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11:04 AM
...united with the kingdom
 
Congratulations, Scots! You are now officially chickens.
 
It is better to be a living chicken, than a dead duck!
 
Please alter the hate tirades against the Brits in Trainspotting, and on a general note, make Irvine Welsh shut up. (He doesn't even live in Scotland, by the way, just so you know.)
And don't anyone else ever dare make another movie, book, or joke about how the British are some kind of greedy oppressors. Kthxbai.
@MattЭллен obviously you are not a mind reader, otherwise you wouldn't have asked that.
 
Who knows maybe they will have their Gandhi one day
 
Yeah. When the oil's run out and they're dirt poor again.
That will be a much better timing.
 
11:12 AM
the salt ran out in india
 
They have a whole Indian ocean of salt.
 
not after the brits taxed it
 
What did I just say about making the British look as some kind of greedy oppressors?
 
didn't you watch the movie?
 
Why would I watch a lie about an actual fact?
I can just take the fact and run away with it.
 
11:15 AM
Kthxbai.
 
For starters, Gandhi looked nothing like Itzhak Stern.
 
don't get me started for starters
 
@RegDwigнt I didn't know you'd say that
 
WTF 2020 UEFA final in London?
They just had their Olympics.
 
yay. drunken football fans tramp through the capital. just like every Saturday, then.
 
11:27 AM
On the plus side, another win for Germany on UK soil.
Unless London secedes till then.
 
lol, quite possible
 
room topic changed to English Language & Usage: Filmed in front of an undead studio audience (no tags)
 
@RegDwigнt Gandhi looked like Ben Kingsley.
 
hey
lol
 
Anonymous
11:55 AM
🐌
 
Would you eat them in a box?
 
Jez
@Robusto May the Union survive and prosper for another 300 years (albeit under a much more devolved structure for all its constituent parts)
and, frankly, may the Tories die a horrible death and be replaced by UKIP :-P
 
Yes! Put the women in the kitchens where they belong!
 
Jez
@RegDwigнt well you've nailed your colours to the mast. Scotland will be better off as part of Britain and they will get more devolution, to be able to have substantially different social policies from the rest of the UK. independent they would have had a totally uncertain future with a best-case scenario being "sort of as OK as they are now"
but, i suppose anyone seceding from "London" is a good thing, eh? well, i hope all the US and Canadian states start seceding. Then we can sit back and laugh at your countries breaking up
 
hey
@RegDwigнt then what about Gordon James Ramsay? what will he do?
 
Jez
12:06 PM
@RegDwigнt seriously, wtf are you talking about in your last few messages? they seem disconnected with reality. have you been up all night with the Scots, drinking? :-)
Gandhi was separating India from Britain (which included Scotland). India is on the other side of the world and has very little in common with Britain. Scotland is not, and has a lot in common. Comparing the two is asinine
 
hey
true!
 
Jez
Talking of India, it is curious, isn't it, how such a massive country (bigger than Britain) happily stays united as one. Shouldn't you be supporting all sorts of independence movements around India? it has a million languages and cultures that surely "deserve self-determination", no?
but, oh, they wouldn't be getting independence from the evil Londoners. that changes eeeeverything
centralized power is only bad when it's London... apparently (not that Scotland doesn't have ever-increasing devolution)
 
hey
I Know how united we are! :(
 
Jez
sad face?
why
 
hey
it's just to showoff
 
Jez
12:10 PM
yeah wasn't some politician talking about making Dehli "more Indian"? Heh, what does that even mean? India is a total mish-mash of cultures and languages
ironically its borders were basically drawn by the British, and Indians today happily accept them
crazy
 
@Jez It's even worse than you think.
 
hey
Who told you are happily accepting it?
we have fought 3 wars for that
The Kashmir conflict (Hindi: कश्मीर विवाद - Kaśmīr Vivād, Urdu: مسئلۂ کشمیر‎ — Masʾala-ē Kašmīr) is a territorial dispute between the Government of India, Kashmiri insurgent groups and the Government of Pakistan over control of the Kashmir region. Although an interstate dispute over Kashmir has existed between India and Pakistan since the Indo-Pakistani War of 1947, there is also an internal conflict between Kashmiri insurgents—some in favour of Kashmiri accession to Pakistan and others seeking complete independence for the area. India and Pakistan have fought at least three wars over Kashmir,...
 
