English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

So howsoever long it takes your ISP to do the requisite retry will be the first-time delay. Usually 10 minutes, but sometimes as lame as 2 hours with some.

sardonyx /ˈsɑ˞ːdənɪks/. Forms: ɑ. sardonyse, (sardony), 4-7 sardonix, (6 Sc. sardonice), 7- sardonyx, (7 pl. sardonyches); β. 4 sardenyk, 6 sardonique, 7 sardonic(k.

Etymology: a. L. sardonyx (pl. sardonyches), a. Gr. σαρδόνυξ (pl. σαρδόνυχες), app. f. σάρδ-ιος sardius, sard sb.[entry#1] + ὄνυξ onyx. The β forms are ad. the late L. sardonychus (late Gr. σαρδόνυχος); as this occurs only in apposition with lapis stone, it may perh. be an adj.

A variety of onyx or stratified chalcedony having white layers alternating with one or more strata of sard.

What gets me is that it is a thoroughly ancient term.

Cerberus

How do you mean?

Older than...?

tchrist

And I’m glad to see that its plural is a simple σαρδόνυχες, not some silly -inges word.

Cerberus

Why is that simple?

tchrist

@Cerberus It’s not a modern portmanteau in any way.

Cerberus

Oh, OK.

tchrist

2:21 AM

@Cerberus No chi to gamma.

More spiritual enlightenment.

Cerberus

You mean gamma to xi.

But is chi any "better"?

tchrist

Or something like that.

It’s the Latin -ynx borrowings that go weird.

David M

@tchrist OK, I'm clearly fucktarded. I cannot find your email.

Cerberus

How do you mean?

Latin sometimes uses the Greek stem, but makes up its own stem at other times.

tchrist

@DavidM Just add perl.com to my login, of course.

David M

2:24 AM

@tchrist Duh

tchrist

@Cerberus larynx, phalanx, pharynx, Sphinx, syrinx

David M

@tchrist Sent.

tchrist

k

David M

@tchrist Back when I was in medical school they actually had to have a day in anatomy class telling people: STOP PRONOUNCING IT LAR-NIX.

And, PHAR-NIX

Cerberus

@tchrist All gamma...

tchrist

2:27 AM

@Cerberus That’s what I was complaining about. The xi goes to gamma.

Cerberus

You know how that works, right? It's really simple.

tchrist

laryngal
laryngeal
laryngealist
laryngealization
laryngealized
laryngean
laryngectomic
laryngectomy
larynges
laryngic
laryngismal
laryngismus
laryngitic
laryngitis
laryngo-
laryngo-catarrh
laryngo-fissure
laryngography
laryngological
laryngologist
laryngology
laryngo-pharyngeal
laryngo-pharynx
laryngophone
laryngophony

laryngophthisical
laryngophthisis
laryngorrhoea
laryngoscope
laryngoscopic
laryngoscopical
laryngoscopically
laryngoscopist
laryngoscopy
laryngospasm
laryngostenosis
laryngostroboscopy

@Cerberus No.

Cerberus

Stem -gg- + nominative -s → -ggs → -gx in Greek → -nx in Latin.

tchrist

But the g comes back in Latin derivations.

Cerberus

Because -g[dorsal consonant] is pronounced -/ŋ[d.c.]/ in Greek, the gammar before such a consonant is transcribed as -n-.

tchrist

2:29 AM

@Cerberus oh

I would never have guessed that.

You know my Greek gammar isn’t especially strong.

Cerberus

So finger is pronounced just like -gg- in Greek.

tchrist

Rather than like singer, then.

Cerberus

Now, any dorsal consonant + -s becomes x, so both gamma and chi (and of course kappa).

@tchrist Yes, not like singer.

tchrist

Doctors sure have a lot of long Greek words.

I blame Galan.

Cerberus

When I am using separate letters, I'm using them as Latin letters. So x is /ks/.

tchrist

2:32 AM

@Cerberus Right.

Cerberus

OK.

tchrist

2:45 AM

Did you know that the variations in pronunciation of orthographic <x> in Spanish are probably the most diverse of all mappings? It’s usually the /ks/ you expect, but that /k/ is often dropped in which case the preceding vowel tends to open up/aspirate, like phonemic /e/ to <ɛ>. And there are old words or imports where Spain has respelled to orthographic <j> but Mexico (case in point) has not, so phonemic /x/ becomes <h>, <x>, or <χ>, or occasionally weirder things still, even <ʃ>.

David M

@tchrist It was my understanding that the <j> in Spanish is Arabic in origin

tchrist

@DavidM Complex.

