English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

The other half are random not virtually, but really.

Ah, thank you, perfesser.

Actually random—I hadn't thought of that.

Well, you have to be really really Lames to think of that.

The mutes walk, the Lames talk, God's Kingdom is near.

Q: Is it correct to say "other alternatives"?

Is it within walking distance?

1

We often see people writing: I have other alternatives for you. Isn't it redundant to use the word "other" with alternatives as the word "alternative" itself implies other options or ways?

redundancy

Time to protect?

1:40 PM

@Robusto There'll be a golden ladder reaching down.

I think this one is going MC.

MC for Mass, Critical.

Are mods trained to take people to other rooms if the act up?

Questions must not wear protection. What kind of catholic are you?

@skillpatrol mods are trained in tae-kwon-dough and BSing-to-death.

There are no other things mods are trained in.

in The h Bar, 6 mins ago, by David Z

@skillpatrol and whoever else might be wondering: Yeah, we prefer not to have moderation actions picked apart and speculated on. If someone thinks the mods are acting inappropriately, you can contact the SE team.

Standard reply^

@skillpatrol That's virtually all we do here is pick apart and speculate on mod actions.

1:43 PM

My standard reply is "who's here?"

Much easier to remember.

@Robusto That's one of the reasons I like it here :-)

But it sure doesn't work outside this room.

I plan on buying 10 mod actions at 32 and selling at 35.

Bit mod?

Sorry, I do not understand that question, Dave.

@RegDwigнt works out math ... Hey can you buy me a hamburger?

1:48 PM

As in Bitcoin.

@Mitch Fry already speculated on a hamburger. Nothing good came out of it.

I think Zoidberg ended up eating it.

@skillpatrol yes, but what the hell is "Bitcoin mod"?

For that matter, what the hell is Bitcoin.

@RegDwigнt one who buys at 32 and sells at 35

In English, that's called a trader.

Not sure what language "Bitcoin mod" is supposed to be.

But nobody talks like that in English.

Also, Bitcoin's still a thing? Especially seeing how it never was a thing in the first place?

I'll rather speculate on mod actions, thank you.

1:55 PM

You were never a thing.

You're just an icon.

icon => coin . . . coincidence, or iconcidence?

You connoisseur.

Oh there's @Cerberus, I have fresh road signage for him.

Haha what the hell?

What circumstance could have possibly led to placing so many contradictory signs so close together?

And what country is that?

Italy.

2:09 PM

Ah, that explains it.

I was thinking Spain.

what is that supposed to mean?

What?

I like the subtle touch of putting the signs right in the middle of the sidewalk, so you can't actually drive a bike and walk there.

@Cerberus Can't make up their minds?

Well, they are technically correct. Look at the pavement.

2:10 PM

@RegDwigнt Italy?

It's interrupted by driveways.

right, the driveways

Exactly.

So you can walk and cycle, then you can't walk or cycle, then you can walk and cycle again.

makes sense now

Except you can't do anything anywhere because the signs are in the way.

@skillpatrol that's what the people said who put those signs up.

2:11 PM

@Robusto Come on now. There is a molehill at best.

> first there is a mountain, then there is no mountain, then there is

Yes, that's the typical behavior of a molehill.

@RegDwigнt I think it is a good idea to have he signs, because without, you bike would crash at every indent in the sidewalk.

@Mitch nah how do you mean that, there's no indents, all smooth.

2:13 PM

@RegDwigнt Hmm I see. A blue sign means you cannot cycle or walk anywhere on the road but there. But what does the crossed-oud sign mean? You can't walk or cycle here (would be absurd), or you are no longer forbidden from cycling or walking off the pavement here?

@Cerberus yes to all five.

OK crystal clear.

@RegDwigнt No son iguales.

Standard sign in all countries.

@Cerberus did you see the the question I pinged you with?

2:14 PM

Shared space for pedestrians and bicycles.

@RegDwigнt Meaning if you're going to kidnap little girls you are required to escape on a bicycle? Genius! All the pedophiles will be caught easily.

In fact that right there is the Dutch variant.

@Robusto ha! little do they know that after two yards they'll be stopped by a sign with a red line through it!

But honestly, that pedo is hardly likely to get very far. One of his legs is longer than the other.

Sigh. That is not his leg.

He will hobble away, easy prey to anyone with two normal-sized legs.

Also, how are they both able to float above the bicycle? I want to learn that trick.

2:16 PM

@skillpatrol Umm no?