Jez
@hey i wasnt aware of that, Indian civil wars?
Kashmir is a little area on the borders though. we're not talking about India proper.
that big chunk of land called the Indian subcontinent
 
hey
Yes but that is reason for many terrorist activities in India!
 
Jez
they're all united as a country, despite tons of different languages and cultures. they should have been telling the Scottish that the UK can be, too
(not that Scotland has much of a different language or culture to Britain)
instead you got asinine messages of support for Scotland to be freed of the "British tyranny" or whatever
anyway i really have to get back to work. heh, they should make this a national holiday in Britain, "unity day"!!
 
hey
12:17 PM
hahahaha
 
Jez
one thing's for sure: Andy Murray is gonna get a lot less support at Wimbledon, lol
I think his heyday as a top-level tennis player is over, anyway
but what a traitor
English people cheering him on (as a BRIT, not a SCOT) every time he entered and then he tweets at the last minute to support the yes campaign. Andy Murray won a lot of enemies.
 
Man, OCD is a bitch:
0
Q: Why can't Corn have 13 rows of seeds?

user31782Every time before eating a corn, I count its lines. I would always find 12 or 14 rows of seeds but never 13. Is there any biological/scientific reason behind this?

 
@hey are aware about new updated exam time table?
 
hey
@RutvikSutaria Ya bastards. What was the need of 2 days holiday in english!!
 
12:33 PM
why the hell they want to prepone the exams?
 
hey
might be they want to give holidays in computer and english instead of physics and chemistry. lol
 
We cant do anything, except preparing bit more faster!
 
 
1 hour later…
1:45 PM
@Jez You are vastly oversimplifying the political situation in India. Also, don't forget that when India was created, so too was Bangladesh and Pakistan and both of those have had political upheavals since then.
 
Jez
@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 true, but it doesnt alter the fact that india is a huge and diverse country that basically holds together as one country
which makes the proposed Scottish breakoff, from my view, all the more crazy, considering all the ties and shared history it has with its British kin
 
@Jez Mainly because nobody is empowered enough to allow secession.
Peaceful secession is a sign of enlightenment and civilization. No opportunity for secession is a sign of repression.
 
Jez
or maybe because there aren't a bunch of little-minded nationalists around, and people generally realize they're better off as part of something bigger on the world stage?
 
Come on. Your nationalism is the same as theirs. They just don't like YOU.
 
Jez
@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 well i dont really agree. if you allowed secession at any bunch of people's whim, you'd have states fracturing all over the place. little secession movements all over the world have to be told "no" all the time
 
1:48 PM
I am going to try to learn French in Nov and German in Dec, lol.
 
@Jez No, I don't think you would. There are obvious benefits to larger nations.
 
Jez
@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 "they"? what, the minority who were successfully brainwashed by vile SNP propoganda into thinking all English were bastards?
 
Just look at the US. It was founded as a collection of independent states, yet over 200 years it turned into essentially one big one.
 
Jez
@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 right. and at no point have any states tried to secede.
 
@Jez "brainwashed"... geez, the English are so condescending to the Scots.
@Jez Right. And at no point as Scotland ever tried to not be part of England. Oh wait, we've had this conversation the other day.
 
Jez
1:50 PM
@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 not really. history has shown time and time again (sorry to Godwinize, but the nazis for example) that playing on people's emotions and nationalistic "them vs. us" mentality can win a lot of votes
the SNP's goals may not have been as evil as the Nazis', but their propoganda methods were pretty close
 
My point is that even after the US Civil War the US has evolved into a more singular nation than collection of individual micronations.
 
Wait, you are still having the same discussion? OMG.
 
Jez
@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 i'm not the one trying to defend the denial of self-determination sometimes. you are. so, you have to defend Lincoln's actions. go ahead.
 