David M

@tchrist Yes, I am oversimplifying.

tchrist

A leading j- is a good but not perfect predictor of Arabic origin.

David M

@tchrist Words like jarabe, yes. Joven, no.

I see what you mean

tchrist

2:48 AM

ajedrez, jinete but not jamón, jaca.

Jaca for pony is actually from English hack(ney)

David M

Neat! Thanks for that!

I speak Spanish and Italian fairly well. But, I'm not too up on linguistics. I've always been interested, but never studied it properly.

Any recs for a basic text?

tchrist

Also garrafa for carafe is ultimately of Arabic origin.

Maybe.

garrafa.
(Quizá del port. garrafa, botella, y este del ár. marroquí ḡerraf).
1. f. Vasija esférica, que remata en un cuello largo y estrecho y sirve para enfriar las bebidas, rodeándolas de hielo.
2. f. Vasija cilíndrica provista de una tapa con asa, que, dentro de una corchera, sirve para hacer helados.
3. f. Arg., Bol. y Ur. bombona (‖ vasija metálica).
~ corchera.
1. f. garrafa que se usa siempre dentro de una corchera proporcionada a sus dimensiones, con la que constituye un solo aparato.
de ~.

@DavidM No idea, really. Depends what you’re looking for. General linguistics and Romance philology aren’t really interchangeable.

David M

@tchrist Well, I find the discussions that go on in here fairly interesting but over my head.

I would assume I'd need to read a basic text of both to get started.

tchrist

@DavidM But territorially apropos; vide supra, a la derecha, for the room title.

David M

@tchrist Yes. Agreed.

It wasn't a complaint, to be certain. More of a lament.

Mitch

2:58 AM

@tchrist I blame Greek. If it weren't for them we wouldn't have all those pesky words.

tchrist

@Mitch Nor Western civilization.

Mitch

Exactly.

They ruined everything.

@tchrist also Spanx.

tchrist

No, spangolite is otherwise derived.

Mitch

@tchrist ooh I got one.. lynx.

tchrist

> 1828 Scott F.M. Perth xi, - ‘Can you play at spang-cockle, my lord?’ said the Prince, placing a nut on the second joint of his fore‐finger, and spinning it off by a smart application of the thumb.

Mitch

3:04 AM

and jynx

tchrist

@Mitch English doesn’t actually use lynges for that one.

Mitch

oh.... there's a hypothesis with this? I"m only superficially looking at the transcript.

tchrist

The Latin genus is lynx. If we needed a species name, then we’d have to resort to a -g- form.

Mitch

lyngatum?

tchrist

lynx /lɪŋks/. Forms: 4-5 lenx, 4-7 linx, 6-8 lynce, 6-7 lince, 4- lynx.

Etymology: a. L. lynx, lync-em (Sp., Pg., Ital. lince), a. Gr. λύγζ (genit. λυγκός), cogn. w. Lith. luszi-s, OHG. luhs (mod.G. luchs), OE. lox, Dutch los, Sw. lo. Prob. related to Gr. λεύσσειν to see, the animal being named from its quickness of sight.

1 An animal of any of several species of the genus Felis forming the sub-genus Lynx, having a tuft at the tip of the ear, usually a short tail, and the fur more or less spotted. The lynx of the ancients is the caracal. With qualifying words, as banded lynx L. fasciata, …

@Mitch Which is?

Oh, you’re looking for an adjective for the species. Remember that it must agree in gender and number with the genus.

There may be some out there; I don’t know.

Also, you fibbed about your age. You’re several years my senior, as I had always believed.

Mitch

3:08 AM

Ha ha. I'm much older at heart

how did I fib if you know it for real?

tchrist

Won’t tell.

Mitch

clever monkey

David M

@Mitch That's why it's a fib and not a lie.

tchrist

Oh, and jynx is an actual hit, but perhaps not the one you were thinking of.

jynx /dʒɪŋks/. Also 7 jyng. Pl. jynges /ˈdʒɪndʒɪz/.

Etymology: a. mod.L. jynx, pl. jynges, = L. iynx, a. Gr. ἴυγξ, pl. ἴυγγες the wryneck, a bird made use of in witchcraft; hence, a charm, a spell.

1 A bird, the wryneck (Jynx or Iynx torquilla); also called yunx.

2 transf. A charm or spell.

Mitch

@DavidM I have absolutely know idea what we're talking about.

David M

3:10 AM

Jygnes???

Mitch

Sign of my age.

Jenganata.

David M

Not jinxes?

tchrist

@DavidM That’s a verb.

Mitch

What? jinxes is that game you play

David M

@tchrist Yeah, but I've seen it adapted as a pl. noun.

tchrist

3:11 AM

They aren’t quite sure where jinx comes from. It might be from jynx sense 2.

