English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room - 2015-06-30 (page 1 of 2)

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12:00 AM

@Cerberus Oh, they're not quite as corrupt as the others. Yet. They've started hiring their mothers, brothers, lovers and cousins of course but haven't had enough time. Well, apart from the many who come from the old PASOK (governing party for most of the years since 1981).

Tsipras is not the worst of them. Not by far. We have a minister for immigration who said that the immigrants are camping in central Athens to "sunbathe" and that "I don't know where they go afterwards".

@terdon Right, that is rather extreme.

They object to any kind of merit-based evaluation of our teachers! The people who teach our children!

@terdon Not sure I understand that.

@terdon But does the coalition actually support such extreme measures?

@Cerberus Join the club. Basically, she claimed that she's given housing to all immigrants after closing down the (admittedly horrible) "welcome camps". OK, so why do we see so many immigrants lounging about central athens (and shooting heroin because the local thugs get the addicted to it). Well, she said, they're sunning themselves.

Ah OK, I get it.

That is crazy talk.

Let me try to be wise, then.

12:04 AM

@Cerberus Measures? What measures? We've never had any kind of evaluation. One of the previous governments tried to impose one (which in turn was imposed by Europe) and Syriza yelled blue murder. They don't want to hear about it: if you're in the public sector, you stay there for ever.

I have heard many people over the years announce utter doom and chaos for their respective countries. Like the guy from Libanon after the murder of Hariri.

Never so far has it come true, except when we could already see that the entire country was going to hell, such as in Iraq and Libya and such.

@terdon What I meant was: does the coalition support that crazy minister's extreme proposals?

@Cerberus What proposals? The merit based evaluation of teachers?

There is no such proposal.

No, the opposite.

lol

Whatever the crazy minister proposed.

Heh.

12:07 AM

That's not extreme! I wish it were, that's the norm.

But does the coalition support it?

The crazy europeans suggested we might actually evaluate the people working in the public sector but no, the unions wouldn't stand for it.

Well, that is a difficult dilemma.

Not really. You're being paid to do a job, if you don't do it you shouldn't be paid for it.

You might not even need to fire anyone, move them around to less demanding jobs that they might actually be qualified to do.

Teach them. Train them. Something!

They consider any kind of evaluation to be fascist. And yes, that's the word they use.

We suffer from over-evaluation here, which results in stifling bureaucracy, and in those people floating up in the hierarchy who care only about increasing overhead costs year over year, and who are in some ways just as corrupt as your civil servants.

12:09 AM

@Cerberus And that's also a bad thing.

Of course the middle road is the lesser evil.

And I presume you suffer from under-evaluation.

But can you even imagine a situation where the people in the immigration office don't speak English?

Heh.

Or are racist pricks?

Not really.

12:10 AM

Or who simply decide not to be there today?

But so you don't know to what extent the coalition support the craziest proposals of those ministers? Because I should hope they don't.

There was a famous moment where the TV crews were filming in some public service and the boss went to call for one of the employees. He went out into the deserted corridor and started looking into offices to see if anyone was there. These are people drawing salaries and just not showing up for work.

Heh.

@Cerberus Oh, they do. Many of them do anyway.

That's almost funny.

12:11 AM

@Cerberus Yup.

@terdon But enough to make them actually happen?

We'll see. Very few things have actually been brought to parliament so far. Understandably, they have their hands full.

Right.

The other ruling party is fairly moderate, isn't it?

The education minister did have to back down about exams being "Hitleric" (Hitlerish? Whatever), but not because of any outcry from his guys, it was the rest of us who laughed him out of the room.

@Cerberus You're kidding, right?

I don't know anything about them, I must have misremembered.

12:13 AM

They're far right. As in way, way right. The only people to their right are the newnazis we have.

Ah, I see.

But would they support that anti-Hitlerian proposal you mentioned?

Far right and far left can keep each other in check sometimes...

And they've appointed their leader as minister for defense. Who nearly wept (his voice kept breaking) two days ago in parliament because the evil Europeans wanted us to cut defense expenditures by 2-400 million euros (depending on the version) and "we wouldn't have gas for the planes in case Turkey attacked"

Heh.

@Cerberus They don't give a fuck about anything except 1) army 2) immigration and 3) populist, nationalistic crap.

That is silly, but no worse than what e.g. the Americans might say in their parliament.

12:16 AM

We're talking about a party that has a member of parliament who said that gay people are perverted, for example.

Well, that is not so extreme, I should imagine.

