as spam or something.

I suspect @Community deleted it because it was migrated then closed.

Because there is a note saying "This post was returned to Science Fiction & Fantasy Stack Exchange. It is not currently accepting new answers or interactions. Learn more" and "Migration Rejected" in the timeline

Tsundoku

So should I try to migrate it to History SE?

b_jonas

@GarethRees I don't know if it's on topic for Lit, in fact I asked to migrate it here because it would be good for testing the boundaries of our scope, but I didn't expect that someone would give such a detailed answer.

@Tsundoku Wait first. Ask History SE moderators,

plus I want to ask the Sci Fi mods too but they're sleeping or celebrating the holiday right now.

Tsundoku

@b_jonas Visiting graveyards? I assume they're sleeping ;-)

@b_jonas Just to be clear: are you asking the History SE mods or do you want me to do that?

bobble

23:58

This discussion is interesting to watch despite me knowing absolutely nothing of the background

b_jonas

The whole thing started when I figured I'd look if I can ask a question about book illustrations on Lit to test for the boundaries of scope; and soon after that I was browsing my old photos to clean and upload any that are worth to share, because I have a long backlog on my hard disk; and I ran into a photo of the reproduction of the mosaic.

@Tsundoku I'd prefer if you asked, I am not generally present there.

But I'll go join the chat to be pingable.

And I'll ask Mythology in the meantime.

@Tsundoku Sleeping? On Nightmare Night?

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