English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

dressed so well?

oh no!

One: what people now call a "suit" is really quite informal

Huh?

Second: You do not go to dinner in the clothes you have worn all day

5:19 PM

What do you mean?

A suit means matching trousers and jacket.

Three: A gentleman will remove his jacket when seating to eat

@Cerberus: yes

@oerkelens Well, ideally, no, but, in practice, you usually can change immediately before dinner.

@oerkelens Never!

and possible a matching waist coat as well

Een man houdt zijn jasje an.

So many details...I let my valet worry about it.

5:21 PM

But still, that is tenue de ville

een man, ja. Maar een heer?

And tenue de ville is quite informal

It's what one wears to a night club as well

Some people take off their jackets, especially in an informal setting, but formal etiquette says you're not supposed to sit in your hemdsmouwen.

It depends :)

Nope!

Trust me.

If you wear no waist coat, it;s better to keep the jacket on

No, you must always keep in on if you want to be formally correct.

5:22 PM

But etiquette is mostly (in this case) about two simple things:

1) Don;'t show any fastenings, like buttons.

what's a hemds... thingy? a shirt uh cover?

In this case, it's just a simple, traditional rule: never take off your jacket.

or never eat?

2) keep your clothes out of harm's way

@Mitch Hemd = shirt; mouw = sleeve. You can show the front of your shirt in a formal setting, obviously, but never the sleeves, if you want to be formal.

5:24 PM

As in grammar: rules are guidelines, following them blindly is not th eway to go :)

wear a bib

There is little wrong with sleeves :)

We are talking about formal etiquette here, and the rule is clear here.

@Cerberus oh so you can wear one of those 'just sleeves' things to dinner?

A shirt is underwear. You're not supposed to show it according to formal etiquette.

5:25 PM

Actually, in formal attire like white collar, you insist you should sit on your tails?

@Mitch Umm wha?

It is an overcoat - some would argue you shouldn't even wear it inside :)

@Cerberus then why wear an undershirt?

@oerkelens Umm I just let them fall naturally, I guess. There's probably no specific rule about what to do with your tails when sitting down!

@oerkelens What is?

A jacket is not an overcoat.

Of course, I would advice most people to follow @Cerberus'rule. It is unlikely they wear a waist-coat - and they probably haven;t ironed their shirt. So better keep the jacket on :)

The tails in the white collar are originally the overcoat of the attire

Just with the front lapels removed

5:27 PM

@Mitch In formal wear, you wear a shirt and that's it. You have your waistcoat and your jacket and your overcoat if needed.

@Cerberus I would advice on wearing at least pants as well

@oerkelens Umm I do not believe that is true.

Trust me. A shirt, jacket and fish-net stockings tend to be seen as quite informal

Haha what?

Trust me

I tried

And I had a good excuse

5:29 PM

What are you talking about, dear fellow?

A bridge-club anniversary - the theme was "ongepast"

Haha.

I see.

Luckily, it happened before everyone was equipped with a mobile phone with camera

Quite ongepast indeed.

Then again - those rules are sometimes funny

5:30 PM

But, really, many people take off their jackets at some point during or after dinner, and I couldn't care less; but that is really not proper etiquette.

I remember being told by ten guys (online) that one should never wear white socks

I might even do it myself if it's really warm in the room.

One wedding picture of mine was enough to convince them otherwise :D

White socks belong on the tennis court.

oh?

5:31 PM

Once a guy came into the sauna wearing jeans

White sports socks do :)

Haha bad sauna etiquette?

mmmm

Jeans in a sauna. That seems like instant karma

Maybe white socks were OK in the 19th century...but they are now taboo.

we don't do etiquette but it was pretty wtf, he stayed and talked long after he started sweating. #legend

5:32 PM

Yeah bad idea!

So you want to insist that someone who wears a white suit with white shoes

has to wear black socks

Uhh...

?