Why do different kinds of animals have different kinds of faces?
 
Jez
"even" after the US Civil War?
how about "especially" after it? "if you try and secede we'll fucking kill you" is a pretty good deterrent
 
1:52 PM
@Jez Actually, I addressed that last time. I am torn about Lincoln's actions. On one hand, states should be allowed to secede. On the other hand, one ultimate consequence of his actions was the abolishment of slavery. BUT, that wasn't his main goal, nor even his initial goal.
 
Jez
@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 so really it's irrelevant to the discussion of self-determination.
it's an excuse thrown in to try and muddy the issue.
 
@Jez I didn't bring up the US Civil war. I pointed out how the US has actually evolved to be a more singular nation rather than a collection of allied states.
i.e. not what you're saying would happen.
 
Jez
no, but i'm bringing up the US Civil war
 
If it takes unanimous consent to join a party, it should take unanimous consent to leave it.
 
Jez
and i'm saying that it evidently did not evolve to be a singular nation because a civil war had to be invoked to force it to happen
 
1:54 PM
@tchrist What? Of course not.
 
Oh, certainly.
The city of Detroit does not have authority to secede even if a majority of Detroit voters choose to do so.
 
@Jez The states could have continued on as separate little concerns.
 
That’s the whole idea of a federated union.
Only when the entire union votes to get rid of Detroit do they have the right to join Canada.
 
@tchrist So what if 99.999% of Detroits residents want to secede, but one guy is holding out?
 
You misunderstand.
Perhaps I have misspoken.
The union gets to decide who is in the union.
Not the member states.
 
1:56 PM
So, if the union decides that Ontario is part of the union, tough luck for Ontario?
 
One state cannot vote to leave the rest.
All states must vote on the matter.
There are formal rules for this.
 
Jez
@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 what?
 
@Jez The US is formally organized more like the EU than like Britain. Each state is practically its own country. But over time more and more power has been uploaded to the federal government.
 
Jez
@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 I think you mean "appropriated by"
so yeah, a federal UK looks like the way to go. and then, after a couple of hundred years, maybe all the power will slowly have filtered its way back to London DC again. ;-)
 
@Jez You can use whatever loaded words you want. The same argument applies to Scotland and England. All the power was appropriated by England.
 
Jez
1:59 PM
i'm all for English, Welsh, and NI parliaments with London as a federal capital
@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 and now it's being devolved again.
 
@Jez Well, that started back when they finally got their own parliament.
 
You cannot have just one state haring off because it feels like it.
 
Jez
and all that power being appropriated by DC would seem to be quite a good analogy, dont you think?
@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 yep, gifted to them by Blair. Blair didnt have to.
 
Maine could not by themselves vote to secede, because that requires a vote of the entire Union.
If the entire Union is in favor of the divorce, then and only then may it be granted.
 
Jez
@tchrist heh see now that's really respecting the right to self-determination :-)
 
2:00 PM
That is Lincoln’s argument.
 
Jez
yeah quite
and the US paints him as a great man
 
The Union gets to decide who is the Union.
Anything else is nonsense.
 
Jez
part of the pledge is "one nation, indivisible". i presume that was written before Lincoln?
 
So, I’m going away for an hour or three. If this silliness is still going on, I plan to hoist the jolly rodger and start cutting throats.
Notice has been given.
 
@tchrist You can. Why not? The US has supported the secession of lots of other nations' states. Why shouldn't the same right be afforded to their own people?
 
2:04 PM
Read the Constitution.
And mind the dead-man timer.
 
I've read the constitution. It's not infallible. It has this whole long section about allowing rednecks to own guns.
 
Jez
@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 what about the pledge. "one nation, indivisible"?
that was being said before Lincoln wasnt it?
 
Who cares?
"indivisible"... that's BS.
 
Jez
well, the founding fathers apparently didnt believe in the right for states to secede
if they were declaring the nation "indivisible"
 
It also says "under God"
 
Jez
2:05 PM
that's much more recent
Christian nutbags in the 50s
i think we can discount that bit
 
There is no almighty God.
 
