English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

12:11 AM

I have a psychological question. I figured out most English Speaking people tend to refer to the country as "US" instead of one followed by one more letter 'A', which is "USA" in their speech. Is there any reasons behind this?

Mitch

@JasonMarsh I had a hard time understanding the woman's speech (I couldn't make out 'regular') but it seems consistent to say that in the middle of her mean invective against the girl videoing that she would use 'regular' in a mean way. I wouldn't be surprised if she considered AAVE in a similar fashion.

Jason Marsh

That's right

Mitch

@JasonMarsh 1) it's shorter to say (always convenient) 2) It won't be confused with anything else.

Jason Marsh

Cool, TA.

I just realised TA is a short-word for "Thank (you) Always".

Mitch

I never knew that!

What does 'thank you always' mean?

Jason Marsh

12:15 AM

I don't know, perhaps it means you thank your opponent all the time.

KitFox

@RegDwigнt I wondered the same thing.

Mitch

@JasonMarsh I'm looking around on the web and I can't find anything like that. Where did you learn it?

Robusto

►

Cf. The Bonnie Situation

Jason Marsh

I figured it out of the blue.

Robusto

What I originally put there wasn't The Bonnie Situation, even though it had that title.

@JasonMarsh You mean it came to you out of the blue. You don't figure something out out of the blue.

Not usually, anyway.

Jason Marsh

12:23 AM

Samuel Jackson is "ain't playing no games" when he has blood stain all over the collar of his shirts and talk about gangster "shitz".

Robusto

Where to begin . . .

Jason Marsh

I had no idea about the true definition of TA until today though.

I honestly figured it out on my own while stoned (not by marijuana).

tchrist

Torturer’s Apprentice

Teaching Assistant

Transit Authority

Totally Awesome

Try Again

Mitch

@JasonMarsh Oh. I can comment that 'Thank always' or 'Thank you always' is never used in Gneral American English. I can't say about UK or other varieties. And so then the abbreviation TA would be even more obscure and not understandable in the US. You should check with people you speak around if they would understand it.

Robusto

@tchrist That's a bingo.

Mitch

12:32 AM

Do you have any instances where TA is used? Where you think it means 'Thank Always'? Then we could probably help you figure it out.

Robusto

@JasonMarsh Notwithstanding the fact that marijuana is the substance one is usually stoned on when one is stoned, note that one is never stoned by something unless it is an actual stone; in case of intoxicants, one is stoned on them.

Jason Marsh

I used to use TA when I get off from a taxi as meaning of "thanks for your hospitality".

@Robusto Right, I mean (not on marijuana).

Jason Marsh

1:16 AM

By the way, I joined Marine Corps and I think I'm probably going to get kicked out due to aggravated assault I have caused on a senior Marine because I got mad.
He said "Hey why don't you phuck off to Australia?" and hit my chest so I instantly hit him back and kicked his butt. I left bruises on areas of his body I've punched and kicked him, then he took pictures of them and reported to an administrator/officer.
So they were considering to send me to a jail for a couple of weeks, but since I hit someone with higher ranking than me so they'll probably kick me out (or even send me to real-ja…

tchrist

Jail certainly sounds like the right place.

Jason Marsh

right place for me?

Nah, I hate jail.

That's why I've evacuated to a hospital by making an excuse that I have a sleep disorder.

tchrist

You criminally assaulted a superior. You should be in jail.

Jason Marsh

1:41 AM

Yeah but I had no idea about how serious this crime is. I lived in Australia (where you get never get informed about rules and cautions about it) for too long and had too big cultural misunderstanding when I actually hit my senior Marine.

They can forgive me once considering it though.

I'm spiritually Aussie but exteriorly Korean.

Or they can send me to a hospital and get psychologically diagnosed like I am currently doing now.

Doctors can probably tell me why I lost my mind and ended up hitting my superior though.

Jason Marsh

2:09 AM

I like one their saying which is "Once a Marine, Always a Marine". It sounds like even though I am "forcefully" getting kicked out, I am still honourably a Marine.

Jason Marsh

2:31 AM

Guys, I just bought a corn-icecream and threw away the whole thing after eating the top part where it has chocolate toppings and pointy end part of it with little ice cream and concentrated shell. Some granny was staring at me when I was throwing away the ice cream. Do you think I'm "normal"?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

2:51 AM

@Cerberus

Cerberus

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Yay!