@Robusto stop lying, no you don't.

@RegDwigнt OK but what does the crossed-out one mean? End of zone?

But the cow jumped over the moon.

Getting back to my earlier point.

@Cerberus oh come on, are you pulling my leg now?

No.

2:17 PM

Your whole country was built on these signs.

The last time I learned signs was in primary school.

You might not hear it if you're pinged, but how about if you are impinged?

And we never pay much attention to traffic signs in Amsterdam.

2 hours ago, by Danu

I've got a small question. Here it goes: In a set of lecture notes that I'm editing I've come across the following: "...to discuss Gauß's divergence theorem..."

@Cerberus Says the man with no car.

2:18 PM

Traffic lights, occasionally; but traffic signs?

Lekke band! Het zwarte fietsenplan.

2 hours ago, by Danu

Now, I was wondering whether Gauß's is correct or whether I should correct it to Gauß'

What's the difference between a sign and a signal? Besides the two letters, I mean.

@Robusto Yes, it really sucks to drive a car here. Too much traffic, streets too narrow.

@Cerberus News flash: it pretty much sucks to drive a car in any large urban area.

2:19 PM

@Cerberus I never learned signs. I just don't walk through the streets blindfolded, is all.

I cannot understand how there are people who do not know what signs mean.

Especially when the signs are self-explanatory.

Signs without words are cryptic. I mean, if the door in the back of the bar shows a stick figure in a dress, meaning women, and you are at the bar looking for women, isn't it natural you would enter? I mean, you're not looking for men, right?

@skillpatrol Ah. Well, both ways are possible. In general, if you pronouce -ses, write s's; if you pronounce -s, write -'s. The traditional way is Achilles's, Gauß's, etc.; but I believe Achilles', Gauß' has become more popular nowadays. But the rule that it should reflect your pronunciation is still widely agreed on, I believe.

terdon

Damn, @tchrist is really ubiquitous. I had no idea you'd written the "Csh considered harmful" essay.

There, in Denmark they add horses into the mix.

@Robusto But much more so in a non-bombed European city.

2:22 PM

@Cerberus thank you

@Cerberus So Amsterdam would have been better off for a little bombing, in retrospect?

For cars, certainly.

Or a little Haussmanning.

@RegDwigнt I like how they don't explain the signs.

But or city plan is still much the same as 400 years ago.

@Robusto Well. Four blue legs good, two red legs better.

2:23 PM

@Cerberus: OK, would it be Berlioz' Requiem or Berlioz's Requiem? Hurry, I am taking a test.

@Cerberus haha, as if 400 years ago your city had a plan. Hahaha.

He's using the term plan rather loosely.

@Robusto I would say -zes and spell -z's.

So would I.

Yet you see it the other way a lot.

I would say SNAFU and spell FUBAR.

2:24 PM

@RegDwigнt Not sure what you mean. It certainly had a plan, always had, at least since the 13-hundreds.

@RegDwigнt Hillary won't get that one.

@Cerberus Yes, and the plan, in its entirety, was "Let's build us a city right here."

@Cerberus Not sure what you mean. "So here is a house, and here we can shit because there's no house" is not much of a plan.

@Robusto Yeah, those people are either modernists or inconsistentists. If they pronounce it "Berlioz Requiem", they are the former; if not, the latter.

Laten we ons een stad bouwen hier.

Prachtig.

2:26 PM

@Robusto No, but the city government decided on the building of new neighbourhoods and their general layout.

@Robusto That sounds odd, but oddly it isn't wrong.

"Nonono, here be the place to shit on the ground, a little to the left" is not much of a plan, either.

Actually, I probably overstated the case. "Let's build some houses here by these other houses" is more likely what the plan was.

What do you know about the history of Amsterdam?

I know everything about the history of Amsterdam.

Outside the city walls, there was probably little planning.

2:27 PM

Good thing you asked.

And not every single house was planned, until ca. 1614.

But the canals and the main streets were certainly planned.

@Cerberus Much like the Dutch people.

@Cerberus Much unlike the Dutch people.

If you lay down a canal in the wrong place, the whole city will be flooded.

It had to be organised.

Which never happened to Amsterdam.

I'm sure it was very rare.

2:29 PM

I'm sure it was nowhere as rare as in most other places.

About rules.

Like literally, I can barely name any city I've visited that ever had a flood.

watervragen.nl/overstromingen-in-nederland

A list of major floods in Holland.

Well, that site froze my browser.

