The Nineteenth Byte

4:00 PM

Why would a crash reporter need to be built out of 60 packages

The only cons of vim I agree with is that you need to install a plugin for some features that other IDEs have builtin, like type-hinting. But this is hugely offset by the fact that you don't need three full minutes to launch your IDE (just measured, 0.1s). I'm not even mentioning the benefits of modal editing

Also, not using eclipse in particular means your project can be compiled easily without installing eclipse itself

Nathan Merrill

@NieDzejkob intellij and eclipse are really bad at this, but I was quite surprised by the visual studio boot time

Pavel

It takes less than a minute on my machine.

Nathan Merrill

despite the installation taking way longer than it should and way more HD than it needs, it boots realy fast

Pavel

The first time I installed VS, my naive former self thought it would be ok to install all optional features.

caird coinheringaahing

4:03 PM

What's the line between IDE and text editor?

NieDzejkob

@Pavel that's besides the point if there are other options that don't give you the time to blink

Pavel

@NieDzejkob thatsthejoke.jpg

Nathan Merrill

@cairdcoinheringaahing both terms are broad, and have been used to mean different things, so there's no good line

NieDzejkob

@cairdcoinheringaahing there is none

Nathan Merrill

@NieDzejkob I think that the boot time of vim doesn't matter a ton to me. I code for 8 hours a day. Whether it takes 3 minutes (or even 10 minutes) to boot it up doesn't matter if it's saving me more time throughout the day

Neil

4:07 PM

@Adám Could be worse, you could be going from Towcester to Loughborough...

Pavel

@cairdcoinheringaahing Personally, I draw the line at static code analysis. An IDE is something that can tell me if my code will compile, without running the compiler, and be able to detect things like while true(){} and return; dostuff();.

Adám

@Neil Toaster to Lowbrow?

Nathan Merrill

@Pavel that only works if you work in a dynamic language. You can't tell if someFunc().otherFunc() is valid without running the compiler

Pavel

@NathanMerrill Sure you can. Check the return type of someFunc(), then check if that type has an otherFunc() method.

Maybe give a warning about a possible NullReferenceException

Nathan Merrill

right, but figuring out the return type requires a compiler

NieDzejkob

4:10 PM

@NathanMerrill fair point, assuming that the assumption is true (cough it probably isn't), but I remember using Eclipse before switching to Vim, and the experience was generally "wait 3 seconds every time you click". Granted, my computer was crap back then, but you shouldn't need a beefy computer to run notepad, even on ultra

Nathan Merrill

@NieDzejkob yeah, I think that eclipse is opposite end of the spectrum to vim in terms of responsiveness :P

Pavel

@NathanMerrill Or looking at the method definition and just looking at if it says void Foo() or int Foo() or Cow Foo() or whatever.

ngn

@NathanMerrill it just needs a parser

Pavel

^

NieDzejkob

@ngn and a semantic analyser

Nathan Merrill

4:11 PM

er, parser is the right term, sorry

ngn

@NieDzejkob yeah ...and that

NieDzejkob

brb separating the code generator from clang for measurement purposes

ngn

@NathanMerrill ides usually have error-tolerant parsers, more sophisticated than the compiler's parser

Nathan Merrill

but there's lots of variables here: I can call var.someFunc().get(j).someFunc()

Pavel

@NathanMerrill And an IDE will analyze all of it.

Nathan Merrill

4:13 PM

that could require generics (get(j)) could be a list

ngn

@NathanMerrill they can make maximum sense of whatever half-baked code you throw at them

Nathan Merrill

@Pavel no, I get that, but you still need a full-blown parser

Pavel

Right, which IDEs have.

And Vim doesn't.

Nathan Merrill

I think we're disagreeing on something we agree on

NieDzejkob

it doesn't matter if your IDE tells you that your code won't compile if actually running the compiler takes half a second

caird coinheringaahing

4:14 PM

Clearly IDLE is that best of them all ;P

Pavel

@NieDzejkob If you're working on a large project, like you might be for your job, it never does.

