English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

Kit Z. Fox

6:03 PM

@JasperLoy No. Some friends.

Cerberus

@JasperLoy For the time being, it is true. For how long, we don't know.

Kit Z. Fox

@Cerb Would you mind if I spoke to you privately for a few minutes?

Cerberus

Why?

I don't think so.

Kit Z. Fox

@Cerberus I'm sorry, I don't know whether you mean yes, that's OK, or no, you'd rather not.

Cerberus

I think have let myself be worked up enough by your...escalating behaviour. I have asked for explanations but didn't get any. I think another conversation would only reëscalate things again.

Kit Z. Fox

6:09 PM

OK. I understand that you are still upset with me and I don't want to make that worse.

So I'll say it here then.

Cerberus

Since you dislike me and I dislike you, I think you should have some other moderator talk to me, if necessary.

Not you.

Not that I think they could bring Rob and Reg back.

Kit Z. Fox

Which is specifically that I have noticed and appreciate that even while you are ticked at me, you are still contributing constructively to chat. Thank you for that.

Cerberus

Blegh, don't pretend you are "thankful" to me. You hate me, and this is the insincerest thing ever. You're making things worse by trying to look like a goody-two-shoes.

Just don't talk to me.

Kit Z. Fox

I offered to tell you privately.

And you're the one saying that I don't like you and that I hate you. I have never said so.

Cerberus

That, too, would have been only so that could have told SE how "reasonable" you were.

Kit Z. Fox

6:13 PM

Really? Why would I worry about that?

user174558

Kit is very patient. I would not be so patient with you @cerberus.

Matt E. Эллен

I think it's fair to say @Kit, Cerb has asked you to stop talking to him. I don't think you'll get to the bottom of anything today.

Kit Z. Fox

@MattE.Эллен You're right. Apologies.

user174558

Yes, I think you should just let Cerb continue to sulk.

Kit Z. Fox

Be fair, @Jasper. Working through hurt feelings takes time.

user174558

6:15 PM

OK.

Kit Z. Fox

So. What's in the chat bucket today? I don't think we adequately covered mitt v. glove.

Matt E. Эллен

I could whine about Drupal. And other devs

Cerberus

@KitZ.Fox You go away for a year after having been in very long (separate) fights with Rob and with me. Then you return on the day that there is a huge flagging incident that left everybody steaming. On that very day, you disown Rob and me, for no reason that you would tell me. Then Rob and Reg leave. You have introduced just enough additional escalation to blow things up. Thanks for that. And then you pretend to be "nice" to me because you think that looks good to SE and other people.

Kit Z. Fox

Mmkay. Not particularly topical, but chattable.

Cerberus

Hah, there was Ron again.

Kit Z. Fox

6:18 PM

OK, that was also a pretty funny tweening.

Cerberus

If you hadn't disowned Rob, I know he wouldn't have left.

MετάEd

@MattE.Эллен Well so much for that theory. :-|

Cerberus

I don't know about Reg, but it certainly didn't help.

Matt E. Эллен

@MετάEd aye

Anonymous

@Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ. Fried noodles.

Mitch

6:20 PM

@KitZ.Fox Go Mitts. Gloves can go to hell!

Cerberus

Gloves nor mittens would work here.

Kit Z. Fox

@Mitch It's mitts, not Mitch.

Matt E. Эллен

I've never heard of Glove Romney be made vice president

Cerberus

You're born with fire resistance or you aren't—don't let RPGs tell you otherwise.

Mitch

@KitZ.Fox Oh. Nevermind then.

Matt E. Эллен

6:22 PM

or is it foreign minister

whatever that guy is

Anonymous

@Cerberus Do you prefer em dashes to en dashes?

Kit Z. Fox

@MattE.Эллен snickers

Mitch

@MattE.Эллен a foreign muenster. very runny

Kit Z. Fox

Is that what a foreign minister is?