#trap

I'm not sure I would recommend white shoes at all, unless you're an entertainer or a hipster or something: in that case, all bets are off. Then you are no longer concerned with etiquette and you are free to do whatever your art dictates!

5:34 PM

With a white suit?

black or brown shoes?

No, I don;t think so :)

Brown.

No.

Trust me

But a white suit sounds...colonial.

When would one ever wear a white suit here?

Of course, A white suit is not something appropriate in countries liek the Netherl;ands or the UK

Let's say a white linen suit in summer, then.

5:35 PM

I was in Greece

In full summer

Yeah, well, we're talking about Anglo-Dutch etiquette here. Different lands, different mores!

And it wasn;t even a linnen suit

never means never :)

Hey

No, no.

I never claimed to know anything about exotic cultures!

:)

I'm sure white peniskokers are 100 % A-OK.

5:36 PM

Not in Greece

Prolly not.

But I will hav eto look into it when I go to Indonesia next year :)

Ah, colonial etiquette...

I think that's different, sometimes.

I sometimes put on my T-shirt inside out when tired in the morning. Colleges have pointed out the mistake on a couple of occasions.

But then what is left of that anyway?

5:37 PM

Well - the peniskoker is not strictly colonial, is it?

@JohanLarsson Haha hilarious.

@oerkelens It is the opposite! But white suits in Indonedia are.

And short sleeves.

@JohanLarsson: Still better than being told you forgot it all together :P

And shorts.

And tropenhelmen.

still have not brought bathrobe to work, so-etiquette

Yes, yes, and yes :)

5:38 PM

(Whyever you need a tropenhelm in the tropics is beyond me, but anyway.)

I like to dress "local" - so indeed I will hav eto investigate the peniskokers

Oh, dear.

Do post a picture.

@Cerberus To protect you from falling coconuts!

If you are to visit New Guinea.

@oerkelens the manager for our depertment once pointed out I had a hole large enough for a tennis ball on the back :)

5:39 PM

Oh, d'oh.

@JohanLarsson Did it matter?

mmmm... am I actually being asked to post a picture of myself wearing a peniskoker?

@Cerberus no 95% of the function was still in place

@JohanLarsson: In that case: wear a jacket

trying to balance the fashion battle a bit (true stories)

Fashion changes, but style remains the same

So, out of interest

5:41 PM

@JohanLarsson Granted.

Where should I go if I want to wear jeans to the sauna?

Home?

8)7

Or 8)7, sure.

Whatever that means.

I do not have a sauna at home

5:42 PM

@oerkelens any sauna I'd say, maaybe it is more standard in exotic cultures but I don't thinks so.

sorry. 8)7 is a smiley hitting its own head with a hammer on some boards

Ahh.

%51

That's a smiley licking Martini off the back of a shark.

@JohanLarsson Somehow I have a problem combing "exotic cultures" with "sauna" ... most of the places I think of as exotic would call that a "beach":P

would you guys say you are interested in shopping? I have a negative interest in it.

Umm.

5:45 PM

Shopping? yeay!

I don't like spending money, and I don't like waiting.

I hate waiting

But I guess I kind of like getting something I like.

I love spending money

Tsk.

You're not Dutch.

5:45 PM

Blame it in Belgian education

I do!

It was actually freat when my mum was complaining to my wife about my father not being willing to go shopping

Great?

Then she asked my wife if she recognized any of that

I have no problem spending money if I feel the receiver deserves it. With clothes I have this idea that it all depends on people working under slave like conditions and a couple of white guys taking all the profit. I'm no fan of that.

5:46 PM

Honest answer from my better half: "No, he loves to go shopping!"

They didn;t talk for 6 months

@JohanLarsson That's true...then again, without your spending the poor guys don't get any money at all.

@oerkelens Oh, dear.

@Cerberus that's a tricky one

Yeah.

Well... one of the first things I did with my wife was follow a course in women's studies

Our politicians should force those companies to improve working conditions in poor countries. This is now slowly happening.

