English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

Mitch

11:04 PM

@Robusto so he's suggesting that we grow a couple extra fingers?

Cerberus

@Robusto If it is written by a non-patriotic / non-American, I'd be willing to take the pooh-pooh seriously.

Johan Larsson

or jsut show them?

Cerberus

Because it is of course infinitely less useful and harder to use.

terdon

11:23 PM

Fucking hell. Greece is disintegrating around us and our idiot politicians are just shouting at each other and at the other band of imbeciles in Europe. Fuck.

Cerberus

@terdon I'm sure it will not be so terrible in the end!

How do you feel about the referendum?

It is an attractive idea, letting the demos decide.

Both Europe and Greece have taken this possibility into account a long time ago; I'm sure they are well prepared, even if Greece should default.

terdon

@Cerberus The fuck it is.

Cerberus

The government has a budget surplus, if you discount interest.

It's not?

terdon

@Cerberus WHAT?

Cerberus

They do!

terdon

11:31 PM

@Cerberus Of course not! It might have been a good idea a few months ago.

Cerberus

The timing is unfortunate.

terdon

Right now, we have one week to vote on a proposal that is 1) essentially unknown 2) not on the table anymore and 3) very hard to understand.

If they hadn't spent 5 months scratching themselves and had started the negotiations with anything approaching a plan, we might have managed something.

Cerberus

It is important that they compose an explanation of the consequences of either choice for the people.

terdon

I mean, the official ballot paper for the referendum simply states: "Do you agree with the proposal from the institutions (entitled "X" and "Y") or not?"

You'd think they'd actually provide you with the bloody papers and not just their title but that seems to be too much trouble.

Cerberus

If the government can't borrow any more, that won't be a problem as long as they don't have to pay interest any more. The banks are the biggest problem, aren't they?

Oh, the ballot has already been drafted?

terdon

11:33 PM

@Cerberus No, people getting medicine is the biggest problem. And food.

Cerberus

Or even finalized?

terdon

@Cerberus Of course, we only have a week!

Cerberus

@terdon But the government has enough money to fund whatever is being funded now, don't they?

terdon

And hey, the banks are closed and I (well, not I, but many people) need to spend a couple of hundred euros to go back to my bloody village to vote (we don't vote where we happen to be). How the hell can I do that if I can only take 60 euros from the bank?

@Cerberus No

That's why they're now asking Europe for an extension (more cash) in order to fund the referendum that they left until the last minute.

But most importantly, we don't know what we're voting for. I went to the parliament's webpage and I found the ballot but no sign of the documents I am being called upon to vote on.

Cerberus

But if the government no longer has a budget deficit before interest...

terdon

11:36 PM

How the fuck is that "democratic"?

Cerberus

That is weird, but I'm sure they will put up the documents very soon!

And some kind of clear and thorough explanation of the potential consequences.

terdon

@Cerberus Well, it does. Also, the economy is so fucked that even if we had no debt to repay, we still wouldn't have any money because we simply don't. They took all the money the embassies and the municipalities had to pay the last set of salaries and debt.

@Cerberus Yeah, right.

I just watched a gaggle of these idiots and none of them knew.

Cerberus

@terdon Why do you say it does?

I read that it doesn't?

terdon

Because we're not producing anything. People have taken all of their money out of the banks and there is basically no money left in the system. State or otherwise.

And we're wasting a few million apparently on this meaningless referendum.

Say we vote yes. What did we vote yes to? Same for no.

I am well above the average in terms of education and I can't understand the fucking document I found (which is not the right one anyway). How the hell do they expect someone who hasn't even finished school to do so?

And with just a week to study it.

We need several months for this. And public debate. And analysis. Not a bloody week!

They should have done this years ago, yes. But right now it's just ludicrous.

(and sorry for my aggression. I'm not angry at you, of course, I'm just venting)

80% of politicians in Greece (and the rest of Europe) should be taken out and shot.

Cerberus

It is indeed very short.

> Due to an improved outlook for the Greek economy, with achievement of a government structural surplus both in 2013 and 2014 - along with a decline of the unemployment rate and return of positive economic growth in 2014,[15][16] it was possible for the Greek government to regain access to the private lending market for the first time since eruption of its debt crisis - to the extent that its entire financing gap for 2014 was patched through a sale of bonds to private creditors.[17]

The improved economic outlook was replaced by a new fourth recession starting in Q4-2014,[18] related to the…

terdon

11:41 PM

Not to mention that bloody everyone is lying! Left right and center. Our guys are lying through their teeth and that ass Junker just came out and claimed his proposal (which he released through twitter FFS!) says nothing about cutting pensions. I read the thing, it does.

Cerberus

That sucks.

The EU have already formed plans to deliver medicines and such if worse turns to worst.

terdon

@Cerberus Yeah, I don't really buy that one either. We never really left recession. That's what the previous government keeps trying to claim. We might have been on the way out but at what cost?

@Cerberus Yeah, I heard that. That's good, on the one hand. On the other it shows just how fucked up the situation is.

Cerberus

Yes, the cost was tremendous.

But there may indeed be a structural surplus.

The interest they pay is astronomical!

terdon

And now we have these assholes in government who've been screwing around for months, finally came up with an (awful) proposal that the Europeans just might have accepted and now walked out over a 3% difference in VAT rates. I mean, come on!