@Cerberus Really? He went to Cyprus and suggested that they buy more jets and station them in Greece so that they can defend against Turkey.

Heh.

Wonderful, last thing we need is a war with bloody Turkey!

There will be no war with bloody Turkey.

12:17 AM

...

I hope not.

Neither Turkey nor anyone else cares for such a war.

I really do.

You sound a bit alarmist now.

@Cerberus Well, Turkey's official position is that part Greece belongs to them. This is not completely insane.

Of course.

But Turkey is in NATO.

Like Greece.

12:18 AM

Yes, I don't think a war is very likely, not with Turkey, but it certainly doesn;t help when the MoD suggests to another country that they use Greece as a base of operations against Turkey.

There will be no war.

There almost was one in '96. Both countries had mobilized. Just sayin.

What he is saying is crazy talk, but it will have no consequences.

Yeah, I know. I hope so anyway.

Mobilization is not war; the army is no longer in power in Turkey; and both countries are now in NATO.

And Cyprus cares for war least of all.

If anything, new peace talks were announced recently in Cyprus.

12:20 AM

@Cerberus All of this was true in 96. But I digress. I agree that it's not very likely. Only that it can't be discarded out of hand.

Don't underestimate the difference between the Balkans and central Europe. This is not a stable zone.

Also, we regularly have incursions into Greek waters and airspace by Turkish military. As in monthly if not weekly.

Now, we also do the same to them (though we don't hear that on the news) but it's a dangerous game.

Okay, Turkey was already in NATO. But the Turkish army was in power in 1996.

But no, Turkey is the least of my worries at the moment. A civil war is far more likely.

I am glad you think it is not very likely.

A civil war, between which groups?

That sounds very unlikely, to be honest.

The yes and no. The "left" and "right".

@Cerberus No, that one is far more likely. I don't personally think it's "likely" yet but it is rearing its ugly head.

People are very polarized and very angry.

Remember that we had a military dictatorship as recently as 1974 and a civil war in the late 40ies. The previous (and some current dinosaurs) generation of politicians all (many anyway) fought in it.

We have neo-nazis killing people on the streets. Anti-fascists beating peaceful demonstrators up.

The tension is seriously mounting.

We have people immolating themselves. In Greece!

Basically, everyone is furious. Each at a different target but the anger is growing. I can't rule out that it will overflow at some point. Not tomorrow, probably, but the day after? Who knows?

I know, it is very tense.

But I am glad you still consider civil war "unlikely".

Those are still incidents.

12:27 AM

I was more worried about that a few months ago when the Nazis killed a left wing artist and then the leftists attacked one of their party's offices and sent a couple of people to hospital.

I remember.

I thought that if that escalates, we're in deep shit.

The Golden Dawn, right?

Yes.

3rd power in parliament.

THIRD

I read a long story written by a journalist who had infiltrated GD.

12:28 AM

@Cerberus Ah, I think I know the piece.

I know, that sucks.

It was pretty interesting.

But it did not make GD sound any more dangerous than before.

And the first includes people who are all out Stalinists. That's not much better. If at all.

@Cerberus They're clowns with guns. What is dangerous is that ~1 million people voted for them.

The first?

@terdon Yes, but they can be contained as long as they don't become the largest party.

Syriza.

@Cerberus Yeah, it's not them I'm worried about. It's what the fact that they're so popular implies about Greek society.

We don't have a million Nazis in Greece. Most of the people who voted for them are just lost. confused and terrified.

That scares and saddens me.

Anyway, thanks for letting me rant Cerb. I needed that and it is much appreciated :)

@terdon Oh, the largest party.

@terdon Yeah, but that is common, and usually temporary.

It will pass.

@terdon You have every right to!

12:41 AM

Grrr. That I do.

But I really think it won't be that bad.

Greece is still in the Eurozone, and it will be in the EU at least for a long time.

@Cerberus We'll see. Quite a few people in government are also making noises about leaving the EU itself. I very much doubt it but that gives you an idea of the kind of people we're dealing with here.

But either way, in or out, the country is fucked for the next decade at the very, very least.

@terdon Well, people shout such things often enough. In fact, one of our largest parties has been shouting the same thing for years.

@terdon I don't know, perhaps not.

The government budget has been reformed to a considerable extent.

12:57 AM

Yes, but the tax burden is enormous and about to go up again.

People have been bled dry, there's a soaring unemployment and even the most optimistic forecasts I've heard are talking about a hard decade.

user image

The most common assessment is at least one screwed generation.