NieDzejkob

idle is just a text editor (that isn't vim, for that matter) with a run code button

@Pavel how many files do you modify between compilations? I mean, if you will recompile every single file in the code base, then it will take a long time. But for me, when I happen to make a mistake, it's noticed by the compiler within... idk, maybe half a second

Pavel

$ cat > Main.java <<EOF
public class Main {
        public static void main(String[] args) {
                System.out.println("Hello, World!");
        }
}
EOF
$ time javac Main.java
javac Main.java  1.27s user 0.05s system 210% cpu 0.625 total

@NieDzejkob 1.27 seconds to compile Hello World for Java

NieDzejkob

 cat test.c
#include <stdio.h>

int main(){
        printf("Hello, world!");
}
 time clang test.c -o test

real    0m0.098s
user    0m0.030s
sys     0m0.048s

Pavel

Well, we don't all get to use Clang

Especially if we're working with Java

NieDzejkob

4:23 PM

Of the top of my mind, I don't know any open-source projects that use Java, so that I could benchmark it. Any ideas? Also,

cat Main.java
public class Main {
  public static void main(String[] args){
    System.out.println("Hello, world!");
  }
}
 ~/tmp  time javac Main.java

real    0m0.521s
user    0m0.977s
sys     0m0.044s

user202729

2 cores probably?

Pavel

So around 1 second

ngn

if you measure performance, run it at least a few times to neutralise the effects of caches

NieDzejkob

@ngn I did

Pavel

@ngn After a few trials, I got consistently 1.1+-.15 seconds

Poke

4:26 PM

having an ide point out problems that will occur during compilation is definitely useful

it objectively saves time

regardless of how long that compilation takes

Pavel

Besides, an IDE doesn't just catch compiler errors for you, it spots other kinds of potential pitfalls--and is able to automatically fix a lot of them for you.

Poke

it's proactive rather than reactive

Pavel

Also, speaking of C/++, the error messages your IDE generates are vastly superior to the the error messages C/++ compilers produce.

NieDzejkob

@Pavel whaat? If that happens, you just chose a bad compiler

AFAIK, there are many IDEs that use clang as a library

Pavel

@NieDzejkob Clang isn't as bad at GCC, but C++ is notorious for having horrible error messages for a reason.

Neil

4:30 PM

@Adám more like Luffburu I think

Poke

@NieDzejkob that really shouldn't be part of my thought process while programming... "which compiler is going to give me the best error messages"

>.>

Dennis

Older versions of gcc are pretty terrible as far as error messages go.

NieDzejkob

@Poke of course, you only have to think about it once, when you choose your tools

H.PWiz

@Neil more like Luffbra where I live

Pavel

@Dennis Newer ones are still crap

Dennis

4:32 PM

But vastly superior to the crap from previous versions.

Poke

@NieDzejkob I can honestly say that I have never considered which compiler will give me better error messages.

I've considered how much optimization occurs

or how fast it is

NieDzejkob

@Poke did you consider what IDE to choose? Was that one of the criteria?

ngn

@Poke me neither, I don't read them, all I need is line:col :)

NieDzejkob

@ngn also a good point

Poke

@NieDzejkob integration with other pieces of my tech stack. community support. functionality

@ngn if that's how you want to debug things, more power to you. I prefer having some idea of what's going wrong before ripping apart code

or you know... writing it in such a way that it doesn't error during compilation at all

ngn

4:41 PM

@Poke I make mistakes, of course. I was trying to say that all the information I need to guess what the error is is its location.

Poke

good luck

that's certainly not always going to be the case

/maybe/ if we're only talking about compilation errors

ngn

@Poke that's what you said in the message I replied to: chat.stackexchange.com/transcript/message/43101040#43101040

Poke

I mean as opposed to errors pertaining to the other parts of "compiling" such as linker errors, etc

those can be harder to track down

NieDzejkob

Linker errors? What's the last time you had one?

ngn

@Poke well, ok. it's true that "compilers" these days are collections of many tools

NieDzejkob

4:48 PM

(except for "forgot to -l<something> after adding a new dependency"

