English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

What if you sockpuppetted yourself but with all your other identity the same. So it would look externally like you're the same person, and you are, but you'd be coming at it through different IP addresses.

Cerberus

Use the TOR browser in a virtual machine.

Mitch

That would be a lot of work for really no reason at all.

what's a 'TOR' browser

user116848

@KitZ.Fox So can you figure out if someone is using a VPN or TOR?

Cerberus

The Onion Router.

The most robust anonymity tool.

Mitch

@Cerberus THat is a terrible mixed metaphor. weapons vs grubby fingers

Cerberus

12:25 AM

You can find out whether someone is using TOR or even a VPN, but it won't tell you who he is.

user116848

I see.

Cerberus

@Mitch One metaphor is unavoidable.

Mitch

@Cerberus just be boring

Cerberus

The other...do you have a suggestion?

Mitch

@Cerberus ha ha. no.

Cerberus

12:26 AM

The whole toolbox?

A toolbox of techniques? Meh.

Mitch

I can't write myself, but I can point out the most negligeable of discrepancies.

Cerberus

Same here!

Mitch

OK next question, what is 'The Onion Router'

Cerberus

Array is a metaphor as well, if a deadish one.

Mitch

Does that have something to do with 'The Onion'?

Cerberus

12:28 AM

Haha nope.

Mitch

it must be really dead. what is the literal meaning of array?

Cerberus

It is basically going through several VPNs in succession.

Mitch

Like those teenagers in Kazakhstan?

Cerberus

I don't know?

TOR is indirectly sponsored by the American government.

To me, an array is something spatial primarily...

But, apparently, that is etymologically unwarranted.

user116848

So the time chat gets in full swing here is the middle of the night for me. Mostly, not always.

Cerberus

12:31 AM

Think of The Onion Router this way: your real traffic is inside the onion, and the layers of the onion are the "VPNs" that anonymize it.

@Arrowfar That time varies, but, yeah, kind of.

Mitch

@Arrowfar Holy crap. @KitZ.Fox hasn't commented on this at all. That means... looks over shoulder ... looks under desk ... rifles through caning of chair ... unscrews light bulbs ... falls exhausted on floor

Cerberus

But a substantial number of regular users have been terrorized by recent events.

user116848

@Cerberus So um, you don't sleep at night? It must be late at night there.

Cerberus

Like the invasion of flaggers from a disbanded chat room (the Scifi room), and by the actions of Kit z. Fox.

Mitch

@Cerberus Ohhhh... I get the metaphor now.

user116848

12:32 AM

@Mitch Hahaha.

user116848

Well I have only one account. This one :-)

Cerberus

@Arrowfar I usually go to bed late.

user116848

I change my avatars all the time though.

Mitch

@Cerberus but that's totally unrelated to any sockpuppetry

user174558

@Cerberus She did what had to be done, and she did similar things in other rooms.

user116848

12:33 AM

@Cerberus Yeah me too, sometimes.

Cerberus

Normally, Reg and Rob would have been here at various times throughout the day.

@Mitch Arrowfar commented on how quiet the room has become.

Mitch

@Cerberus oh

Cerberus

Two of our most prolific, our oldest users have been terrorised too much.

And Kit Z. Fox is partly responsible.

user174558

Terrorised? Too dramatic.

Mitch

Um

user174558

12:35 AM

@Cerberus Nope, I don't think so.

Mitch

no button pushing in chat

Kit Z. Fox

You're not seriously accusing me of terrorism?

Cerberus

One actually told me so.

Mitch

Where's the 'Stop it!' button?

Cerberus

But there is nothing I can do about it now.

Mitch

12:36 AM

The emergency brake?

Cerberus

But they won't be forgotten.

Mitch

I mean the emergency break.

user174558

I think you are being too petty @Cerberus.

Mitch

The hoi polloi

Kit Z. Fox

You can always contact team@stackexchange.com and let them know how you feel.

Cerberus

12:36 AM

So, yeah, the room is quiet now.

Mitch

Nobody comes here anymore, it's too crowded.

Cerberus

And the site too, with Reg gone.

user174558

I also dislike the overswearing in this chat.

Kit Z. Fox

It's hardly quiet. Most of the other rooms that had crackdowns have been nearly abandoned for months.

Cerberus

He always did by far the most to maintain the site.

user174558

12:37 AM

It's not a bad idea that some users are gone.

Cerberus

So now Arrowfar knows the reason.