@Cerberus Yeah. That's way out of date.

user image

@terdon But it's 2014...

I think unemployment has risen somewhat in recent months.

But not sharply.

@Cerberus Yup.

Yes, the previous government claims it's rizen. But they were fudging the data.

user image

This is from one week ago.

1:02 AM

You know, giving one month internships and counting the workforce then and the like.

Heh.

Holland has the most part-time workers of any country.

That's why our unemployment is so low.

Clever buggers :)

That site, by the way, MacroPolis.gr is excellent.

Very high paywall though.

Except The Agora

Ooh! He wrote a piece on the referendum. Cool.

Ah!

user image

You see a slight difference in the slope there? Add to that the fact that most of the GDP goes straight into paying interest on our debt.

If you default, you pay less interest than before.

> The lenders’ decision to withdraw the offer means that Greeks will walk into polling booths on Sunday to vote on a deal that no longer exists.

I'm not sure I believe this.

1:08 AM

@Cerberus It's true.

Or at least Europe is still willing to continue negotiations.

It was retracted, publicly and officially.

Perhaps not on those specific terms, but on similar terms.

Another deal has been offered. Ish.

@Cerberus Great, so which one are we voting for?

More to the point:

> Furthermore, making the referendum question about a technical document which many voters are unlikely to ever read and which contains elements that they may both agree and disagree with shows a lack of respect for citizens. - See more at: macropolis.gr/?i=portal.en.the-agora.2674#sthash.uygvBESZ.dpuf

WOah! How did they add that link?

That's clever. Pernicious but clever.

Well, that is less democratic, but a "yes" will pressure Tsipras to negotiate and accept a deal that he would not have accepted before.

1:10 AM

I'd rather he negotiate directly. Honestly. Without pushing people about.

So people might actually be disposed to help him.

@terdon What do you mean?

@Cerberus The "See more at: macropolis.gr" was added automatically. I didn't do it and it wasn't there on the page. Some JQuery magick, probably.

Ah, I see.

Can you look at your clipboard?

> Furthermore, making the referendum question about a technical document which many voters are unlikely to ever read and which contains elements that they may both agree and disagree with shows a lack of respect for citizens.

You must have done something weird.

Of course I block lots of stuff in my browser that I don't need.

> Furthermore, making the referendum question about a technical document which many voters a[...] macropolis.gr/?i=portal.en.the-agora.2674#sthash.uygvBESZ.dpuf

The link is there on the clipboard. It was inserted when I copied, I guess.

Hmm.

Yeah, the page at macropolis does it when you copy a chunk of text. I just tried it again.

That article is spot on, by the way.

Right, it happens during the copying if you allow the page to execute some Javascripts.

> Greeks have to go to polling centers with absolute clarity about what is at stake and to know that none of the options they face are particularly good.
“Yes” means possibly rescuing Greece’s eurozone membership but having to adopt further painful measures to do so after five years of torturous adjustment. “No” means leaving the euro and embarking on a journey full of uncertainty and pitfalls that threaten even greater pain. In all honesty, it is a terrible choice – one full of fear and devoid of hope – but Greeks must make it in full knowledge of what is at stake.

I agree with this.

1:15 AM

Absolutely.

> There is no way that the current government can implement measures that it has campaigned against and labelled as being unacceptable. Lenders have already made it absolutely clear that they believe Tsipras’s administration has no credibility. The only options available if the “Yes” vote wins is if there is a government of national emergency including SYRIZA and opposition parties.

But I am not sure I believe this.

?

It was quite clear that his MPs wouldn't vote for it.

That, I think, is basically the reason for this farce of a referendum.

But still.

If the people vote yes, surely they will implement it to some extent...

His MPs had already stated they wouldn't. Even some ministers. Hell, even the speaker for the house.

@Cerberus That's a huge if. Honestly, I find it very unlikely. If we're lucky, the no will win but by a small margin.

Do you believe the polls that said that there was a comfortable majority for "yes"?

1:18 AM

Yes

OK.

No!

Hang on

Haha.

I think there is a majority for saying no to the agreement.

Ah OK.

But the first polls said the opposite.

1:18 AM

No hard evidence though. I'll check.

Held by some newspapers, I believe.

There is a majority for staying in Europe and the euro, mind.

I meant polls about this referendum.

The results were mentioned yesterday or so.

But they may not be representative.

I haven't seen any here yet. Looking for some now.

> Surveys say nearly 60 per cent of Greeks in favour of accepting terms of Eurozone bail-out deal

telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/greece/11705421/…

Hmm but those polls were conducted before the referendum was announced.