Only one happened in Amsterdam (I'm sure there is more that isn't on the list, but it was probably very rare, and never caused by messing up the canals).

@RegDwigнt Weird!

2:31 PM

@Cerberus oh yeah now it's suddenly "major" floods.

You know, by that token even less floods have ever happened elsewhere.

Relax. God promised Noah he wouldn't destroy the world next time by flood. So it's all good.

@RegDwigнt The site just says "floods", but I interpret it that way, because there must have been more floods.

Also, cowbell.

Cowbell?

It's a meme.

2:33 PM

@Cerberus vimeo.com/55624839

It's five minutes long. Do take the time. It's worth it.

Who got time fo dat?

:-)

@RegDwigнt That is so hard to listen to, with him coming in late on the cowbell all the time.

Yeah what's the deal with the sound.

It's off by a good quarter second.

Also, what's the deal with that video never just being on YouTube.

Always some vimeo crap.

> Österhjärta 1 year ago
Thank you! Every other version i've found online is of horrible quality.

Sic.

@RegDwigнt Okay, I have it open in a tab...

user121256

hi

2:43 PM

This was in 1916. But Amsterdam was not affected.

Hi!

user121256

I would really appreciate it if you answer here english.stackexchange.com/questions/278126/…

@Cerberus Hey, whatever happened with those cranes that capsized in your city?

@user121256 the difference between those is that between "do" and "have". Which do not mean the same thing at all.

I mean, I've heard of trainwrecks, but cranewrecks?

You've heard of them now.

2:47 PM

It took the Dutch to bring them to the world.

Or at least to our attention.

I guess @Cerb is still listening to cowbell.

Well, the very word "crane" is Dutch.

Because they somehow thought these things looked like birds.

That's what eating cheese will do to your brain.

Not to mention smoking pot.

Not to mention planning floods.

Hmm, I only have two of the three danger signals.

I think Walmart is currently running a have two, get one for free.

But what if I don't want to be Dutch?

Hm.

I think one solution would be to be an American, where at least you know you're free.

2:51 PM

But to be a true American I would have to buy a gun.

I've not tried it, though, so can't comment on the side effects with any confidence.

@Robusto It turned out that nobody had died, and hardly anybody was even wounded. The damage is being repaired, and the government is still investigating who should pay what. The construction company has already paid some people, as they know they will probably have to pay for most of the damage in the end. Presumably, they are insured.

@Robusto you don't need a gun as long as your 11-year old has two.

@Cerberus Must have been a mess getting it sorted out.

Probably.

It is a mess from any point of view...

2:53 PM

Wait, Mecca is the capital of Holland?

Well, yeah.

That is a mess.

No, in Mecca they don't need no cranes to cause havoc. They just start a rumor and 900 people get stampeded to death.

Mecca crane collapse

On 11 September 2015, a crawler crane toppled over onto the Masjid al-Haram, the Grand Mosque in Mecca, Saudi Arabia. 111 people were killed and 394 injured. The city was preparing for the Hajj pilgrimage. The victims were of twelve different nationalities, with the greatest contingents of fatalities being twenty-five Bangladeshis and twenty-three Egyptians. Of the injured, the most represented nationalities were 51 Pakistanis and 42 Indonesians. The accident has been cited as the deadliest crane collapse in modern history, with the previous most deadly incident being the collapse of a construction...

September 11th! Never forget!

@RegDwigнt Well, okay, confuse the issue with your "facts" . . .

I'm saying they didn't need the cranes for that.

2:54 PM

Yes I'm reading you fine.

What I am saying, however, is that there is a dangerous crane flu making the rounds, and the WHO doesn't do shit.

They only care about swines.

The swines.

I heard it through the grape swine.

user121256

3:10 PM

@RegDwigнt what about formality? are they informal?

3:30 PM

I thought the plural of swine was swine...

@RegDwigнt the signs are right before and right after a wheelchair accessible incline in the sidewalk. Way too many signs, but they're not totally meaningless.

4:42 PM

@RegDwigнt Lovely belly, that cowbell guy.

@Cerberus Guilty!!

@Cerberus It is. But you can use swines in jokes.

6:34 PM

We couldn't have asked for a better group of students to spend the next few months with. They came from a diverse range of backgrounds and genders - 69% identified as male, 31% identified as female.. So it's all about how you ~~identify~~ circumlocute now?

Me, I was born this way. What's your excuse?

Yeah.

PC crap.

