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6:00 PM
@Helmar A lot of people here have been in Mythology when it was beta.
That's not exactly recent ;)
So they threw the entire private beta process out the window last month?
Of course not, but mid-2015 they changed a lot
Q: Graduation, site closure, and a clearer outlook on the health of SE sites

AnaBack in April of 2010, Joel shared our assumptions about the role of small sites in the newly minted Stack Exchange network: If a site does not have enough activity at the end of 90 days, it will be closed down. Any existing Q&A will be archived and made available for download, but the site...

That was a major realignment of beta handling
Unfortunately when reading up on betas a lot of the prior stuff seems indeed to be outdated
Thus, again
A: When do we finally progress "Internet of Things" from beta to released?

Robert CartainoThis is largely extracurricular to the answers already posted, but this is important to provide a bit of context… This site is essentially "done" — released. This is a a fully functional, launched site. It is not "in beta" as you've come to understand it the traditional software development mode...

That's from this month, where Robert answers that a lot of stuff I did read up diligently on meta se is in fact outdated.
@DVK-in-Florida since I can ping you here but not in Mos, I took a screenshot of some aurebesh for that old darths and droids bingo answer
working on some of the others while I have spare time also
Well, yeah, I know these things.
I doubt a lot of the people here actually think this site will graduate in 90 days.
6:06 PM
The 90 days are not that important, what's important that the early forcing of all those beta essentials is not seen as helpful anymore.
We will have most probably have years to figure that out.
That's why I voted to close all those scope discussions without any question as a basis
I'm not sure it was ever seen as helpful.
Apparently even the people who were in chat yesterday when shog pinned all that disagree
@NapoleonWilson That might be true, but the old blog posts and meta posts on beta essentials are still there.
Well, people disagree, happens. I still don't think noone here knows dafuq a private beta works. ;-)
@NapoleonWilson I didn't say that. I talked about recent private beta experience and from their own comments I know that a few of those voters haven't been in any.
But voting is always anyone's own prerogative.
I still find it a waste of energy when people apply their current problems or rules from other sites on this site without any relevant literature question
6:12 PM
That energy waste would have been avoided by closing.
Anyways I'm not one to vote again when I was outvoted.
@Helmar you do realize that I'm a mod of a site that went through private beta less than a year ago?
@Catija I do
@Helmar It's worth taking a lot of old blog posts with a grain of salt. They're important to understanding how Stack works, but they're deeply flawed as hard-and-fast SE rules.
Anyways that even makes my point for me
Q: What topics can I ask about here?

BSMPThis section is currently blank in our Help Center. While we can't have an exhaustive list of Arts & Crafts (IIRC, that's something that got hashed out on Area 51), being specific about what types of questions are OK is necessary.

Q: What topics can I ask about here?

GhanimaWhat's on-topic or not will naturally evolve during private beta but should finally be condensed into this part of the FAQ: http://iot.stackexchange.com/help/on-topic I would think it easier to discuss matter here at meta first (community wiki answer for easy editing) and transfer to the FAQ once...

Second one is closed
By Robert
@Emrakul Exactly
Oh, I see what you're saying. Yeah.
6:33 PM
Look at this
Q: Are operas considered literature on this site?

Matrim CauthonI am asking specifically about the plots or stories of the works (rather than the music).

