English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

@Tonepoet It isn't! The stripes are in the wrong direction and there are too many stars.

So, anyway feel free to steal my thunder or whatever...

@Will That's not a sufficient answer without a definition and explanation anyway.

You're assuming those two words are all I would write there?

You should be able to post an answer. Are you sure you're trying to answer and not trying to comment?

12:24 AM

@KitZ.Fox It says I need 10 rep (not including association bonus)

@Will It's a fair assumption. Most low rep users will post a word and pad it out to meet the length requirement.

@Will That makes no sense. The privs page say you need 1 rep to post an answer.

@KitZ.Fox The question is "protected" though.

Oh, I see.

I didn't notice that.

Admittedly I am kinda lazy, but 3 seconds on Google gets anyone started with a definition at least: dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/learner-english/…

(Although I think that definition is far from great.)

Well, we get a lot of drive-by crap that doesn't include a definition, link to a definition, and description for why the word fits.

Those get deleted.

12:29 AM

@KitZ.Fox The flag is sometimes oriented vertically with the blue portion on top and more importantly, anywhere between 13-50 stars is okay. =P

As do comments that are posted to bypass the answer requirements.

@Tonepoet Now.

@KitZ.Fox Understood.

But that poster is from 1918.

@Will It's no offense to you.

None taken!

Good. Thank you.

12:32 AM

@KitZ.Fox Okay, I'll discount you two stars for that since in 1912 Arizona became the 48th state. =P

Plus also I was a Girl Scout, so don't go citing flag code on me. We had that down cold.

I was actually just discussing that very thing with my boys last week.

@KitZ.Fox Hmm, how did you reconcile the contradiction of flag desecration (which forbade burning) and retiring the flag (which required burning)? =P

They wanted me to buy some bikini thing that was "patriotic". I explained about the thing about not wearing the flag like it's clothes.

@Tonepoet Retiring the flag via burning has a ritual associated with it. It's different than burning it in protest.

The flag is first cut into strips, then burned or buried.

Apparently, you can also fly flags unlit at night and in all weather now too. rolls eyes

And frigging rednecks don't ever seem to fly them properly or respectfully.

I mean, ffs, if you're going to plaster flags on everything, you should do it the right and proper way.

If America really means that much to you.

Nothing says "respect" like a tattered rag in the back of your truck. Douche. shakes fist at imaginary disrespectful redneck

12:49 AM

I dunno, if you're to believe the U.S. national anthem, the Star Spangled Batter, the perdurance of the flag is actually symbolically significant. Afterall, the "flag was still there", presumably tattered by all of the bombs bursting in the air. It's more or less the distinction between protest and ritualistic burning which renders it so unamerican. Political protest is a significant part of U.S. history which is enshrined by the first amendment that effectively rendered Flag Code unenforceable.

It's one thing to have it tattered as a symbol of standing fast in war, quite another to have it tattered because you put it on a pole in the back of your monster truck and drove around with it like that.

@Tonepoet I suspect that the rule is kept in order to make burning the flag a more powerful statement of protest.

But like buying marijuana in my state, the feds have agreed to not prosecute people who do it.

@KitZ.Fox That's actually not the case. First, it wasn't the original purpose of the rule. More importantly though, congress has frequently tried call for a constitutional convention for the purpose of incorporating a flag desecration amendment. You folk need to vote for more scrupulous politicians.

1:05 AM

@Tonepoet That fails the first rule of project management: Any requirement that says “we need smarter customers” is a bad requirement.

@tchrist There's good wisdom in those words. No government uses a pure democracy anymore for that reason, and even the hybrid systems like the democratic-republic of the United States suffer because of it.

"Many forms of Government have been tried, and will be tried in this world of sin and woe. No one pretends that democracy is perfect or all-wise. Indeed, it has been said that democracy is the worst form of Government except all those other forms that have been tried from time to time." — Winston Churchill.

Unfortunately, my lack of faith in the people's wits doesn't alleviate the need for them to improve them.

@Tonepoet Place your faith not in their sits but in their own allegiance to their own interests.

1:34 AM

@tchrist Hmm, I do believe that, but I lack faith in it.