Cerberus

@snailboat In English, yes. In Dutch, no. In other languages...I don't know. You?

Anonymous

6:23 PM

I don't know. I have the book tchrist recommended, The Elements of Typographical Style by Robert Bringhurst, and the author seems to prefer en dashes.

Mitch

@Cerberus wow. that explains a lot. I'm no racist but...

Cerberus

...but I'm black?

Anonymous

I was considering switching to team en dash :-)

Matt E. Эллен

@KitZ.Fox I got confused between Romney and Kerry. they both have long grey faces

terdon

@snailboat Really? In English?

Anonymous

6:24 PM

@terdon Yes

Cerberus

@snailboat Ah, that one. I think m's are slightly more old fashioned now?

terdon

For parentheticals?

Anonymous

in Language Overflow, 28 mins ago, by snailboat

> The em dash is the nineteenth-century standard, still prescribed in many editorial style books, but the em dash is too long for use with the best text faces. Like the oversized space between sentences, it belongs to the padded and corseted aesthetic of Victorian typography.

Kit Z. Fox

@MattE.Эллен I agree.

Mitch

ha ha. no. It's a fill it in yourself and be insulted.

terdon

6:24 PM

@snailboat Sounds like the author hasn't heard of Unicode.

Anonymous

We were just talking about dashes over in the ELL chat rooms, and I saw an em dash so I got curious and asked :-)

terdon

—

Matt E. Эллен

@Mitch "Orcs shouldn't be allowed in the shire." How dare you!

Anonymous

@terdon What do you mean?

Kit Z. Fox

I thought they were used for different purposes?

Anonymous

6:25 PM

@KitZ.Fox I'm talking specifically about using em or en dashes to set off phrases – like this – and not any of the other uses.

Mitch

@MattE.Эллен Exactly. You read my mind. You know how orcs are.

terdon

@snailboat I mean that since there's a Unicode glyph for the em dash, I don't think the author's point about "best text faces" is relevant.

@snailboat Huh, you would have spaces around them?

Kit Z. Fox

@snailboat I thought en-dashes were not to be used for that purpose.

Anonymous

@terdon I think it's an aesthetic judgment.

user116848

@snailboat How can we make an em dash in chat?

Cerberus

6:26 PM

@terdon I very much doubt whether Tom's favourite author should have never heard of Unicode...

Matt E. Эллен

@Mitch Mind readers?

Mitch

I don't use em or en dashes. If I want to separate I use </hr>

Anonymous

@terdon Spaces around en dashes, no spaces around em dashes.

terdon

@snailboat Yes, but the fonts he considers "best" probably do support — now.

user174558

I just use - and -- and ---

terdon

6:26 PM

@snailboat Ah, yes, those were ns, true.

Cerberus

@terdon The same dashes can be used for anything but compound adjectives.

Can't they?

Mitch

@MattE.Эллен and that's ...well you know already.

Matt E. Эллен

I thought so

Cerberus

@snailboat I believe spaces are a bit more modern too.

terdon

@Cerberus As far as I know, yes. Personally, I use em dashes for parentheticals—like this—and en dashes for the rest.

Cerberus

6:27 PM

Hmm.

Mitch

Nobody thinks of the poor hyphen

user174558

en dashes are used for page ranges

Matt E. Эллен

hy-
phens

user174558

em dashes are used to break a sentence

Kit Z. Fox

@Mitch That's completely inappropriate!

Anonymous

6:28 PM

@KitZ.Fox Bringhurst says: "5.2.1. Use spaced en dashes - rather than close-set em dashes or spaced hyphens - to set off phrases."

user174558

hyphens are used for compounds

Cerberus

@terdon Well, I don't!

Anonymous

I think your choice of dash is something of a matter of personal style.

Cerberus

Just indicating what others do.

Mitch

I use parentheses for parentheticals, calling a spade a spade, and an adze a well what is that word for the weird sideways shovel.