You've made me!

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

heh not i

Cerberus

That's an awfully low number of bricks anyway.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

Also: The Odyssey

Cerberus

My feet look a bit...aggressive.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

2:52 AM

@Cerberus How many bricks would you expect?

The head piece that's used is originally from an official kit starring Fenrir

or Fenris

I have 3 or 4 of those. Makes me want to build a little lego cerberus

Cerberus

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Very impressive.

Yay make me!

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

action shot

Not sure what's happening here

That time you got drunk and strapped a scantily-clad woman to your back?

3

or... half a scantily-clad woman

It happens to everyone, I'm sure

Cerberus

3:10 AM

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 I'm letting in newly dead souls, presumably.

Jason Marsh

Guys, in Korea, when you feel your muscle part is strengthened after a workout, you call it "My xxx is currently 'pumped'". Is it same in English?

Cerberus

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 That is not I. Too many heads.

Jason Marsh

For instance, "Gosh, my biceps are pumped!" <- does it make sense?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@JasonMarsh yes

@Cerberus so who is it then?

Cerberus

I don't know.

Some bastard?

Jason Marsh

3:13 AM

Could you rate these girls out of 10?

►

As westerner (most probably influenced by USA culture), do you think these Asian girls are hot?

Or just creepy?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@JasonMarsh Lots of westerners think Asian girls are hot.

Jason Marsh

Don't they look like 12 years old white girl and you feel guilty of liking them because it makes you feel like pedophile?

Cerberus

How large do you think the largest artificial island in the world is?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@JasonMarsh The girls in that video look like they're various ages, some older than 20, maybe older than 25, who are dressed like high-school girls. I think it makes them look silly.

I also subtract points from their attractiveness for the obvious fakiness of the video and the makeup, etc.

@Cerberus I haven't the faintest idea.

Jason Marsh

They are currently the most popular group of girls among Marines. One Marine can probably go and attempt to assassinate Kim Jung Un if one of those girls promise to give the responsible Marine a good sex or Blox Jxb.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

3:22 AM

That sort of thing is not surprising.

Jason Marsh

M'k

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

They are not that different from the girl groups in the US

Jason Marsh

Would one US Marine go and assassinate Kim if Kim K (Assuming that she's the most hottest American right now) would like to give him a good sex or BJ?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@JasonMarsh I'm gonna go out on a limb and say that Marines are generally not so ready to throw their lives away for any woman's promises. But they would probably strut around the base just as much for Kim K as for the local variant.

But seriously. Do you think the Marines who like this band are pedophiles? Are all the Marines there afflicted with yellow-fever?

How old is the average Marine, anyway?

nm, the average age is 25.

So most marines are basically kids.

and kids can hardly be "pedophiles".

Jason Marsh

3:47 AM

1) We can't technically be pedo since us and those girls are both Korean.
2) Usually they are 20 years old in average, but sometimes they are young as 18 years old.

Wait are you talking about US Marines?

NVM, I'm not one of them though

Cerberus

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 About 1000 km².

And the next largest is 25 km².

Jason Marsh

BTW, this is a photo of British Royal Army (British Marines). They look so powerful because they ride horses.

So strong and powerful, they fight for their queen and tea.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@JasonMarsh Oh, you are talking about Korean Marines? Anyway I'm not sure what you mean by "can't technically be pedo"... is there no such law in Korea? Otherwise ethnicity/nationality doesn't usually factor into the "is it pedophilia" question.

Jason Marsh

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Right

Cerberus

This conversation and the behaviour of its participants is beyond my comprehension.

Jason Marsh

3:58 AM

I was wrong when I included ethnicity/nationality factor into a question when asking about "is it pedophila" question.

"participants ", me?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus ?

@JasonMarsh So the girls in that band are 18-24 yo. Even if the average Marine is older than 20 then I still wouldn't see what's "creepy" about them being into those girls?

Cerberus

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 No need to echo me.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus echo you?

Cerberus

3 mins ago, by Cerberus

This conversation and the behaviour of its participants is beyond my comprehension.

1 min ago, by Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus ?