We have a scope question without any real basis
A scope answer with the age old why not defense also operating in thin air.
yeah, this is getting annoying
I don't even think we should be posting example questions about these really, just wait until they come up organically
That's from a highly reputable user from SciFi and here which always gives auto upvotes
And voila precedent
without any question
without any discussion
without any use for the site
The problem is one can't make a proper against case either, because there's no actual example question
Meanwhile any meta 10+ answer will by rule of nature gather more upvotes
Making said precedent more and more fixed
yeah, I have a feeling that we're trying to be a bit too broad
the SE freamework does better with somewhat narrow scopes
I just think we should deal with these when they arrive by themselves
not go out and try to make examples
@Riker Exactly
6:38 PM
@Helmar A new meta question could establish two things: first, that it takes real precedent in order to have a real discussion; second, that any precedent set on meta without reference to real, tangible questions should only be tenuously considered.
@Riker yes
@DForck42 and the rest of the chat: thank you. I know what to do know. I have to rewrite my question completely, to ask only about Michel Strogoff, and make it much clearer.
@Riker Private beta is a time to test the waters of what is and isn't on topic. It's a time to get our feet wet, and begin thinking about longer-term site issues. In order to properly understand some of those questions, writing good questions and answers to them is imperative.
That way, we can look at them later and go "this is a very high quality post, but it's not a question we want to field."
but it's not helping to create examples ourselves
we don't know what people will ask in the future
for sure
6:40 PM
Why not? You can never really know what people will ask in the future.
we can say "somebody might ask about operas", but taht's about it
@b_jonas :-D
@Emrakul I'll write something up
Yes, we can. And private beta is a chance to look at that, by writing a high quality question and high quality answer to an opera question to see if it works and fits.
what's going to be asked about operas though?
6:42 PM
Besides that, people proposed a site about a thing, not about an effin' question type. I can literarily analyze a beautiful car as much as any other friggin' piece of art.
@Riker Exactly, Operas is not a thing on which you can make a decision
unless you have a legitimate opera question that was conceived without regard for whether it's on-topic or not, it doesn't count for the purposes of the meta-example-testing
there's always going to be a bias
@Riker The same thing that could be asked about any other work of literature? Plot, story, motivation, meaning?
@Riker right. I was actually holding onto my obscurus question for a while. it proved that I was a bit dumb, but I still think it's a good example that tests our limits
Operas are text, with sung components.
6:43 PM
but I didnt' artificially create it to do that, it was a legitimate question I had
@Emrakul that's my opinion
the plot is on-topic
but operas are not
@Riker How can you even begin to look at an operatic plot without looking at its music, though? The operatic form encodes the plot and meaning of the story directly into the music.
then it's off-topic IMO
if it's not only about the plot/symbolism/story, then it's not on-topic
but asking questions about operas just to make an example for meta voting is not okay
6:46 PM
I'm going to ask a question that I've genuinely had about Hamilton, that's about the plot, symbolism, and story, that can't be answered without looking at the musical score.
if it's conceived out of a desire to prove a point, it's artificial, and likely unreproducable
@Emrakul what's the question?
now, brb
Quickly provide me with the most off-topic opera question you can think of
I need a ridiculous example
what color hair does the actor who played hamilton in Hamilton actually have
6:53 PM
@Riker I agree. Like Shog9 pointed out yesterday we don't need to solve all the problems today.
and to expand on that, I think we should only discuss them when they come up organically
On RPG.SE, we only really could figure out how appropriate various things were and why they were appropriate or not after we'd received multiple questions on that topic.
questions that came up naturally
@Riker Good, good, bring on the bad questions about a thing. People want a thing, they get a thing, they're gonna pick the question type. ;-)
@Riker I've been wondering why Lin-Manuel chose to portray Peggy the way he did, and how that choice of portrayal influenced the way she was (or wasn't) written into critical parts of the story or adjusted other characters in non-obvious ways.
6:54 PM
@NapoleonWilson lol
@Emrakul yeah, that's not about lit
that's about acting
It's not really about acting.
@Riker Thanks!!!
I added 3 total I think
It's putting music under the lens of literary discussion.
@DVK-in-Florida I also added asteroids and food later
@Emrakul if it mentions music, it's off-topic
(not literally (pun intended), but for the most part)
6:55 PM
Look, the truth is, "literature" is a label that describes who approves of something, rather than what that something actually is. Everything from poetry, to music, to plays, to operas, to movies, has, at one point in history been considered "literature."
There was a time when female writers were described as "almost literary."
yeah, and I'm not saying operas in general are off-topic
just if the question can't be answered without the music, then it is
But that's such an arbitrary distinction to make. The words are text, why not the song? How can anyone hope to conduct a thorough, meaningful analysis of music without looking at the... music?
but that's not my original point about the opera questions, that's a dicussion everybody needs to have on meta LATER
That's true, but it's a facet of a more fundamental discussion. Are we a site about Western-centric, bound printed matter, or are we a site about narrative worldwide?
6:57 PM
TL;DR: Don't post questions out of a desire to check/see/test/whatever if something is on-topic. If you believe it is, post it. When we have enough organically created questions of a certain, then we make a meta discussion.
@Riker specifically also one question does not make for an example of why a topic should stay or go, since that one question could have problems unrelated to the topic. on RPG.SE we handle questions where we advise people on how to build a character they want to build, but there are something like 3 specific formulations of that question we've identified that we can handle, and others are too broad or primarily opinion based.
I get that, but it's also important to recognize that these questions are a facet of a broader, important discussion, and not one that's going to be easily resolved.
We could only identify those 3 formulations because we had a lot of those questions over time and could start noticing why certain ones worked and certain ones did not work.
@doppelgreener yeah
well, I'm outta here
got math to do
People get hung up on what "literature" actually is. I agree you can fill tomes and university courses with that question alone. But maybe concentrate on what this site actually is for? Noone's gonna think of Hamilton when he sees an SE site about "literature". That doesn't make him a Western-culture upperclass snob or a taxonomical ignoramus.
6:59 PM
see ya in a hour or so
@NapoleonWilson What people think at first glance is on topic, and what's actually on topic, are two very different things.
related to opera, BESW mentioned this yesterday:
20 hours ago, by BESW
I'd love this to be a place where people could analyse the influence of Western colonial myth on indigenous oral tradition, for example.
20 hours ago, by BESW
But the Stack would require a fairly radical paradigm shift before it became a place that sort of thing could be discussed productively.
17 hours ago, by Napoleon Wilson
Of course people love it, it's a great question, duh!
20 hours ago, by BESW
The very concept of valuing oral traditions on par with written ones would be a stumbling block.
Q: Please, let's evolve our scope, not force it