Anonymous

6:28 PM

Is there a three-quarter em dash in Unicode?

terdon

Em dashes are more dashing.

Cerberus

You mean you use brackets for parenthesis.

Kit Z. Fox

@snailboat Interesting.

Mitch

@KitZ.Fox So embarrassed!

user174558

In LaTeX, the three really are typed as - and -- and --- and they get magically transformed.

MετάEd

6:29 PM

Dash

A dash is a punctuation mark that is similar to a hyphen or minus sign, but differs from both of these symbols primarily in length and function. The most common versions of the dash are the en dash (–) and the em dash (—), named for the length of a typeface's lower-case n and upper-case M respectively. Usage varies both within English and in other languages, but the usual convention in printed English text is: Either version may be used to denote a break in a sentence or to set off parenthetical statements – ideally with intradocument consistency. Style and usage guides vary, but often in this...

Cerberus

@snailboat It is. So I didn't know Bringhust also was a style guide.

Mitch

I like negative -em-dashes. So you can do overstrikes like in APL.

Kit Z. Fox

@Mitch I remember correcting Jeff Atwood's hyphen to a dash, as a show of support for Reg.

Mitch

@KitZ.Fox Oh...that's why Jeff rage quitted the stackoverflow system.

user174558

I tried to master punctuation and spent a whole week studying the comma.

Mitch

6:30 PM

Thanks Kit.

Kit Z. Fox

And do you remember how we re-opened the question he closed, like a year after the whole thing?

user174558

Then I gave up when I realised other guides say otherwise.

Matt E. Эллен

I quit, I have quot, I quat

Kit Z. Fox

@Mitch Yeah. I love receiving responsibility for other people's actions.

MετάEd

@snailboat cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/dashes.html#unidash

user174558

6:31 PM

So today, I punctuate whatever way I like.

Anonymous

@JasperLoy I think a lot of comma use comes down to personal style, too. Two different writers might write the same paragraph with very different comma placement.

Kit Z. Fox

@MετάEd I saw that said "unidash" and I thought it was like "one dash to fit them all!"

Mitch

augh! Thanksgiving machinations begin in ... I should left 5 minutes ago... later dudes and dudettes. I leave you with this important question: Bucket or Pail?

user174558

@snailboat In particular, I read Larry Trask's Guide to Punctuation and realised it contains such unconventional stuff that it should be avoided.

Kit Z. Fox

@Mitch Oh. Good one.

MετάEd

6:32 PM

@KitZ.Fox I saw "unidash" which took me to "unibrow" and very quickly to "loewenbrau" which should give you some idea of what kind of a day it's been.

@snailboat fileformat.info/info/unicode/category/Pd/list.htm

user174558

@snailboat I have searched the internet for a really comprehensive guide on the comma but to no avail, and I am still searching for the book that does so. I know CGEL has its last chapter devoted to punctuation though. Maybe we should treat that as the bible.

Kit Z. Fox

@MετάEd Hell, I think it's quitting time. I can make it to Texas in — checks watch — well, eventually.

Cerberus

@snailboat I agree.

Consider for example this sentence:

Anonymous

@JasperLoy The chapter in CGEL isn't a comprehensive description of how punctuation is used, though, it's just an overview. It's only one chapter, and Nunberg's word is not law.

user174558

You look so hyphening today

Cerberus

6:34 PM

> In the year 499, she moved to Alexandria.

Anonymous

Nunberg is just attempting to describe in general terms how people use commas, where some people tend to use them and others do not, and so on.

Cerberus

To me, that comma is 100% optional.

MετάEd

@KitZ.Fox If I place the order to Amazon now, the drones should arrive with the beer at about the same time.

user174558

@snailboat Looks like there is no need to learn grammar, just use what you like LMAO

Kit Z. Fox

@MετάEd I like the way you think.

See, I'd just rewrite that as "She moved to Alexandria in the year 499."

