English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

@Mitch An interesting point, and one I had to consider carefully. Basically a usage like this is wrong if I say it. It's wrong if Matt Ellen says it, or Barrie England. It's probably wrong if KitFox says it. It's correct for a tiny percentage of Americans, including my friend John. So, if one is a foreigner learning English, one WILL SOUND UNEDUCATED if one says it. Of course, that's one's prerogative; but probably not a prerogative that the person who asked the question wishes to

exercise.

user19161

@DavidWallace Well, in language, right and wrong are not well-defined. Something is considered right if enough people use it for a period of time long enough.

user19161

But what is right today could be wrong some years ago. Language is evolving. The only thing we can say is whether this is standard today or not according to real corpus data.

David Wallace

But if I'm a non-native-speaker trying to learn English, then I probably want to emulate native speakers, rather than trying to invent my own rules.

user19161

So when we answer questions here we try to answer with standard rules, knowing that our perception of what is standard or not is an imperfect one, as with all things in life.

user19161

@DavidWallace Right, I was just adding to the discussion and not agreeing or disagreeing with anyone. If I were to learn a language I would not try to emulate specific native speakers. I would get a formal book and read it from front to end first before doing that.

user19161

7:27 AM

Who can tell if this or that particular native speaker uses the standard form of that language in that particular instance?

David Wallace

@JasperLoy Why?

user19161

@DavidWallace Because a formal book is more likely to use standard rules based on many people's patterns, not the idiosyncrasies of a few individuals.

David Wallace

@JasperLoy Why?

user19161

@DavidWallace Well, I think that is self-explanatory!

David Wallace

@JasperLoy Why?

user19161

7:32 AM

@DavidWallace Books are written by people who have a deeper knowledge of the language based on their study. The information they have obtained are from more authoritative sources, sources that use real corpus data. Not just some specific people like I said.

David Wallace

So you're saying that the scholarliness of certain authors makes their idiosyncrasies less idiosyncratic than those of non-authors?

user19161

@DavidWallace No, I am saying that when people write books, they use sources of information that are more reliable and encompassing. For example, if I were to write a dictionary or a grammar book, I would need to use corpus data or consult other books that do so.

user19161

I would not write a book after talking to one or two native speakers.

David Wallace

I wish all authors were so conscientious!

Hey, look at english.stackexchange.com/questions/75296/….

Somebody got 65 rep for repeating what other people had already said!

user19161

@DavidWallace Well, JL decided to comment and not answer. If it is an answer, it is only right that Daniel posts it as an answer and acknowledges JL if he so wishes.

user19161

7:40 AM

The site should not be left with comments that are answers while the question remains tecnhnically unanswered.

David Wallace

Sure, but could he have made it community wiki?

It seems dishonest somehow.

user19161

It's not dishonest. He could very well know the stuff himself and wanted to write that, but JL for some weird reason did not. So he took the effort to post it properly as an answer, so he deserved the rep. QED/

user19161

BTW I answer you quickly here because I thought about this issue over 9000 years ago.

David Wallace

Yeah, I'm going to reserve my right to disagree with you for now.

user19161

Sure, it's OK to disagree. That's what makes the world colourful.

user19161

7:44 AM

The problem with the world is that many people are only aware of their perspectives and not others, and think that other perspectives are necessarily wrong.

user19161

I am quite sick and tired of lots of stupid rules in this world...

David Wallace

Umm, OK.

I'm going to disappear for a while. CU L8R.

Journeyman Geek

@DavidWallace: Its a pretty accepted thing on SE. OTOH, its considered good form (but not essential) to warn the commenter, and give him time to do it, and at least consider deleting the answer should the original source comment.

David Wallace

8:27 AM

@JourneymanGeek Humph!

David Wallace

8:41 AM

0

Q: Negative Numbers - What are they?

It seems a significant point was missed in the example of moving from one place to the next, then negating that move. Once I move, the move is done. I really can't negate it, can I? In other words, my 1st move was to somewhere, my 2nd move was back to where I began. I can't make any negative quat...

soft-question

David Wallace

8:55 AM

@Anuj - C is more like 40 years old!

jokerdino

10:11 AM

i am here now @JasperLoy

Matt Эллен

12:35 PM

Well. I missed some drama, eh?

jokerdino

Absolutely.

Matt Эллен

So I'm part of some communist regime now?

first I'm a little oligarch, now I'm a communist

how times change

Journeyman Geek

hands @MattЭллен a little red book, some ammo, and sends him up against the fascists for the glory of the motherland.

jokerdino

By letting this troll get attention, we are doing no one a favour.

Matt Эллен

indeed

@JourneymanGeek ok, but there's no guarantee I won't just sell the book and ammo for food...

Journeyman Geek

12:41 PM

ALL WE NEED IS LOVE FOR THE MOTHERLAND

Matt Эллен

Da da duh da da daaaa

Journeyman Geek

hm, I am apparently channeling the mad russian pilot character i've never actually used in an RPG ;p

Matt Эллен

congrats

I thought is was some über-patriotic Lennon

Journeyman Geek

lol

Last time i did that, two people nearly died laughing ;p

Matt Эллен

least said, soonest mended

MetaEd

12:48 PM

Morning, campers.

jokerdino

Good day.

user19161

1:48 PM

@jokerdino Nothing now. Anyway I don't think he is a troll. He is either a psychopath, a schizophrenic or someone very disturbed otherwise. I think we should just ignore him from now. He should seek help for his disturbances.

user19161

2:41 PM

Anyway, for some laughter now see this video. youtube.com/watch?v=JMJXvsCLu6s

jokerdino

2:54 PM

@JasperLoy Great. Whoever he is, he shouldn't get the attention he is seeking.

user19161

@jokerdino I would not call him an attention seeker. I think he is just disturbed and deserves our sympathy.

Matt Эллен

3:27 PM

@Cerberus I quite like it. It made me chuckle.