The founding fathers were not gods. They didn't get everything right.
The constitution of the US also declares black people to be only 5/8ths human.
 
It should be one world under me instead, lol.
 
Jez
@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 we're talking about the practicality of allowing every little secession movement to be granted self-determination, not what's "right"
 
@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Really?
 
Jez
2:07 PM
@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 and it seems Americans have generally taken the view that allowing self-determination even to the whole southern half is not acceptable
for that reason i find it extremely hypoctirical of them to take some kind of moral high ground on secession movements
especially when they're happy to crush ones they're not happy with (ie. Islamic State)
oh come on
that was flagged as offensive???
 
@Jez Yes, fine, they are hypocritical. Does the existence of one hypocritical nation change the politics of your nation? The history of England and Scotland? The fundamental notion that self-government is a human right?
 
Jez
@MattЭллен hey
 
@Jez Which comment?
 
@Jez you did say "nutbag"
 
Jez
@MattЭллен my stuff is being unfairly flagged
@MattЭллен if im banned please see sense and unban me
 
2:09 PM
Should I flag the laws of my country too, in this chat?
 
Jez
"nutbag" is a flipping mild term
 
@Jez I tried to dismiss the flag as invalid but it had already been dealt with.
 
Jez
this is chat not political correctness class
 
"flipping"? Now that's crossing a line.
 
Jez
:-)
 
2:10 PM
@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Really? How very precise!
 
@Shog9 Different people have different lines, of course.
 
Jez
@WillHunting indeed. dare i mention..... chewing gum?
 
@terdon my mistake. It's 3/5ths.
 
@Jez Anyway, I might write my PM a letter some time next year to tell him how I think my country should be changed. I hope I don't go to jail for it.
 
@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Seriously, do they actually give a specific value? Not some vague wording about being less than human?
 
2:12 PM
The Three-Fifths Compromise was a compromise reached between delegates from southern states and those from northern states during the 1787 United States Constitutional Convention. The debate was over if, and if so, how, slaves would be counted when determining a state's total population for constitutional purposes. The issue was important, as this population number would then be used to determine the number of seats that the state would have in the United States House of Representatives for the next ten years, and to determine what percentage of the nation's direct tax burden the state would have...
 
Jez
@WillHunting i guess you should be glad you dont live in Hong Kong, which over the next 50 years or so will be turned into just another Chinese city because the British gave it away for some reason. sad.
 
@Jez Their lease ran out.
 
@Jez S is not much better than China...
 
Jez
i foresee a vibrant city of multiple languages and cultures and freedom being Chinesified and owned by the community government
@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 sure, and the negotiations started. that didnt mean giving it away.
 
@Jez No, they agreed to hand it over years and years before.
 
Jez
2:14 PM
@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 considering what we call Hong Kong today (the city) was pretty much built by the British, I object to any description that we "gave it back". we just "gave it" to the Chinese
@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 they agreed in the 80s, IIRC
 
@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 OK, absurd as that is, it does not seem to mention color but freedom. So, according to that, slaves count as 3/5ths but free people of any color are counted as full humans excepting the Indians.
 
Jez
why they agreed to give it up after the lease ran out is why i am confused.
 
@terdon Well, pretty much all the black people were slaves, and indians were zero.
 
@Jez Would you rather they go back on their agreement and start a war with China?
 
Jez
but it's sad. it's clear what the Chinese government, predictably, plans to do with Hong Kong. Bring it under their iron first.
 
2:15 PM
@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Not according to what you just posted:
> Representatives and direct Taxes shall be apportioned among the several States which may be included within this Union, according to their respective Numbers, which shall be determined by adding to the whole Number of free Persons, including those bound to Service for a Term of Years, and excluding Indians not taxed, three fifths of all other Persons.
 
Jez
@terdon no, but i'd rather they had told China the lease was to be extended. China wasnt even that powerful in the 80s
 
@terdon Right. So ALL free people count, Indians don't count, and the rest (i.e. black slaves) count as 3/5ths.
 
Exactly, which implies that black people who are not slaves are counted as full humans.
 