Kit Z. Fox

@Cerberus I'm not sure what measure you are using there.

Mitch

I think the data will show that chat visitation at ELU has been dwindling for quite a while. Even Reg and Rob, as the most prolific chatters, only showed UTC 1200-1700 for the most part.

@Cerberus DOn't answer that.

Hey, how about those Welsh speakers in Argentina?

Kit Z. Fox

Let's find something more topical to chat about.

Mitch

I just uptweeened you

user174558

12:40 AM

@KitZ.Fox He is using Lebesgue measure, lol.

Mitch

you can use that word if you want

@JasperLoy lol

Kit Z. Fox

@Mitch No, I was responding to your comment.

Mitch

@KitZ.Fox oh.

Cerberus

@Mitch It has always gone up and down, but the regulars were all here regularly. Except Kit, that is.

Kit Z. Fox

How about: which English dialects are spoken in Argentina?

Mitch

12:42 AM

@KitZ.Fox none.

user174558

@Cerberus I think you still hate her. Kit this and Kit that.

Kit Z. Fox

@Mitch There are no English populations in Argentina?

Mitch

Or rather whichever ones spoken be visitors. I bet there's no community of english speakers there.

just expats.

Kit Z. Fox

What about percentages of English-speaking tourists?

Mitch

no communes, or small towns that are all ENglish.

Germans maybe

Guarani maybe

Cerberus

12:43 AM

@JasperLoy I know her too well to hate her.

Kit Z. Fox

@Mitch Ah, so. That's a small community, which means it could develop its own vocabulary, right?

Mitch

@KitZ.Fox They don't count.

user174558

I have a feeling that Rathony lives in the same place as me, lol.

Mitch

@KitZ.Fox expats aren't permanent residents with their children staying and speaking their mother tongue.

(by my own definition of expat)

Kit Z. Fox

Oh really?

What happens to expats then?

Mitch

12:44 AM

@JasperLoy physically but not metaphorically.

@KitZ.Fox they die. Their offspring become children of the world, go back to the motherland.

they're not colonizers

Kit Z. Fox

That's a rather interesting plotline.

Mitch

Give me a credit. "based on a vague suggestion by Mitch"

user174558

I have not been to India. What does Inglish sound like?

Kit Z. Fox

So I wonder how many English speaking expats live in Argentina, and where they live there, if they gravitate toward a particular area.

Anonymous

There's a chapter called Anglo-Argentinian English in The Lesser-Known Varieties of English (2010)

3

Kit Z. Fox

12:46 AM

Are you pulling my leg?

Anonymous

cambridge.org/us/academic/subjects/languages-linguistics/…

user116848

Hi @snailboat How are you?

Mitch

Right. Is there a population of English people still living in India? Whose forbears lived in India?

user174558

@snailboat I suppose they also have a chapter on Singlish.

Kit Z. Fox

Ha! @Mitch in your face.

Mitch

12:47 AM

@snailboat wow. That is lesser known

@KitZ.Fox Well... splutters

Kit Z. Fox

The best part is that there is a SEQUEL!

user174558

Singlish is very interesting, but I don't know how to describe it, lol.

Mitch

well... still thinking of a comeback

Kit Z. Fox

@Mitch I'll wait. Maybe you should go out the door and down the stairs, then come back again.

Mitch

splutters some more

So how bout them Cubs?

user174558

12:49 AM

Oh, Prometheus is a prequel to Alien, and Prometheus 2 will be out in 2017!

Mitch

@JasperLoy Yes, that's what we were trying to tell you.

Kit Z. Fox

@Mitch Packers v. Vikings tonight.

user174558

@Mitch Well, you did not mention there is a sequel to Prometheus.

user174558

I am glad Kit is back in this chat.

user174558

It feels much better now.

Kit Z. Fox

12:51 AM

Well, anyone who misses the old chat can check out Rob's room.

Mitch

@KitZ.Fox pfft.

user174558

LOL. Overflow.

Kit Z. Fox

@Mitch I don't follow the Cubs. Not sure why anyone would.

But I'll allow that you could try to convince me.

Mitch

@JasperLoy well, I didn't care. It's not like Star Wars. Alien was great, and the rest were crap.

user174558

@Mitch I only care about those movies with beautiful women.

Mitch

12:54 AM

@KitZ.Fox No it was a direct challenge to your intellect.