Have you ever considered suffering fools gladly?

user227867

@KitZ.Fox I wonder if rednecks have red necks, hmm.

user227867

1:49 AM

@KitZ.Fox I can't even buy marijuana in mine.

@JasperLoy It's actually quite possible, since the word is probably a reference to sunburn.

user227867

I notice avatars have been changing on SE. Maybe that's the intended effect.

@JasperLoy You can here, but they want you to buy it at one of a couple dozen shops in town so the town can collect the tax on it.

user227867

@tchrist Aha, time for me to go there and buy some, lol.

Not sure it would be good for you, Jasper.

70% of Colorado sales are legal.

user227867

1:58 AM

It seems that today is Teacher's Day here.

user227867

@Tonepoet I feel that countries should do away with flags altogether.

user227867

In fact, we should do away with having countries altogether, and the world should live as one.

Mitch

2:55 AM

@JasperLoy consults a mirror

consults a second mirror to use with the first

left and right lose all coherent meaning

wow do I really look like that from behind?

@JasperLoy the answer is No, not all rednecks have red necks

I tend to stay out of the sun because I burn somewhat easily.

@JasperLoy no hell below us. Above us only sky

Living for today

@JasperLoy there'll still be jerks

@tchrist fools suffer enough as it is

user227867

5:20 AM

@Mitch There are already too many on ELU, LOL.

RegDwigнt

10:33 AM

@Tonepoet anywhere between 13 and 50 stars is not okay. For starters, anywhere between 33 and 48 stars is not right. 15 stripes are fine, though.

@RegDwigнt If you're being exact, perhaps, depending upon when you consider states officialized. However we were merely discussing the matter of how many were too many or not enough. XP

user227867

The Oxford Italian Dictionary is currently out of print. Used copies are selling for 200 USD!

user227867

@Tonepoet Your smiley suggests you really love Windows XP.

user227867

Everyone's gravatar is changing. Gravatar must have changed its hash sum algorithm.

user227867

@Færd What bird is that?

10:47 AM

Crow!

@JasperLoy They'll probably print a new edition and things will go back to normal. I can't imagine that it'd become an especially collectible book, but I can see how the price might spike like that since people do value what they consider trustworthy teachings.

Tarun

11:31 AM

As per wren and martin "That" pronoun is not use in genitive case. Could you please given an example to explain this statement. I could not get it

@Tarun 'Genitive case' is the possessive form of the pronoun: you → your, I/me → my, it → its, etc.

Your sentence says that the pronoun that has no possessive form.

There's no that's (denoting possession) or thats.

Tarun

Thanks @Færd but then how "Who" denotes possession.

@Tarun There's another word for that: whose.

> Whose car is this? (not who's)

> That’s the man whose car is on fire. (not who's)

Tarun

@Færd Thanks a lot.

user227867

12:04 PM

@Tonepoet Collins prints new editions very often compared to Oxford.

@JasperLoy Oxford trees take longer to grow.

@JasperLoy I've noticed that they seem to have more editions of their unabridged dictionary, than Merriam-Webster has of their collegiate dictionary.

When did they start?

user227867

I don't know their history, but they have had many editions of the full English/German/French/Italian/Spanish dictionaries already, and one day I might get all five.

user227867

The good thing is that the full content of these five is available at collinsdictionary.com

user227867

Oxford is more stingy, giving access to only subscribers for some content.

12:12 PM

@JasperLoy That's because Oxford's dictionary is much more voluminous though. It'd probably be fairer to compare Collins's website to Oxford Dictionaries Online, than the actual Oxford English Dictionary. It seems to have all of the definitions from the Oxford Dictionary of English.

user227867

@Tonepoet Yes, I am comparing it to oxforddictionaries.com. The English and Spanish are free but not the German, French and Italian.

Aah.

user227867

I am not a linguist or etymologist, so I really have no need for the full OED.

user227867

Even if they give me a free copy of the 20 books, I would decline.

What about a free copy of the compact edition that has all of the text in one finely printed volume? =P

user227867

12:16 PM

I need to see how small it is. Is there a sample where I can see the size at a 1 to 1 ratio?

@Tonepoet I've given that as a wedding gift before.

user227867

@tchrist LOL. Who gives dictionaries for weddings?