David M

Jinx I thought was just a charm or spell.

tchrist

@DavidM The plural of jinx is always jinxes. But the plural of jynx can be jynges, yes.

Mitch

Oh. That jinx.

David M

Hence when you say the same at the same time, you are putting the spell on them.

@tchrist It's not just an archaic spelling?

tchrist

jinx /dʒɪŋks/. orig. U.S. Also ginks, jinks.

Etymology: app. f. jynx (def#2).

 A person or thing that brings bad luck or exercises evil influence; a hoodoo, a Jonah. Also attrib. and Comb

So jinx v. trans. (freq. pass.) to cast a spell on, to bring bad luck upon; jinxed ppl. a.

Mitch

3:13 AM

Oh. magic. I thought it was actually people following silly rules instead of actual magic.

tchrist

@DavidM No, it’s something else. Usually.

David M

@tchrist I'm confused. It says the etymology is jynx.

tchrist

It says “apparently”, yes. They’re hedging.

David M

Yeah. Wishy-washy etymologists . . .

tchrist

Note that their only citation for jynx sense 2 is: A. 1693 Urquhart Rabelais iii. i. 23 — These are the Philtres, Allurements, Jynges, Inveiglements [les philtres, iynges, et attraictz], Baits, and Enticements of Love.

Lequel me semble un peu dated.

David M

3:17 AM

@tchrist Oui, dated.

tchrist

Although I have some attraction for philtres, not to mention inveiglements and other dwimmercræft.

David M

@tchrist It all sounds like something an apothecary would be cooking up in a cauldron filled with eye of newt.

tchrist

Love Potion Number Nine.

David M

@tchrist 1-8 gave you a rash

Mitch

Take two tablespoons of crushed inveiglements before a meal.

And then the first person she sees she will fall immediately in love with.

tchrist

3:20 AM

@Mitch Which kind? Oat meal? Barley meal? Maize meal?

David M

@Mitch Yes . . . It's getting rid of her after you've had your fun that is the hard part.

Mitch

@tchrist rice porridge. more exotic that way

David M

@Mitch And flavorless

tchrist

@Mitch Ken ye the rhyme to porringer?

Mitch

@DavidM I read that 'herd' part and wasn't sure if I should be offended.

like corn or barley or oats are so savory?

tchrist

3:23 AM

Jan 4 '13 at 14:16, by tchrist

O what’s the rhyme to porringer?
Ken ye the rhyme to porringer?
King James the Seventh had ae dochter,
And he gave her to an Oranger.

Ken ye how she requited him?
Ken ye how she requited him?
The lad has into England come,
And ta’en the croon in spite of him.

Mitch

I read that in the New Yorker last year.

tchrist

Alternately...

Aug 25 '12 at 2:56, by tchrist

Ken ye the rhyme to porringer? ... And gave the Prince of Orange her.

David M

@Mitch Ha. As I frequently post on this site in comments. People who insist upon taking offense where none is proffered should be immediately put to death. (At least if they refuse to accept that it was accidental.)

tchrist

Or s/gave/gae/

Mitch

rhyme for orange.

tchrist

3:24 AM

But the “gave the Prince of Orange her” part is syntactically characteristic of Scots not of English.

Mitch

@DavidM you should do it the other way round.

David M

@Mitch Put them to death first?

Then see if they accept?

tchrist

@Mitch Ach, so ye must ken the grasshopper rime as well, aye?

Mitch

@DavidM Well, not what I meant but let's go with that.

tchrist

Jan 4 '13 at 14:13, by tchrist

Ken ye the rhyme to grasshopper?
Ken ye the rhyme to grasshopper?
A hempen rein, a horse o’ tree,
A psalm-book, and a Presbyter.

The Jacobites never give up.

David M

3:26 AM

@Mitch Works for me. It has a Clint Eastwood feel ...

Mitch

@tchrist argh, I used to know that one.

@tchrist wait, that doesn't rhyme!

Ever!

tchrist

@Mitch Doesn’t it? It’s an aural trick.

Roll the Scots /r/ and merge the written <a> and <e> into [æ], and let the unstressed vowels reduce to schwa. Nobody’ll notice.

Mitch

@DavidM What if you threaten violence against people who don't take offense where none was intended?

@tchrist works for Led Zeppelin

David M

@Mitch That just seems time consuming.

tchrist

@Mitch Hadn’t known them for Jacobites, me.

David M

3:31 AM

@Mitch Wouldn't I have to go around threatening violence for just about all normal conversation? People not taking offense and none being intended?

tchrist

Never take offence: good fences make good neighbours.