>Albert Einstein is at a party and he’s surrounded by a small crowd of admirers. He introduces himself to the first member of the group, and asks, “What is your IQ?”
The man answers, “191.”
“Wonderful!” says Einstein. “We will talk about the Grand Unification Theory and the mysteries of the universe. We will have much to discuss!”
Albert then turns to a woman and asks, “What’s your IQ?”
She responds, “123.”
“Ah!” says Albert. “We can discuss politics and current affairs. We, too, have much to discuss!”

@JasperLoy with or about?

user174558

@Mitch About.

Kit Z. Fox

@Mitch funneh

user174558

@Mitch Somehow I don't like Star Wars.

user174558

My hair is growing back after shaving bald myself. I am deciding whether to go bald or not again.

user174558

I am very proud I did it all by myself, using scissors and a shaver.

user116848

1:00 AM

@Mitch At least where I live no English people are left. My parents tell me there used to be a few some decades ago.

user116848

Like 50-60 years ago. I dunno.

user116848

Or was it one of your humour response?

user116848

Well anyway.

user174558

It is 9 AM, good night!

user116848

G'night.

user174558

1:03 AM

poof

Mitch

@Arrowfar no, not meant as humor. In some colonies they stayed (US/Australia/NZ/SA etc) some they all seem to have left India, SIngapore, Nigeria (pace 'my face'). Maybe I'm being racist here, but I'm not counting the millions of people speaking a variety of English in those countries who aren't descendants of the colonizers.

Like I'm guessing the difference for French between Quebec and Haiti/Indochina/West Africa. But of course, all this is probably wrong in fact given @snailboat's reference.

Kit Z. Fox

@Mitch Basically the difference between dialect and pidgin/creole?

I don't know much about those things, but it seems interesting.

user116848

@Mitch Yeah okay. There are no descendants of colonizers here as far as I can tell.

user116848

Even if there were they all seem to have left.

user116848

Yep interesting stuff.

tchrist

1:26 AM

Now taking odds on when @Cerberus will be overcome by Smokey.

2

Kit Z. Fox

Still #7, after all these years. rests on laurels

Cerberus

When did it first speak?

We could draw curves.

I think mine will be roughly linear, a line rather than a curve.

Mitch

@KitZ.Fox That book should say more about the sociology, like who are the people speaking the English variety.

Kit Z. Fox

@Mitch I'm curious enough that I would consider buying it.

So I guess that was a good topic suggestion, @Mitch.

Mitch

@KitZ.Fox $40 for vol 1, 107 for vol 2!!

@KitZ.Fox Except it backfired. 'in my face'.

I thought I was right! hangs head in shame

There's still Jeopardy. I can still win at Jeopardy... in my head.

@Arrowfar Did Spain have any colonies where they were kicked out? Oh... all of South America. But any like India/Pakistan with respect to England?

Phillipines?

tchrist

1:44 AM

@Mitch The Spanish Sahara. The Spanish Netherlands.

Mitch

And Russia? THere's all sorts of Russians still living in Kazakhstan...but what about Uzbekistan etc?

tchrist

I don't think they’ve been kicked out of Russia.

Mitch

@tchrist Western Sahara? Do people live there at all? It just seems like a place to fight over than actually live.

tchrist

Spanish Sahara

Spanish Sahara (Spanish: Sáhara Español; Arabic: الصحراء الاسبانية‎ Al-Sahrā'a Al-Isbānīyah) was the name used for the modern territory of Western Sahara when it was occupied and ruled as a territory by Spain between 1884 and 1975. It had been one of the most recent acquisitions of the Spanish Empire, as well as one of its last remaining holdings, which had once extended from the Americas to the Philippines and East Asia. Spain gave up its Saharan possession following Moroccan demands and international pressure, mainly from United Nations resolutions regarding decolonisation. There was internal...

Mitch

@tchrist No I mean, did the ethnic Russians all leave. (like they are encouraged to do from the Baltics)

@tchrist But good point about the netherlands. @Cerberus, are there any natively speaking Spanish speakers there?

tchrist

1:50 AM

A slightly different puzzle is to locate the Ladino speakers.

That is, speakers of Judeo-Spanish.

That's the opposite of what you're looking for though. Maybe.

user116848

@Mitch I don't think English people were kicked out of here (where I live). Maybe my history is weak. But shit was brewing between countries so change was inevitable you know. Let me check Google... I suck at history.

Mitch

@Arrowfar I don't think they were told to leave. I think they left of their own accord.

user116848

Ah I see.

user116848

Yeah.