@JasperLoy Me.

user227867

I generally don't give wedding gifts. I just go and eat the dinner.

@JasperLoy That would require knowing how many pixels per inch your monitor displays, so I doubt it.

user227867

12:20 PM

@Tonepoet Is it possible to read without the magnifier?

Shorter Oxford English Dictionary

@JasperLoy Hmm, I don't have a copy of the single volume edition on hand, so I can't say right now.

user227867

@Tonepoet Ah OK. For a moment, I thought you would be giving me a free copy, LOL.

user227867

The Shorter Oxford English Dictionary (SOED) is an English language dictionary published by the Oxford University Press. The SOED is a two-volume abridgement of the twenty-volume Oxford English Dictionary (OED). == Print Editions == === Prequel === The first editor, William Little, worked on the book from 1902 until his death in 1922. The dictionary was completed by H. W. Fowler, Jessie Coulson, and C. T. Onions. An abridgement of the complete work was contemplated from 1879, when the Oxford University Press took over from the Philological Society on what was then known as A New English...

user227867

Considering getting this instead, hmm...

@JasperLoy I mentioned that but you said you hate multi-volume dictionaries because they're bulky.

user227867

12:26 PM

@Tonepoet Yeah, but people change. I change every day, since I am quite unstable.

user227867

From the 5th to the 6th edition of the above, 16000 words lost hyphens!

Help. I find some of the simplest questions hardest to answer. I submitted an answer to a Learners question. I'm not satisfied with the last paragraph of my answer and would like some input. The phrase under consideration is "one of (the) only five that were accepted". Is there a nuanced difference between the version with "the" and the version without? I think there is, but I'm finding it hard to pin down.

I suspected an adverb vs adjective issue, but I'm now convinced that only is an adjective in both cases. It modifies "five" in both cases.

It would be an adverb in "only five were accepted", though.

My question: is there a nuanced difference with and without "the"?

I might suggest that "One of the only five" emphasizes the uniqueness of the set. Think to contexts like "This is one of the only five ___ in the world."

@Tonepoet Doesn't that also apply to "one of only five"? -- "This is one of only five ___ in the world."

Well strictly speaking, the meaning of the sentence ultimately doesn't change, mostly because of what comes after. However I think you might be more likely to use "one of only five" if the set isn't unique, but your personal quantity is limited.

Then again it also depends upon the usual rules for the determiners too (you might use "the" for something already introduced) and my recollection is fairly hazy on the matter.

12:43 PM

@Tonepoet I'm not sure whether I asked you in the other chat, but do the 2 versions read slightly differently to you?

@Lawrence We're still in main E.L.U. chat.

@Tonepoet Yes, I realise that :) .

I posted here because the regulars here are conversant with linguistics and the technical underpinnings of the language.

I know how to use the language, and sometimes how to articulate why things sound the way they do. But when it comes to the finer details, I don't have the depth that the others here have.

There's a good sign that a usage is rare: If you perform a google search and the first answer links back to the stack exchange question you are trying to answer.

@Tonepoet Surprisingly, that often happens. :)

Yes, Google often prefers S.E., although it's even more of a tip-off that the link is to E.L.L. since we usually get links to E.L.U.

12:51 PM

@Tonepoet Just as SE hopes.

@Cerberus, @tchrist, any thoughts on my question?

@Lawrence I'm not trying to suggest that this is a bad place to discuss it by any means. I'm just surprised since you said "other".

@Tonepoet Oh, I brought it up at Language Overflow first, it being the Learners' main chatroom.

1:04 PM

@Tonepoet I think you were on to something here. I think this was kind of what the last paragraph in my answer was trying to convey. I've now redrafted my answer.

Thanks for your feedback, @Tonepoet.

@Lawrence You're welcome. I just hope it was an accurate assertion.

1:17 PM

> I used to exercise everyday, but nowadays not as much.

This use of nowadays (for comparison between one's past and present) bothers me.

@Færd Far be it from me to comment on other people's slang, but what if you put nowadays at the end of the sentence?

@Tonepoet Not to worry. I've come to my own conclusions about it, and they kind of match what you expressed. :)

@Færd What bothers you about it?