1:22 AM

Ι found 42.

@Cerberus :) Exactly

42% for "yes", or for the European proposal before The referendum was announced?

@Mitch No. Just that we grow up and stop using fingers to count. (If you need a counting aid, try finger joints, leaving out the thumbs.)

Meanwhile, I have been smelling fire on and off for an hour now. But it seems to come from out the windows.

@Cerberus "Alex Bellos was born in Oxford and grew up in Edinburgh and Southampton. He studied mathematics and philosophy at Corpus Christi College, Oxford, where he was the editor of the student paper Cherwell. His father is translator and academic David Bellos."

Ah OK, a conservative Brit. That figures!

3 hours later…

4:50 AM

@DamkerngT. Thanks, but I'm not sure what my intended recipients would make of those.

5:18 AM

@Cerberus better outside the window than inside. I think you'd notice if it were inside.

3 hours later…

8:33 AM

@FaheemMitha Welcome, and no worries. Keep in mind that I'm not really sure about your intended meaning, your relationship, your occasion, and such. I tried those two examples because they're the closest idioms I was able to think of. Also, IMHO, sometimes simple words work better.

I was guessing that perhaps words like meddle, intrude, or involve may work better. And most of the time, simple words similar to your original phrasing, like "I don't want to tell you how to run your business" or "I don't want to tell you what you should do when you already know" would work better.

2 hours later…

10:48 AM

@terdon "in some public service"?

@DamkerngT. Ok, thank you.

@FaheemMitha Yes. Don't remember which.

@DamkerngT. Yes, sure. I agree, without context it's difficult to make a call.

I'd go for teach, by the way.

@terdon your Greece sounds as screwed up as India. A Mediterranean relative.

@terdon I don't mean to teach you your business, or similar?

@FaheemMitha Yup.

10:51 AM

There are big headlines in our today's paper about Greece being about to default on some debt. Needless to say, I don't know much about Greece's finances.

@FaheemMitha I know, I know.

@terdon Yes, I know you know. :-)

I sound like Sybil bloody Fawlty.

@terdon Did she not like Greece then?

@terdon I don't know if I've said this before, but for a continental European you sound remarkably like an Anglo-American.

Indian politicians are either criminals or lunatics. Sometimes both at the same time.

@FaheemMitha Nah, it's the "I know" line.

@FaheemMitha You do know I am American and went to university in the UK right?

@FaheemMitha Yup. Same here. Same pretty much everywhere, as far as I can tell really.

11:00 AM

@terdon Well, your father is American. I.e. from the US. But you have not lived there, right? And yes to the latter. York.

I forget where your mother is from.

@terdon I got the impresssion some of the smaller wealthy Western European countries are a little better off. Though they are probably the exception.

I.e. Denmark. Possibly also the Netherlands & Finland.

Danes seem to think of their pols as amiable idiots. Which is better than how most people view theirs.

@FaheemMitha No, I haven't but I grew up with a lot of Anglo-Saxon cultural influences.

@terdon Apparently. I'm guessing your mother is Greek.

And mom's Greek. Well, ish. She was born and raised in Greece anyway.

@FaheemMitha True, I think of the Greek ones as borderline insane, criminally incompetent, corrupt idiots.

@terdon They sound like fun. But I would still back our local home-grown variety against yours. India builds Bigger, Better Idiots.

11:22 AM

@FaheemMitha I doubt it.

Hmm, I sense a competition.

I really don't give a fuck at the moment, to tell you the truth. My country is disintegrating around me, competing about who has the worse politicians is not something I much care about.

Suffice it to say that ours have driven the country into the dirt.

I'm still unclear what actually went wrong.

But don't feel obliged to explain.

@FaheemMitha sorry about being terse, by the way. I'm a bit tense these days. The situation here is disintegrating and fast, and I lash out.

@FaheemMitha When?

@terdon Oh, no problem. We all have different temperaments. I tend to yell at people. But that doesn't really come across on the net.

On the Net, nobody can hear you Scream.

2

Hey, that's pretty good.

11:31 AM

Huh, yeah.

@terdon Well, at least you have the option to move. To the US, for example.

@terdon The whole Greek situation. I've been hearing about it for years. But I don't really know any details.

Yeah. Most don't though. And many will. As economic migrants just like our grandfather's generation did.

This is assuming you are a US citizen. Since your father is.

If you aren't, you're probably better off staying in the EU.