I don't like shifting clauses around like that, except when I do. Well, I write that way all the time.

user174558

6:36 PM

I would write 'She moved to Alexandria in 499.'

Kit Z. Fox

Come to think of it, I especially do it for writing bug reports.

@JasperLoy I think "the year" is important for clarity because we are used to four-digit years.

Cerberus

There can be reasons in the context to want the year at the beginning, for example if there is a contrast to be made.

Or an enumeration.

user174558

499 sounds like something you see at the supermarket.

MετάEd

@JasperLoy I'll take "famous women for $100".

Cerberus

What matters is whether the comma is good, bad, or neutral. As @snailboat said, I think it is a matter of choice.

Matt E. Эллен

6:38 PM

@MετάEd if it only cost $100 to get famous, why aren't more people doing it?

user174558

@Cerberus One can go to the extreme then and say everything we write is choice, right?

Matt E. Эллен

I don't choose to write this!

Anonymous

Well, most, people, would, agree, that, using, commas, like, this, is, rather, odd,,,

user174558

I likes icecream is my choice, LOL.

Matt E. Эллен

commas are often like potholes for readers

user174558

6:40 PM

A lot of people know about CGEL. Do you know there is a baby version of it by the same authors?

Anonymous

@JasperLoy A Student's Introduction to English Grammar

user174558

Ding!

Anonymous

It doesn't mention punctuation, though.

user174558

Right.

Anonymous

There are student versions of Quirk et al 1985 and Biber et al 1999 too.

user174558

6:41 PM

Anyone here got Bas Aarts's Modern English Grammar?

Anonymous

Yes.

Anonymous

I have all the grammar books.

Anonymous

(Not really. There are too many!)

user174558

You should be a grammarian, lol.

user174558

So @snailboat, I would like to ask, since you have them all, which you recommend.

Anonymous

6:42 PM

@JasperLoy For what purpose?

user174558

@snailboat I want something comprehensive to help you write really correctly, but not as encyclopaedic as CGEL.

user116848

Practical English Usage is also good I hear.

user174558

@Arrowfar By Michael Swan?

Anonymous

Practical English Usage is a great pedagogical grammar.

user116848

@JasperLoy yes.

Cerberus

6:43 PM

@JasperLoy Yes, but I meant in the narrow sense: in the opinion of good writers and discerning readers.

user174558

Maybe I should have majored in English. It's actually pretty interesting.

Anonymous

Swan's book is written for non-native speakers who want a quick reference without too much jargon or theory, but one that is still relatively accurate. He used the larger reference grammars (H&P 2002, Quirk et al 1985, etc.) while he was working on his book, and it might not be perfect, but it's pretty good.

Anonymous

(No book on grammar is ever going to be perfect.)

user174558

@snailboat Except Snailboat, 2016.

Anonymous

There's also an app version :-)

user174558

6:47 PM

Is linguistics considered a science? Hmm.

user174558

I think mathematics should be considered an art.

Anonymous

@JasperLoy It's kinda sciencey. Linguistics as a discipline is an attempt to approach language scientifically. But there's probably a lot of stuff under the linguistics umbrella which isn't really that scientific by any measure.

user174558

@snailboat Aha, like psychology. Lots of things they say are not scientific but just their human opinion.

Anonymous

There's a lot of crossover between psychology and linguistics. I do believe that a lot of psychology is sound science, and a lot isn't . . .

Anonymous

The term for that crossover is psycholinguistics.

user174558

6:51 PM

Math is under science in many universities simply because of its use in science I guess. There are no experiments to be done.

Cerberus

@snailboat I agree.

user174558

@Cerberus Yesterday, I finally understood what poof means upon deep contemplation.

Cerberus

The Holy Spirit?

user174558

It means disappearing in a puff of smoke. From puff to poof. Brilliant.

user174558

poof

user116848

6:56 PM

Is it just me or finding sentences in chat transcript by typing in the contracted forms “I don’t”, "I’m” etc. with a sentence is impossible? It only shows the main site questions.