I wonder which is worse, Africa or North Korea or Middle East, lol.
 
So it's not being black that makes you a fractional human, it's being a slave.
 
2:17 PM
@terdon Of which there are so few as to make that distinction irrelevant.
 
Jez
@WillHunting North Korea.
 
@terdon But being black is what makes you a slave.
 
@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Is that true? Even in the Northern states?
 
also, if anyone's interested in the story of those "nutbags" Jez mentioned, Wikipedia has a not-bad writeup on it
 
@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Only in the south at that time and not everyone in the south either.
 
2:18 PM
@Jez Anyone born in those 3 places are very very unlucky...
 
Jez
@WillHunting i dunno, parts of africa (generally the parts that were most colonized) aren't too bad
 
Guys, Africa is a continent not a country. There are huge differences between say Swaziland and Angola.
 
Jez
parts that weren't colonized much are in more disarray
@WillHunting however, yeah, virtually anyone born in NK is very unlucky.
 
@terdon Yes, I know. I was referring to many countries in that continent.
 
@Shog9 Oh man...:
The Knights of Columbus is the world's largest Catholic fraternal service organization. Founded by the Venerable Father Michael J. McGivney in New Haven, Connecticut, in 1882, it was named in honor of the mariner Christopher Columbus. Originally serving as a mutual benefit society to low-income immigrant Catholics, it developed into a fraternal benefit society dedicated to providing charitable services, promoting Catholic education and actively defending Catholicism in various nations. There are more than 1.85 million members in nearly 15,000 councils, with nearly 200 councils on college campuses...
 
Jez
2:19 PM
NK is probably the most horrendus place to live in the history of mankind
 
Yes, because a marauding mass murderer embodies all the values of Christianity.
@Jez Oh come on!
 
Jez
> he led the Society in swearing the Pledge with two words added, "under God." He stated that the words came from Lincoln's Gettysburg Address.
hah! so not only did Lincoln deny half of america self-determination, he inspired an unconstitutional addition to the pledge too! This guy is getting worse by the minute ;-)
 
@Jez You can't blame someone for what someone else is inspired to do.
Charles Manson claims inspiration from the Beatles. Is any of his work their fault?
 
@Jez I don't particularly want to defend Lincoln but all he did was use the words "under God" (according to your quote), you can't lay the blame for what others did based on that at his feet.
 
@terdon jinx
Anyway, @jez. I still don't see why Lincoln matters to Scotland. Are you saying he was right, or wrong? Are you saying people don't have a right to self-government? If not, what cause would you have to complain about England joining the EU, or England being conquered by Germany?
In the days of Lincoln it was still "okay" for one nation to go to war with another nation in order to gain territory.
In modern days that is forbidden.
Have we learned nothing in the last 150 years? or even 50 years?
I just don't see how one can justify preventing secession with war.
 
2:26 PM
@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Umm.. No?
 
@terdon I guess not.
 
Jez
@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 i'd say it depends on the circumstance, but that pragmatically, it doesn't make sense to just always side on "these people have the right to self-determination".
that's not the way it works or there would be waaaaay more little countries in the world
 
And if you're not willing to use war to prevent secession, then what are you willing to use?
 
Jez
@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 well, a British pledge of allegiance might be a good start. that seems to have done a pretty good job of keeping the US together, civil war notwithstanding
not that our government would dare to do that
 
@Jez pragmatically, things work better when people work together. Up to certain limits. And if they get along. But that doesn't mean that every small group just just merge with its neighbours.
@Jez Please. The pledge does nothing.
It's just rote words kids are forced to say and never think about.
 
Jez
2:28 PM
@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 no, but it does mean that once merged, just letting referendums happen all over the place is messy and unproductive. people often think they'll be better off independent and aren't
@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 srsly?
 
A nation should EARN its citizens allegiance, not force it upon them.
 
Jez
@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 the US is freaking obsessed with being "proud to be American". i'd say that hammering the pledge into children's minds has a lot to do with that
 
@Jez Democracy is messy and unproductive. Surely tyranny would be more efficient?
 