@FaheemMitha In a nutshell: corrupt greek politicians have been spending WAY more money than we make for many, many years. Since joining the EU, we took out a metric crapton of loans which the Europeans knew perfectly well we could never repay. Now, the shit has hit the fan.

@FaheemMitha I am.

@terdon ok

@terdon That sounds impressively irresponsible.

11:35 AM

The Europeans/IMF have been pushing the imbecilic idea of austerity+loans as a solution to the problem. As in, you owe a lot of money and have 30% unemployment? OK, well, raise taxes and have some more loans at exorbitant interest rates.

This has basically killed off what little was left of the Greek economy and devastated the most vulnerable parts of society.

We now have a populist radical left government that came into office promising the impossible (writing off the debt, bringing back minimal wage to pre 2010 levels etc). They, of course, failed since the Europeans don't want to hear of it and now we're fucked. The banks are closed and the deal we have with Europe expires today and we're going to default on a payment due to the IMF. Which will cause all sorts of issues.

@terdon Yes, that austerity thing is apparently being pushed by Germany for example. That I did heard about.

@terdon Unsurprisingly.

It always amazes me how devoid of common sense people who run countries are. Or maybe they wanted to trash Greece, in this instance. Though I don't see why.

Yup. Basically, we have two head strong groups of ideologues vs technocrats. Both of whom are playing with the country's future.

Was taking out those loans necessary? And what was the money used for - industrial development?

@FaheemMitha That's what the left is screaming here. And the far right. No idea why they would want to and they don't seem to have any better reason than "they hate us" or "they're jealous of our glorious heritage" and similar crap.

@FaheemMitha Ha! No, it was used to pay back the previous loans. You see a problem there?

@terdon That's what is called a Ponzi scheme, I believe.

And what were the "original" loans for?

11:40 AM

heh, yeah, not far.

@FaheemMitha Oh, development etc. In fact, they were used to build villas for the political classes.

@terdon Hmm, so what do you think? That Germany just wants its money, perhaps?

@terdon ??!!

@FaheemMitha Germany wants the eurozone to be like them. They don't understand that each country is different, both culturally and economically. They also don't want to admit that they were wrong.

@FaheemMitha What? You think India is special?

@terdon Not really, no.

@terdon You mean following those policies works for Germany.

Hell, we have an ex minister of defense (among other things) in jail for embezzling huge amounts of money while making "armament deals". While in jail, he apparently tried to order a hit on one of the potential witnesses against him. This is the type of person we've had governing us for the past 40 odd years.

Messed up as India is, there is a sadly long list of countries worse off. Starting with its neighbors, Pakistan, and Bangladesh. Not to mention Nepal. Though I don't know much about it.

@terdon Ok, I'm impressed.

11:43 AM

@FaheemMitha Yeah. But they have a very different system and a very different mentality. What works for the Germans will not really work for the Greeks.

@terdon Yes, I can see that.

They got the country together with impressive speed after WW2.

Not sure exactly what they did. They did get some help from the West, possibly. Marshall Plan and so forth. Though I've heard mixed things about the Marshall Plan.

But not every country is Germany, true.

@FaheemMitha They had their bloody debt written off! Precisely what they refuse to do to us now.

Oh and Greece ranks (slightly) lower than India in the corruption index:

transparency.org/cpi2014/results

2

Ah, no, hang on. I may have misread that.

Yes, India is ranked lower than Greece. But not much.

@terdon Oh, is that right? Hmm.

@terdon Hard to imagine anything being worse than India.

Greece is 69th and India 85th.

@terdon Oh, so India is worse. Gotcha.

11:50 AM

:)

I'd have been slightly surprised if it is was the other way around.

I dont believe those stats :P

No offense, but that is damning with faint praise. We're less corrupt than India! Whohoo! I'm more intelligent than Keanu Reeves!

@skillpatrol Why not?

Well, you know what they say about stats. Lies, damn lies, and statistics.

Not to be confused with statisticians, of course.

@terdon Poor Keanu. What did he ever do to you? :-)

How does one even clearly define "corruption" let alone measure it?

11:52 AM

Nothing, I'm sure he's a sweet guy.

@skillpatrol Oh, all sorts of indices. Bribery, transparency, scandals, money trail. That's an independent group that tends to be quite good.

Are the laws consistent in all countries?

@skillpatrol No and that's part of the problem. Some countries expect their government to explain how it manages its funds. Others, like Greece and India, allow the politicians do steal.

How does that compare to the 911 scandal?

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