Kit Z. Fox

Could be the apostrophe.

user116848

Yes it seems that way.

terdon

@Arrowfar They're actually questions that were linked to in here, but it's strange that it doesn't find other things.

Cerberus

@JasperLoy Well, the words puff and poof are no doubt related, but poof is a word unto itself, used onomatopoeically to indicate such a disappearance.

Or wasn't that what you meant.

user116848

@terdon Yeah exactly.

Kit Z. Fox

6:59 PM

@terdon Probably the one-boxing escapes them somehow.

terdon

@KitZ.Fox Perhaps they're treated as hanging quotes otherwise.

Kit Z. Fox

Hmm, yes, that might be it.

I bet @tchrist would know.

Mitch

Commas are for losers and pandas eats shoots and leaves

The Mayans didn't use it. Look where it got them.

@JasperLoy math is unscientific because it is not experimental, not testable.

user116848

@Mitch Hi Mitchy. I was waiting for you to crack a joke.

user116848

;)

Mitch

7:05 PM

Oh a joke? Can you give me a topic?

user116848

No, not now. It is all good now.

user116848

:)

Mitch

A rabbi an imam and a priest walk into a bar and the bartender says why no punctuation

2

Cerberus

@Mitch Well, where did it get them?

Let's ask one.

Oh, wait...

Mitch

They can't drink so it didn't get them anything

All the Mayans are still there

Cerberus

7:08 PM

Commas drink?

MετάEd

Jeopardy!

Jeopardy! is an American television game show created by Merv Griffin. The show features a quiz competition in which contestants are presented with general knowledge clues in the form of answers, and must phrase their responses in the form of questions. The original daytime version debuted on NBC on March 30, 1964, and aired until January 3, 1975. A weekly nighttime syndicated edition aired from September 1974 to September 1975, and a revival, The All-New Jeopardy!, ran on NBC from October 1978 to March 1979. A daily syndicated version premiered on September 10, 1984, and is still airing, making...

Mitch

They're living in Guatemala or mexico

Cerberus

I thought you said Guantanamo.

With decorative spaces and varied spelling.

Mitch

Close but not that close

user116848

@Cerberus I thought the same thing heh.

Mitch

7:09 PM

'Commas drink?'?

Cerberus

Just paraphrasing.

Are there any people who would write paraphraze?

Like analyze.

msh210

@Cerberus Yes.

terdon

Seriously?

Mitch

No. No one in their right mind

Anonymous

@Cerberus You mean people who are otherwise considered to be good at spelling?

MετάEd

7:11 PM

, , , 🐉

msh210

@terdon Absolutely. Given any fairly reasonable misspelling, you can be almost 100% sure that there's someone who will use it.

Kit Z. Fox

@MετάEd comma comma comma box

terdon

Ah, sure, just as long as we agree that it is a misspelling.

MετάEd

@KitZ.Fox If you have the right font it's comma comma comma chameleon

Cerberus

@snailboat Yes.

msh210

7:12 PM

@terdon I hope you don't think I meant I would use it.

terdon

comma comma comma cool little dragon.

Cerberus

@msh210 Interesting. Like whom?

Anonymous

@Cerberus In that case, I don't think so.

Kit Z. Fox

@terdon Aww. Stupid missing fonts.

Cerberus

So why analyze but not paraphraze?

terdon

7:13 PM

@msh210 Dunno, you look like that type :P

msh210

@Cerberus No one that I know of, now that you said you mean people otherwise considered to be good at spelling.

Cerberus

Such is also my impression.

terdon

@Cerberus You're looking for sense in English spelling.

Tsk.

Cerberus

One can always try.

> Some words ending in -ize have been widely disapproved in recent years, particularly finalize (first attested in the early 1920s) and prioritize (around 1970). Such words are most often criticized when they become, as did these two, vogue terms, suddenly heard and seen everywhere, especially in the context of advertising, commerce, education, or government—forces claimed by some to have a corrupting influence upon the language.