@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 YES!
 
Jez
@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 as i said, it's about pragmatic decisions
 
2:29 PM
@Jez Yes, they are. So?
 
@Jez I'm 100% sure the pledge has NOTHING to do with that.
 
Jez
pragmatically, i'd say the UK makes sense as a nation so yeah, we should to try to prevent separation
 
The pledge is probably more of a symptom than a cause, yeah.
 
Jez
if the Scottish were taking up arms against Britain en masse, it might have been time to let them go. until then...
 
@Jez But what about human rights? pragmatically, it would make sense for the government to just take whatever it wants when it wants something. Like, they want to build a road, but you have a house there? Too bad. You're broke now. That's pragmatic and efficient.
 
2:30 PM
@Jez Less sense than the US. Less sense than most actually since it is a mixture of multiple nations. That's not to say it shouldn't remain together, just saying that if anything, it makes less sense than most.
 
But in civilized places we don't allow that. The government has to at least buy your house from you.
 
Jez
@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 by being part of a larger nation, and having devolution, you're pretty much losing nothing. certainly nothing as significant as your paid-for property
in the round you are benefitting
 
@Jez Yes, fine, try to prevent separation. I'm not saying Scotland SOULD secede. But try to prevent separation by making Scots feel like they WANT to stay.
 
Jez
@terdon so, why should it remain together? why should other large countries like Brazil, India, Russia, China, etc?
 
@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Except maybe if you got the house through improper means.
 
2:32 PM
@Jez Because its people want it to.
 
@Jez Um, I argued FOR devolution and was IN FAVOUR of the Scots getting a parliament the last time we discussed this, and you were all like "Oh noes! They got a parliament, now they want to leave! We should have never given it to them!"
@Cerberus That's a totally separate question.
 
winks
 
Jez
@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 partially, yes. but if the entire reasoning behind wanting separation (and a lot of it was in this referendum) is about pure emotion, nationalism, and no particularly solid rational arguments, then the reasoning for separation is bunkum and should be overruled
 
@Jez that's... a bit naive. Plenty of ways to lose property without having it explicitly taken from you. Tax laws are a great way to do that...
 
Jez
@terdon and why do they want it to?
 
2:34 PM
@Jez I dunno, you're the one who espouses that idea, you tell me.
 
@Jez Sure... and Scottish separation had NOTHING AT ALL to do with the fact that the Scots feel underrepresented in Parliament and feel like they have little control over many legal matters that affect them? Oh wait, you agreed that that was the case.
 
Jez
@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 well, we are where we are. now that they have a parliament i think a federal uk is the way to go. but no i wouldn't have given them one before Blair did, i would have reformed Westminster to give fairer representation to all parts of the UK
 
By the way, so far, your arguments against Scottish independence are completely based on "pure emotion, nationalism, and no particularly solid rational arguments".
 
Jez
@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 and i'm agreeing now (though much less so thanks to the Scottish parliament and the upcoming devo-max)
 
Anyway, I will agree that there are limits on what size population group or geographic area should be allowed self-governance. But I don't know where that size limit is and it's certainly much lower than "Population and area of Scotland".
 
Jez
2:36 PM
@terdon no. i think Scotland is and will continue to be better off as part of Britain
 
@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Ah, that was exactly my earlier point.
 
Jez
@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 well i don't know about that. Even Britain's quite small in the scheme of things and Scotland even smaller, with a mere 5 million people.
 
@Jez I know, but you are supporting that opinion largely based on emotion and nationalism. Your only "rational argument" was about the economic benefits. I don't know enough to judge it so that may well be true (it sounds reasonable enough) but the rest of your arguments tend to be very nationalistic.
 
Jez
that's getting towards "too small for sensible independence" if you ask me.
and yes im aware there are some micro-states that are relics of history
 
@Cerberus Well, you were talking about neighbourhoods seceding from cities. I am talking about regions seceding from nations. for the city-level politics the limits are much, much smaller.
 
2:38 PM
@Jez Come on, there are independent countries with ~40000 people. Probably many with less.
 