These two lines express the same sentiment.

You were just more succinct.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

No. You misread my "?". It is meant to express my non-comprehension of your statement, specifically, what parts of the conversation and/or behaviour exceeds your comprehension.

but "echo you?" was meant to echo you.

Cerberus

4:03 AM

It's close enough.

Theodore Broda

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Speaking of Echo the nymph, maybe she was the one on the back of the Lego version of Cerberus.

Cerberus

Hello.

Unlikely!

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@TheodoreBroda He claims it wasn't him.

Cerberus

Too many heads.

That reeks of heresy.

Theodore Broda

@Cerberus Oh. At first I thought that the interlocking-brick figure of the dog was tricephalous. Upon further inspection, I noticed the extraneous heads.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

4:07 AM

> Most sources describe or depict three heads; others show Cerberus with two or even just one; a smaller number of sources show a variable number, sometimes as many as 50 or even 100.

from Wikipedia

Are there any OTHER multi-headed dogs?

Theodore Broda

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Orthrus (dicephalous)

It seems that chthonic canines occasionally have extra heads.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Interesting, I did not know that. Cerberus's profile image appears to depict the standard three heads, but maybe some additional noggins are hidden on the other side.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

Polycephaly

Polycephaly is a condition of having more than one head. The term is derived from the Greek stems poly- (Greek: "πολύ") meaning 'multiple' and kephali- (Greek: "κεφάλι") meaning "head", and encompasses bicephaly and dicephaly (both referring to two-headedness). A variation is an animal born with two faces on a single head, a condition known as diprosopus. In medical terms these are all congenital cephalic disorders. There are many occurrences of multi-headed animals, in real life as well as in mythology. In heraldry and vexillology, the double-headed eagle is a common symbol, tho...

The list of mythological polycephaly has very few dogs.

Only Cerberus is implied to maybe have more.

Jason Marsh

@TheodoreBroda Are you interested in mythical creatures like Cerberus?

Theodore Broda

@JasonMarsh Yes, I enjoy mythology, especially Greek, Roman, and Egyptian.

Jason Marsh

Me too

Theodore Broda

4:17 AM

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 I agree with your theory of the Lego figurine representing an intoxicated Cerberus. Maybe it was after one of Dionysus's wild parties.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@TheodoreBroda With drunk Cerb, there are no limits. From Hades to infinity!

Jason Marsh

By the way, I've done this training last time

cfile225.uf.daum.net/image/135070324C4E02061D0DA2

Theodore Broda

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 I wonder if ambrosia and nectar help with hangovers.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@TheodoreBroda probably

Jason Marsh

It was phucking scary when door to outside was opened for first time

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

4:23 AM

@JasonMarsh are you full-time military?

Theodore Broda

@JasonMarsh Awesome! Are you a paratrooper?

Jason Marsh

and you automatically sucked into sky and all you can hear is wind blowing

and you worry if you parachute isn't going to open up properly.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Yeah

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

oy, just noticed the time. gotta go

@JasonMarsh glad yours worked ;)

bye

Jason Marsh

But I don't get paid a lot because it's mandatory military service.

@TheodoreBroda Nah, I'm a Marine, mate. I'm a Field Radio Operator & Rifleman in Marine Corps.

Theodore Broda

@Cerberus Damn him to Tartarus for his blasphemy.

Jason Marsh

4:27 AM

While normal Rifleman mates jump only with their primary/secondary parachute + armament (about 30kg in total). I had to jump with a Field Radio (15 kg extra) on my back.

Theodore Broda

@JasonMarsh Can you transmit/receive while in the air? Maybe you get more range up there ;-)

Cerberus

@TheodoreBroda You'll have to ask Hades...

I merely follow orders.

Jason Marsh

Nah, you wouldn't normally do it

you just can't do anything apart from just falling down

and try to land safely

This training too

We've climbed up a mountain while carrying those boats on our head

Theodore Broda

@JasonMarsh Who gets to ride in the boat? I'd volunteer to be that guy.

Jason Marsh

After the training, you can't turn your neck for several days.

They are DIs.

Theodore Broda

4:33 AM

@JasonMarsh Ow.