Does anyone here use finalize or prioritize?

msh210

"Analyse is better than analyze, but merely as being the one of the two equally indefensible forms that has won. The correct but now impossible form would be analysize (or analysise), with analysist for existing analyst." -- etymonline, quoting Fowler

@Cerberus Those are standard, here in Leftpondia. So, yes, I use them.

Mitch

7:14 PM

Corrupting influence

terdon

@Cerberus I might, yes. I mix both though, sadly.

Anonymous

@Cerberus Sure I do, just like most Americans.

Mitch

On our youth

terdon

Raised by an American but went to University in the UK. Very confusing.

Cerberus

@msh210 Hmm I respect Fowler, but I'm not sure I agree. Does he say anything else?

Kit Z. Fox

7:15 PM

Solutionize and ... there was another ridiculous one at the retreat...

msh210

@Cerberus Not as quoted there.

user116848

@Cerberus I use z too.

Kit Z. Fox

Developmentalize or something.

MετάEd

There's a reason that the root word of analyze is anal.

Cerberus

@Mitch Well, do have such an influence, don't they? Especially advertising, commerce, and bureaucracy.

Anonymous

7:16 PM

The OED uses -ize too.

terdon

@Cerberus Makes sense. The parent word is analysis after all. Or ανάλυσις if you are so inclined.

Cerberus

@snailboat Why do you say Americans?

Are they less common in Britain?

Kit Z. Fox

What's wrong with finalize and prioritize? Should it be "make final" and "make a priority"?

msh210

2 mins ago, by msh210

@Cerberus Those are standard, here in Leftpondia. So, yes, I use them.

Cerberus

Regardless of spelling.

@msh210 OK.

Anonymous

7:16 PM

@Cerberus Because Americans tend to use -ize. In many places outside the US -ise is more common.

Anonymous

Most people, but not all, in the UK use -ise.

MετάEd

@KitZ.Fox Or "put in order of priority".

Cerberus

@snailboat I know Oxford mostly uses -ize, but certainly not in analyze.

MετάEd

I personally prioritize. Just not very often. I have more important things to do.

terdon

I'm sure you;ll find Americans who spell DAESH IZIS.

Cerberus

7:17 PM

@msh210 I don't know what you mean by "standard"...

msh210

@Cerberus Does anyone use -i- in analyze?

Cerberus

@snailboat No, no, this is not about spelling at all! See the quotation.

Anonymous

@Cerberus Oh, my mistake. They only use -ize, not -yze.

msh210

@Cerberus The usual spelling by people who spell right.

Cerberus

@msh210 I don't think so.

user116848

7:18 PM

So if we don't have consistency in using -ise or -ize is it considered a bad writing? I use them both sometimes without thinking much.

Anonymous

We aren't talking about spelling? What quotation? I missed it, I'm afraid.

Cerberus

4 mins ago, by Cerberus

> Some words ending in -ize have been widely disapproved in recent years, particularly finalize (first attested in the early 1920s) and prioritize (around 1970). Such words are most often criticized when they become, as did these two, vogue terms, suddenly heard and seen everywhere, especially in the context of advertising, commerce, education, or government—forces claimed by some to have a corrupting influence upon the language.

msh210

@Cerberus I had read that and thought it referred to -ize vs. -ise.

terdon

@Arrowfar Ideally, you should pick a style—AmE or BrE—and stick to it, yes.

Cerberus

@msh210 I wasn't talking about spelling any more, as per the quotation. Perhaps I should have been clearer.

msh210

7:19 PM

@msh210 Shoulda known better from its use of "heard".

user116848

@terdon I see.

Anonymous

@Cerberus Oh, it's so interesting how people pick what sorts of innovations to rebel against!

Anonymous

Some language change people are fine with, and others people grumble about. Why in this case, I wonder?