Mitch

@tchrist you'd be surprised

@DavidM exactly.

Cerberus

15

Q: Where did Spanish get its /x/? Arabic influence?

Most Romance languages don't have /x/ (like the j in hijo), nor did Latin. Where did Spanish /x/ come from? Internal development, Arabic influence, or something else? Since Moroccan Arabic also has /x/, one would suspect Arabic influence; but perhaps that is simplistic.

David M

@tchrist I'm always reminded of some poem that my HS English teacher read of the same title (Good fences make good neighbors).

tchrist

@Cerberus I said it was complicated.

@DavidM But the full joke requires British spelling, or it mismatches.

David M

3:34 AM

@tchrist True, true.

@tchrist Works aloud just fine.

tchrist

So you’re saying it’s an aural jape?

@Cerberus Upvoted sometime back in time immemorial.

David M

@tchrist That sounds painful . . .

tchrist

Or unmarmoreal.

@Cerberus You know, as a Dutchman, I bet you are thousand thousand times more likely to be able to spit out [ẽ̞ɴˈχut̪o̞] correctly than a native English-speaker.

David M

@tchrist I've said "Fuck 'em in the ear!" as a standard dismissive for years, though.

Cerberus

@tchrist Sure, /x/ is easy.

tchrist

3:42 AM

@Cerberus But phonemic /x/ becomes phonetic [χ] in that position. That’s the tough one for Americans.

Cerberus

I always forget what the difference is.

tchrist

Further back in your throat.

Cerberus

But whichever one we don't use is still not hard.

Mitch

I didn't know there was a difference.

tchrist

I thought you used them both.

Cerberus

3:43 AM

Maybe.

But! It's bed time.

David M

@tchrist Can you give an example for the less well-read (myself)?

Cerberus

Good night, gents.

David M

@Cerberus Good night.

tchrist

The phoneme /x/ in Spanish has two allophones: [x] and [χ]. with the latter occurring naturally when /x/ precedes /o/ or /u/. This [χ] is uvular, not velar as [x] is. So Don Quijote is [d̪õ̞ŋkiˈχo̞t̪e̞], enjuto is [ẽ̞ɴˈχuto̞], and the Asturian city of Gijón has both sounds: [xiˈχõ(ŋ)] — tchrist Feb 25 '12 at 7:07

Cerberus

Gracias.

David M

3:44 AM

@tchrist OK, I hear it now. Thanks!

Mitch

I turned up the volume..I still don't hear it.

tchrist

@Cerberus Night.

Fonología del español

:Este artículo sección cubre la fonología del idioma. Para un enfoque más general sobre el idioma, véase idioma español Sonidos y alófonos En lo que sigue diferenciaremos entre fonemas y alófonos. Un alófono es cualquier sonido segmental del habla cuya articulación implica generalmente del orden de una décima de segundo. Un alófono se caracteriza por la distribución de la energía sonora entre diferentes frecuencias. Por el contrario, un fonema no es una realidad sonora concreta sino una clase de equivalencia de sonidos de acuerdo a como se consideran en una lengua dada. Los alófonos pue...

David M

@tchrist In my layman's terms, Quijote holds onto the i sound into the h sound.

tchrist

@DavidM Actually, the <o> should open up the /x/ into an [χ], putting it back further in your throat because a back-vowel follows it, not a front-vowel.

David M

@tchrist I think I catch your drift.

tchrist

3:47 AM

That’s what it’s called retrograde assimilation: a later sound affects an earlier one.

David M

The other sound is more of the x in Mexico, yes?

tchrist

Yes, Mexico almost always just has [h].

Sometimes [x]. Never [χ] that I have heard.

David M

@tchrist Right, so it's pronounced the same as the beginning of Gijón

tchrist

@DavidM Yes. Or even breathier, like an English <h>, although not in the prestige dialect.

David M

@tchrist My accent in Spanish is a hodgepodge, so I cannot rely on that.

tchrist

3:51 AM

Mine is thoroughly Castilian. I have to really really work to put on another one, whereas the Castilian accent comes out unthinkingly.

David M

I've been told by native speakers that they cannot place where I'm from. I speak with a vaguely Spanish accent, but use the speech patterns of a Puerto Rican.

Castilian with traces of New York City.

tchrist

It’s also a matter of cisatlantic versus transatlantic intonation patterns. Well, the Islas Canarias aren’t either, but still.

Cisatlantic Spanish accents tend to vary more in pitch.

Just as UK English does compared with North American English.

David M

@tchrist True

tchrist

More singy-songy.