Jez
relics of history.
 
i.e. I could imagine a single household being its own city.
 
Jez
the vast majority of these tiny regions have merged into bigger countries and in the modern world, that makes a lot more sense
 
@Jez So Britain should just merge with the EU then and form one big country.
 
Jez
you need leverage in a globalized world and you dont get that by being a small country
 
2:39 PM
Everyone in Europe speaks English so it will be fine.
 
Jez
@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 i think we've been through this one before, but... Scotland has a lot more in common with Britain than Britain does with the EU. the former union makes a lot more sense than the latter
 
@Jez Tell that to the Swiss. Or the Belgians.
 
Jez
@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 um, no they don't
 
@Jez The former union provides way less benefit than the latter.
@Jez Sure they do. I was in Austria, pretty much everyone I spoke to understood English.
 
Jez
@terdon the Belgians happen to have lucked out by being the centre of the EU for some reason. the Swiss, well, i'd say they don't have much leverage.
 
2:40 PM
@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 I wasn't talking about city-level politics. I was talking about full independence for a neighbourhood, à la Vatican City.
 
Okay, I've got it then. England should petition to join Canada. We'd let you guys in, as the 11th province.
 
Jez
@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 try France. Or any non-city in Spain, Portugal, Italy, Romania, Poland....
 
@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 You cannot join two empires at the same time.
 
Jez
@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 see, that fails my "geography" criterion or i'd probably agree with you. if we were right next to Ontario I wouldn't mind joining Canada
 
If you are already part of America, you cannot join Canada.
Besides, shouldn't Canada, the smaller country, join Britain?
 
2:42 PM
@Cerberus Well, my former argument still stands: when one region secedes, it is therefore bound to set up all the treaties, etc, that it needs to function. And obviously, that is impossible in the general case for neighbourhood-size regions trying to exist as nations. Vatican City isn't a real country.
 
@Jez And Hong Kong does not fail that criterion?
 
Jez
@Cerberus canada has half our population and 10000000 times our landmass. it's on the way to being bigger so i'd be happy for britain to join canada. i may be in a minority there ;-)
 
@Jez You'd have to get rid of your nukes though. We're strictly non-nuke here.
 
@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 The problem with Vatican City is that it profits immensely from the surrounding country without giving nearly as much back in return.
 
Jez
@terdon i use several criteria. geography, language, culture, religion, politics.
they all have to be taken in the round
 
2:43 PM
@Jez Not half, 83%.
 
Jez
if all of them are similar, then merging into one country makes sense
 
@Cerberus It probably costs essentially nothing to Italy and brings in lots of tourism.
 
Jez
@Cerberus right
 
@Jez And HK fails every single one of them. Except perhaps language.
 
Jez
@terdon with China????
 
2:44 PM
@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 The cost to Italy is low on the Italian budget, but it would be high on the Papal budget.
 
If it were really a true, independent country then it'd need border guards, customs agents, tax collectors, etc, etc. Instead it's a relic that's afforded an honorary status as a foreign nation.
 
And what if all inner cities of Italy became independent and got the same beneficial relationship as the Vatican?
 
@Cerberus ? The Catholic church is pretty rich
 
Jez
heh, The Vatican should absolutely be annexed by Italy. why Italy doesnt do it i dont know
maybe then certain Catholic criminals could be brought to justice
 
@Cerberus As I said. They would need tons of infrastructure that they don't have. Italy wouldn't be required to provide it.
 
Jez
2:45 PM
@terdon oh, fails. right, what's your point?
 
@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 That is true, but most of they money is fixed, and most of it goes to bishops or parishes, not to Rome.
 
@Jez I'm just saying that you're against returning HK to China and yet by your own arguments, it should be.
 
Jez
@terdon ah. well i'd say it only fails geographically
 
@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 They provide it now for the Vatican. So my point is that this would be too expensive for Italy if all cities did it. Not to mention inequitable.
 