There was this recent contract clothes companies have been pressured into signing here.

@oerkelens So it worked.

5:48 PM

yeah, chances are it will become expensive there then and it will be more profitable to do it with robots here idk.

The thing is, the manufacturing is really not a huge part of the total costs.

@Cerberus Yes, although it was not what one might expect...

@Cerberus It should be

If you up the retail price for a pair of trousers by € 5, that means a Bangladeshi may get loads more money per hour.

How many trousers do they make per hour?

@Cerberus One thing that I think could work is having a neutral third party visiting factories uninvited and document the conditions. Then have pictures available where the clothes are sold. Same with groceries especially meat. Better the possibilities for people to vote with their money.

Yes, I think there are some initiatives with inspection and certification. Not sure how effective they are (yet).

5:51 PM

@Cerberus I'd guess it is pretty labour intensive

Still, it's not a huge part of the retail price.

prolly hard to be effective, huge companies means huge bs is my rule of thumb :)

There is the materials, the machines, maintenance, transportation, advertising, administration, and profits for all intermediate parties.

So what % do you think really goes to the workers?

It costs about € 2 or so to assemble a mobile phone, this is well known. If you have it done in America instead of China, total costs increase by only about € 1 or 2, I believe. Motorola did that.

< 1% (Just a guess with no data)

@Cerberus And all that would be next to nothing if they would be simply providing products to the local market at fair prices

5:53 PM

@JohanLarsson Could be. Maybe a bit more.

@oerkelens How do you mean?

Well, materials are locally grown around say, Bangladesh. (in the case of clothes). Machines? It's handicraft mostly. Transportation to local customers is 0 compared to shipping it to Europe and the US. Advertising budget could be cut to almost 0 locally. Intermediate parties disappear for local trade.

So it is really perfectly economically feasible to increase wages by 100 % for workers in poor countries, provided that we ban or punish companies that do not do this, in order to make sure they don't have to compete against companies that don't.

@Cerberus Actually, yes.

Except, nobody will want to enforce it

Well, nobody who could enforce it

@oerkelens Umm but how does the solve the problem? Those people there aren't the customers: we are.

Local people don;t wear clothes?

5:57 PM

@oerkelens I wouldn't say that, we're already working on it. It takes a while, it is a slow political process.

I do think that a lot of problems come from the fact that we are using cheap labour far away - forcing the local market to turn to expensive import

@oerkelens Not those clothes. The problem is based on the fact that clothes are made for Westerners, so I don't get why you ware talking about other people.

Expensive import?

So somebody who can sew together a Levi's 501 cannot make a salwar kameeze?

I don't think most people in Bangladesh wear expensive, imported clothes?

Yes, expensive import

Nopes

They wear cheap import

5:59 PM

They also make cheap clothes there.

or so they think

The intersting thing is that the development of local markets is happening

And there is a huge market for second-hand. Not sure how big.

and it will change the prices here

A completely different area, IT service industry.

How do you mean?

India is huge in that

6:00 PM

Sure.

But they can only remain cheap for a limited amount of time

Their salaries are rising with 10 to 15 %

per year

Until wages begin to rise all over the country.

Already?

Exactly

Yes

I thought India was not growing as fast as China.

And actually, a good Indian programmer get 4 times(!!!!) the Greek minimum wage at this moment

6:01 PM

But, sure, eventually there will be no more cheap labour anywhere.

are china growing much at the moment?

Yes.

Though not as much as before the crisis.

The nice thing is, that locally, India is going to need lots of good IT-people to handle the growing demands for banks, the energy companies, etc. Because the internal market is growing liek anything

@oerkelens That's a lot, but...I expect the large majority of IT personnel in India to not make a lot of money...yet.

ok i just have no idea, don't read any news, just read chat :)

6:02 PM

Haha.

We can be your database of information.

News.

:p

and you are and have been for more than a year

Yay!

You can be our database of Swedish etymologies.