If people want to become a woman, fine.

I'll call them women.

But what's the problem now with saying "women" instead of "people who identified as female"?

You're right: this goes beyond euphemism: it is more like mindless circumlocution.

7:25 PM

@Cerberus Yup.

I wonder, does it matter if I identify as female on Monday, Wednesday, and Friday, and as male the rest of the time?

Matter to God?

I'm sure she has more pressing matters to attend to.

Least of all to God. I mean if I were to go to their seminars and identify as female one day and male the next. Just to throw a spanner into the works, as the Brits would say.

Then they could never get an accurate count of who identifies as what.

Or they'd have to say something like 69.5 identified as male, 30.5 identified as female.

I mean, I might consider doing that if I didn't have to, you know, get up in drag. Pretty sure I look like shit in a dress.

Not that ~~women~~ persons who identify as female wear dresses much anymore, at least not to seminars.

@Cerberus Because the definition of "woman" is fraught whereas "identifies as female" is precise. For one thing, there are more choices for "identify as X" than just [male|female]

@Robusto Umm you are discriminating against people who are women but dress like men.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Example?

@Cerberus But I'm confused. I was born confused.

7:37 PM

@Cerberus Someone might identify as neither male nor female.

@Robusto I wonder what would happen if you arrived at the seminar dressed and behaving as you normally would, but declaring that you were female.

And does it really matter? Why even bring up who identifies as what, or what gender people are, or any of that?

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 So what? Then he is neither a man nor a woman.

@Robusto For intitulations.

And for policies that encourage organisations to have a certain number of women.

Or why not announce who is gay or straight or in an abusive relationship or into bondage or asexual but curious, or any of that?

@Cerberus So, for one thing, you shouldn't use "he" because it's wrong. For another thing, we don't have a strong vocabulary for describing people like this because historically we've taken a limited, binary view of things.

@Robusto Because there is a strong tradition of seminars and other such things including only white males.

7:40 PM

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Meh. Out of control, it is. I'd rather not address anybody at all if I can't use the trusty pronouns I grew up with.

@Robusto Use they then.

Fuck. That. Shit.

@Robusto Yes. Let's announce all of our most private secrets so that the organisation can have a PC policy.

@Cerberus That isn't what's happening and you know it.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 But how does that relate to calling people men/women/other?

7:42 PM

@Cerberus People get annoyed when you try to classify them as "other". It can be offensive. And especially in circumstances where you're trying to be mindful of non-binary genders, it's not appropriate.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 The thin end of the wedge. These things should be their business as little as possible.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Why is other offensive?

Neither, then?

Different?

@Cerberus Yes, it would be nice if that were the case, but the thing is that there is widespread institutionalized racism and sexism.

Thus, striving for more diversity is an actual goal.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Not in software development there isn't. I work for a company founded by ~~a woman~~ someone who identifies as female where most of the management is identifies as female. And it's like that all over.

@Robusto Lol. You're seriously trying to say that there isn't sexism in software?!

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 In my opinion, the end is noble, but situations such as this one show how it is a bad idea.

7:44 PM

I'm afraid there's tons of evidence that the software industry is dominated by men.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Not that I've seen.

@Robusto It is like what?

@Robusto Just look at the diversity reports that various companies have released recently. It tilts HEAVILY towards white men, especially in technical roles.

@Cerberus Situations such as what, exactly? Someone describing the demographics of a seminar using language they meant as inclusive?

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 That is more because there simply aren't enough ~~women~~ people who identify as female to fill those jobs.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 And stop calling people "white" and "male" . . . it's offensive. It's all about how you identify. Me, I identify as a black female.

@Robusto No, it isn't. It's a huge, systemic problem. Part of the problem is that women are weeded out of a hostile, toxic school system.

7:47 PM

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Situations where an organisation is involving itself in how people feel about their sex in various, private aspects.

@Robusto OMG we have so much in common! I identify as a black-and-white ~~dog~~ canine.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 You know what? You're right. The world sucks and I haven't done my part to rectify enough of that. I should be ashamed of myself. And there's an end on it. But this is between me and my confessor.

@Cerberus gender. And it's hardly private. Do you get upset every time you fill out a form and it asks you to tick off a box that says "M" or "F"?

@Cerberus We're not that far apart after all!

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 No, but that is only for addressing people. The best way is to ask this instead: "how may we address you? Mr/Ms".

@Robusto It is as though our tectonic plates had never shifted!

@Robusto Whatever.