Poke

the main point is that most ide's will catch this stuff for you before you even go to compile

ngn

As people familiar with C are around, can I seize the opportunity and ask: does anyone have experience implementing raw syscalls with asm("...")?

by "implementing" I mean calling the kernel from userspace (sorry if that was misleading)

NieDzejkob

I've been doing inline assembly and syscalls in assembly, but never both. Do you have any specific questions? Also, what do you want to accomplish?

ngn

@NieDzejkob I'm implementing a language, I want it to be as small and fast as possible, so I got rid of libc. I got 64-bit to work, but I hit a wall with 32-bit mmap

NieDzejkob

@ngn what's the problem?

ngn

5:02 PM

@NieDzejkob syscalls with >4 args are complicated; from what I searched on the web, it seems that I have to use the stack to pass them, not registers

NieDzejkob

@ngn it's >6, if any of these exist

eax for number, then ebx, ecx, edx, esi, edi, ebp for arguments

moonheart08

Why even support 32bit? :P Nearly everyone uses 64bit stuff

ngn

@NieDzejkob hm... duckduckgo and the internet mislead me then; thanks, I'll try that

New Main Posts

-1

Q: Not so childish: First the gap with mathematical operators

6 _ 5 _ 2 _ 7 _ 4 _ 2 _ 5 _ 1= 3 Fill the gaps with mathematical operators to get the desired result. Multiple solutions may be possible. Shortest code to print all the possible solutions (each solution consisting of operators) wins.

NieDzejkob

@ngn I used duckduckgo and the internet to answer this...

ngn

5:06 PM

@moonheart08 I didn't plan to but my other laptop broke and now I'm using a 10-year old 32-bit eeepc to play with... this is temporary

@NieDzejkob this is what I was looking at (search for "SYS_mmap")

J. Sallé

@ngn God, that's sad

ngn

@J.Sallé no, no, I'm a mortal :)

J. Sallé

@ngn I thought we had previously established that you were an alien ⍨

NieDzejkob

alien doesn't mean immortal...

ngn

@J.Sallé a mortal alien :) Actually, I have a 64-bit box too (literally a heavy box), rather old and noisy and half-broken, but it would do for 64-bit testing

J. Sallé

5:19 PM

Well, one cannot assume that much :p

Also, to be fair, most gods I know of are mortals

ngn

@J.Sallé then I'm thinking of parting with some of my precious savings and finally buying a thinkpad

J. Sallé

@ngn ooooooh, that's cool. I believe a friend from college has one, he likes it very much

ngn

@J.Sallé they have a reputation of not breaking often

@J.Sallé also, they have the least nasty keyboards from the modern laptops I've looked at

J. Sallé

@ngn What do you consider a nasty keyboard? hahahah

ngn

@J.Sallé you know, these flat keys that bend when you press them not exactly at the centre, and you're never quite sure if they registered a keystroke or not

J. Sallé

5:27 PM

@ngn argh, I know exactly what you mean

ngn

@J.Sallé the mac type of key, I don't know the term

J. Sallé

I think they're called chiclet keys, at least here in Brazil

ngn

@J.Sallé by the way, the eeepc's keyboard feels sooo good, something went horribly wrong with laptop manufacturers in the past 10 years

HyperNeutrino

bend as in they don't stay horizontal or as in they literally deform?

ngn

@HyperNeutrino don't stay horizontal

HyperNeutrino

5:29 PM

ok :P

J. Sallé

@ngn yeah, my mom had one of those a few years back. tbh it was the only good thing about it :p

I'm saving some money so I can get a new PC set up with all the chrome

ngn

@J.Sallé desktop?

J. Sallé

@ngn yeah

Pavel

Buying GPUs is crap these days

J. Sallé

I need a mechanical keyboard in my life >.>

@Pavel yeah, and expensive af

ngn

5:31 PM

@J.Sallé I've got one - a Kinesis Advantage

Pavel

I'm glad that the GPU shortage coincided with a sharp increase in the effectiveness of IGPUs, but it's not the same as having a real GPU.

@ngn I'm kinda curious, do you use the keyboard that Dyalog sells with all the APL symbols printed on it?

ngn

@Pavel I was using a laptop at Dyalog, so I've never used those.