Jason Marsh

(well, DIs exist only in training camp) but we still call them DI

or simply as "trainers"

Cerberus

It's bed time, adieu!

poof

Jason Marsh

They are like "You mother phucking rats move faster else I'm going to drown you in ocean"

Theodore Broda

@JasonMarsh Wow. I'm guessing that morale isn't very good with that attitude.

@Cerberus I should probably head to bed too. Καληνύχτα!

Goodnight, everyone!

user116848

@JasonMarsh So have you done the BUDS training?

user116848

4:36 AM

Hi guys :)

user116848

Hi Cerbs:)

Jason Marsh

Nope

Only Force Recon guys do that training

I can still apply for it but I can't really swim so I won't

user116848

I see

user116848

It's very difficult I hear. Only approx 5% passing rate, right?

Jason Marsh

I don't know, it's just phucking hard

user116848

4:41 AM

haha

Jason Marsh

Actual jumping isn't that difficult though

user116848

@JasonMarsh So can a guy about 5 foot 7 inches get recruited in the marines? Or he has to be 5 foot 11 inches? Just asking.

Jason Marsh

you do this hardcore Pre-Training before you get on a plane

And Pre-Training is the most difficult in my opinion

I think 5 foot 11 inches is enough to get recruited in Marine Corps

►

user116848

I see. Well then I am short I guess :)
Its okay I am in the accountancy field.

Jason Marsh

This is what we do when an actual war starts

amphibious landing attack

user116848

4:48 AM

Pretty cool stuff

user116848

But dangerous too

Jason Marsh

You just need to run forward fast as you can otherwise you have high chance of getting bombarded by enemy

user116848

nods

Jason Marsh

Usually battleships with Aegis Combat System will destroy 90% of enemy cannons that can strike us during the landing operation

Korea has 1 battleship equipped with Aegis Combat System

user116848

That reminds of a TV series I have been watching these days "The Last Ship". You heard of it? But it's based on fiction:)

Jason Marsh

4:52 AM

Nah

Also before the actual landing operation, Force Recon and Navy / Seal will secretly invade into enemy base and destroy critical weapons or disarm their weapons first

Plus you get heavy air support from airforce

user116848

I see.

user116848

Well Jason. See ya :)

Jason Marsh

Yeah, see you until our next gathering

fahdijbeli

7:05 AM

morning

Jason Marsh

7:33 AM

Join the Navy and see the world. Join the Marine Corps and police it.

Make Something out of Nothing.

Today, the world looks to America for leadership. And America looks to its Corps of Marines.

Laure

8:11 AM

I'm puzzled about the answsers to this question for two reasons. The main one is that I'd like to know why Which one do you like the most? is not considered as an option. I've seen/heard it often (from natives), is it wrong?

Second reason I'm puzzled is the downvotes on @FumbleFingers answer. Three upvotes for the answer saying they are used fairly interchangeably and two donwvotes (before I upvoted) for assume they're equivalent. Is it just some hairsplitting quarrel about adverbs or adjectives, or am I missing something?

Jason Marsh

Tupac is alive

facebook.com/hashtag/…

Accroding to the video

the guy mentions 2Pac as "This mother phucker"

and he is alive

Jason Marsh

8:33 AM

greet(male, Name) ->
io:format("Hello, Mr. ~s!", [Name]);
greet(female, Name) ->
io:format("Hello, Mrs. ~s!", [Name]);
greet(_, Name) ->
io:format("Hello, ~s!", [Name]).

This is beautiful

I love pattern matching

function(Args)
if X then
Expression
else if Y then
Expression
else
Expression

That's how you would do it in imperative languages

function(X) ->
Expression;
function(Y) ->
Expression;
function(_) ->
Expression.

In Erlang

Robusto

10:50 AM

@Cerberus: Are Gaius and Caius the same Roman name, differently pronounced, or two distinct names?

Jason Marsh

11:13 AM

facebook.com/photo.php?v=598459246892066

JSBձոգչ

11:25 AM

that video is awesome

the comments are what's terrible

terdon

Damn that is one of the most pathetic, sad things I've ever seen. Not to mention horribly offensive. Idiots.

JSBձոգչ

am i the only one who finds it hilarious?

terdon

Apparently :)

I mean yeah, it is funny in a sad way but that idiot actually believes that shit.

And that is scary.