HelmarComing fresh of another private beta I'm looking a bit worried on some of the meta posts over here. For starters I'll quote what has also been pinned in our chat, what Robert Cartaino the director of community development for SE posted after releasing the recent Internet of Things private beta in...

7:09 PM
@Emrakul Also true. But you'll find noone on the street who thinks operas are literature. "literature" is neither an umbrella term for "culture" nor "art".
@NapoleonWilson So how did we find 10 on a literature SE who thought so?
@Helmar Because private beta, because questions are cool and because literature is cool. ;-)
And you simply have to vote to get that Civic Duty badge first too ;)
And voting up is just way less fuss
7:57 PM
@NapoleonWilson The problem is, what you think is "literature" has more to do with where you were born, and the circumstances under which you were raised, than anything intrinsically meaningful.
Stack Exchange is, quite literally, 90% upper middle class white males. And that has a huge impact on what gets seen as valuable, not just here. But it's rearing its head here in particular.
"Literarure" as a term is embroiled in that culture, and the onus is on us to recognize that.
It's not inherently bad. That's not an accusation or statement of guilt. It's just important to recognize that what you see and perceive as "literature" isn't necessarily shared by huge portions of the rest of the world.
We're already seeing it. Forms of artistic expression that might be called literature for their deep cultural significance within those cultures are being dismissed off-hand as not being literature because "the average person wouldn't think it is."
It's unfortunate that a topic like literature is as politicized as this, but unfortunately, by creating a site dedicated to "Literature," we've created a lightning rod for these issues in particular.
8:03 PM
@Emrakul Yeah, I know that talk.
Then maybe a bit of a better naming for the site proposal (or a huge scope-changing discussion) during Area51 would have been a good idea, rather than suddenly saying "oh, well, we actually meant all things possible".
That's why I'm pushing so hard for acceptance of the multi-cultural narrative form under the scrutiny of literary thought.
I feel like napoleon is just staying out of the meta discussions and just seizing the opportunity to make puns and jokes
I think he's smarter all of us other people
Maybe so, but we are stuck with what we have. The only way out of the political bind is through general cultural acceptance.
Or, well, ask some effin' song or movie questions in the pre-commitment phase.
No, that's missing the point.
8:06 PM
It's not. This site wanted to be literature, it is literature, not music fans.
@NapoleonWilson lesson learned for when shog nukes this whole site from orbit ;)
No, that's still missing the point. We have an obligation toward cultural acceptance.
@Emrakul at this point it really comes down to:
Call me a white privileged male for that how much you want. I'll stand by it.
You can make your case all you want, and I have to say you're doing a great job of it. We disagree with you.
@NapoleonWilson I thought you were orange and black in real life?!
8:07 PM
@Riker Don't worry, I understand :]
@Riker Not actually.
:O my life has been a lie
I don't expect to """win""" this argument.
But it needs to be said.
yeah, and you've made your case and stated it
8:08 PM
@Riker A little. ;-)
now, no offense, but I think you're just reiterating the same stuff again and again
I've been saying it because the only feedback I've been getting up until this point has been sharply dismissive.
I stayed out of meta discussions because I'm not too invested in the site (because, well, I didn't ever think I had to be). Chat-complaining without meta is much easier. ;-)
ah okay
I answered a few easy meta questions, though. ;-)
8:10 PM
I can understand being listened to and disagreed with - that I'm okay with - but what I've been getting is that "the implications aren't something I want for the site, so I'm going to dismiss the entire line of thought."
@NapoleonWilson ah
If that's what people want in the site, I'm totally happy to go with it. I just wanted to make sure we recognize that we're getting something very reflective of who Stack represents as a whole.
I'm not dismissing the thought that indigenous pottery work is literature. Only the thought that it has any place on this site.
@NapoleonWilson I wouldn't come here looking for questions about pottery...
I'd more likely go to history.se for that particular topic
After some consideration I decided to accept the highest scoring answer, so that future readers know that there is (there is, right?) a consensus. Any objections?
8:20 PM
@Gallifreyan what's our consensus? shog's answer isn't so much definitive as a warning against them
shogs answer says, "probably leave them and see if their a problem nextweek"
Accepting on meta is like accepting on main site: it shows the answer the querent found most useful, nothing more.
yeah meta accepted doesnt really matter
Voting is where we find the community's crowd wisdom.
I know, I just wanted it to have an accepted answer, so people know there's more or less an agreement. If another answer gathers more votes, I'll reaccept
8:23 PM
@Gallifreyan sure
do eeeet
@Himarm shog in a nutshell
Accepted. Now my mission on this website is completed.
@Gallifreyan lol
* is complete
@Gallifreyan you know you can edit what you say in chat, right?
8:30 PM
Can't edit that one
@Gallifreyan weird
I guess it's only possible during 1 minute or so after posting
Q: Where did the term Kwisatz Haderach in Dune originate?