J. Sallé

@ngn I've got my eyes on a Corsair K70 or K95

Pavel

I kinda want one of those APL keyboards, but they're actually quite expensive

HyperNeutrino

my dad brought home a mech(-ish) keyboard from his workplace that was quite nice but the space-bar didn't work so I can't use it and i still have to use a laptop keyboard :( it's not terrible though

ngn

5:35 PM

@Pavel They are. When you order any custom hardware in small amounts, it ends up being expensive, unfortunately. If you know how to configure your keyboard, you probably don't need them. Some customers buy them because they hired APL newbies or just because the keyboards look and feel cool.

Pavel

I can't find any APL keycaps either ;-;

NieDzejkob

@ngn it seems like I have been wrong, sorry

ngn

@Pavel differences in national kbd layouts make this even more complicated

HyperNeutrino

also, I see most mech keyboards described by people have keys that are like 1-2 cm above the base and you can see a gap between the keys and the base; is there a special term for a keyboard where the keys aren't as flat as laptop keys but aren't as extreme as proper mech keyboards?

Riker

"sane"?

ngn

5:38 PM

@NieDzejkob I was wrong too :) So the threshold is >5 args?

HyperNeutrino

huh

J. Sallé

@HyperNeutrino I think those are the usual membrane kbds

HyperNeutrino

hm ok

J. Sallé

Also, the biggest appeal mech kbds have to me is that they're tactile, so you can actually feel when the key has been activated

NieDzejkob

@ngn apparently, yes

I got confused because I forgot that x86_32 is not the same as i686 when reading this post

HyperNeutrino

5:41 PM

yeah same, and also like when i hit the key harder with my finger it actually goes down and on laptop keyboards if i strike the key it only moves a slight amount and that feels weird :P not as much of a problem for normal typing but it feels weird when i'm spamming keys in video games :3 :P

J. Sallé

@HyperNeutrino precisely. If you're playing anything that's fast-paced, feeling the key being activated instead of having to press it all the way down helps a ton

HyperNeutrino

yeah

caird coinheringaahing

Anyone here who knows German? I'm having a bit of trouble with some structure, if you wouldn't mind helping

Mr. Xcoder

I could try to help you (B1 level, I don't know if that suffices ¯\_(ツ)_/¯).

Pavel

Das Neunzehnte Byte

Allgemeine Diskussion für codegolf.stackexchange.com auf Deutsch

moonheart08

5:50 PM

Git. >_<

caird coinheringaahing

¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Might as well try :P

@Pavel It's frozen (and I'm an RO :P)

NieDzejkob

It just occured to me that I don't know why The Nineteenth Byte is called that...

Pavel

I was about to ask if a moderator flag is acceptable for asking to unfeeze a room

caird coinheringaahing

Ping a mod?

Mr. Xcoder

@NieDzejkob It resembles The Nineteenth Hole from actual golfing tournaments. (And is also made of 19 byets :))

DJMcMayhem

5:51 PM

@Pavel Want me to unfreeze it?

Pavel

I guess

caird coinheringaahing

@DJMcMayhem Yes please :P

DJMcMayhem

Done

HyperNeutrino

@NieDzejkob "The Nineteenth Hole" is a golfing term to refer to the bar at the end of the 18-hole course (IIRC), so "The Nineteenth Byte" is somewhat similar to that because this place is kind of a place to hang out when not actually golfing.

2

Pavel

And causes a roughly equal loss in productivity as an actual bar.

DJMcMayhem

5:54 PM

@HyperNeutrino And cause it's nineteen bytes long

HyperNeutrino

that too :D

Mr. Xcoder

> (And is also made of 19 byets :))

caird coinheringaahing

There's a meta about all that

DJMcMayhem

0

Q: Show replies in the transcript on mobile

I primarily use the mobile site for chatting. If someone pings me while I'm away, I'll get a notification about it later. This is really convenient, save for one problem: I have absolutely no way of telling what message they replied to. On desktop, there will be a little arrow next to their messa...

Das Neunzehnte Byte

Transcript for