Mitch

But I don't know for certain. I'm guessing that if they were told to leave we would know about it (by some massacre or something)

@tchrist hmm... well, not reverse if you think of the Jews as colonizers so to speak.

like yiddish speakers in the former iron curtain

Cerberus

1:58 AM

@Mitch Well, there are native speaks of any language here.

But none that date back from Spanish rule.

That was almost half a millennium ago...

Nor even in Belgium, so far as I know.

user116848

@Mitch This quora post is interesting: quora.com/…

tchrist

@Cerberus That's what they say in the Indies.

Cerberus

About what?

tchrist

Spanish rule there from almost half a millennium ago.

Mitch

@Arrowfar interesting. I always superficially thought that it was because the British were just tired of it all. But 2 years after WWII is pretty fast.

@Cerberus actually to @tchrist's point, there are probably a lot of Ladino speakers there.

Cerberus

2:09 AM

@tchrist It began then, but it lasted longer, and there are still plenty of native speakers there.

Although their number is diminishing.

@Arrowfar Most of that sounds correct, but point 3 is vastly exaggerated.

No way was the Russian army more powerful than all of Europe's after the war.

It is true that Europe had been devastated, and its power had been reduced, but it was still huge, like now.

Not large enough, though, to suppress an all-out war of independence in India, probably.

Then again, they might not have been able to do so even before the war.

user116848

@Mitch Yeah, we got independence in 1947.

Cerberus

But consider what the Dutch did.

We sent armies to Indonesia to try and crush their independence movement. We committed horrible atrocities, a bit like what the Americans did in Vietnam. Maybe it was worse, maybe not.

That, too, was shortly after WW2.

So the British could have done that too.

Mitch

@Cerberus whose numbers are diminishing where?

Cerberus

The number of Spanish speakers in the East Indies.

The Philippines.

tchrist

The West Indies don't seem to see them dropping off.

Cerberus

2:15 AM

Indeed not; but those had been thinly populated.

Mitch

Dominican republic, Cuba,

Puerto Rico

Cerberus

And what native population there was was greatly reduced by germs, guns, and steel.

Etc.

Mitch

all thickly populated

oh.. ethnically? Yes, the original caribe and arawak indians

Cerberus

Are you comparing Cuban population density in 1492 to that of the Philippines around the same time?

Mitch

on the islands mostly died out.

Cerberus

2:17 AM

Because I am sure the latter were far, far more densely populated.

Mitch

@Cerberus uh...no. now.

Cerberus

I was trying to find reasons why Spanish culture was able to take a hold of Cuba but not of Mindanao, at least not strongly enough.

Mitch

actually density-wise in 1492... I'd have no preconceptions. I'd expect them all to be lightly settled area to area

@Cerberus oh...you're thinking faster than I am. also Spanish culture did not take hold on Mindanao?

Cerberus

I believe Asia was far more densely populated.

@Mitch It did to some degree, but not nearly as much as on Cuba.

Which is why the use of Spanish in the Philippines is diminishing.

So there are still native speakers of Spanish there dating back to Spanish colonization, but not that many.

Mitch

oh.

Cerberus

2:20 AM

And I wouldn't expect to find many anywhere else in Asia.

Mitch

many what elsewhere in asia?

spanish speakers?

Cerberus

Native speakers of Spanish dating back to Spanish colonization.

Mitch

There's the Conquistadores de Irkutskia

Cerberus

Portuguese, same story, probably.

Mitch

You didn't think of that did you.

Cerberus

2:22 AM

The Spanish went to Russia?

Indeed not.

user116848

So here English gets complicated for us because in schools they try to teach us British English (spellings, grammar etc. like "have got" vs "got" etc.) but when we go to colleges many teachers try to mold us according to American English.

user116848

At least it happened to me.

Cerberus

Really? Hmm that's odd.

Where were those teachers educated?

Mitch

@Cerberus Please. What kind of elementary school education did you have?

user116848

Yeah I'm saying that is all due to British influence from the past (mainly) @Cerberus.

Mitch

2:23 AM

The Russo-Spanish wars?

You're kidding right? You didn't study those?

user116848

@Cerberus Some here some in the States. Some in UK.

Mitch

@Arrowfar I bet it's the different systems, secondary vs university.

Cerberus

@Mitch Well, we did shoe-lace-tying? What else.

user116848

@Mitch Yeah exactly. That sort of thing.

Mitch

The university profs were probably more likely to go to an American university than British (just out of scale), but the secondary school system survived from British colonial times.