@JohanLarsson: you have heard that there's something going on in Ukraine, right?

And our corpus, too!

6:04 PM

@oerkelens yea cerb told me

I never realised that visiting a chat room could bring such responsibilities

:D

Then that is what you have learned from Johan already.

@JohanLarsson sorry for interrupting your question in there pal

I survived.

congrats pal

nice to see you back

6:11 PM

Are you now covered in precious fabrics?

Like a rainbow.

Lovely.

I was wondering what that rustling was.

@cerberus Other than the Cambridge Grammar of the English Language, what other grammar book would you recommend me?

No idea!

Never used any.

Then where did you learn grammar?

6:13 PM

Except in high school, but you do not need that.

Partly in high school, party from reading and listening.

I dunno.

Style books as well.

6:24 PM

@skullpatrol in mats? np if so :)

@JohanLarsson Yep :)

@Cerberus Can you watch this in holland?

Videon kan bara ses i Sverige

ok :) @Robusto looks like those guys escaped the rat race

> Den här videon är tyvärr inte tillgänglig

6:27 PM

Which guys?

adocumentary about a brother and a sister 70 years old who have lived at their far all their life

What does mine say?

@Cerberus We are sorry but this video is not available

Ah OK.

@oerkelens Still loving with your wife?

6:28 PM

I managed to bypass the initial notice, but in the end it just wouldn't load the file.

@JohanLarsson farm?

@JohanLarsson That happens most often in Germany.

@JasperLoy I love her as well as I can :) The other love has now finally been reunited with her husband, after three months waiting for a visum.

I am very happy for her :)

Ahh that story.

@oerkelens This is a good ending for all 4 of you, I am very happy.

6:31 PM

I don;t know if it will ever end :) But yes, at the moment, things are good

@Robusto yes farm typo

@JasperLoy sry if I was out of line yesterday

@JohanLarsson I don't think you were, lol.

It can be a bitter-sweet memory forever?

@JasperLoy: thank a lot for asking :)

@Cerberus: They say "ït's better to have loved and lost than never to have loved at all."

I think I have yet to meet the love of my life...

6:35 PM

Well, exactly.

Just be careful when you think you do... :)

They speak some kind of strange (old) Norwegian that I can't understand a word of in the documentary.

Yeah, be careful what you wish for, lol.

Well, the only way not to feel pain is not to feel happiness either

I wish I could honestly say I feel blessed

It also depends on how we define pain and joy.

6:37 PM

But Since I don't manage to believe in any god, I can;t say that

Well, you still can use the word blessed.

well, if missing someone wouldn't hurt so much - would being with that person really be worth it?

@robusto It seems you have lost the habit of typing a dash after the ping, lol.

Wut

I am thinking whether amazon or barnesandnoble is better for books.

Is anyone aware of a book containing all of Charles Dickens' works?

6:54 PM

not a single book

ebay.com/bhp/complete-works-of-charles-dickens

@skullpatrol God, too expensive.

try the library

I want to buy it in this case. I will look for something cheaper.

There is one cheaper version with 30 volumes, lol.

Have you tried bookfinder.com?

@JasperLoy May I suggest, you finish the books you just bought first?

7:01 PM

@skullpatrol Yes, OK.

►

7:28 PM

Thanks @skullpatrol. :)

7:42 PM

@oerkelens You're very welcome :)

tchrist

11:03 PM

Sometimes, rms really annoys me. But then, who can say otherwise?

This is just a rehash of the whole “free software” demi-duplicity of Richard Stallman’s, which gave rise to Tim O’Reilly’s “open software” as a less-dishonest formulation for what boils down to virtually the same thing. Richard should have used something like unencumbered or unfettered, but he wanted to be cute, and perhaps even tricksy, so much so that it borders on being intentionally deceptive. Bottom line is that it confuses people, and this is bad. Tim used a nice simple little word, which works much better, and doesn’t make people think the wrong thing. — tchrist 4 mins ago