I love the Christian == American connection. That one always cracks me up.

JSBձոգչ

i am not entirely convinced that it's real

it's a little too perfect, and i've got a feeling that it's a send-up

the connection to paula dean seems too-good-to-be-true as well

Mitch

11:42 AM

Like an SNL skit

terdon

@JSBձոգչ I hope so but I've seen very similar real ones. I wish there weren't actually people like that but I'm afraid they not only exist but also consistently get elected into office in at least one nuclear power.

Mitch

@terdon but Christians are American. Like 'the blacks'.

terdon

@Mitch Oh, sorry then. My bad!

Mitch

!!

Jarvis the Bot

@Mitch I'm sorry. I don't know what you mean. Maybe you meant: t

Mitch

11:47 AM

I can't actually watch that NSFAnywherre!

JSBձոգչ

12:30 PM

i'm not the only one who thinks it's a troll: aattp.org/…

and there is circumstantial evidence

like the fact that the website for the church was created after the church closed its doors

Robusto

@FumbleFingers: Are you a lawyer in real life? Your dialogues seem often to take the form of special pleading. — Robusto 13 secs ago

Mitch

google for "pastor and mrs jim colerick" lots of hoax possibilities.

JSBձոգչ

so, yeah, it's a troll/hoax

v. funny, though

though, as usual, it's gathered real outrage from people too eager to believe the worst

Mitch

It works though because their hippity-hop sounds as bad as church people would be expected to do like nursery school rhyme. Also 'word'.

JSBձոգչ

right, but the context is wrong if you actually know church culture

the elderly senior pastor would never do this sort of thing

the youth pastor who's trying to be hip might

god knows there are some really awful "hip" christian videos out there

but this one is awful in a particular combination of ways which is very unlikely to happen in real life

...and on a different subject i got 21 upvotes for a stupid single-word-requests answer yesterday?

talk about incentivizing the wrong things

Mitch

12:46 PM

@JSBձոգչ I told you not to talk about that!

But 'taboo' is as correct as it could get.

SWRs aren't all bad.

@Laure Oh. Yeah. 'the most' or the best ' also work perfectly fine there (actually with 'the' is as or more common than without)

Laure

@Mitch Thanks. I would not have said "which one do you like the best?" just "the mot". I can't give no reason though.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

The best-laid plans of mice and men. . . . I’m sorry, but this notion that best is only an adjective not an adverb is pure horse-hockey: it’s bloody-minded hyper-corrective prescriptivist poppycock with no basis in reason nor scholarship. OED: “best adv. superlative of well. 1. With vbs. In the most excellent way, in the most eminent degree; in the most suitable manner, with the greatest advantage, to the fullest extent.” Dates from OE with a citation from King Ælfred, and has hardly abated since then. @medica, best is fine. I can give a million other fine examples. — tchrist Jul 1 at 23:03

@Laure It seems that FF's answer is wrong, hence downvotes.

Mitch

@Laure Standard English you would say "I can't give a reason though." or "... any reason". "no reason" is the classic 'double negative' that is indicative of dialect (non-schooled speech). I can't think of an occasion where a language learner would want to use it, except maybe in a home where they naturally speak that way.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 I think, by FF's admission, he thinks that both are OK. I think his answer comes across as saying 'best' is wrong.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

1:02 PM

@Mitch Well, he says there's a rule that makes it wrong, but that everyone ignores the rule.

tchrist's dictionary shows that the rule doesn't exist

Mitch

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 But that rule is obviously not actually a rule, correct?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

apparently not

Mitch

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 right.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

So FF's answer boils down to a bunch of invalid justification for why one way is better, then saying "either is fine"

Laure

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Although not a native of English, I usually have a good level and grasp of the language and to me @FumbleFingers is actually saying "In practice though, most native speakers are either blissfully unaware of this distinction, or dismiss it as mere pedantry. So unless you're training to be a Grammar Nazi, assume they're equivalent." which is simple enough to understand. It just looks as if some people are making an issue where there is none to be made...

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

1:06 PM

@Laure Yes but that statement is apparently false. The distinction is not real. You don't dismiss a fake distinction as pedantry, you dismiss it because it's fake.