Cerberus

I hardly think anyone would say the z is due to a "corrupting influence"!

Anonymous

Finalize and prioritize are fully integrated into the language in 2015, anyway.

msh210

7:20 PM

@Cerberus In that case, ignore everything I said above about Leftpondia.

Cerberus

@snailboat Well, there are deeper rules about style that they may conform or clash with.

@msh210 Haha OK. It seemed strange.

Although I know how leftist America is.

Anonymous

languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=1241

Anonymous

I'm sorry I misunderstood where the conversation was going earlier and mixed up yze and ize.

Cerberus

I guess my quotation was easy to misinterpret without reading the whole article.

Anonymous

I remembered this post when I read your quote.

Anonymous

7:22 PM

> [A] strong initial revulsion to -ize coinages based on common nouns has apparently been in effect for nearly half a millennium. With respect to each particular coinage, the reaction eventually fades if the word sticks around.

Anonymous

> Judging by hospitalize (first spotted in 1901) and traumatize (first spotted in 1903), which Edwin Newman railed against in 1976 but which seem to be generally accepted today, it can take up to a century for -ize coinages in the general vocabulary to make it out of quarantine.

msh210

@snailboat Nice writing. Two medical terms followed by a medical metaphor.

terdon

Growing up, before my time in the UK corrupted me, I remember feeling that -ize was always right and that -ise was just weird. We pronounce it -ize after all. Sadly, that age of innocence is lost and they both look OK to me now.

Anonymous

@msh210 Maybe it was automatic due to semantic priming :-)

msh210

@snailboat Maybe so. Nice anyway.

Cerberus

7:25 PM

@snailboat Nice.

> Our English tongue, of all languages, most swarmeth with the single money of monasillables, which are the onely scandal of it.

Kit Z. Fox

single money?

moany?

terdon

@Cerberus Source?

Cerberus

It is true that it doth swarm with those, but I don't think it a scandal.

Snaily's link.

msh210

@KitZ.Fox Beats me. A Google Books search for "the single money of" -monosillables -monosyllables -monasillables turns up nothing but this quotation and a passagein which it means "single" (=only) + "money".

Cerberus

> Besides, they carrie farre more state with them then any other, and are not halfe so harsh in their desinence as the old hobling English verbes ending in r: they express more than any other verbes whatsoever, and that substantives would be quite barraine of verbs, but for that ending.

@msh210 Single money as in loose coins, small coins.

Kit Z. Fox

7:29 PM

Ohhh.

Cerberus

He is talking about monosyllables, after all.

In defence of his own polysyllabic words.

I have to say I disagree with this author.

msh210

@Cerberus I don't see that on the first coupla pages of results of a Google Books search for single money. Can you recommend a collocate to help me find it on that site?

Cerberus

Because he is doing it for the wrong reasons—which are, alas, often the same reason people do the same thing today.

"State".

Anonymous

@msh210 It's in the OED, marked as obsolete, with reference to single.

msh210

@snailboat Hm, thanks.

Cerberus

7:31 PM

@msh210 Recommend a collocate?

msh210

@Cerberus A word to add to the phrase, to help me weed out false positives in the results.

Cerberus

I don't know, how about "idiom"?

I just read it as fit the context.

Oh, you mean in Books?

I would expect you to find this usage by simply searching for "single money" in Books?

@msh210 Have Books search in the 19th century.

Then you'll find some examples.

Or earlier.

Kit Z. Fox

Single money doesn't mean loose change to me. I mean, now it does, but I read 'single' like it meant 'singular'.

It's an interesting turn of phrase.

msh210

@Cerberus Yeah. Oh, it's in Jonson's The Alchemist.

Cerberus

Right.

It seems fairly clear to me in context...

Although it is not an expression I would expect to find in modern prose.

msh210

7:39 PM

@Cerberus I don't recommend that you use it and assume people will know what you mean. :-)

Cerberus

Then I won't.