David M

I'm surprised I don't sound Argentinian given that I speak Italian, too. But, I guess I learned Italian significantly later.

tchrist

3:53 AM

Hugh Laurie always bitches about how flat and gravelly he has to make his English to deliver an American accent; he says it robs it of its “colour”. :)

@DavidM The rioplatense accent has other characteristics than the Italian intonation pattern.

David M

@tchrist Yeah. But, it is rather impressive. He NEVER bleeds through.

tchrist

He works tremendously hard at it. Says it is by far the very hardest thing he has ever done in his entire life.

David M

@tchrist Of course it does. But, I can/have seen it mistaken for Italian.

tchrist

As have I.

David M

Cary Elwes is probably the only other actor I've heard come close, and he's an order of magnitude lower.

tchrist

3:55 AM

Have you listened to Viggo Mortensen interviewed in Spanish? He has a rioplantense accent.

David M

He always sounds out of breath.

@tchrist No. I don't pay much attention to Spanish language media. Barely time for English language.

tchrist

When he plays in Spain-made films, he needs a dialect coach for his accent. :)

Let me find the Viggo interview. Really cool.

David M

@tchrist His name sounds like he would be Transylvanian . . .

tchrist

@DavidM Danish, I think.

David M

@tchrist It is.

It just strikes me as somehow Vlad the Impalerish.

tchrist

3:57 AM

►

I love his caballos. :)

David M

That classic South American ll, yup.

tchrist

He’s very understandable, and never mangles the Spanish at all. He really is quite fluent.

David M

The family moved to Venezuela, then Denmark, and eventually settled in Argentina, taking residency in the Argentine provinces of Córdoba, Chaco and Buenos Aires, where he attended primary school and acquired a fluent proficiency in Spanish, while his father managed chicken farms and ranches.[7]

From his wikipedia page

tchrist

That would do it.

David M

Yup

I understand him, but it takes tons of concentration for me. Unfortunately, my Spanish has largely compartmentalized into the areas I need daily. I speak a lot of medical Spanish. And, I can carry on a conversation. But, when I'm not engaged in the conversation, it is much harder for me.

tchrist

4:04 AM

Ah.

I even heard Papa Paco give a talk in Brazil in Portuguese which was quite understandable.

Yet another Argentine.

David M

@tchrist Popes are not chosen for their stupidity.

I'm not a christian, so I don't have a dog in that fight. But, he strikes me as a fairly intelligent and interesting man.

tchrist

No, for their pontificity.

David M

@tchrist Meaning, their semblance to a bridge. Of course . . .

tchrist

Exactly.

mais.uol.com.br/view/1575mnadmj5c/…

Hm.

Written transcription here if it helps.

I must go dream.

David M

His Portuguese is good. He doesn't have quite the marble mouth of the native speakers, but it's very good.

Good night!

Please send me the troll spotter script when you get a chance!

tchrist

4:10 AM

I will.

David M

Thanks! It was nice chatting with you.

tchrist

hasta

cornbread ninja 麵包忍者

@tchrist you seem pretty cocksure.

RegDwigнt

4:44 AM

@Cerberus oh come on now. I get it every other time now. We discussed. I get a 2048 every single time now. We discussed. I get to 128 simply by mashing buttons. We discussed. I even showed you my highscore of 66768, too, which requires a 4096 and a 2048 and some change. And now you go on and say things like "I do not know". That is a blatant conspiracy to mislead poor @Robusto.

Robusto

10:56 AM

@RegDwigнt He has been misleading me for some time now. So I had to find out for myself. FWIW, the game does get easier. I get to 2048 unless I have a brain cramp now. My 4096 was a thing of beauty. I folded up a whole two-row series of 16-16-32-64-128-256-512-1024. The problem is, when you get up into the stratified air of the 4096 you've already been playing for a long time, and you can have lapses of attention.

Johan Larsson

11:08 AM

why is it heard and not heared?

Robusto

12:30 PM

@JohanLarsson Because it's not a regular verb, despite the fact that you can see hear in heard. The OE verb was hēran (the macron signifying a vowel of greater length) and the past tense was herde. Note that heard in modern English is pronounced like herd in most dialects. (Some dialects do pronounce it like "heared" though, as if they believed it to be a regular verb.)

@tchrist: We've discussed this a little in the past, but I'd be interested to hear your views on the various parts the Denver area. Colorado seems like a patchwork of blue- and red-state demographies, and I would be looking for something in a more bluish area. Already you advised me to steer clear of Colorado Springs, but are there any enclaves (apart from Boulder, which looks like Cambridge West or Berkeley East from where I'm standing) you'd suggest as being good places to start looking?