Cerberus

Not only is the Greek national debt twice that of Holland, as a percentage of national income, but the interest Greece pays is far higher.

We pay only 1.2% or so now.

Thanks to the crisis.

terdon

11:44 PM

@Cerberus Yes it is. But bear in mind that because of the moronic austerity, production has ground to a halt.

@Cerberus And to the way it was handled. By both sides.

Cerberus

@terdon Is that really all they walked out over? Are you sure?

terdon

@Cerberus That seems to be the main point of difference between what the Greeks proposed and what the Europeans answered, yes.

Cerberus

@terdon I know. But still, the surplus itself is an oft-overlooked silver lining.

terdon

As far as I can tell anyway.

Cerberus

I heard there was more.

Something about taxing tourist.

Which the government feared would damage the economy more in the long term.

terdon

11:46 PM

@Cerberus Yeah, that's the cancelling of the lower VAT rate they have on the islands. That, however, was also in the Greek proposal so they don't get to whine about it now.

Cerberus

Oh, huh.

That's weird.

I wish our media were clearer about the contents of the latest proposals.

terdon

My main beef is that they suddenly (one week!) announced this referendum and the proposal it is over is not even on the table anymore. WTF the point then?

@Cerberus Nobody is clear. Nobody bloody knows. And yet, we're expected to vote on it.

Cerberus

I also wish they would explain better how much northern Europe has profited from the crisis, both by paying uniquely low interest rates, and by increased exports due to the low Euro rate.

terdon

We had elections less than half a year ago. We voted a government into power precisely so they could negotiate a deal since, presumably, they are better qualified to understand the ramifications. Now, 5-6 months later, they tell us that "uh, actually, fuck it, you guys decide"?

Cerberus

@terdon Well, isn't it? What if the people vote yes and Syriza says to Europe that they will accept the latest proposal? Europe says they still have "open arms".

@terdon I hope that is cleared up ASAP.

terdon

11:49 PM

@Cerberus Well that sucks too! It's a pretty bad proposal. If they want to accept it, they should shoulder the political responsibility, not put the blame on the people.

@Cerberus I very much doubt it. I don't trust either side anymore. Not that I ever really did.

Cerberus

I agree that this is very short notice.

terdon

And seriously, this is complex stuff. Very few people are actually qualified to truly judge the ramifications.

So the vote is meaningless.

Cerberus

But it sounds like a horrible dilemma for Greece, in which neither choice is acceptable, nor notably better or worse than the other. That is the kind of situation where a referendum might be in place (though it should be well organised).

terdon

Which is evidenced by the fact that they didn't even bother to release what we're voting on. The assholes.

@Cerberus Precisely. The only vote that makes sense is blank or invalid: Screw you and the referendum you rode in on. Go back and do the job you were elected for.

Cerberus

@terdon Perhaps they are still preparing it and their explanation of it for publication.

terdon

11:51 PM

Ha! If so, one of the 4 different talk shows with their gaggle of politicians I watched today would have said so.

Cerberus

I overheard a girl at the tram stop, telling her friend she was going to Greece, but she postponed her vacation for a bit, until things settled down more.

terdon

The only way this would make sense would be to have time and offer free seminars explaining the situation (preferably with teachers from all sides of the political spectrum) and only people who go through those would be eligible to vote.

@Cerberus Ah! The tourists can withdraw money normally. At least they did that.

Spread it around :)

Cerberus

I know, it was on the news.

terdon

If your card is from a foreign bank you're fine.

Cerberus

She probably knew that.

As do I, who has no plans to visit Greece in particular.

terdon

11:53 PM

What really gets me is that our political class is just shouting at each other. Instead of sitting down and talking it over.

Cerberus

But is Syriza truly of the political class?

terdon

Of course!

Cerberus

But they are new, rebels?

terdon

First of all, they're in government. So, political class by definition.

@Cerberus Bull. Shit.

Tsipras, for example, has only ever drawn a salary from the party. Different party, but so what>?

Then, we have many (loads) from the corrupt party that has led the country these past 40 years. Also quite a few from our wonderful Stalinist party. And yes, I mean Stalinist, not Communist.

Some of them are actually new to politics, yes. As far as I can tell, most of those are reporters so, again, same difference.

Cerberus

Oh, really? What was his old party?

terdon

11:56 PM

KKE

Cerberus

Kommunists?

terdon

Or KKEex as it was called back then.

@Cerberus Yup

Cerberus

Right.

Well, they were probably not establishment in any way, or were they?

I know they are in Italy.

They never were in Holland, until they changed their name.

So you don't think Tsipras is sincerely outraged at the European demands, that he does not really have Greece's best interests in mind, even if in a twisted way?

terdon

@Cerberus No, not really. But they are people who have basically made a living out of being politicians for the past 40 years or so.

Cerberus

Okay, but that is only corrupt if they have sniffed up something from the corrupt system?

terdon

11:59 PM

@Cerberus I think he's held hostage by his party. He leads a loose coalition ranging from the center left to full out Maoists (again, I don't use the term lightly). He appointed a minister for education who wanted to abolish exams for entering "experimental schools" (those that pander to the most intelligent) and instead choose by ballot because "evaluation of candidates is almost Hitlerian".

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