> This seems to be a fairly transparent case of people associating pieces of language with social classes or behaviors they hold in contempt, and holding the pieces of language in contempt by extension.
This is especially the case when -ize words are buzzwords for certain circles, like accessorize for the fashion-oriented and incentivize for the business/management-oriented. I suspect that people who recoil in horror at those words also sneer at these groups of people (or at least their stereotypes), but don't sneer at scientists or their -ize words. The disgust fades once the words break o…

@snailboat This ^ is one reason why some linguistic innovations are more easily accepted than others (besides the deeper principles of style mentioned earlier).

Anonymous

I hear an awful lot of expressions of disgust for language associated with corporations.

Anonymous

At the very least, language which is perceived to be associated with corporate culture.

Cerberus

Absolutely!

Hence my first quotation.

25 mins ago, by Cerberus

4 mins ago, by Cerberus

> Some words ending in -ize have been widely disapproved in recent years, particularly finalize (first attested in the early 1920s) and prioritize (around 1970). Such words are most often criticized when they become, as did these two, vogue terms, suddenly heard and seen everywhere, especially in the context of advertising, commerce, education, or government—forces claimed by some to have a corrupting influence upon the language.

Sorry to double-quote myself hehe.

Anonymous

Ah, thanks for quoting that again :-)

Cerberus

7:44 PM

bows twice

Does this disgust not affect you at all?

Anonymous

I'm fairly certain there are words and phrases I don't like the sound of, although it's difficult for me to produce a list off the top of my head.

Cerberus

In Orwell's world, for example, I would most certainly spit at innovations like double plus good (now, of course, they are fictional and used ironically, which makes them perfectly acceptable).

@snailboat Right, and some of those for social reasons, because you associate them with bad or stupid or x people?

Anonymous

Oh, um, quite possibly, but it's difficult for me to analyze my reactions without first noting what those are, and I don't have enough self-awareness to do that right now.

Cerberus

Heh.

I'm usually well aware of why I think I dislike this word or that.

Anonymous

I can think of a few things off the top of my head I dislike, but I don't want to repeat them here.

Cerberus

7:46 PM

Hehe.

Curses?

Anonymous

Not exactly. Well, terms like butt hurt.

Cerberus

Ugh.

Yeah, I would never say that.

I generally dislike obscenity of any kind, even in dead metaphors.

Of course I am inconsistent...

Anonymous

I think it's important to be able to talk about taboo vocabulary, but I don't really like doing it.

Cerberus

Haha.

A sense of embarrassment?

Anonymous

I think sometimes the sense of taboo transcends the use–mention distinction.

Anonymous

7:49 PM

In theory, mentioning taboo vocabulary should be fine. You're not using it.

Cerberus

Sometimes, yes.

Anonymous

But it can still feel like transgressing.

user116848

So what's a good alternative of butt hurt?

Cerberus

Our opinions probably differ on when this is the case.

Anonymous

@Cerberus I think that's probably true of lots of pairs of people :-)

Cerberus

7:50 PM

For example, I think anyone would object to your saying at a funeral how annoying it is when people are disrespectful about the dead, when you're giving as an example "hey, look, a corpse".

Even as a joke or a reference, it is not appropriate in context, I would say, at least not when talking to the dead person's child or something.

(A funeral is the most sensitive context imaginable.)

(Can a context be sensitive?)

user116848

Good night all.

Cerberus

8:35 PM

i.imgur.com/qYxcLmD.gifv

6

MετάEd

9:41 PM

MετάEd

10:01 PM

single money -- if you have no OED, see p. 83 of the New English Dictionary volume Si-St. The link is at this answer in English Language & Usage Meta: meta.english.stackexchange.com/a/2574/14073

user174558

10:23 PM

@MετάEd Meta Ed is here to educate us on Meta.

MετάEd

@JasperLoy I never met a metallic meta I didn't metalike.

Cerberus

@MετάEd Umm okay.

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