The only thing that I conclude from FF's answer is that there might exist a substantial number of people who incorrectly object to best as an adverb, and a sensitive writer might want to avoid offending those people's bogus sensibilities.

Because if you take out all the parts of FF's answer that discuss this fake rule, you end up with "... they're equivalent."

FF's recent comments on the answer explain that essentially the answer could be better-written and that it's what I concluded: some people have that wrong rule. He could make it clearer.

KitFox

1:22 PM

room topic changed to English Language & Usage: Of all the words in all the languages in the world, you had to talk in mine (no tags)

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

KitFox

I am so glad we're doing that.

Also, where's the part where it shows drug-related crime rate?

Because that's more the reason for the spending than the addiction part.

Andrew Leach

Unfortunately, you can't tell whether the blue line would have rocketed if the green line had not.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

right, but the crimes in that drug-related-crime-rate are only crimes because they've been criminalized.

KitFox

Well, I happen to be in agreement that robbery should be criminalized.

And smuggling.

And racketeering.

And stuff.

Stuff should definitely be a crime.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

1:26 PM

smuggling and racketeering only come into it because the product itself is illegal

KitFox

I think it is more due to the importation of the product being illegal.

And like cigarettes and alcohol, people would still do that even were it decriminalized, although I grant you it would likely cost less.

terdon

The whole idea of making something illegal in order to eradicate it is so asinine it blows my mind.

It has been attempted countless times over the years and I don't know of a single case where it worked.

Prohibition is the perfect example. All that did was essentially create the mob.

KitFox

And in any case, my point was, the chart showed the addiction rate and the spending rate whilst carefully neglecting the thing that the spending is actually directed toward.

terdon

I don't think it was ever a question of crime. It's the "morality" that people tend to get riles up about.

Plus, most drug-crimes happen because the stuff is illegal and a user will have to spend all day trying to get their hit instead of holding a regular job which is something most addicts can do if they have a regular supply of their substance of choice.

There have been some very nice pilot programs with doctors prescribing heroin for example. They would then wean their patients off it slowly. In the meantime, since the users could now get their fix safely and easily, they neither committed crimes nor died. Win all around.

KitFox

Yes, I think it was The Netherlands that demonstrated positive outcomes for people receiving drugs at a recovery clinic on a schedule.

terdon

1:34 PM

The one I mentioned above was in the UK.

KitFox

Oh, ha. Jinx.

terdon

There have been various. Prohibition simply does not work. I am against it for all sorts of reasons but apart from anything else it fails. So what's the point?

@KitFox :)

KitFox

The study I'm thinking of, they had to go at a regular time and do the drug there at the clinic.

They received counseling at the same time.

terdon

It's like prostitution. Making that illegal is just idiotic. It simply allows the mob to come in and control it which makes everything more dangerous than it needs to be. Regulating it seems the only way to go.

KitFox

Most of them were able to start focusing on building their support relationships, and repairing relationships with family, etc.

terdon

1:36 PM

When has prostitution ever been eradicated just because it was made illegal? In fact, I can't think of any single case in any society where making something illegal made it less common.

@KitFox Exactly!

KitFox

Which of course are key factors in recovery.

terdon

More to the point, if you don't have some control over the drugs in circulation, you get rat poison. Basically, clean drugs (even heroin) carefully administered don't need to kill you. Look at Keith Richards ffs! What we need is government (or whatever0 oversight and quality control coupled with counseling and what have you. Not laws!

KitFox

Socialist.

terdon

Make sure what's on the streets is clean and make sure people know about the true dangers without all the hyperbole.

@KitFox Damn straight.

Though I distrust government too much to actually be one.

KitFox

Then we'll have a gun lobby, a tobacco lobby, and a drug lobby. Awesome. I am so into that.

</sarcasm>

terdon

1:39 PM

We already have a drug lobby. They just happen to be less visible since they're in the bleedin mob.

Hmm, I should ask that on History.se actually. Has there ever been a case where making something illegal helped eradicate it? I very much doubt it.

Cerberus

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 I have posted that graph here before.

@terdon Must be extremely rare.

KitFox

Laws aren't about eradicating things anyway. Well, except lead in fuel and stuff like that.

terdon

Exactly, changing a society's behavior can't be legislated, it must come from the society itself, it is a question of education.