rkalajianI've always been curious how names and words are created in literature. Having finished the main Dune books last year, I was thinking how the term "Kwisatz Haderach" came about. Did Herbert make it up, or does it have some history or explanation to it.

Two answers, both similar, posted at the same time
Which to pick? One with the link, or the person who has less rep
@rkalajian the better one, lol
I usually wait, let my questions mature a bit before I accept
Neither of that is relevant if you think any of those answers provides more insight and better reasoning than the other one.
8:38 PM
They're both pretty much identical. That's the tough part.
I'll let it stew and see how the votes go
@DForck42 Indeed, we don't want to scare away the people who will actually look into how that Dune language is constructed and why above all it was based on Hebrew.
If Wikipedia gives a 3 liner after a minute, don't feel held back to go the extra mile.
In fact it seems like a really good example for a question where the obvious answers, while certainly answering the question very directly, might fall a little flat on the broader question behind it.
@rkalajian So yeah, if you ask me, none. ;-)
8:53 PM
@Himarm It avoids community bumps
@BESW That The Raven question was excellent.
heh, I have the lowest scored open question on the site, lol
Oh, a LotR question I might be able to answer. But well, I'm sure everyone else can too.
@NapoleonWilson I'm considering downvoting that one. It doesn't show much research effort.
Yeah, I thought the book explained it rather well.
(Or I might be confusing it with the film.)
Didn't the river simply transport it from where Isildur was shot on his way back?
9:01 PM
As far as I remember, yes. But it didn't travel too far.
The ring left Isildur, as it left Gollum later
Or that.
there's actually a long quote by Gandalf himself that describes it's travels
it the fellowship
I actually have the book here, but don't care to find the quote at the moment
Q: Is there any famous literary novel that was based on a movie?

Karan DesaiGenerally, movies are made from novels and famous literary works but was any literary work or story created/adapted from movie?

off topic - too broad
Someone has already wikied it anyway.
@NapoleonWilson yeah, but an actual quote from th ebook would be better, I'm just lazy
9:05 PM
I figured that question effort should result in exactly that answer effort :P
@Helmar To...double the lack of effort? ;-P
As someone has certainly said by now, Low effort begets low effort
@Helmar Well, yeah, exactly.
@Helmar My counter to that is that low effort questions shouldn't necessarily get any answers at all.
9:10 PM
@Helmar It's not like the asker won't be satisfied anyway.
I figured someone will answer anyways in this beta stage, so I can get some rep out of it ;)
But that just encourages more bad questions.
it's not a bad question, just not a GREAT question
@rkalajian that's the same for both
himarm's answer has the link and half my rep
I don't mind at all if you pick his
it's better IMO
I would delete mine but no point
@HDE226868 So why did meta start setting a precedent to embrace them?
Q: Should we embrace non-Googlers?

BESWCommon Stack Network policy is to embrace non-Googlers. The Stack Exchange wants to be a place Google sends folks, not a place that sends folks to Google. Unfortunately, many sites and some of our users feel the downvote reason "does not show any research effort" is synonymous with "did not try ...