Jez
which is something of an argument, but not compelling by itself.
especially if there is no-one else to return it to whose criteria match better
China's sure don't
 
2:47 PM
When I claim that secession is a human right, I don't mean that the rest of the world is required to pay for it. If Quebec secedes from Canada, I will sadly say goodbye to them, and then insist that our government negotiate appropriate trade deals and whatnot, because their choice of secession means they are giving up the bad AND the good of being in Canada.
 
Right.
 
The same should apply if just one city in Quebec tried to secede. Or one neighbourhood in Toronto decided to join Rochester NY.
 
Jez
wouldn't Canada be soooo much simpler if the Brits had just strong-armed Quebec into speaking English? :-)
 
You want borders? Find. here are borders. Expect to pay duties. You want trade agreements? Fine. Here are our terms. etc.
 
Jez
i mean the Quebec nuisance would've been settled a century ago
 
2:48 PM
@Jez No.
@Jez It would not have.
 
Jez
pretty much would
 
Obviously not. Look how long the Scottish nuisance has lasted.
 
Jez
their culture would over time merge with canadian culture. the language barrier seems to be the big thing that drives it apart
 
Sometimes strong-handing works, at other times it doesn't. It's very hard to predict.
 
You have no idea what you're talking about. The geography alone means there is a wide range of "Canadian culture"
 
Jez
2:49 PM
@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 actually, before Blair gave them a parliament and Cameron gave them a referendum, support for Scottish independence was very low. i'd say that nuisance has largely been created by the UK
 
It is possible.
 
Jez
@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 and yet nowhere near diverged enough that any of the rest of the provinces want secession
 
The people of Nova Scotia and New Brunswick are not the same as Ontarians who are not the same as the prairie folk who are not the same as British Columbians.
 
Nationalism can be stimulated just as it can sometimes be repressed.
 
Jez
and none of em want independence.
 
2:50 PM
@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 No people are ever the same.
 
Jez
come on. their cultures are still extremely similar
 
They are.
 
@Jez The only way the "quebec" issue could have been solved would have been to forcefully migrate the quebec population out of quebec, and replace it with a different population.
 
Jez
the lanuage and geographical barriers, i would say, are the biggest two.
 
It is foolish to think that nations can always be assimilated, just as it is foolish to think that they can never be assimilated.
 
Jez
2:52 PM
@Cerberus you've obviously never played Europa Universalis 3.
 
I have played it extensively.
 
Jez
i can assimilate any nation in about 50 years in that game
 
Computer games ≠ reality.
 
Jez
especially if i convert them to my religion
:-)
 
See, again, you advocate force ;)
 
2:52 PM
Have you played EU IV yet?
 
@Jez See, that is another barrier. Quebec has historically been Catholic, while the rest of Canada has not been.
 
Jez
@Cerberus nah.
 
Neither have I.
But I should like to play it sometime.
 
Jez
@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 sure, i'm not arguing there aren't barriers now. i quite like my little list, taken in the round. language, geography, culture, religion, politics. probably in that order.
the only one on that list where Scotland differs much from Britain is politics, and that should be the least important
 
@Jez So you would forcefully cause people to throw away their existing culture to prevent future desires for secession. That could work... the EU should do that to the UK and all its member states, to form one big strong homogenous nation.
 
Jez
2:55 PM
@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 im not advocating anything there, im describing when it makes sense and when it doesnt for a country to be united
well, when it makes sense for a region to be united with another region
oh, maybe currency ought to be in there too
 
@Jez So Gibraltar should be Spanish?
 
Isn't religion part of culture?
And isn't Scotlant Protestant?
 
Jez
@terdon well, let's look at the list. Gibraltar is very close to Britain on language, culture, religion, politics, and currency. it fails geography. i'd say it should be part of Britain.
it is not close to Spain on language, culture, religion, politics, or currency
 
@Jez Well, the Scots didn't always have the same religion and language as England. Wars and politics forced the current situation. And maybe there is still resentment.
 
Is that true, are the people of Gibraltar of British origin?
 
Jez
2:59 PM
@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 yeah, mainly whipped up by the SNP who have their own obsessive separation agenda. that resentment had died down by the 1960s
as i said, support for independence was nowhere
 

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