Cerberus

But many people do no get that, unless a third party is harmed, the state should not outlaw transactions between willing people, because it usually just doesn't work.

@terdon This will not happen.

terdon

@Cerberus It's also none of the state's bleedin business but yes, on top of that it fails.

Cerberus

1:46 PM

The only thing you can do is provide some incentives to push people in the right direction, control it, to some degree.

@terdon Well, if the state could truly save thousands of lives of its citizens, would it still not be its business?

Are you saying the state should not try to educate people about the dangers etc.?

terdon

@Cerberus No. Not if those citizens were willingly doing whatever it was that's killing them. We should definitely educate, just not forbid.

For example, the various religions that many people believe in have been the direct or indirect cause of more deaths than just about anything I can think of. That's a good reason to educate people to the point where they don't believe in everything they hear but not to make religion illegal.

Cerberus

@terdon How about if it were "cool" for depressed hipsters to bungee-jump from, say, the Eiffel Tower with make-shift ropes and willingly risk death. Would that be none of the state's business? Should it not forbig bungee-jumping from the E. T. with make-shift ropes?

terdon

Of course not!

What business is it of the state?

It should instead make the dangers very clear and provide alternatives.

Cerberus

It is a proven way to save lives with few disadvantages.

terdon

No it's not, it's the state stepping in to tell me what to do with my own life. None of its business.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

1:51 PM

@Cerberus They could easily designate that it's illegal in certain places.

terdon

Actually, in the case of the Eiffel Tower, I might accept it because you would be forcing other people to see the results. I have no wish to see a mangled body while I'm taking my afternoon stroll so this affects other people which makes it a valid target for legislation.

KitFox

There is a certain part of me that advocates for survival of the fittest, but given corporate practices of deceiving people out of their money, I think the government must take a babysitting role.

terdon

However, if I were to set up an enclave devoted to this which only like minded people can attend, then I'd have no problem with it. Well, I would not be in favor of legislation forbidding it at any rate.

KitFox

"Promote the general welfare" is codified in US law, so.

terdon

@KitFox For some things perhaps. Not for others. Not where it only affects me. I have the right to be a bloody idiot and get myself killed in imaginative ways. The state could be said to have an obligation to talk me out of it but it has no right to forbid me as long as I affect nobody else.

KitFox

1:54 PM

I am pretty sure that means that the government should direct its energies to raising superhumans.

Cerberus

@terdon Whenever someone dies, there are others to see the result.

KitFox

@terdon That's pretty narrow, though.

terdon

@KitFox I know.

KitFox

So you should move to the US.

terdon

@Cerberus Not in the case I described above. And keep in mind we're discussing obvious fringe cases here.

KitFox

1:55 PM

We're all about the 'don't tread on me' thing.

terdon

@KitFox I might actually but it won't be for the legal system :)

Cerberus

@terdon So the principal questions is, should the government never try to protect people against themselves by outlawing something, even when it works and is proportional? If not, why not?

KitFox

@terdon It's for the guns, innit? It's always for the guns.

terdon

@KitFox Yeah. I'm more on the don't tread on others thing.

@KitFox Nooooooooooooooooo!

Cerberus

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Yes. But Terdon wouldn't want that.

terdon

1:57 PM

@Cerberus No, because 1) Who the hell are you to decide to "protect" me? 2) What gives the state the right to choose what is and what is not acceptable behavior for me? What happens when the state takes a stand against something I agree with? Who gets to choose?

Cerberus

@terdon Yes, fringe cases are what you need if you want to explore the philosophical limits and ultimate consequences of an idea.

terdon

^^ agreed. Just pointing it out.

Cerberus

OK.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus But the Eiffel Tower is a shared space. It is totally fine to restrict what's allowed there. It'd be absurd for the gov't to restrict dance parties. But dance parties on the E.T.? Of course they'd be restricted.

terdon

I just believe the carrot is better than the stick. Don't make things illegal, give us incentives not to do them instead.

KitFox

1:58 PM

Well, I'm the government and it's in my mandate to protect you.

terdon

Oh man, power mad mods...

Mitch

@KitFox think of the jobs it creates

KitFox

I'm not mad with power. Just when you made the rules and gave me the reins, you said that's what you wanted me to do.

terdon