9:15 PM
@Helmar This is egregious, I think.
I agree :D
why am I getting mass stars
thanks btw tho
It's one of our worst meta questions
From me.
9:16 PM
Yet amazingly high voted due to first 48 hour enthusiasm
lel 2 people now
congrats on an accept himarm
9:17 PM
im getting slow in my old age
the liquor is finally catching up to me
@rkalajian did you actually mean to say mine was better? it was a minute earlier though
that young whippersnappers beat me by 20 seconds
I reached my vote max today
@Himarm lel
9:17 PM
@HDE226868 Actually my meta peer pressure comes from that question, since my let's wait for actual questions got voted into oblivion
@DForck42 same
@Riker I went through and upvoted some good questions that hadn't got a lot of attention
ye I can be pinged by that
@DForck42 ah, nice. so did I actually
oi @HDE226868 you clear teh starz?
@Riker - I starred your comments because if was a cool thing to do. You bowed out gracefully :)
@Riker I haven't touched the starboard.
9:19 PM
ah somebody did
@Riker :-D
probably napeloen then
@rkalajian ah, thanks
THE MYSTERY MUST BE SOLVED actually wait I really don't care that much about clearing stars nvm
someone is removing stars
9:20 PM
@Riker lol
you go figure it out
riot rabble rabble riot
That quote thing sounds familiar, though. Sure there isn't already a meta on it?
@rkalajian unofficial policy of SE: don't be a jerk to get moar rep
9:21 PM
@NapoleonWilson Are you thinking of meta.literature.stackexchange.com/q/94/71?
I couldn't find anything else mentioning quotes.
But I highly appreciate that it advertizes for less quotes and not more.
I never liked answers that are just huge yellow boxes, no matter how correct they are.
@NapoleonWilson I've held back on upvoting some answers because of that.
holy shit I've done a lot of reviews for edits
39 of them
It's also a bit frustrating to spend an hour on a largely original answer and then see someone else write an answer that's just quotes, even if they don't get any votes.
like that sherlock holmes self-answer
the question was ridiculously easy to answer and his self-answer was like 4 original sentences saying "the books says this"
9:25 PM
@Randal'Thor For a potential reading group.
@b_jonas It is worth a try.
Oh, she did stuff other than Potter? I doubt she has to, though.
@Riker Which one?
Q: Are questions already answered SF&F on-topic here?

CascabelI am starting to see some "ring and wand" questions being framed. Are questions about LoTR, Potter lore, GoT, Dune, etc. which have been already answered ad nauseum elsewhere on-topic here?

1 sec
@Hamlet tl;dr: people are lazy when it comes to voting
9:28 PM
@HDE226868 he deleted it
@Riker Huh.
but the question was "what was the name of the antagonist in the red-head sherlock holmes book" (paraphrase)
it's fairly obvious in the book
I'm off for a run. Don't burn down the site without me.
I remember it from 3 years ago
@HDE226868 see ya!
@Riker Ah, I recall that one.
9:29 PM
I felt some of the dialogue was a bit weird. I also would have liked to see more of Clay himself.
though you acn't deny that's a pretty easy question
it's below google level even
@DForck42 I mean, I think I understand why people don't vote. I'm just trying to suggest that these voting patterns might not be in the best interests of the site.
@Hamlet ahh, ok. yeah it's not. people need to upboat more
@DForck42 I could have written a "you all stink, you're ignoring good content and upvoting trash" announcement, but that obviously wouldn't be well received.
9:39 PM
@Hamlet lol, true
A: How big a role should quotes play in answers?

HelmarPrivate beta is the wild west. FGITW applies double at least. Having said that, low quality questions beget low quality answers. I'm picking this, because I'm half of the ~100% quote posters. That question shows no effort at all. Ridiculously enough we have already set the (imho terrible) prece...

Btw I want to close the hell out of that google embracing question, it has also no main site connection at all.
9:52 PM
@Helmar @Hamlet HIGHLY disagree with you both: meta.literature.stackexchange.com/a/223/16
so, why didn't you vote to close on that lotr question?
for that lotr question, what would a high-quality answer look like?
That's what I'm saying, as a site we are crazy, either we shut this shitty questions down or we have to live with trivial answers
@Ixrec I think the author of the answer could have provided a summary of what happened. basically: isildur got the ring after slaying sauron, was ambushed, it slipped of in the river, and sat there for a long time
@DForck42 Really? For a question that has been asked and answered a thousand times and is already all over the first few google pages?
That will just give us more trivial questions
9:58 PM
@Helmar ...with trivial answers.
@NapoleonWilson of course
I should really finish reading the Wind-up Bird Chronicle so I can ask a question about that
People invest their free time and why would anyone rewrite something that's already literally all over the place
@Helmar then close it

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