Cerberus

2:25 AM

@Arrowfar OK it is of course possible that people teach their pupils according to their own background.

Mitch

@Cerberus Whew. I was about to doubt that.

Cerberus

@Mitch Must have been too busy drawing rake people.

Mitch

@Cerberus industrial arts? LIke macaroni sculpture?

Cerberus

That I did at the dinner-table.

Mitch

@Cerberus ha ha. rake people. what is that?

Cerberus

2:26 AM

OMG you don't know rake people??

Mitch

@Cerberus no not as a performance art but as plastic art. you use dried macaroni (not cooked), and paste it to cardboard. mimicking the Mona Lisa or the Birth of Venus.

Cerberus

Mitch

@Cerberus Unless they're the people with rakes, no.

Cerberus

@Mitch Hmm I have not done that, could be fun?

Mitch

@Cerberus oh. kids can't count.

Cerberus

2:28 AM

Nor can they draw hands.

user116848

@Cerberus Yeah.

Mitch

@Cerberus no it's mind numbingly boring. keeps kids out of trouble though.

Cerberus

Hmm.

cornbread ninja 麵包忍者

@Cerberus lovely!

Mitch

unless they're shoplifting the macaroni. there's sort of a conflict of interest there.

user116848

2:29 AM

Howdy @cornbreadninja麵包忍者.

Cerberus

Thank you! But that was not my work.

But you are familiar with the rake hands, aren't you?

cornbread ninja 麵包忍者

@Arrowfar --------------------------------------> hi!

Mitch

@Cerberus so modest

user116848

Hey!

Cerberus

@Mitch NOU

cornbread ninja 麵包忍者

2:30 AM

@Cerberus actual rake hands?

Cerberus

Nah, the drawing style.

cornbread ninja 麵包忍者

Salad hands for autumn leaves?

Cerberus

Um what?

cornbread ninja 麵包忍者

Sure.

Mitch

@Cerberus I am! blushes

cornbread ninja 麵包忍者

2:31 AM

Cerberus

OK just checking.

@cornbreadninja麵包忍者 Ohh does that work well?

cornbread ninja 麵包忍者

@Cerberus yes!

Cerberus

Good! I'll keep it in mind.

cornbread ninja 麵包忍者

And to complete the explanation:

Mitch

@KitZ.Fox Yeah. Thanks for that. Weird though that it was sort of on topic.

@cornbreadninja麵包忍者 Wha?

cornbread ninja 麵包忍者

2:35 AM

4 mins ago, by cornbread ninja 麵包忍者

Salad hands for autumn leaves?

Mitch

BUt it was a very explanatory picture. How will we understand without that?

cornbread ninja 麵包忍者

The one boxing was huge.

salad hands ^

Mitch

I wish they were more like gloves

tchrist

2:55 AM

Mitchell Salad Hands.

Kit Z. Fox

3:25 AM

Wow. It is so quiet in here. Where is everybody?

I wonder why they call them boxing gloves rather than boxing mitts. Don't gloves imply that the fingers are separated, and mitts imply that they are not?

user174558

7:52 AM

@KitZ.Fox If you try to come here from now, I won't go to the Overlook Hotel anymore. Also, it's usually much quieter during the weekends.

SmokeDetector

8:49 AM

[ SmokeDetector ] Email in answer: Changing usage of past-perfect constructions in American and British usage by Vinicius on english.stackexchange.com

Matt E. Эллен

10:49 AM

@KitZ.Fox someone argued this about oven gloves, which I think are called oven mitts in the USA, so it seems like some arbitrary division has been made that people have duly ignored

Salad Fingers Full Series (1-10)

►

user174558

Kit Z Fox = K Z = Katherine Zeta Jones, QED.

Matt E. Эллен

OMG! You've uncovered the truth!

Kit is married to that old guy. Michael Douglas?

user174558

And Matt Ellen = Ellen = Ellen DeGeneres.

Matt E. Эллен

I have been unmasked for the lesbian I am

user174558

You like to keep the green monster? I prefer the blond picture.

Matt E. Эллен

10:55 AM

Yes

user174558

I think Prometheus is very nice. I look forward to its sequel in 2017.

Matt E. Эллен

interesting

user174558

@gigili Remember that time I asked if it was a sin to run for mod? I wasn't joking. I really didn't know. I do not make fun of people like that in chat.

Gigili

how should I know?

user174558

Because I am Jasper Loy. QED.

Transcript for

English Language & Usage: Multi-Layer…